 Good evening and welcome to episode 400 of the Private Property Podcast. I'm your host, Usaman Doha Kumailu. It's the Wednesday edition of the Private Property Podcast and if you're joining us for the first time, welcome to the family. You're tuned into the only daily property show in South Africa, catering to your property needs. And to all our regular viewers, welcome to it. You know how we do every single weekday. You and I have an appointment at 7pm. We're always in conversation with the property expert who helps us with our property journey. And it doesn't matter where you are in your journey, whether you're looking to build, to buy, to sell, or of course looking to, you know, rent or you are attending yourself. This is a show that makes sure that you have the best information, tools and insights to make better property decisions. Now it is a milestone episode, 400 episodes into the show. I was actually having a conversation with somebody earlier saying, I don't know of a local podcast that has reached 400 episodes. I could be mistaken. There certainly isn't a property podcast on the continent that has 400 episodes. So certainly I'm quite excited for reaching that huge milestone. And of course, couldn't have done it without you at home. So thank you very much for walking this journey, always engaging us on our social media platforms and of course, sharing the love, making the property circle bigger and bigger. And talking about the social media platforms and the love that you keep sharing, you are of course aware of the incredible competition that we're running on our social media page on, particularly on the Facebook page where we're giving away 500 rounds in cash every single evening. And all you have to do to stand a chance of walking away with that cash prize is to tune into the show every single weekday. Make sure that you've commented on the pinned post on our Facebook page where we want to find out from you some of the great property insights advice that you've picked up while watching the show. And of course, any that you've also used. And if we call you there, we need to drop us a message in order to clean your prize. In the event that we don't have somebody who claims their prize while the show is live, we have a roll over to the following day. And that's precisely what happened yesterday. So we've got 1000 rounds in the money bag this evening. And I think I might actually add an additional prize. It's 400 episodes in. I hope the team doesn't kill me on this one. I think I might just add a prize. And the prize might be the property guide, a copy of the property guide, which is a book, of course, that private property has purchased. And all you need to do to stand a chance of walking away with that copy is of course, you know, say the comment or question this evening during this show, and we'll choose the lucky winner at the end of the show. That easy. I know the team didn't know about this. I hope that they do not kill me. I'll pick the lucky winner at the end of the show. So engage with us as much as possible on the Facebook page right now as you're watching the show. Send those comments as we are in conversation this evening on episode 400. Now, one of the other great things, of course, is that I'm never, ever, ever alone. It is a Wednesday, so late in the evening, you can catch Istie Carson on the first time homebuyer's show, which he's always in conversation with people who've not only walked that first time homebuying journey, but have gone on to grow their property portfolios from string to string. Every Tuesdays and Thursdays, you can catch him by Linoa got on the farming podcast, where she tackles all things agriculture. And every Monday's and Friday's child, Princey, the home shopper's show, where he takes you through incredible properties that you can find on www.privateproperty.co.z. Well, those are the great shows that you can look forward to every single weekday at 8 p.m. right here across private properties social media pages. And as usual, we will be announcing the lucky winner halfway through the show. But because it's episode 400, we're also going to give away the property guide. I know that the team doesn't know about this one. So all you have to do with that is of course ask a question this evening or send your comments. And I think one of the things that I want to probably find out from you as you send your comments is when was the first time you watched the show? You know, if you remember what the episode was about and perhaps some of the key things that you picked up from that we'll see which comments come out, which are great. And I'll choose a winner at the end of the show. But to kick start our conversation this evening, I'm very excited with it. It's a Wednesday. And so of course, we do have somebody from the Apsa Home Loans team. This evening, we're going to be looking at the impact, the importance and the impact of property investment. We talk about this, you know, so often. But of course, we want to look at why it's important, but also the fundamental impact that investing in property has not just for the investor, but also for the people who ultimately ultimately end up living there. And I'm joined by Miguel Martins as a portfolio head for investors at Apsa Home Loans, as well as Andrew Walco as the CEO of the South African Property Investors Network. So good evening and thank you so much for joining us this evening. Good evening and thank you, Zubber. It's always so great to have you, Miguel, on the show and you, South Andrew. And I want to start with you with this particular topic this evening. We talk about property investment a lot. And I think if I look at the COVID era