 So, thank you everybody for being here, depending on where you are quite early in the morning for me. I think this is going to be a great session. Welcome everybody. Thank you for being here today. I'm David Ivene, part of the Empowering Temporary Foreign Workers during COVID-19 team. I'll be moderating today's session. But before we get too far in, I would like to acknowledge that we are meeting today on the traditional territories of the Indigenous people across Turtle Island. We thank them for allowing us to meet and learn together on their territories. The original caretakers of this land of which we stand, I acknowledge the traditional territory of many nations, including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinaabeg, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee, and the Wendat peoples where I am right now. To all that was here for thousands of years before us across Turtle Island, we honor the struggles and the lives of those who gave themselves for it. For all those here today, we acknowledge the ancestors beneath our feet and the land on which we stand. With our ears to the ground, we can hear them, the Cree Nation, the Metis, the Denei, the Anishinaabe, the Dakota and Locota nations, the Inuit, the Blackfoot, the Inu, and all of the nations that came before us, and those yet to become. An infinity of footsteps of those who long called this land home, the unfolding of bundles, the undoing of colonization, and the opening of this land to allow treaty to come alive. We affirm our relationship to this land. Once again, I acknowledge the traditional territory of many nations, including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinaabeg, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee, and the Wendat peoples where I am right now. A few technical notes as we start in. In those disturbances at a low, we ask that you remain muted until called upon during the Q&A or discussion. The chat feature, however, is available throughout the presentation for you to engage, feel free to introduce yourselves, where you hail from. And during the Q&A slash discussion time, I will be reading questions from the chat into the session. That chat function will be a sort of vital part of keeping this discussion going. We are going to be recording this session, so you are free to ask questions with your camera off if you would like to not be part of the video recording. Similarly, if you do not wish to be in the audio recording, again, you can put your questions in the chat and I'll be reading them into the session. The recording of this webinar will be translated into Spanish and be made available to disseminate further. The Spanish version of the tip line webinar from last month is available on the ETFW website. I have the link in the chat there. And while we're talking about ETFW webinars, I have the link to register for our November 17 webinar here. And I will be reposting these later on as well. The webinar on the 17th is about our airport support services, both Kairos' airport support services, but also the support services in the airports for temporary foreign workers available in western Canada as well. We have members of the ETFW team here today. So we have Connie, Nitos, and Essel, and Jaylin, I believe as well. And we have Shannon here from Kairos. So this is the team from that is supporting the empowering temporary foreign workers program and we are happy to be presenting this webinar today. As we move into the session, this webinar will focus on the open work permit for vulnerable workers examining the purpose of the open work permit itself. The process of application for the permit, the evidence needed to apply and support supports available to workers through that process. Our guest speakers, many of whom are partners in the ETFW project, will also talk about their experiences engaging with the program. We had hoped to have representatives from immigration refugees and citizenship Canada available. Unfortunately, they were unable to send anyone. However, throughout the session, I will be taking notes of important questions and concerns to bring forward to you IRCC and Service Canada. In hopes of continuing a conversation about the OWP program and any gaps and challenges experienced using it. To move into our first speaker today, who is going to walk through the open work permit program. Francine Munoz has been working at the Windsor Essex bilingual legal clinic for 13 years as community legal worker. She speaks Spanish and has a law degree and a master's degree in administrative law from her home country Columbia. Studied the paralegal and the language interpreter program at St. Clair College and is currently a candidate awaiting her call to the bar of Ontario. Since January 2017 she has successfully led the International Workers Program and the Spanish speaking clients program at the legal clinic in Windsor Essex County. Francie is a high profile advocate for international workers safety education and wellness in Windsor Essex. Thank you for agreeing to speak with us today Francie. Thank you for the introduction. It was too much. Thank you so much. Thanks. Good morning everybody. I'm having some trouble hearing here this webinar that I'm supposed to be watching. Is everything okay? You can go ahead Francie. Okay yeah I say good morning everybody. Thank you for the invitation to participate in this webinar. The bilingual legal clinic in Windsor Essex is a no-profit community clinic. We are funded by legal in Ontario and we serve people with low incomes living in the region in Windsor and Essex County. We deal with many matters employment law, immigration law, housing law, social benefits, small claims score, just a few of them. I'm going to talk today about the legal requirements to apply for an open work permit for vulnerable workers. So we are going to start. Next slide. Thank you. So this presentation doesn't replace the immigration and refugee protection act and its regulations and should not be used as a legal advice. It's just for general information. No solicitor client relationship arise as a result of access into this presentation. For information and advice, particular to your situation, you should seek legal advice from an experienced lawyer in your jurisdiction. Next week. Thank you. So there are two kinds of work permits in Canada. When is the employer specific work permit or is calling also the closed work permit. There are specific work permits that allow workers to work accordingly to the conditions of their work permits. So workers can only work for an specific employer for a specific period of time and for a specific occupation and for a specific location. So everything is inside. The workers can check the work permit and see what are the requirements and conditions that are applicable for them. Workers cannot apply for to extend their work permit under the seasonal agricultural work program. So if the employer, for example, they want to hire the worker, those workers must go back to their countries before they can apply for another worker. Under the agricultural scheme, the other scheme workers cannot apply for an extension. If workers want to change job or employers, they must apply for a new work permit from inside Canada. So to change the employers, workers must apply to change the conditions of the work permit and the employer must give workers a new job offer letter, a new LMI number and a new contract signed by the worker and the future employer. There is also in Canada, another option available recently for the workers is the International Experience Canada is a particular category. The work permit, if they, if Joseph is, if they are working for the same employer at the same location, and the job to this one change. So people under this close work permit can be eligible for a work permit under one or more of International Experience Canadian, only if it's a foreign job, if it's eligible, if it's between 18 and 35 years old. You can also provide with the IEC pool and you, for example, you have received invitation to apply for this project, for this program, sorry, or for example, if this part of the international mobile program. This is the another, it's a different option, it's a new option available recently. So there is another category and another kind of work permit is the open work permit. The open work permit allows workers to work for any employee in Canada, and generally people who obtain an open work permit have some other type of status, for example, those that are coming to Canada and they are protected person or they pass the fear, first state of approval of the humanitarian and compassion and grounds or their refugee claimants or permanent residents or citizens. They have an open work permit. With an open work permit, a workers can extend or change the conditions of the work permit, obviously they have to apply. The work permit is just a permit is it doesn't confer any temporary residence status is just a permit. Next one please. Thank you. And the open work permit for one hour workers, it is going to start in June for 2019 and section 207 point one of the IR IR PR gates, the IRCC the authority to issue a the open work permit for temporary workers, or those workers are holding an specific work permit and are experiencing any kind of abuse or who are in risk of abuse. In the context of the employee they can apply for for this kind of category or program of open work permit for one hour workers. So my name working in Canada, and so many those who are experienced views or who are in risk of abuse in the context of their employment in Canada, they may be eligible to receive an open work permit that is sent from the labor marketing back assessment LMI process. Next one please. So we are going to talk about the requirements what are the requirements to apply for an open work permit for vulnerable workers. So, then the worker has to be in Canada must be in Canada working here. So the requirements for a worker must hold a valid employer specific work permit or have submitted a work permit extension application for the same employer, and is currently in Canada under an employer status. What is the employer status. That's mean the temporary for a worker is concluded from applying in the individual. The individual has already lost the status, but they still have 90 days for restoration for restoration of the period. So if they just have some doesn't mean they don't have them. They have to finish the the work permit finish that mean he is fire and they have 90 days to apply for restoration of that work permit. That's fine what is restoration, restoration means that this there is a period is 90 days periods when the worker can find a job. A show the of the letter of employment show the LMI I and in that period just get and apply the the the worker. The temporary for a worker also has to be experienced. You can work on this very and there is a question that we are going to answer now or later. If you, if you can speak to it. You can you're free to answer it, we can also save it for the question and answer period depending on what you're looking for. Um, it has to be for the, I mean, if the employer just has a work permit and the work permit expired and they need to apply, obviously had they need to apply before at least one month before for send the application. But if the worker. It's just a period of time so the workers expire the work permit they apply, and they can no return why because it is implied in a status is 90 days