 No glitches. How many folks had a pickle juice martini last night? That that I won't say it's better than the NorCal margarita, but it's a really nice compliment. I'll tell you that so That that farm dinner last night was absolutely amazing Yeah That was my question. It was about pickle juice. Well more broadly it was about mineral supplementation, you know Considering grass-fed organic paleo diet. Is it necessary to supplement with minerals? My take on this as a supplement manufacturer and distributor is no And and just sort of as a background story I've been in the supplement business for almost 30 years and I entered it as a as a means of trying to find ways to assist athletes improve performance By providing things that they couldn't necessarily get from their diet, whatever that diet was But as I got more and more into this realm of Primal paleo ancestral, let's call the whole thing off. I I Saw that so many of the deficiencies that we normally see in athletes who have a high carbohydrate diet and lots of sugar and lots of Omega-6 oils and things like that Was probably the root cause of all the not all but a lot of the many mineral deficiencies and the The idea that perhaps, you know, the the fight age binding with some of the minerals and and a lot of these other things that we talk about in the in the broad context of a primal or paleo diet it may Cross over into for instance women who have osteoporosis. They don't have osteoporosis necessarily because they're not throwing enough calcium at their bones They have it because of some other Metabolic issues that relate to the foods that they were eating Being inappropriate for absorbing calcium in that regard. So my basic take is that other than somebody who's on probably a aggressive ketogenic diet In which case you probably want to do some supplementation or if you're on a very low carb beginning very low carb Part of your weight loss strategy in which case it's probably appropriate, but as you get I think closer and closer to What I would call a an ideal body composition. It's probably less and less Critical to do that provided you're provided you still have at the base of your food pyramid Substantial vegetables and you just to Maybe add a little bit to that I have a can of Mark's master formula with the packs in my pantry and I usually use like one or two a week But it's very random. So for me. I'm a little bit I'm looking at it more almost as a hormetic stressor than I am as potentially a Nutrient deficiency, but I think given the level of stress I have we just had a baby and all the rest of that stuff Like I kind of dropped that in just as a safeguard, but I really randomized it I mean Art Devaney was talking about that in like 95 98, you know instead of being super Pedantic about it. It's like use these things, but be a little bit intelligent think about the ancestral life way Try to have some kind of modulated input so that you're diversifying toxin loads Like that. This is another thing that just eating one variety of food all the time you're pumping one You're pumping Typically one type of a flavor of toxicants or even vitamins through metabolic pathways without diversifying that and then you can overwhelm those systems versus, you know mixing stuff up a little bit So I I think it's a thing again where there's a lot of individual variability you think about like if somebody's Hypoclerotic they have low stomach acid. What is the likelihood that they're getting adequate mineral absorption fat soluble vitamins? Really really low and this is why a lot of the people who have hypocleridia or other gas or intestinal problems They have a fingernail ridges and stuff like that They have a dental issues wrote with our dentist up here who's who's talking to us So, you know simply saying okay, well I eat a paleo diet. I'm good or primal That's that's so surface and we're not considering the individual We're not considering their stress. Are they police military fire medical because they're doing shift work And then they end up with hypocleridia. They have abnormal gut bacteria You know, I mean there's so many Extenuating stories there that it's really important I think that this is not to get like wax philosophical here But I think there is such a potent desire for folks to say this is the thing This is it, you know, this is where the orthodox paleo whites live And this is the way that we're gonna do it and we do ourselves a disservice with that because it's where the pissing Masses start and it limits our ability to really be able to customize this stuff We have a template that we should then intelligently look at our individual Circumstances and then make some informed decisions off that and sometimes the decisions will be wrong and sometimes it'll be right But it's a lot better than trying to spackle this this one-size-fits-all approach to all this Thank you very much. Can I add just one more quick question or It was really in light of the fact that most of the soil in the Western world is kind of denuded of minerals I just didn't know if that factored into you know Yeah, I mean I having said what I said about just blanket. I think the first thing you need to do is fix You know your diet to to eliminate some of the things that are probably causing issues Part of that