period, you know, investing in properties kind of become a very, you know, fashionable invoke thing to the point where we sometimes perhaps don't quite understand when we talk about a property investor, who exactly are we talking about? You know, and I want us to start it there because there's still that age-old debate about, you know, are you invested in property if you only buy, if you've only, for instance, bought your primary residence and that's it. Or that's just, that's where you live and it's not just an investment. You haven't actually gone and put in any tenants in a cottage, for instance. So when we talk about, you know, a property investor, what exactly or who exactly are we referring to? And that's, and that's, and that's a great discussion point, Zama. So if you go through old Mr. Rich Dad, poor Dad Robert Kiyosaki, right, he'll say a property is an asset when you derive income from it, right? So property which you live in is not necessarily an asset, doesn't derive income, but a property that you rent out, that you renovate and sell, that you create value, that's an asset. So I guess my definition of a property investor is someone who takes a piece of property, whether it's an empty stand and put it in there and they bought the home in it, whether they take an existing home, renovate it and sell it on, whether they take an existing property, purchase it at a good price and then rent it on to a tenant. But as long as you're creating value and you're creating income from that transaction, from that deal, you are dealing with an asset and I think in my books, you're a property investor. And I want to, Andrew, you speak a bit about property investors and perhaps the temperament. I mean, you do hit up the SAP Property Investors Network. So work with and deal with and certainly come across a lot of property investors. Perhaps there are some common traits that you've certainly picked up over the years and perhaps some of the trends that you've picked up when it comes to property investors that you've worked with through SAPOV. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, looking back at the last two years with so much uncertainty in the property market in South Africa, what's going to happen to the property industry and with interest rates dropping, it's actually excited a lot of property investors and when you engage the investors and you ask them about the property market or you're positive or you're negative, most of them are positive. Most of them are like, you know what Andrew, there's never a good time to buy an interest rate now or the lowest they've been in a very, very long time. And what we see now with property investors, when they get the education, they start realizing there's different strategies, there's installment sale agreements, and that's one specific strategy that we see a lot of investors talking about because there are unfortunately a lot of individuals out there that are being squeezed, that are being pushed, that kind of fought to keep up with their bond payments. So one of the trends, if you said to me Andrew, what's the number one trend you're starting to see in the property market from a property investment point of view? What are investors talking about? I'd say number one is now becoming what we call installment sale agreements with the helping homeowners. And the second trend, but to be fair, it's been a trend for a very long time, is your student accommodation market? It's been a trend for a while, there's still a lot of positivity around that market. A lot of our investors within a separate community, even some of the beginners, but mostly the advanced investors are still going down the road of renting out to students. But overall Zama, we're seeing a lot of positivity, we see more membership growth grew by 26% in COVID. People are turning to property because regardless of the market and the economy, the reason I love property Zama is everyone needs a place to live, everyone will need a place to buy or a place to rent. You just need to understand what this property investment really means in terms of getting into the arena because it's not as easy as a lot of people think it is. And you know, Andrew, I like that you pointed out that it's not as easy as some people make it out to be. I always see red every time your property investors or people who call themselves property investors say it's easy, I was able to do it. The bear of entry is real and I think we must not lie about the difficulty of entering the property market regardless of whether you're going to do it yourself or use other people's money. There's quite a significant bit of work that you're going to have to do regardless. So making it seem as though it's a walk in the park is not a misrepresentation, especially also when you consider how much work is going to be ahead of you as you've now taken on that property investment, have to manage it, whether you're self-managing or of course you've been working with an agent. It's a full-time job in many ways. I think it depends how you go about working and managing it, but you certainly are going to have to do work. There's nothing passive about definitely not. The sooner we not only recognize that but certainly come to terms with that the easier for so many people. And talking about that, I'm seeing such a lot, I'm seeing quite a bit of love that we're getting on our Facebook page as many of you are tuned into the 400th episode of the private property park concert myself as I'm going to do more. It's a big episode number. We are going to do something special though towards the end, the last show that we're going to have. And I'm not going to spoil it and share