a day that the immigration offices gave to the workers to restore this their status. What the status means is they have to apply before expire before the spire the work permit, and they have 90 days to get the formal requirements and get the, you know, the, the LMI I, the offer of employment, sign the contract, as soon as they have that, they can just restore the status and start working so it has to be before they have the work permit expired. And what is the other requirement for the apply is the temporary worker in has been experienced abuse on risk of experience abuse in the context of the employee. The second slide. Next one please. Thank you. So this is the eligibility so to be eligible workers must be in status had a valid open work permit that require the LMI I think I mentioned before they have to have a valid work permit, or they have a valid close work work permit at this extent of LMI I or the, or be authorize it to work without a work permit on the implied there is no fees for this application is application is free, and the late of the of the permit is up to the officer, usually in the officer compare one year, usually is one year off of the duration of this kind of open work permit. Next one please. So what is abuse. So abuse can be any kind of the categories of the abuse. So physical abuse that includes, for instance, for example, a soul, also include for civil confinement, or can be sexual abuse when include sexual contact without consent. Psychological abuse, including fits and intimidation, or financial abuse include fraud on extortion or no paying wages or with the worker or for example is the stealing some of the monies or taking a worker's money salary or check is or coercing then into giving them. This is our kinds of abuse. Next one please. Thank you. Okay, there is, there are here is some examples of the abuse of the risk of abuse that a worker can experience. So for example, the employer or the recruiter or both have course they might have worked in the page in job placement and recruited. They already just say, no, you have to pay because you are here. I pay you to come to Canada, you have to pay for your trip or you know, for your train or for your flight or for any, any way the worker came to Canada. So the employer, for example, in several locations, doesn't pay the wages away to the migrant worker. This is a kind of abuse in entrepreneurial workers. The migrant worker on several locations, for example, harass the worker, and they, they feel the worker and counter water, for example, unwanted physical or verbal behavior that is offending the worker is humiliating the worker and in the context of the workplace. Another kind of abuse, for example, when the migrant worker is treated by the employer, if they complain about the rights or if they approach a legal clinic or something like that, this is what this is a kind of abuse. Another, for example, forcing or pressuring the migrant worker to perform a work that contravenes the conditions of the worker. For example, they say, you have to work in a different place with a different employer. You are going to split you in a different region or you are going to this kind of job that is usually is different, of course, that is in the work with for the activities that they have in the worker. So this is a for, of course, engagement in legal activity, or maybe, you know, these trips, maybe also cause another kind of place like a great like human rights claims or something like that for discrimination or harassment of treatment. So everything is connected when the employer is forcing the worker, there are a lot of areas of law involved. Another way, another kind of abuse is, for example, insulting, intimidating the worker, humiliating the worker, harassing the worker, treating the worker, including, for example, make comments or comments and respectful about the immigration status, just treating the worker with deportation or name calling the worker or yelling the worker or just, yeah, comments about the nationality or the color of the worker or something like that. Also is abuse blaming the worker, shaming, ridiculing, disrespectful, criticizing the worker situation is also abuse when the other core workers participate in this kind of abuse or harassment or discrimination or just love all the time about the worker or say, for example, you are not doing a good job in your country, you are very lazy or something like that. That kind of comments are abuse and putting them, the workers at risk or experience an abuse situation in the employer. Next, please. Okay. We couldn't notice, even now I couldn't notice at the beginning of the pandemic, a lot of forms of abuse in the context of COVID-19 related to the working and living conditions of the migrant workers. For example, I'm going to mention what examples we experienced as a legal clinic during the COVID-19. For example, the employer didn't provide wages during the mandatory quarantine or isolation period during the entry to Canada. The migrant worker was forced or pressured to perform that violates the conditions of mandatory quarantine or isolation period. For example, the worker was forced to work when showing symptoms of COVID-19 or forced to work with co-workers who should be in quarantine or who were asymptomatic. So usually, I know that we're at the beginning as far as when they mixed the workers or the workers with COVID, mixed with the workers that didn't have COVID. So we noticed that kind of abuse during COVID-19. We had a lot of claims for that situation. Also, it was an abuse during the context of COVID-19. When the migrant worker is prevented from seeking medical assistance, at the beginning of the pandemic, the employer just confined the worker into the workplace and just say, no, you cannot stay here. You cannot go inside. You cannot go find a doctor or you cannot find a health unit. So this is a kind of restriction to the workers. For example, the worker during the pandemic is not provided with adequate tools or working conditions to implement the public health and social distance protections. We received a lot of claims from workers that didn't receive any PPE protection, even nothing, even the basic things now, the mask, the sanitizer, the wipes. So this is not common now because most of people are educated about what are the measures, the distance measures, the COVID-19 protections, but at the beginning of the pandemic, this was crazy. And yeah, we had a lot of claims that we did kind of situations. Also, it's an abuse in the context of COVID-19, the reprisal sanctions against a worker for taking sick leave or refusing to work in unsafe working conditions. Also, the employer doesn't provide adequate accommodations for the quarantine or cell isolation to just avoid the spread of the virus. Also, it was an abuse failing to provide workers with cleaning products to prevent the spread in the shared accommodations. Even now, I have a few weeks ago, I had a presentation about housing conditions, the standard of housing conditions. And some of the workers mentioned that even now they don't, the employers didn't provide them any sanitizer or any mask they have just to go and just find by themselves the products. Oh, are you still happy? Yeah. Also, the employer prevents the worker from obtaining essential items during the quarantine or isolation period. For example, the groceries, medication, or first supply adequate alternate arrangements. For example, assisting the worker to pick up or to delivery the food to remember at the beginning of the COVID, when the workers were not allowed to go outside by groceries and the supervisors just replies that that job and go to find the groceries for the workers. And it wasn't at the beginning also that when the pandemic, when the worker prevents, the employer prevent the worker to pick up the food or just to go or just to order, or just a food in any restaurant. This happened before, maybe not now because I want to make sure everybody just educated more now about COVID. Next slide, please. Thank you. Next slide. Workers can apply directly to immigration, refugee and cities in Canada, the IRCC for an open worker before when our workers by filing out the application online. Workers has to include in the, have to include in the application online, supporting evidence of the abuse if applicable. For example, they can just attach a description of the abuse of abuse faced by the migrant worker. They can attach a letter, they can attach a statement or report from the abuse support organization, for example, a medical doctor. You know, the health care professional, or another health entity, that kind of entity. The letter can be an affidavit or the, or the letter can be just, if there is a, for example, in our office, because we're a legal clinic, we provide a cover letter, or, and we attach with the supporting documents. And it's just, or it's a letter from the, from the worker who is experienced the abuse and in handwriting with the signature on the bottom, everything counts. So if you have more supporting evidence, always it's better. So also the employer, the employer sorry, the worker has to show an affidavit is usually is better if the worker can get an affidavit and be attached to the, to the application for online. And the most important in my experience as a legal clinic is the copy of an official complaint for file by with an enforcing agency, for example, enforcement agency like for example, and depends on the circumstances, but usually the workers has to Okay, that means the requirement is is better if the worker has to have something to show a complaint because of the discrimination or harassment, or the employment abuse or whatever so they can attach to the application for a police report, or a Canadian border service agency report, or a copy of the official complaint and submitted to a prevention enforcement enforcement agency, for example, for the some workers in my experience, we usually experienced in my experience, I noticed that the workers, most of the workers I think is the the generality around 800 workers that I have in the clinic, they are victims of harassment and discrimination in the workplace. What we usually do is we file a complaint before the tribunal, the human rights tribunal in Ontario, and we get that knowledge and the receipt and the, yeah, something a document pro proving that the worker just complained before the tribunal, we use that and we use that information from the from the tribunal in order to apply to support the documentation that we are going to use in the application for open work permit. We also have some workers that have reported to the police so we can use that report and use it as a supporting document for the open work permit application. Also, the any complaint to the Ministry of Labor. So we can just attach that information to the application so is the most important thing in my experience is just to file the complaint from the emergency enforcement agency as a supporting document for the open work permit now. I know the deep line also is a good way just to show that the worker complained before in advance, you know, before to start the application. Another supporting materials that are really important to attach are for example the victim impact statement. Hard copies of any email messages, any photos showing injuries or working conditions or witness testimonies can be testimonies of the Davis by a commissioner. Some of the witnesses or can be just a handwriting of the