if you if you look back at the daily values and the RDIs and the RDAs as they were first constructed in the 40s and 50s and they were based on Some assumptions one of which was a grain-based diet So I think in many cases probably 1,100 milligrams of calcium a day for women is probably too much It's probably inappropriate if you if you've rid yourself of some of the other factors So maybe the mineral requirements aren't even as high as we originally thought they were And but but again having said that if you do have these issues then certain amounts of supplementation can still be appropriate And I came up with a new product idea after what you just said Fractal formula See once in a while how often you take it once in a while. Well, no, you just you just You randomize what's in it. It's in you. Yeah Black box you actually push it. We have somebody from the FDA here. So we push it through. We're like, no, no, no This is fractal dosing. Yeah, so It's just the error bars are bigger than what you claim are in the sample may contain this Yeah All right Next just a comment and then a question first to you two guys and dr. Eaton and everybody here Thank you very much for bringing all this stuff into the mainstream and helping everybody here and helping us me Now at the risk of Rob jumping across the table and turning me into some kind of pretzel with a BJJ move after What he just said and couldn't be my question being one of those broken guys that's a firefighter Aromatic shift work can't sleep all the other metabolic issues that come along with that General broad brush recommendations that can help with sleep other than sleeping in the dark room and knowing what we already know Is there anything new? Any better way of dealing with What we have to deal with I Mean the classic stuff, which I can't say it again or enough You know like pitch black room really good sleep hygiene so that when you are getting ready to go to bed Like it's kind of a consistent I like to say like serial killer consistency and if you see my handwriting then it's completely Charles Manson So, you know, it's like consistent there. I think that depending on what the individual has going on You know like that. I made the recommendation that maybe First responders should be using some low-dose You know metformin under the guidance of their doctor obviously all the rest that stuff But you know if we reverse metabolic problems, then we tend to antagonize the production of cortisol And if there's one thing that's going to shut down sleep is elevated cortisol And so maybe it's some diagnostic stuff just doing like a four-point ASI to figure out where you are in that spectrum Being really intelligent with your training. So I mentioned some metabolic conditioning for first responders police military fire You know like medical workers, but there's a desire It seems like people will either sit on the couch until they die or when they get off the couch then they attempt to commit suicide every time they work out and You know, there's like the appropriate dose and within the CrossFit scene There used to be this kind of economics oriented deal where we're going to do a minimum dose with a maximum return And that's traded off with how much can we do without dying? You know work capacity of Ross corrupt broad time immodal domains what that translates into How much can you do without dying? And I think that that is antagonistic towards sleep because you know the cortisol axis and all that so Getting all that stuff kind of squared away and then on the supplementation side Depending on what you have going on. Maybe GABA maybe melatonin definitely some Like the fizzy magnesium stuff I have a doc who I've been fighting the idea that transdermal magnesium works. I'm like Bollocks it can't work, but he just threw me a bunch of papers that Claimed that people sitting in epsom salt baths that they they did blood work on them and they can see plasma magnesium go up And so I have said Bollocks on this for so long and because I couldn't find any good papers on it And then he just threw a bunch to me. So maybe like a magnesium salt bath So there's some things that we know are pretty good at inducing relaxation And that's about it I mean this is part of the the thing that for our police military fire and medical workers Like we need to be more intelligent about how we we structure their shifts because there are better and worse ways to have people Come on and off shift most excessive force. I've been really tight in with the The police chief scene on the national level virtually every excessive force scenario that that pops up in the news is Immediately following a shift change for the police officer So you you've just had your sleep disturbed you go out there You get put in a difficult situation and you're cranky and you make a bad decision Potentially, you know, so that's stuff that we need to think about Yeah, maybe more fats. Yeah, so does that help a little bit? I mean like you know So some of these classic sleep aids Melatonin Gabba, but depending on how you know what it is that you need to deal with but making sure that you're dealing with Cortisol a fossil-tile serine like two to six hundred milligrams fossil-tile serine before you go to sleep can suppress cortisol production