anything. The team is working tirelessly behind the scenes to make sure that we pull off something that I know many of you at home are also going to absolutely enjoy. So do look out for that on our social media pages. I see Farana, Siddiqui, Abidah, Albert, Tain, happiness. Good evening to you, their happiness. And Farana Siddiqui also commenting. Remember earlier, I said I'm going to do a spot price giveaway. So in addition to the giveaway that we always have, we're going to do a spot price giveaway for episode 400. We're giving away a copy of the property guide and that is of course one that is published by private property. And all you have to do to send a chance to walk away with that is comment right now on this slide before the show ends. Share with us, you know, which episode was the first time, the first episode that you tuned into. If you even remember the topic, that would be fantastic. And you know what, what did you learn from that episode? I think based on your comments, we'll get out, choose one of the winners that the team, one of the names that the team sends and you'll be able to walk away with that book. Farana Siddiqui saying I'm here from episode 10. So right from the start I learned a lot and still learning every day. Thank you, private property. I still remember last year's big prize when two winners won $50,000 each. This show grows from strength to strength. Paulina N'Gorsi saying private property fine. First episode was when private property was running a competition, but we had to look for keys in searching properties, reading specific keywords. And that was of course the Sherlock Holmes competition that we ran last year. Also one that's a great award. We got recognition in the industry for that competition, which was quite fantastic. Sirithi and Washey saying lost count. That's how long I have been following. But I remember my first was on YouTube and now they're all the way on Facebook. Christina Dicharva saying I love property and one day I'll tell my story. I'll come with the testimony. And I absolutely love that Christina. I think some of the great testimonies we received. One of the last shows that we actually did late last year, somebody messaged us saying that they actually had bought five properties that year. And they were able to do so in that year from watching the episodes. And they were so grateful for the different episodes, the different insights, tools, advice that we're able to give on the show. So absolutely love hearing your testimonies of how the show has also impacted you and of course your property journey. I want us to take a quick break. See who the lucky winner of the daily competition that we're running. We've got 1,000 rands in the money bag. And of course you have to be watching a slide. You have to drop a message if your name is called out in order to claim the prize. And when we come back, we'll certainly go through more of your messages and of course continue conversation of the importance and the impact of property investment with Miguel Martins and Andrew Walker. Let's have a quick look at who this evening's winner is. And the lucky winner this evening is Spami. Spami, you are the lucky winner of the 1,000 rands that is in the money bag. I hope that they're watching and if you make sure that you drop us a message down here below in order to claim your prize. So 1,000 rands that's in the money bag. And of course we'll see later on the show if they have indeed been watching. Now it's good to know our conversation from Miguel with rather Miguel Martins from Apsa Home Loans. Miguel, I'm certainly keen to hear from you when we reflect on the year that was perhaps some of the trends that you've also picked up from investors and you work with investors quite a lot. Some wanting to of course get some access to capital from the bank, get home loans whether you're buying house or certainly buying a few apartments. What have been some of the trends that you've picked up and even the nature of the transactions that property investors are typically looking to finance. So Zama, what a year it's been, right? We started off the year in what was I think our second or third wave. Over December beaches were locked down. You couldn't buy alcohol. That's how we started off the year, right? And just when we thought the year was going to normalize, bang, we had riots and this was just one heck of a year, right? And in between all that, there was a lot more going on. One word that I can describe investors with is resilient. An investor looks for the deal that has the right numbers no matter what's happening in the environment, takes the environment into consideration but works with it. And as I spoke to various investors in the beginning of the year and also in the second half of the year, one thing that was common between both conversations and in two very different, almost economic environments in a way, at least market environments, was just looking forward doing the deal, finding value, growing their portfolios and just keeping on keeping on. And really, one thing I find about my job and these discussions with investors is the inspiration that comes from just that human factor of they have a dream, they have a passion and they got there and they make it happen. And that's really what I can attest to. In terms of the types of deals, I think all the strategies are out there where there's buy to let, flipping, so buy, renovate, sell. There are a lot of non-finance deals that Andrew spoken about. One of the investors that actually won a category at the Investor of the Year Awards was someone who was doing the rent-to-rent Airbnb strategy. So not even purchasing the property but still as an