witnesses, supporting the application of the of the worker that is victim of abuse. Next one please. Here there is a list of resources available for minor workers so you can contact any of these agencies of the phone numbers that appear here in the list but I know there are more resources that we can provide you for provide you for example chaos has a list of resources the government of Canada has a list of resources where the workers can go and are available for minor workers. So this is just a list so if the worker needs assistance or for free or needs some advice, they can contact my clinic the witnesses smiling while they are cleaning the different numbers are on the slide. So feel free to access to us or any of the agencies are available to support the workers. So thank you so much. I think this is the last slide. Yes. Thank you so much. You have some questions. Still muted. Hello. Thank you so much for that. I've learned quite a bit. And I think it would be good to have a few take a few questions before moving on to partners and experiences with the program itself so I see as one who already has a hand up, which is great. You can go ahead. Thank you so much. Hi. Thank you. It's always a pleasure to see you and hear you. To learn more about how can we support migrant workers. I'm really happy that for your presentation. I have a couple of questions fancy. Since I started with a program and participate in I have been involved in sometimes helping migrant workers with open work permits I haven't done it myself because to be honest for me just a bit over one. One question is that we as organizations. Are helping and that I need to help and do the open work permit for workers. Does it have the same. I don't know. How do you say that he to miss or it's believable or because we don't, we are not clinics. Maybe they will know that will impact the application. That's one question. Okay, about that. Any worker that is experienced abuse can apply by their cells. They don't need a larger just to find the application is an application online as soon as the worker or the agency that is supporting even if it's not a legal clinic. The organization of the community agency has to provide the supporting documents for the application so doesn't require a legal lawyer just to find out the application or to help me. The worker, the community is organizations can help the workers without any problems just get the information as much evidence you can the pictures, the testimonies, the videos, the affidavit or the handwriting. Usually, you know what, we are a legal clinic, but in most of my cases, I never use an affidavit. Just, I use the handwriting of the workers. They put the signature on the bottom and also the witnesses and this is enough. Plus, obviously, the complaint with the enforcement agency, you know, the complaint from human rights tribunal, or the employment, the minister of labor or the police report that everything counts and always even to be successful in the application. So I was wondering if maybe you can have a workshop or teach us how to do it, but that's just a comment. That's not a question. And my other question is, so I have been in situations where workers they leave the work because they are in a busy situation. So they left and they started the application in the 90 days, but I have noticed that some places that they are opening up to workers are taking longer than that period. What happened in that case? What happened when they already passed those 19 days, even though they start applying but it has not been processed? They cannot stay more than 90 days if they don't have a real situation fixed. That means, during the 90 days, they didn't find the LMI of the official letter offered, you know, the offer of employment, official formal document or signed the contract. They have to return to their countries. So there are no more than 90 days for them. So if they couldn't find, sometimes happens that they apply before an employer promised them to offer a job and they say, no, you can stay. You can just put the signature here. This is the contract, stay, don't go wait. And the workers just believe, rely on the words of the employer and stay. So if after the 90 days, the worker didn't get the offer, the offer letter or the LMI, they immediately has to return to their countries because they cannot violate the immigration deadline that could in the work permit with the employee status. So just to clarify that, so if they are still in the process, it doesn't, maybe it hasn't happened because they are still like getting in the process and making some time because sometimes these processes are a bit lengthy for some places that are helping them. So that means that they have to return after those 19 days, even though it hasn't even processed. Yes, I think it's a reasonable period, 90 days is a reasonable period to fix a situation with the employer. So if they don't get the situation ready and solve it before the 90 days, they have to return to their countries. Yeah, this is a requirement. Okay. Thank you so much for that. Those questions, we're going to move to Vilma. Okay, thank you. And my question is that because most of the workers really do not want to file a complaint to any Ontario Labor Board or Minister of Labor. And most of the times, it's so frustrating for them, because they are actually experiencing abuse but they're scared of filing a complaint. In my cases, I have filed complaint to the Ontario Labor Board and to the Ministry of Labor. And most of my applications are being approved because I have the proof, the proof that I filed cases, but in most instances, I'm not getting any approval, especially if I only provide them Afi David. Just one of my clients is here. And he lost his status during the application during the summertime in July, I uploaded all the documents, the Afi David, the complaint from the Ontario Labor Board, and all the pictures, medical report, everything that is very vital for the application. Until now, he's not getting any result. And he lost his status during those times and he already passed that 90 days. What the good thing is, he just told me just recently, last night or two nights ago that the regular work permit that was applied before the application was approved. So last night I uploaded it in the web form, but you know web form it takes forever before I can get a response. I went to the GC key account and I don't see any letter from IRCC saying that they received a web form uploading the documents for the new work permit. I also have one client in Alberta that she I tried to apply for open work permit for her but unfortunately she had a first employer and the first employer charge her with sexual assault for the child that she's looking after. And then she didn't know that and then she looked for another job and found an employer with the LMA and then this employer, the second employer sexually harassed her. I tried to apply for work permit and then that's when the time we found out that the first employer before she left filed a sexual assault to the child that she's looking after. When I called IRCC about the open work permit that we're applying IRCC said you cannot apply for open work for her because of the criminal case. She has to face the issue first, and then that's the only time that she can file but she was sexually harassed also by the second employer and because of that she can no longer her mobility is being, you know, limited because she has a problem with the first employer and then she she's sexually harassed by the second employer and now she don't have any status and now she's hiding and she don't have anybody in Alberta. So in these cases, what are we going to do with these workers? One of the client is here and he can testify that his work permit since July is still out there waiting for approval. On the right, I just uploaded two open work permit applications because one I applied for, I complained that the Ontario Labor Board and one is that the Ministry of Labor, because it depends on what type of complaint they are experiencing in the workplace. So I'm still waiting for another approval. Those cases that you have has to be evaluated according to the criteria of the immigration office to assess the applications that you already filed. I cannot give you any answer about why they didn't accept or why they are not processing your application because this is the discretionality of the immigration officers to assess your cases. But for sure, if you need to know more or you need to tell more to me or because we need to keep the confidentiality of the cases and the clients and I cannot give you any advice here. But for sure I can help you if you need any advice or I can just guide you on how to do it or I need to know more about the cases, about the particular situation of the client. Every client is different, every client has a different story, a different situation and a different result from the immigration application. So I really want to offer my help if you may be later or in another meeting in a confidentiality way we can just talk about the cases, specifically and particularly for the clients or cases that you already have. Thanks. Actually, Miss Francie, these are, this is a group of workers, 15 of them, 11 in one farm and four in a different farm and those 11, then already was approved, only this one was not approved, but they already had the first hearing on the Ontario Labour Board and they're going to have another hearing for the cases that were filed. Yeah, so the immigration office, the immigration officers, they have discretionality to assess the open work permits and review the supporting documents that you are filing in the application. So it's discretion of them to know if the application has enough merit or there are more evidence that need to be submitted. So it depends on what the immigration office criteria has been used to evaluate your situation. So, Connie wants to speak. Thank you so much, Francie. I just want to say that when we plan to have this webinar, we invited IRCC and also ESDC to be present. We did a tip utilization of tip line utilizing the tip line webinar with ESDC and we, we see the connection, right, between filing a complaint, being in an abusive environment and situation and applying for an open work permit. So, but there is a disconnect between what IRCC is doing and also what the tip line is doing. And we wanted to address that by having this webinar and having them rough. Unfortunately, they're not able to come to join this webinar and IRCC is actually suggesting, you know, to move, you know, the date of this webinar so that they can participate. Of course, we can do that. But here's what, here's my suggestion. Vila for the cases that you mentioned. This is something that we can bring up to ESDC in terms of, you know, why the 10 were approved and the same case, the same location, the same, the same complaints and the other one, the last application or one of the applications. So it's a good question to bring up. I understand that IRCC officers have discretionary powers. And, and oftentimes, you know, the, the ability to question or to appeal that decision is not always, is not always open or is not always closed. So it will, you know, for the worker to find ways on how to deal with the decision. But this is something that, you know, we can bring up. I always share and said at partners meeting that if you have cases that if you're working in cases related to the foreign workers