But if you're at the end of adrenal fatigue and you're not producing enough cortisol then that could cause a lot of problems So I can find a good doc to do all that with With a booster seat What are your thoughts about icing for Whether icing is primal paleo or beneficial for chronic or acute injuries Well, I'll I'll lead off on that. I mean my own experience with icing has never been good and I've always sort of fought it Not not intellectually as much as just intuitively And I've never really had and I've had a lot in my share of injuries And I find actually that some amount of heat works for me better than ice so I'm seeing now in the literature. There's a movement toward getting away from this Aggressive icing of an injury immediately post on the other hand in terms of Some kind of a chronic inflammation I I do subscribe to the idea that maybe a soak in a tub for a Couple of minutes might be a good hormetic stressor to add to the to the complement of your recovery One of the greatest Marathoners that ever lived a New Zealand guy named Jack Foster swears that his longevity Was as a result of his having stood in his backyard and hosed his legs off with a garden hose after every run he ever did So there's you know clearly anecdotal, but I'm not with regard to this again aggressive icing post post trauma I'm not a big fan of that and Particularly now that I've read more of the science. I do think that some it's really about Getting blood flow to to get to that area and clear Waste away and bring in new nutrients and and to a certain extent decrease swelling but if anybody read k-stars recent one of the recent Mobility wad pieces it was about and I've agreed with I've thought about this for a long time as well And and now the orthopedic community says this which is basically we're going to get you up and moving as soon as we Can after after a surgery or after an incident so one of the new treatments is to actually Move within reason up to a point of pain or just a mild pain As soon as you can after an injury will will probably help speed up the recovery Yeah, do you know the only thing I'd added or just to kind of springboard off that like somebody has a ACL repair and then they throw them immediately in a CPM continuous passive movement machine You know and they start bending and flexing and part of what we're thinking about with this is that when we're trying to heal You can have kind of a spastic healing which is a bunch of amorphous scar tissue Or you can have tissue that is laid down in a way that we actually have support structure that is advantageous You know like if you want a Protein matter running in this direction versus like an amorphous mass because you're you know You're loading through the patella. You don't want scar tissue just that's just all kind of gnarled up and interestingly Having a pretty significant inflammatory response is critical in that there's different pro-lo therapies Think things a little of that nature that you know They will actually induce Inflammation in a joint or or in a particular compartment in the body to try to speed You know do you need to kick start the inflammatory process? Kiloid scarring is actually a scar that's gone partially through the the healing process and then it stops And there are certain drugs and and I think like st. John's wort oil and stuff like that that will Restimulate the inflammatory response and move things through I think that occasionally, you know sometimes just palliative It may feel good to throw some ice on there, but it's kind of making sense, but again like this is The systemic Effect of jumping in an ice bath is different than the localized effect of trying to turn all the inflammation off because you You know you have some tennis elbow type thing That's completely different than the systemic effect of jumping in getting a hormetic stressor getting the full body insulin Sensitizing so it's important to remember, you know 30,000 feet versus, you know, right right at that local level Totally She was waiting longer So I'm coming from more of a longevity interest than a Athleticism kind of interest and I'm scoping out an ultra high-fat diet as a possibility of that Mark, I think I'm one of your blog posts you Disclosed being maybe the the 55 60% range for fat intake wondering what you guys think of going higher than that Are there any problems? Yeah, I think one of the things that I've arrived at Personally is a recognition And Ron rose deals another person who would probably Be in this camp that the less glucose you burn in a lifetime the better off you are which doesn't mean zero glucose It doesn't mean, you know very low carb all the time, but it means trying to aggressively You know find ways to Improve your fat intake and your fat metabolism and and and that includes how you move to support that That lifestyle and that's it ultimately the the Primal blueprint was about Taking a look at the recipe for a healthy human and and putting in all of these component parts that we know to be there a broad base of Very low-level at heroic activity You know plants and animals and all of the things that we talk about avoiding toxins, but ultimately Glucose in my mind is probably you're probably better off reducing as much as you can over a lifetime and yet