investor leveraging property, creating value. So if there's anything to leave with the audience tonight is that there are many strategies. It's about getting the education, understanding how to go about doing these strategies and then going out there and doing it and taking action, taking that step forward. And you know, Miguel, when we look at that, I think one of the things that's clear is that property investors certainly are resilient. They've been able to find different kinds of deals, even in places where some people wouldn't even look. They've been able to structure deals in different ways, whether you're using a store-man sale agreement, rent-to-rent, buy-to-rent, and even buy-to-flip. And I think some even use a combination of different strategies in their property portfolio as opposed to having one primary one. I'd be keen to hear from you on the fundamental impact that property investors also have overall on the economy. Because I think it's one thing, in many ways landlords have kind of gotten a bad reputation and with good reason. Because I think they certainly are quite a lot of not so great landlords out there and who are really in it will say purely for themselves and also don't necessarily give the best service. Because I think it's probably okay to be in it for yourself but you need to give quality service. But we have of course seen many landlords who don't do that and even used unlawful means to manage their tenants, unfortunately. But when we look at the impact that property investment fundamentally has on the economy, perhaps reflect for us a little bit on that impact. Because sometimes, and a lot of the people who want to show some of the property investors, they may not be able to actually see the threat and the ways that they actually do contribute to the bigger picture of things in the country. It's not understated, right? You're right. We look at property investors and landlords and there can be these negative perceptions. But at the end of the day, as a property investor, no matter which strategy you use, you're producing a product. You're providing a service and that service might be a temporary or long-term accommodation. That product might be a house that's been improved and now being sold back into the market. And at the end of the day, to be sustainable in this market and in any market, you need to keep producing your product and service at a high value at the right price point that addresses the needs of the market. And that's what takes you through the cycles, through the challenges. And if you're doing that as a property investor, again, if you're renting out rooms, if you're renting out apartments, that is your product. How are you enhancing your product with free Wi-Fi, managing any issues that need to be dealt with on the property, selling a house that's been renovated and sure it's been renovated to the right specs so that those buyers don't come back to you and possibly impact your name negatively if you haven't given them a good product? So really keeping that in mind and not just looking for the quick back is what will take investors through the cycle and through turbulent times. I think we may have lost Zama there. I think she's astringent connectivity. And I do apologize for that. I think one of the things is that we've certainly seen 400 episodes that we've been on is that every so often, the tech gremlins get the better of us. I was actually saying to my guests before, I'm currently on a load reduction schedule. So I know that it's probably the network kicking me out because every single time whenever we're going to have load shedding, that certainly does happen. But you still of course tune in to episode 400 of the private property podcast with myself as I'm going to do more in conversation with Miguel Martins and Andrew Walker looking at the importance and the impact of property investment this evening. And I want to bring you back in, Andrew, recently hosted the investor of the awards. Of course, Sapin hosted that. Perhaps tell us a little bit about it. I certainly want to have a quick chat about some of the great deals that a lot of investors brought up. And of course, later on Miguel will also share with us just as one of the judges, Aps's role. And certainly, of course, the impact that an award like that has when it comes to property investment as a whole. Yes, absolutely, Zama. And you know, we run over 180 events a year. And this investor of the year platform is by far our best event. And you know, Zama, it's a third year running, we're doing it right. The first time was 2018. I remember May, I put this event with the Bryson Country Club and I thought, you know, there's no platform in South Africa right now that recognizes social property entrepreneurs. And if you think about it, investors go out and they take a risk. Investors have challenges. Investors get let down. Investors do struggle. And I thought to myself, as a property investor myself, I really wanted to put a platform together that recognizes all property investors in South Africa. And our last investor of the year where you were a great host was the 18th of November at Melrose Arch. And unfortunately, I couldn't be there, Zama, I felt sick on the day. Can you believe it? But the show goes on. You and Kelly did a great job. And the awesome thing about this platform is that there's different categories. There's the beginner category. So it doesn't matter if you're a first time investor buying your very first investment property, there's a place in this room for you. Or perhaps you're an investor jumping out of residential, doing developments and the big leagues. Or it could be that like Miguel said, you're an