project, bring it up to us because we have this regular consultation and check in with the ESDC and we bring cases to them and they do their due diligence and also connecting with different government agencies to find out what's happening and how they can support, you know, and give clarity in terms of the action taken or no action taken. So just to, just to bring that back. Thank you so much Connie. Before we get into further discussion, I know there's much we can talk about here. I want to move into hearing from some of our guest speakers in terms of their experiences with with the process of application and supporting workers. Through that. So, to start, I'd like to introduce Rachel Lake with Waterloo Region Community Legal Services. She's been there for seven years. She practices immigration as well as EI and disability law and speaks French and Spanish. And I am so grateful that she has agreed to speak today. So please take it away Rachel. Thank you. Thanks so much, David. So, a lot of what I had prepared to say has been very thoroughly covered by Francie, but I think it serves to just amplify what she said and underline the importance of, of certain including certain things with your open work permit application for your vulnerable workers. So as David said I'm a staff lawyer at Waterloo Region Community Legal Services. We have some temporary foreign workers in our cashmere area. So our cashmere area includes Kitchener Waterloo Cambridge but then the surrounding townships and a lot of the surrounding townships is farmland. There are a lot of Mennonite farms but there is a lot of farmland that is owned by folks who are not Mennonite. And then, but the temporary, the group of temporary foreign workers that I connected with aren't specifically farm workers but they work in the agricultural field. So I, over the past 10 months, I mean I connected with the group of workers last summer, so around July of 2020, and then I submitted my first application with the first individual, not until December. So that, that might highlight for some folks the hesitation that some workers experience going into this. They are, they're afraid of submitting these applications. In the situation for the workers that I've been working with, a lot of them are extended family members of the owner of the corporation. So there is some added complication, some added complexities for those workers because, you know, making a complaint against the owner of the company is also making a complaint against a member of their extended family. And so any, you know, the result of the application could be jeopardizing the familial relationships. So that is something that I certainly speak to in the application. So I'm not sure why this is not advancing, but okay, so these are just some of my tips that I'm going to share. I guess for all of the applications that I've submitted. Mine were all approved very quickly like within a week. But I think that that might be because they're for most of the applications I think four out of the five applications that I submitted the workers. So they drive in the big transport vans to the places that they're going to do their job. And for four out of the five workers, their drivers were falling asleep while driving. So I really highlighted the risk to life that they are facing. There is a risk to their life every single day that they're getting in the van and going to work. And I think that that might be why my applications were were all approved so quickly. But even with the one who who wasn't in that situation. hers was also approved very quickly so I feel like there is maybe somebody who's triaging these applications when they're first received to review the strength of the application evidence that's included and kind of a preliminary of what exactly is going on in the situation. So, so yeah just wanted to mention that because the processing times for these applications like I said, on the website, it says that these applications will be processed very quickly within five business days. That has been my experience. However, I also have spoken to others in that company who either applied for this on their own or they applied through an immigration consultant and months ago and their applications have not yet been approved. So, it is possible that that these applications could take up to the standard amount of processing for a change in work conditions which is could be up to four or five months. So, yeah, in terms of my tips for getting a quick, a quick result and a successful results. So in my work I have described in a lot of detail the full circumstances surrounding the application. So I have discussed everything that the workers have experienced from the time that they signed their contracts in Peru, and even maybe slightly after that. So, even, you know the circumstances surrounding the signing of their contracts in their home country, I think, establish an example of how, you know, the, the owners of the corporation were intending to exploit the workers. They never received a copy of the contract they signed. The contracts were all in English, none of them spoke much English. They didn't have the opportunity to take the contract away to have it translated. And they were, like I said, never provided with a copy. So, so yeah, just really discussing, like I say, like in in great detail and much detail as, as you can or the worker can the full contacts that they are are experiencing. So I just reproduced their section 207.1 sub one of the IRP regulations that Francie also highlighted. So it states a work permit may be issued under section 200 to a foreign national in Canada if there are reasonable grounds to believe that the national is experiencing risk or is at risk of experience of experiencing abuse in the context of their employment in Canada. So a few things to note here the standard that you have to meet this standard. So it's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It's, it's more of a balance of probabilities of 50% plus one that the worker is experiencing abuse. And as Francie pointed out, it's abuse or risk of abuse. So if others in their work community have experienced, for example, like inadequate access to health care or a lack of care when it comes to COVID or patterns of sexual abuse. These are, you know, things that your client doesn't have to experience themselves. They just have to show how they are at risk of also experiencing that. And as I said, it's really helpful to demonstrate a pattern of abuse in the company that remains unchanged despite attempts to address problems in the past. And for, for all of my clients, this was their situation. Some of the clients that I connected with had been working for years with this employer. Some were like eight years off and on, some of them had just arrived a year and a half ago. But regardless of when they arrived, it's just, I think helpful to demonstrate to IRCC that these are patterns of abuse that are unlikely to change, that are entrenched in the culture of the company. And, and, you know, of course, workers, if they have tried to address anything, any issue with their supervisor or the owner of the company, you know, you'll want to talk about that in your affidavit. And if they haven't, that's also fine. You can explain why not because of the fear because of the threat of punishment because of the abuse and how other workers have been treated when they've spoken up. So all of that is, is important to discuss. In my applications, I always used an affidavit. I mean, typically, my affidavits have been between 13 and 16 pages long. But I mean, this was my first experience doing it, I was very thorough. But of course, those affidavits did take a lot of time to prepare. But I have been successful and it's only taken a week. So, I mean, it's hard for me to weigh in, you know, what's required, what's necessary, what's better. All I know is what I did and that I was successful and very quickly. As Francie said, including as much relevant supporting evidence as possible, the more the better. So I've included photographs, newspaper articles, like for example about the condition of the apartments that they live in, in Kitchener, newspaper articles about similar incidents that have happened within the company. Like, even if they happen many, many years ago, the incident is, you know, was a horrific incident that was covered by papers here in our area and also newspapers in Toronto. So I always have included those definitely medical records if what you're explaining is that the worker has, you know, had injuries, then you want to show that like yes, that in fact the worker did have injuries and that that they've, you know, if they've accessed any sort of medical care trying to get those records and including them with the application has been helpful. Certainly if the worker has gone to the police, to the Labor Board, to the Human Rights Tribunal, if they filed anything on their own, definitely including that with the application, also like emails. And then something that I found really helpful to submit is screenshots of texts or Facebook or WhatsApp message or WhatsApp conversations with the workers, family, friends, partners, coworkers, anybody who they've been talking to about the abuse that's happening or about the situations that are happening at the time that they were happening. Those can go a really long way in supporting, you know, what the worker is saying in their affidavit. As Francie said, very important if the worker has filed those complaints to submit them in the situation. So in for all of my workers, none of them had submitted any of these kinds of claims. They're very isolated, they're the owner of the company, you know, would tell them things like you're not allowed to socialize with people outside of work. And they were very cut off from any sort of social services or knowing anything about how anything works in Canada. So none of them had done any of this, had filed any claims. And because, you know, the priority is removing the worker from their situation of abuse, I would explain in the affidavit and speak to the worker about, you know, connecting with our employment lawyer so that she can explain to them their options. So what I would do is in the affidavit I would just, the worker would say that they are going to meet with the employment lawyer to talk about their options. I would speak to the worker about the tip line and the importance of submitting a tip through the tip line. And so we would just talk about our intention to do all of those things. We haven't actually done it. But even just by, you know, mentioning that this is what we are going to do. I think that was perhaps helpful in getting our applications approved very quickly. The last thing about evidence I would say if you, if you can't provide evidence on an important issue, then explain why you cannot provide it. So, as I said, one of the issues was the drivers falling asleep while they're driving. But it's very difficult to provide evidence of that because, you know, a lot of the driving is happening at night so it's dark, or the workers are all sitting behind the driver so it's really the angles are really awkward and you can't really take a picture from the back seat of the driver falling asleep. So I think with my first application my client had forwarded me a video of the driver like doing the head bob and so I took some screenshots from the video and uploaded those as proof. But for the other workers, I didn't have that kind