one of the new strategies that we're going to be incorporating is sort of a cyclical you know we use periodicity in in training and well you can use that in life, too So you go through periods of time where you are Maybe very low-carb and other times where you kind of come out of that and you you're not in so you're not a Ketogenic guy for the rest of your life, but there's times when you go into ketosis and it's very beneficial and it Cleans up some of the some of the debris that is one of the intentions of ketosis and then you come out and you you know Explore some of the flavor options that are that are not available on a ketogenic diet but I Think that I mean Peter at hyper lipid is a guy who's been probably 80% fat for years and years and years seems to do Very well on it So I don't I don't see much harm in that but I but I would be just from because we don't have the data I wouldn't necessarily plan the rest of my life to be ketogenic. I think an interesting development if folks want to do some searching Michael Rose from University UC Irvine and a lot of his stuff sounds a lot like what Art Devaney talks about and they were in the same building So I can't help but think that they probably had lunch a lot or something but he he had some really interesting papers that basically described the fact that Chloric restriction in humans was probably not going to extend life and There's some interesting things genetic reaction norms like how organisms respond to various inputs and From survival standpoints and whatnot like if if you look at the amount of energy that an organism puts into child rearing And if you curtail energy Input then it's likely to extend life, but for humans that doesn't seem to be the case And so that for me it was kind of like Okay, fine, so I'm not going to do calorie restriction be cold skinnier than I already am Hypogonadal and everything else to live longer. It's like it's just not gonna work So why even try it so that was kind of cool So then you're kind of like what what can I do just so that you know? Maybe maybe I don't live longer in total time But the amount of time that I have is much, you know more productive and and I Forstall that decline one of the key features of that there's a great paper secrets of the lack operon which talks about nutrient partitioning and how we we Are able to be flexible with the the fuel substrates that we use and basically one of the characteristics of aging is that you Lose the ability to mobilize fats as a primary fuel source and to become more and more glycolytic What what's a primary tissue that is exclusively glycolytic? glycolytic folks red blood cancer Cancer the Warburg effect so as you age and if you age in effectively you start looking a hell of a lot more like cancer Than what you would ever want to look like cancer So one of these things that we can do is a cyclic low-carb approach, which is what I had done for for years You know just for like athletics and it seems to be this kind of middle ground I I see a graph of performance health and longevity and we clearly know from data from professional athletes that a Performance orientation will antagonize health and longevity at some point There was just some some research that a professional football players have an average lifespan of 58 years So we need to really work to keep John well-worn Sort of step on fish oil and keep the big lug alive till he's like 90 So you know it's but this is the the stress and I think a lot of it is oxidative damage and impact and all this and so We can mitigate those things by a cyclic low-carb and part of that element of the cyclic low-carb is this hormetic effect again we have a moderate carbon take today which is going to up regulate all of the kind of detox enzyme pathways that deal with a Larger carbohydrate intake five days down the road. So it's these punctuated equilibrium moments where we You know you maybe have higher higher carb for a day and then much higher carb six days later And then you're immunized against that high carb meal later, but it's causing you it's forcing you to be Metabolically flexible and the substrates that you're using and I think that's very very beneficial for long-term health It is all super speculative and this is one of the things that makes me a little bit nuts about like well It needs an RCT. It's like design an RCT for this tiger You know it's like there's there's so much stuff out there that just is going to defy Throwing it into a randomized control trial And so do we just sit there and like sit on our hands and wait? Well, I don't know we can't do an RCT so we shouldn't speculate about it and do some tinkering I think that we have enough understanding of some metabolic pathways that we can make a reasonably educated Thought about what we're doing and don't become religious about it and go nuts or anything But you know we can we can make some informed decisions about you know What's going on because we understand a little bit of the metabolic machinery and we can make some informed decisions on that? I also think we know the outs where the outside margins are so that we can play with this Individually so that we can you know we talk a lot about the experimental one and If you've gotten to the point where you've been in this