innovative investor. You're running the red to red strategy and applying an Airbnb strategy on top of that. So we saw there was such a diverse amount of property deals from buy to let to Airbnb, to rent to rent, to development, to student accommodation. We almost had every type of property strategy you can have in the room. From people who started out in 2020 to people who have been investing for 10 or 15 years. And what we get out of this evening is hope. Regardless of COVID, regardless of what's been happening around the world in South Africa, South Africans, we're resilient as property investors and nothing is going to stop us. All we have to do is take into consideration the market, maybe be a bit more conservative when you run our numbers, but invest of the year bringing Epsom Bank on board, private property on board, Taft, Tull Africa, all the partners, all the giants in the property industry back into this great competition. And Zama, you were there, Miguel, you were there. I was there virtually. It was a fantastic event. And it just brought, you know, for 2021 and just brought that excitement and that hope that everyone can become a property investor if they just know how and where to start. And Miguel, I want to bring you in. I mean, you are one of the judges absolutely being one of the partners for the awards. Perhaps tell us, you know, why this particular awards? You know, what is it about this particular event and certainly partnering with SAPIN? Because I know that, you know, beyond the award, there's also other work that, you know, SAPIN does with SAPIN. Perhaps tell us why SAPIN and the values that absolutely does seen a partnership of this nature. Well, thanks, Zama. So we've been with, we've been a partner of SAPIN since 2019. So it's again, a solid three years. And we really appreciate the platform that that SAPIN allows us to speak to investors, to share our ideas and then to get their ideas to us and really let us know what they need. So that's really the benefit of working with SAPIN is that we're able to get on the platform with investors and exchange ideas. As to the Invest of the Year awards, well, APSA, Homelines has the aspiration of housing a nation and shaping the industry in a meaningful way. And we're always looking for opportunities in the various parts of the ecosystem that is mortgage lending and properties in South Africa to do that. So the Invest of the Year awards in an amazing way, it shines a light on those individuals who are willing to be brave, bold and tenacious in the face of an ever-changing property and economic environment. As I was saying earlier on, this year has been one hell of a year. And to see these investors come up and present their strategies and their successes this year was amazing. I think, Andrew, there were 80 applicants altogether of which 12 made it to the finals. And really to see some investors come who are employed, able to put the deal together, of course, having the skills and knowledge that they get through being part of SAPIN's network. But put that deal together and ultimately have ownership of a two-million-ran property is amazing. And I think, as Andrew said, this provides our youngsters hope. This provides investors out there who think that they can't get financing, that they can't break into this market. They actually can. And if they look at the stories of these finalists and if they're inspired by the grit and passion that those finalists showed us, I think really the sky is the limit when it comes to property investment and all things property in South Africa. Going to more of your questions and comments this evening, of course, asked you which was the first episode that you watched of the episode of the podcast rather as we celebrate 400 episodes in the highest number of episodes for any property podcast in the country. So it's quite a huge feat that we are proud of. It's something I would be saying. My first episode was the very first episode that private property broadcasted online. The one that stood out the most in those earlier episodes was the five mistakes that first-time home buyers should avoid. Very important episode as I am a first-time home buyer and needed guidelines on things to avoid when pursuing this journey. And all happiness Maloula gets saying I started to watch private property 2020 November where there was forms of groups playing against one another and they were talking about how to go about running different stockfiles and how to join it. And I've learned a lot of them from the show rather. I've joined from Facebook to Instagram, Twitter and I've joined TikTok this year. Love it. Absolutely love that. Well, of course, across different social media platforms, so do make sure that you follow us there. There's different kinds of content that you're able to get across the board. Now, gentlemen, as we wrap up any final tips for viewers at home who are looking to firstly, either go into private investment or secondly, those who are already property investors for 2022. Andrew, I'll start with you. So those who are looking to go in and those who are already there, any tips and insights for the new year? Yeah, sure. So I think if you're going to be getting into the property market in 2022, it's very important that you understand what you're trying to achieve in property and where you want to start. And regardless, if you want to get into the bike to let market or students accommodation, interest rates is only one way interest rates are going and that's up. So when you run your numbers, don't go run your numbers on prime. Interest rates make it back to 9, 10 percent. Yes, and it will take a few years to get there. And I haven't got