of evidence so I would just explain, you know, unfortunately we don't have evidence of this but, and this is why because it was always dark because the angle was too awkward. So, that's just my tip on that point. As Francie said, discussing anything related to COVID-19 is very important. Anything from proper social distancing while they're working or during the transportation or in the employer provided housing information, you know, these are just kind of things to ask your client when you're first meeting with them about their work place things that you can add to the application so access to vaccines did they get time off to get vaccinated did their employer range with public health for the for public health to come to their place of employment to do the vaccinations. If not, like, yeah, did they get the appropriate time off to go get vaccinated. And then, again, like has the employer provided proper PPE hand sanitizer, did they have policies and protocols, did the did the workers ever receive any information related to COVID. And if not, just mentioning that. Okay, I guess once the application has been submitted. I mean, again, like I said mine were approved very quickly but, you know, once I send off the affidavit and connects my client with our employment where she would read that she would write her letter of support, and then I would I can upload that through the online form. I can provide updates if anything changes or you say, we're submitting this and we're waiting on information will provide it when we receive it. Once you do receive that information then you can upload it through the web form. I guess the last thing because I realized that my time is is probably gone over is that so as a lawyer, my job is to submit that open work permit application. In reality, my clients need so much more than that. They need so much. They need a lot of support transitioning out of this isolated situation into new housing new job and just changing their address with the CRA filing their EI application. So definitely want to connect your clients with as many resources and people who can support them in the aftermath of the application as possible. I mean my dream is that we would have a Spanish speaking social worker in house to help my clients do all of this after after stuff. We don't. So a lot of it has fallen on me and it has been very draining and exhausting to do all of that because I still have to do all of my other legal work and this has been a very difficult year for me personally. So final thoughts are remembering that your clients are all survivors of abuse and they need to be in control of the process. You can explain to them the importance of taking certain steps, but ultimately it's up to your client whether they do want to take that step or not. And sometimes their priorities are going to shift after the application is approved. And so, for example, you can explain to them the importance of filing with the Ministry of Labor or submitting a tip with the tip line. But they may not want to do after their application is approved and and that's their call. It is not our call and just applicants need a lot of support. So thanks. That's that's it for me. Thank you so much Rachel. There was a lot of fantastic information in there. And that's a terrible story but it's good to hear that the applications in that story about the driver falling asleep went through. So thank you so much for for all that you've offered here. We are going to move along to Eliza from the Cooper Institute as well as anything to offer their partners in the empowering temporary foreign workers program and have been for since the beginning. Thank you so much for agreeing to speak and we'd love to hear about your experiences in supporting workers with this in open work permit applications. So, thank you. Thank you, David. So yeah, Ryan and I are with the Cooper Institute in Prince Edward Island, and we support migrant workers here. We have had kind of limited experience going through the actual process, but we're going to just chat about those two experiences we've had. We've had an experience where we had success and even the challenges that came with the success and Ryan's going to highlight a case where we didn't have success and, you know, further challenges that came with that. I think just also mentioning, you know, Rachel mentioned this in her presentation also that there is just a lot of hesitation among workers around applying for this because it does come with a lot of risk. We've spoken with quite a few workers about this opportunity like open work permit, kind of program and potential of applying for it. And even folks that we know are in the situation to be as said communicated that to us clearly. But there's still very hesitant to apply understandably because of the risks that are associated. So just kind of what that would mean for kind of their, the community back home and, you know, also if they have debts, what that could mean so kind of just highlighting that, you know, we have had just two workers that have actually gone through the process but we have spoken with quite a few more about it, and really just the kind of fear that unknown especially when we can't guarantee that that they will get this open work permit. So that's just kind of one piece to highlight. So with the open work permit process that we went through where we did have success. It did take a considerable amount of effort so myself and my coworker, along with a neighbor who spoke Spanish and FCJ refugee center in Ontario, all support us with this worker. So there was a lot of kind of upfront work on that end. After though we got a quick time turnaround, thankfully so it's been five days also and that's has been the case for both situations. But afterwards just the amount of work that was required then to kind of support this person finding a new job. They had, they don't have any English skills so there was kind of a lot of support given for themselves, as well as the neighbor in searching for another job. Additionally, you know, we, thankfully we were able to find jobs at this worker could do and what's interested in. However, things that came up then were around housing and transportation, a lot of the jobs were in rural areas in PI and housing and transportation just aren't available so that really hindered kind of what opportunities there were. So, looking at because of open work permit that this worker received was for one year. Just kind of the concern of what happens after one year, when they are then kind of forced to, you know, go back into a closed work permit. We did consider that quite a bit and brought that kind of a lot of the worker kind of decide do you want to, you know, go with this job that we did find that, you know, they we already know they won't be able to get a labor market impact assessment. At the end of the year, and then we'll have to start fresh there or should we go with this job that you know does have that labor market impact assessment we know they can get in and have in the past and there are other micro workers there. So this person did choose to go with the job that has a labor market impact assessment. However, what we're seeing now is, it was a six month seasonal job, which is common here. But because of that the worker does want to kind of continue to work after with the remaining six months of their open work permit. And that has not put their current job in jeopardy of being asked back. Because the current employer doesn't perceive them anymore as loyal to them. And so this has put the worker in an uncomfortable situation where they're now potentially having to go find a new start fresh after the six months, even though we had, you know, kind of set up something that was hopefully going to work. So I think just, you know, for workers to be going in and out of the like the close to the open to the close can be really complicated for them. And just, you know, doesn't really love them much mobility and leaves them some vulnerable situations. So that's the case that we actually have success with, but just kind of highlighting some challenges and then Ryan's going to chat about the case we did. Yeah, so I think that I already shared a lot of the story on one of our previous calls. The worker was in touch with us for looking was experiencing these the workplace, sort of when we mentioned the open work permit. It turns out that this individual mentioned to us that they already applied. So their application they followed everything the information they had on the website. To clarify their application IRCC did call them some of either that call you took place at their place of employment, or at the accommodation provided to them through the employer, which is potentially a dangerous thing to have happened. But I think that the fact that their first application was denied kind of speaks to some of the huge barriers for this program. First, you know, the language barriers huge right this is only offered in English and French. Thankfully this worker is fluent in English. But I know with like, in particular season like agriculture worker program. The Mexican embassy put out some information about that last year and just kind of said that you know the vast majority of individuals going through this program are not fluent in those two languages, and also that like 42% of them only have primary education or less than that, which means you know a lot of these systems aren't really designed for them to navigate easily. And also just like the technological requirements right like laptops, a lot of folks we work with sometimes don't have laptops or access to laptops right. And I think the biggest one that we've kind of seen is the just the labor power and I'm sure a lot of you folks know too it's the labor power it took like three of us about three or four full days to go through one of these applications right. And, and the lawyer as well but even when we're doing that right like we found ourselves at a point where we're on YouTube trying to find tutorials about what options to select. Like, they're not accessible by any means for workers, or you know organization supporting them. Unfortunately, as a lot of you already know this worker was denied the open work permit on our second application. They were told that they were not able to demonstrate that they were experiencing reviews, even though we France you did give kind of the qualifications there of the four types of use they can experience. So we very much highlighted two or three of those through, you know, an affidavit letter from us letter from them. We went through online reporting tool. We supplied text messages photo evidence. It was still denied. Yes, like that didn't really make too much sense to us and I know also know from like the report that was sent out last week like a lot of times. It was saying that like service providers in the province have to talk to the federal government about like some of the regulations in the province. So for instance in PEI there's quarantine laws mandatory quarantine of two weeks. This individual was working during that they were told to work. So like maybe sometimes there's a little bit of a lack of information sharing there, or search buyers have to kind of tell the IRCC about the standards in that province. So back on that reporting tool I have already shared with this I don't want to go too too much into it but basically because we submitted that complaints, although the work permit was denied by IRCC. We