arena for a while It's it's appropriate for you to maybe Play around with a little bit and see what see what your own results are you're not going to do any damage to yourself Let me throw this out there. I've been doing more safe starches and my LDLP has gone up dramatically So I'm gonna start eating ketogenic again So yeah, and I which I had eaten Ciclic low carb where I would go like you know six days Very low carb and then have a reasonably large carb meal and then three days and then two days And then six days three days two days and I just kind of broke it up like that And when I did that I had blood lipids that would make you know any cardiology Weep and now they don't look that good my triglycerides are higher everything's higher So I obviously am not all that carb tolerant But I know Matt Lawn has been tinkering with more carbs And he ended up putting like eight pounds of muscle on and he's leaner than I've ever seen him So that's where that experimentation any equals one tinkering We've got some general ideas and then you need to get in and tinker and it's kind of like putting on a pair of Jeans it's like does my ass look good in this or not? I don't know you don't know until you try so yeah Yeah We haven't spoken much about gender differences with these ancestral diets and a lot of complaints You know from women they they will say I'm holding on to more fat or post-menopausal women Does it matter? Are we supposed to hold on to more fat? You know should we be trying to lean down as much as our male counterparts, you know yeah This has been a in the last couple years I've noticed this a lot in the comment boards and in the forums and So my take on this is that first of all if you are in a position where you've come from us any kind of metabolic damage Or any kind of overweight or any kind of a issue and you've addressed some of these issues through this strategy of eating You've gotten rid of PCOS. You've gotten rid of your type 2 diabetes. You've lost some weight there women tend to hit a plateau sometimes sooner than men and Calls to question in my mind the concept of ideal body composition and my take on that is that if you get to a point Where you plateau and you may not be satisfied because you're not yet ready for the cover of Victoria's Secret catalog It doesn't mean that you failed. It's it's a sign that your body is saying I love what you've done with the place You know I'll stay here. I want to I want to stay here a while And if if you're not sick if you have the energy that you need if you maintain that weight without Fighting it and without having a calorie count if you're able to go about your life then then All other things being equal. What's the problem? So now we but but then the problem becomes because of the society that we live in damn And I want to get down to 13 I'm a woman and I want to get down to 13% body fat. Maybe it's not in the cards for you so But that's got to be okay because this is first and foremost This is about reclaiming health the other stuff to look good naked comes later And sometimes it doesn't come at all and that's got to be okay too because it's got to be about an acceptance of of the health that you and the recognition of what you've done to get to to reclaim new health and Then from there you can decide but sometimes there are costs attached to getting to the next level You may have to work really hard. You may have to now you may have to start sacrificing and suffering now You may even get sick more often and And not live as long just because you wanted to be on the cover shape magazine My parents recently switched over because my father had a cholesterol issue and insulin resistance And we convinced him to switch so my parent my mother's in her 70s She's doing it with him and she's constantly complaining that he's losing weight and she's not losing weight And so it's not working for her and but she's healthy. She has no health issues Can I confidently say or it doesn't matter you're holding on to the weight, you know, that's where you need to be at 75 Yes, who remembers the blog post that I did on in my meeting paleo may losing enough weight So what's the take home on the weight loss deal? What do you do with your scale? You put a bow on it and find somebody you hate and give it to them and let it make them neurotic So I mean that that's where like finding performance orientation like the scale tells us nothing You know if if you're if the magic fairy could come up and say, okay You know, you can look however you want but when you step on the scale It's gonna say 150 kilos like, you know 300 plus pounds. Do you care? No, you don't care like if you look look feel and perform the way you want but the scale is gonna magically You know, it's gonna be like somebody's gonna push down on it and when people change this stuff around your mom I would wager probably had some sarcopenia. She maybe had some osteoporosis brewing like, you know There's probably a bunch of stuff there that's being reversed And so the scale isn't giving her good feedback and that's where like a simple hip-waste measurement before and after photo and then having some performance orientation and if that's like going to the end of the stop sign That's a quarter mile away and back and she times it and