a mirror ball, but my view is over the next few years, interest rates will be going up. So don't run your numbers based on prime, prime plus three, prime plus four, rather be safe than sorry and just make sure that you know what you're getting yourself into. What are the risks? And that is what the asset property investors network is all about, but giving you that education to show you what the journey looks like and should you get into flipping bar to let Airbnb. There's a lot of different options out there for you. So start with investing in yourself, making sure you understand what you're getting into knowing interest rates will be going up and be patient. Don't rush it. Don't try to go about 10 poppies in one month. Spend more time on yourself, planning yourself, understanding one of the investors that won the most growth. I'm going to share this with you, Tarek. Tarek took ages to get going. Tarek took, he had like 25 coaching sessions, attended events for I don't know how long, but once he got it, he bought a property every few months. And that just showed me, you've got to be patient. So that's my last remark. And thank you, Zama. Thank you very much there, Andrew. And regarding your end, any tips, insights, or views and words, or either A, you're looking to start the property investment journey or and rather not even or and of course, secondly, those who are really property investors for the new year. Great, Zama. So for aspiring investors, is not invest in yourself. Get your skills up, get your get your knowledge up. Look, look, look up. So if you can property investors network with Andrew, get on to their webinars and on to the events. There's plenty of resources on YouTube, plenty of great books to read. Get to know other investors. So just really invest in yourself first before you go and spend one round on a property deal. But then when you do take action, because very, very often we circle and circle and do analysis and and and and and like a Teran's story Andrew shared, you know, that's great. But at some point you've got to take action at the right time. And then for existing existing property investors, I think if if you're a new property investor, having started in the last 12 to 18 months, you came into a market that was low interest rates. So keep an eye on where those interest rates could go. Keep keep a level head to build a build a build a bit of a stock pile in terms of savings. Just in case we do hit any curveballs ahead. But but look forward and keep taking action. Keep keep on growing. Keep keep on building it for portfolio. Focus on your why and focus on what inspires you. And I think that's such a great note to to leave on, you know, focus on the why is very important. Because property is has a lot of ups. But it also certainly does have a lot of downs that when you even deal in with tenants dealing with admin having to deal with you know, renovations, a lot of things that can go wrong and understanding why you want to get started is always so crucial. Final comment here coming through from Sirifi, William Wachain saying we can start drinking every day. Cheers to 200 episodes and beyond. Thank you very much. That's Sirifi. Andrew McGill, it's been such a pleasure to have you with us. And thank you very much for joining us this evening. It's always so great to have you both on the show. Thank you. Thank you so much for having us. I think having been on a couple of these shows this year to an absolute pleasure talking property with you and Andrew to your team at the South African Property Investors Network. Thanks for being great partners and doing what you do for property investors in South Africa. Thank you guys. Likewise. Thank you very much. And it's such a pleasure to be here, Miguel. I think we already know we're going to be having you back on the show in the new year and we're looking excited for that. And that's how we're going to wrap up the Wednesday edition of the Private Property Podcast with myself as Amadouma Pumalo, episode 400 done and dusted. And now, of course, we set our sights for episode 500 and beyond. Unfortunately, Spami was not watching us and did not claim that prize live. And so we've got another rule over tomorrow evening, a thousand five hundred rounds is going to be up for grabs. Well, and I did say that I'm going to give away a spot prize that is the copy of the property guide that is published by Private Property to celebrate and certainly mark our 400th episode. And the team has sent through some of the great comments that you have sent through. And the winner that I'm going to pick this evening is going to be Uttarpo Mhubudi, who was watching from one of the earlier shows. I read his comment earlier on this evening. So congratulations to Uttarpo. You're going to walk away with the copy of the property guide. Somebody in the team will certainly make sure that you get it. Do in the meantime, slide into our DMs on Facebook so that we can get your details and make sure that you get that copy. Thank you very much at home for tuning into episode 400. We're very, very excited for the last couple of shows that we're going to be doing this year. And especially there's one that we're planning and that we're really, really looking forward to pulling off later on in the month. And you're going to absolutely love it. So do stay tuned and certainly keep your eyes glued to our social media pages. From myself, I'm Andorra and the rest of the Private Property podcast team. That's it from us this evening. I'll be back on the streets tomorrow at 7pm. Of course, do stay tuned for Estee Carson on the first time home bar show at the HPM. Until then, hope you stay home and stay safe.