decided to send somebody to do an inspection at the workplace, which was, you know in workplace very small, it's pretty easy for the employer to kind of figure out who did that. And it led to a situation where this worker was messaging individuals saying that they feared for their life. And led to an emergency kind of evacuation for this worker and we're now in the process of trying to find that worker in a new employment and place to stay. It's kind of been ongoing. But I think that really what this kind of does is it reflects it like given like the nature of the temporary form worker program. Like there's kind of like an inherent power dynamic between the employer and the actual workers and and from our kind of reading of this you know and and from the previous presentation to it's like kind of like, we feel so any worker should really be eligible for these open work permits whenever you see, you know just the nature of how this program operates. And, you know, this program itself is just very inaccessible for there's a huge amount of barriers for people to access it, but there's also a large amount of negligence from IRCC and the SDC that you know needs to be addressed. So it's really, really unfortunate that neither of them could be here today. We're pretty disappointed in that, but very thankful and hopeful that Kairos can kind of read this information over to them. Thank you so much. And yes, we're definitely going to bring as much of this information as we can forward to IRCC, because I think it is important that they understand, not just like in the running of the program it's important that they know how it's practically and experiences on the ground. As everybody's mentioned that it is, it is an effort to go through the process itself. And in the application process, like as you described, it's sort of two agencies within the government working against each other. To the detriment of the workers so I think that's important to raise up to as a practical issue within the program. So we're going to move on to Vilma. I saw that the worker, unfortunately, has run out of radar and my apologies for for the scheduling of this I should have been more considerate so all apologies but Vilma would you still be able to talk about about your experiences. Vilma, I got one from TNO. Thank you. Yeah, so when we started the empowerment of for migrant workers sometime in February. We saw a lot of abuse from the migrant workers, not just from the caregiver community but as well as from the farm workers that we visited in Ontario. And because of this project, we were able to help a lot of migrant workers experiencing abuse and most of them are really scared to file a complaint against the employer because first, most of them were not educated about the rights of the migrant workers. So when we started doing visit visitations to different farms, we started doing a lot of workshops and give them presentations about the rights and and because of that, most of the workers are now coming out and started to contact us, especially the neighborhood organization to file complaint and I have filed 20 last summer, 20 cases, and for open work permit for vulnerable and only I'm still waiting for some approvals, just like one of the workers who just left because his data is has run out so I'm still waiting for his approval and last night I also uploaded to applications. I'm not a lawyer and not licensed but I'm helping clients and because there is a gap in, you know, they could take, they cannot go to legal clinic because legal clinic closes after four or five, and they're working from time to time up to sundown so the only way they can connect with us is through TNO and my schedule is always at night because because workers, they can contact me during after five o'clock. So most of the time I am up after five o'clock because that's when I get a lot of calls from workers. And this program really helps and saves a lot of workers from the environment, from the abusive environment. And I'm so happy to let you know that most of the workers that I applied for, they're now happy and working with benefits and with overtime pay somewhere else and I have one worker who was beaten. We went to the farm and he was there and he has so much black eye and bruises all over his body. He was beaten by coworkers and he is living in the bank house of the employer. And that was Friday night. And then he filed a complaint to the police and then the employer came and the employer said that I already bought a ticket for you for Monday morning. So I said, do you want to leave? He said no. Okay, if you don't want to leave, you have to go to the police station where you filed the complaint, get the police a report, go to the hospital, have the doctor check you out and then take the medical report and then leave the employer's place, go somewhere else, you know what happened because he only have a car, a small rental car, he slept in his car. And then we uploaded this application, we did this application over the weekends. I was up like two nights and so we uploaded and then we finished Sunday early in the morning. I uploaded it in IRCC website and then I said we have to wait but don't go, don't leave the country because we already have the application. I was surprised, his application was approved within 48 hours and he's now in Toronto working and he has an open worker. Also I have clients, they are from the seasonal worker from Jamaica and also from Philippines. So because the open work at the temporary, the PR to PR public policy has been announced, so the temporary foreign workers under the SAWP was able to apply for the PR application for this PR to PR and these workers don't need to go back to Jamaica because they have now an open work permit and they are waiting for the approval of the PR. Actually they already received a acknowledgement of receipt that IRCC is now almost in the final stage. So when IRCC sent letter for biometrics and medical, meaning that their application is ongoing and almost in the finish line. So I'm really happy for this program and I'm really happy for the open work permit for vulnerable program but I think that the government should give some leniency so workers can access and apply for the program if clients come to me, 20 clients will come to me, at least only two I can apply for open work permit because they're scared to file a complaint against the employer. I think that's all I can say, thank you. Thank you so much for your contributions. So we're going to open it up into discussion as we enter into this discussion and Q&A. I'd like to remind you to keep yourselves muted until you're called upon you can use the raise hand function to Q to ask questions, or again you can put questions in the chat. And we can shift them into the, or I'll read them into the chat. So as we open the floor, we'll start with Roland. You're muted Roland. Good afternoon. Good morning everyone. It's lunchtime now here in Atlantic Canada. So the question I think we have some lawyers that have even experienced settlement organization that could answer this question so I have a client that he has been promoted he came here as a shift manager to one of the restaurant here and after a couple of weeks, a couple of months he got promoted to an assistant store manager, a restaurant manager, and after, without changing the LMA. So after a couple of more months he got promoted to a restaurant manager. And I think he worked there for about six months and suddenly he was demoted to a shift manager again. And then he was threatened that if he don't sign the contract to become shift manager again, that his family will be will be deported to the Philippines. So we tried to, you know, we already made a complaint at our employment standard in New Brunswick. But we were told that we don't have sufficient, sufficient evidence so because we didn't he didn't record it. So he technically, you know, he technically signed the contract already that he will be working as a shift manager when he came over here. So what would be, what would be, you guys are recommendation or refers to produce an evidence to in order to proceed with his, his application. We haven't filed anything at the, you know, at the federal level, because we're wondering that we need to provide first the evidence in here. Even from the province, if we can get something from the province that telling us that they violated employment standard that we could go up and apply for a permit for Bernal or a employee. I appreciate any, any thought that you guys could share with us or direct us in the right resources or direction that we're good for us. Thank you. Hi, it's Rachel here. I guess I would probably recommend maybe connection with an employment lawyer, who would be able to write you an opinion letter about how the employers violating the workers rights. And using that. And I mean the fact that you submitted the, the claim with employment standard. Those are both indications that these things actually happened. And so, he told me he cannot sleep. You already have, you heard about certificate from the doctor for a four weeks a day up or stress leave. So he already filed a client claim to AI, but you know, still in process. So, so yeah, I would include that medical evidence as well. So if the doctor, yeah, I mean, if the doctor can can write a supportive letter as well, or and if your client can access any free counseling services. They've got to, you know, just evidence of support that they're accessing in the community. And then like, it would be helpful to like write a narrative that tears the eyes that all together. He has a very long narrative. That's why, you know, we are almost ready for that. But we're just waiting for another letter because when when the employment standard wrote to us he said that the emotion is an internal for the company. So they basically we accept that we think that they can, you know, they can promote the mode. Even without working permit so without without. I know that we, when he changed when he came to New Brunswick, he has a shift manager position. The LMA is ship manager and then he become assistant manager without changing the LMA. And then when he become a store manager, two weeks, two months from that, that's the time that he changed the LMA to a supervisor to store manager. And then it lowers down to ship manager again. They didn't give me another LMA. So that's all we're trying to see. There's there's a problem in that. And our employment standard is specifically say that, you know, no, no employer can threaten you. Or even a bit, you know, even allow you to deport an employee. So we're waiting for that decision, because they said we don't care about the emotion right now. The only thing we care is, you know, threatening to deport him in his family. So this is a lot of grief and stress on his family. Yeah, absolutely. So certain violations of the law in other areas are important to talk about. One of the examples I offered in with my applications is that the employer increased their rent without any warning or any discussion that just happened and they all noticed one day. So that's something I mentioned as well as an example of financial abuse. So however, you can characterize it to fit into those categories that IRCC lists. So that's going to be helpful. I'm going to take a Francie's comment on if it's on this, and then we're going to move to SL for the next. Yeah, I agree with Rachel and yeah, I would like to recommend Roland just to for me in my experience. It was just the handwriting of the worker and the witnesses. Why? Because the declaration of the statement of the abusive worker comes is the biggest proof is to your experience. The abuse. So if you maybe the affidavit is better. Also the handwriting of the worker witness testimonies, writing handwriting or affidavit attach it for about employment. Anything that you have coming from the employment because sometimes is not easy to identify the issue. For example, if you don't have the contract, you need the contract. This was everything is based on the contract. So we need the call. You will need the contract any warning to the worker. Any email that they didn't reply. The human resources didn't reply. It works. I mean, everything you can attach as approved is better for my opinion, in my opinion, the affidavit would be perfect and all the recommendations that Rachel also take to Roland it works. Thank you so much. All right. Hi again everyone so my question specific to Rachel and Francie. So this is not specific to the open work permit, but in general access to immigration lawyers. I'm not sure if both of your legal clinics have the capacity to do accept clients from other provinces, especially those with legal clinics that don't have immigration lawyers. I can't handle any immigration related services for migrant workers. Unfortunately, no and even within Albert if you could mute yourself that would be great. Thank you. No, definitely not from out of province even within the province like our funding is dependent like every community legal clinic has a geographic catchment area or an issue specific. I only practice started practicing immigration lot about two years ago it was just something that like it was a clear need in our community. And so I just started learning to be able to practice it myself we've since hired a full time immigration lawyer, but no definitely not out of province and even for clinic, even out of catchment area is is pretty much a no only because of our funding and also my capacity. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. The same is similar. Yeah, we are, we are in a clean system. We only are. I mean, our cash in area is just limited in our case for Winston and SS County, however, because we are a clinic system we are able to to support the other clinics in the other regions. So, now, for example, we are supporting the grace groups clinic. The clinic in any issues they can deal with because they don't have too many cases in immigration or employment or something like that about minor workers. So, as a clinic, we will be able to assist any other clinics or help them with any issues to deal with the issues or just get an advice or just a recommendation or guide to the legal clinic they want to start just doing applications for minor workers. Yeah, I think we are open to to help any any clinic in the regions. But yeah, we are limited to our geographical area of services. Thank you. Thank you. I had a question from Mike. Yeah, sorry, I was just wondering, I know that there's certain farms in the area that there are issues. But there, the amount of workers is is quite large like we're talking hundreds of workers in a situation like that. I feel like it would be difficult. If everybody at once decided that they wanted to leave that employer because the conditions were so bad. It seems like a huge barrier because of, you know, the lack of ability to handle that that large of a case load, just say like, you know, several hundred workers at once wanted to leave that farm and have an open work permit. How would we even be able to handle that kind of workload. It just seems like, you know, it's okay in cases where there's just a few a few workers but what if everybody decided you know what if they were educated on on the open work permit program, and they all were like yes this farm is terrible we all want to leave. You know, are there any ideas of how we could handle such a such a large amount. Yes, Francie you can go ahead. Now, I have the same situation here in in our area. A bunch of workers they didn't want just to leave because they are using their workplace and they approach us we want to find a group complain and say no way wait wait. Just any situation is a particular any individual has different experience on the abuse. So it is not easy. What I mentioned is, each worker has to buy their own application, provide their own evidence. The evidence of one worker will be different to the other evidence of the other worker I had a video another don't have a video I had a text message the other one doesn't have a message that depends on the situation, but I know there is a massive number of workers experiencing the same abuse, but each application has to fight separately independently one of the other and be supported with good evidence and depends on the discretion of the officer. Enough merit, or they consider enough merit to approve an application of a work permit that means just a, it's just like a hot medicine to the application and wait for the immigration officer decision. All the cases are resolved at the same way, just depends on the, the merit of the application and depends on the discretion of the immigration officer to decide all the complaints. So, step by step, a one by one application will be better. Sometimes if the worker just didn't experience the direct lead a situation the abuse situation. It's not easy that be successful in the application but if the other workers experience worker who has who was victim of the abuse is going to be successful so it depends on any any of the workers and the evidence they can show up to the application. Under the guidelines there it kind of it stated that if a worker is at risk of abuse. So if there's a pattern, then they might be able to use other evidence just, you know, supporting evidence to say well this is happening. Not happening to me, but I am at risk of abuse because of the way the employer treats other employees at the, you know, at the farm or whatever so would they not be able to use other evidence, you know, to support that they are at risk of abuse not directly experiencing it. How often, how often do people use that, you know, to be to to get an open work permit. Do you find that people are using other evidence of somebody else or is it more is it usually just direct abuse, they're experiencing to use it directly. It can be directly or indirectly so what why when I do my cases, I use them directly evidence from the other workers as a witness as you know that witness testimony of the other coworkers. What else if you don't experience it directly you can see an in a risk of abuse because my co-worker Pedro was hearing by the employer or we all all of all of us we went treated by the employer and I had a video and in the video he's treating all of us. So, you know, any evidence witness testimonies can be held it is directly or indirectly so it depends how, how you will support your application and convince the immigration officer that is a risk, a situation or is a direct or indirect abuse. Yeah, so yes this is what I want to say. Thank you. Thank you. We're going to move to Connie. David, is it okay if we go out to Stacy and yeah. Okay. I'm going to go to Stacy first, just because we haven't heard from her this session. And then we'll come to his money afterwards. Thank you. I have kind of a practical question. I was with the worker was in Nova Scotia is now in Ontario is interested to file well to apply for the vulnerable worker open work permit. How would we know who direct direct them to in terms of a legal clinic that provides this kind of support. You're in Toronto. They are in Toronto but they might be in Scarborough they might be, you know, yeah, so if you just go on legal aid Ontario's website or if you just Google five. Find my community legal clinic. Then it'll take you to the legal aid Ontario website and you putting your postal code, and it'll tell you who, which legal clinic in the province is for that person's address. And that legal clinic may or may not have an immigration lawyer, but if they don't have an immigration lawyer they can probably refer you to another legal clinic who does or give you some ideas and appropriate referrals. Thank you. And in the chat. Claudio has included included that the community legal clinic of York region in Ontario can assist workers in the York region of which Scarborough, Toronto would be part. All right, so as wanting. Thank you. So I'm just trying to understand, and maybe this is more like for fancy because the majority of workers that I work with, they are from Mexico, so they come to the SAP program. So it seems that it's a bit different between the other program so it's a temporary farm worker program and it's just temporary, but it's foreign worker program right so there are two different programs. And it seems that it's a bit different because with temporary farm worker programs, they seem first of all it's more difficult for them, because the, the, the, the term or the contract is just a month maximum. So, then they seem to be more for more like, say, look to that employer. I have have cases that they are not going to file not because they are not very useful because they would not like to file is because they say I've been working like in this farm for 1020 years. So if I say something, I'm going to lose even my pension or all these these opportunities that I have. So, I'm not going to be rehired because it's the same employer that is rehiring this worker every year. So this seems a bit more complicated for that specific program for those workers that are in the SAP program than the other like two year program. And I also understand this open work permit program for vulnerable workers is pretty new. So in the terms of, they don't know like if there is opportunity to come back even just to apply in the, in the program, even though just to get in the system, when they go back to Mexico and they had to apply to the worker label. So the other thing is that they are having a bit of hard time. I mean, it's nothing to be for sure now but I don't know if you have heard anything like that, or that's, that's one thing. The other thing is like, I just honestly feel like it's just a band, a mandate for workers for vulnerable workers. It seems very difficult to access, like you said, racial without proper support of like a certain worker to help them with housing, finding new work, a new work with LMI. It seems very, very difficult to navigate. And also when they are going to apply for a new work, the new work or the new job is asking for reference. They are asking for experience, but they cannot provide, they have worked in a farm and they have experienced with, in something specific they cannot provide that because then it's going to be like a red flag to the new employer like, okay, you left because she actually said that you would have used but maybe no. And then sometimes seems that workers of long, I mean, employers don't want to get into that difficult situations. I don't know your comments on this. Can I comment on that, please? Sure. Yeah, because last week, the last two weekends we were there in Lamington with Jennifer and the rest of TNOs team. And we noticed that so many migrant workers coming from Spanish speaking countries and we visited one of the farms and there's four, only four Jamaican workers and then we presented a video, we presented, you know, the rights of the workers and so on and so forth. And then we asked and I said that how come there's only four Jamaicans in this farm workers, because last summer we went to this farm and there's more Jamaican compared to Mexican, and they said because the workers before us, they complained. And then when they came back to Jamaica, the government did not recall them because the owner of the farm reported them or these workers, they made a complaint and so we're not going to get any of your workers anymore. We're going to get workers from Mexico because Mexico, they don't complain. So, another issue is that, even in the Philippine community, there was an advisory from the Philippine consulate and Polo, Philippine overseas labor of employment. They made this advisory that it came to their attention that there's so many Filipino workers applied for open work permit because they're abused and they were, they got the approval of the work permit. And then because of that, when they visited these farms, the employers reported it to the Philippine consulate or the Polo, and then they made this advisory that the worker should not do this because it affects the image of the Filipino workers. And I said, really, you are more of the image rather than saving the lives of these abused workers, you know, so these are the issues that we saw during our visits and this coming weekend we will be there again because there's so many workers coming, going out and then coming in. Thank you for that. Thank you or Francine wants to go. Yeah, go ahead. I don't know. Okay, for Aswani, I want to say it's difficult, I know, to try to be successful in an open work permit for one of our workers is not easy to get to know the much evidence that immigration office wants to see, but fortunately we have been very successful with the applications. And the time you say that there's so workers, the seasonal workers program, the workers, they had a short time. So they are, they don't want to file an application because it's a short time because the reprisals from the employer or something like that, but you know the application this application is very short, that's me as just trying to get the evidence that you have most evidence that you have a support with the application and the answer will be one week maximum two weeks is very fast. If the immigration officer wants more information contact, he contact the worker, usually they contact the worker and say, oh, give me more information on the employment, give me just clarify the situation or something like that. So, you know, it's very, very easy. I had a lot of workers from the software and successful in the application, because it's so fast, that's me as soon as you get the evidence, gather up the evidence is super five years of your documents and there's an application online, and that's it. Because wait one week, if you are not successful try another way, or maybe I didn't know that mean everybody when when file an application notice, what are the witnesses, and what are the stages of the application that had made it maybe I failed, maybe I need to support more maybe I need to bring another maybe I can attach this one or someone just apply again, why, because it's a short time to decide. So there are many options. This is a very good option for workers, and I know it's difficult to get a successful answer, but it's easy to apply many times and get the answer. Yes, my advice. And for Vilma, Vilma was mentioned about Vilma, you say about the in terms of the Philippine consulate. Oh, the Philippines in limit. Yeah. And usually is, they didn't, that means you say there are many Jamaicans now than before, because the government refused and something like that, and they, and then I think you say because they complain. And I think the immigration officer doesn't have in mind if complain or not complain. This is just the criteria, the criteria to decide, and apply to approve or not an open work permit for vulnerable workers. It doesn't matter that's mean it's not, they don't have in consideration, even more, how am I in Jamaica supply or more Mexican supply. No, it's just a criteria that the immigration office has to evaluate any application. So anybody has the option to up to complain and to understand and exercise their rights in Canada, and the deep line is showing that. So the government is protecting the workers. And I'm saying is you have to complain to it anonymously, regardless what your employer say, usually the employer use this type of tactic to, to say the workers is you complain, I can just send you home, and you don't have right to complain because it's not like that. The government is protecting the workers, the government is giving tools to them to apply to protect the workers so everybody has right to complain. So they can do it anonymously if they don't want just to reveal the fire or something like that. Yeah, this is just so I want the government is protecting the workers. I want to move to Connie. We just have a few minutes left so I wanted to get her perspective on this. And then we're going to have to move into wrapping up soon. Thank you, Francie. And is it Elsa? The other speaker from water. Sorry, I wasn't. It's, it's, there's a lot of, you know, sharing of experiences, questions and so forth. And as I said earlier, it is important that we don't have, you know, the IRCC and ESDC people are representative to this webinar, but also just to say that there are a lot of important issues as well that we were not able to touch. For example, when we talk of the open work permit for vulnerable workers, this is very temporary. It is only, you know, valid for one year, and it's not renewal. So the idea that the whole, you know, protective of this work permit is to take away the worker from an abusive situation, an abusive work permit, and for the worker to be able to find another employment, another job that is not as abusive and as this previous, like, so, so, you know, when we advise or when we present to the workers this open work permit, we have to be very, very careful to make sure that they understand that this one year, this is non-renewal. And for them to be able to come back to the program that they are in, they have to find whether it's LMA type work permit or open work permit, they have to find another, a new employer so that when the open work permit expires, they're able to, you know, renew and apply for the kind of work permit that will allow them to stay in Canada for longer. The other thing that we need to understand is when we use the tip line, when we encourage workers to use the tip line to complain or defile, complain or lodge an allegation about the work situation and abuse, they are experiencing. We also, it does not necessarily that they have to apply for an open work permit. What we, what the purpose of the tip line is, is to ensure that there is an avenue for the workers to report the situation they are in. There is integrity branch within Service Canada that makes that inspection and, you know, make recommendations to change the situation. Now, when we, we also advise the worker, whether there is a price or whether the worker is being targeted by the employer because of, you know, of using the tip line, as Francis said, the government assures confidentiality and privacy of the workers are using the tip line. Of course, there's, there's always a leak and you know, we cannot, we cannot be sure that that confidentiality is not reached or something like that. But again, for us, and I think this is very important for all the community partners under this project, we want to make sure that we understand that we know, you know, and we know what to advise or how to advise and support the migrant workers who are coming to us for assistance and for help. Now we are in partnership and we collaborate with community legal clinics, and one example is the community legal clinic and the bilingual legal clinic we were in Hanover last weekend, and we were able to identify other issues, other concerns that we don't know about. So there's, there's continuous education for all of us and at the same time, learning from the workers, we go back to them and said, we, this is what we find out and this is, you know, the options or information that we want to share with you and it is up to you, to help to support whatever decisions you know you might want to make. You don't want to make promises that you know we cannot fulfill particularly when those promises has to do with immigration or government agencies that we don't have control about what we, what we're, what we're doing though is we bring to them to their attention and we come across our way and we ask them, you know, what they can do, what they can, you know, what information they can further provide as our community partners, so that the information that goes out there is accurate. The other thing too that I found out is when, for example, a worker in the seasonal agricultural workers program apply for an open work permit. Once that work permit is issued automatically the worker is out of the program. So, so he cannot go back to the program until he gets another employer that brings him back to SAP and similarly for the two year agricultural pilot program. So there are those and I think there is an organization actually that did conduct a study on the open work permit for vulnerable workers and they found a number of major issues and concerns. And that document was actually shared to our partners and I think it gives us to look into that and add our voices in terms of what are the concerns, what are the challenges, you know, we face as faced by the workers and shared with us in, you know, this pathway or this avenue to get workers out of vulnerable and in an explosive situation. I'm saying this just because we really wanted to educate ourselves on the limitations, the challenges, the barriers and gaps as well with, you know, the open work permit and also in using the tip line and understanding what the different limitations restrictions and policies are when it comes to their workers coming to Canada, whether under SAP or under the two year agricultural pilot program. So I would say there's a lot of learnings to do. We take it from our experiences with the cases that we have with workers that come to our, you know, for our assistance. And as Francis said, there's no one single answer to all the questions. IRCC, you know, makes decision based on the merits of each worker or each application and not, you know, collectively or one one farm or something like that. So I just wanted to bring that up. Thank you so much for that. So we've reached the end of our time here. As mentioned by a few of us, we are going to be carrying questions and concerns forward in our discussions with ESGC and IRCC. So I have saved the chat. So I'm going to take some of those questions and collate them and as well as things from the session itself. And I'm going to put my email in the chat if there's anything you think of as the day continues. And you can send further questions and concerns there for us to carry forward. And also in the chat I have put in a link to register for the next webinar from the Empowering Temporary Foreign Workers Program, our project, and that is on the airport services that Tyros offers, but also an understanding of the airport services as offered across Canada. So thank you so much. Please get in touch about questions and concerns that you want us to carry forward and thank you so much for your kind attention and participation in this webinar. Thank you so much.