that's her kind of performance metric cool But if you focus on performance, this is one of the cool things that I really liked about what CrossFit has brought to the scene Is it when people are performance oriented? They don't do squirrely eating habits Anorexia and bulimia goes out the window because if a chick comes in the gym today And she's got three pull-ups and then she's not eating enough or binging and purging over the weekend She comes in on Monday and she has no pull-ups and then she gets her ass kicked in front of all of her peers And they're like what went on and there's like I had a bad food weekend But that's done that's behind me now and so when we focus on performance and let the aesthetics come as an outgrowth of You know form form follows function kind of kind of gig Then we don't have those problems and a lot of these other issues that pop up the eating disorder and stuff like that are gone Yeah My question is is concerning an unwanted outcome of CrossFit, which I just started about a year ago and The problem I'm wondering how common it is number one and number two Is there anything that those of us who are suffering from this can can do? So that problem when you have your sit bones so no matter when you're sitting what you're doing is Becomes incredibly painful. I guess they call it bursitis or tendinitis of the ishield tuberosity Something like that. Does that's about yeah, that's that's up close and personal. Yeah TMI so Yeah, I've had it all my life and it goes away when I get fatter And then when I get more muscly and thinner and doing CrossFit I'm in pain all the time when I'm sitting, you know, whether it's driving in the car. So obviously, okay, the solution is never sit, right? You took my smart ass Next question Right No answer for that that's generic it's real specific to to you I know you you you find people who have the same the same issue But I mean, I don't know whether it's the form that you're using and in the lifts that you're doing or there's no I mean this again the solution is Is is you know the kind of stretching that you might want to do to maintain the robust flexibility that you need to have and Not so not depend so much on the strength and the and completing the wad as much as the health aspect of this You know, what is it going to take to keep me mobile for the rest of my life not to kick some 26 year olds ass in this workout But some of this is just like the backside has less padding and then you end up having some problems sitting Maybe just like one of those physio balls the big inflatable Or the stand-up desk, which I do both, you know, I do a lot of writing and We'll do You know 40 minutes standing 40 minutes on my on my sit-down deal And then I'll actually take my laptop and throw it in the floor and then lay down an extension So I've heard levitation is Yeah, that's probably a different conference, but yeah, yeah, that's the Berkeley conference for sure So we have like five minutes, so we should definitely Boogie boogie down. I'll make this quick My question pertains to intermittent fasting and I know you both kind of spoken on that a lot Like everybody else here. I'm very busy. I'm getting a master's degree. I got a kid. I'm a firefighter I'm worried about getting it into my into my regular routine and Elevated stress level. So what physical and physiological like indicators Should I be looking out for to say that I'm too stressed if I do implement it and twofold? What is what is your take on intermittent fasting and having say a hundred and fifty calories worth of like a clean protein? just a straight plate weight protein in the morning and maybe a couple hours later like another 50 calories to prevent muscle degradation I Think that that's a smart way to go. You could do weight protein. You could do branched chain amino acids Martin Burcombe from lean gains is really tinkered with that stuff a lot The thing that you want to be careful about is when we start elevating cortisol Antagonizes testosterone production. We get a pregnant alone steal and that stuff is so insidious And once you head down that path, it's a little bit like heat stroke Like once you've started doing it it is so easy to go back there And you are already in a lifestyle that facilitates being cortisol, you know overloaded So I would just be really careful with that I if anything else the intermittent fasting literature what it tells me is that we don't need to be neurotic about eating every two hours to Maintain muscle mass, but if you have a very stressful lifestyle, then I don't know that I would really advocate it Like I would try to do those things that mitigate stress as much as possible So I would be really careful with it. I agree. I think what we're trying to do here is we're trying to to To to retrain our bodies to be good fat burners and to be able to use ketones And and so I use intermittent fasting only when it's forced upon me You know if I'm traveling and I and I'm on a cross-country flight It's not gonna have any good food or whatever. I'll choose to not eat rather than eat crap Because I have the skills. I have the ability to cruise and not have it affect me So intermittent fasting purposeful intermittent fasting is really good for people who want to lose a lot of weight Or people who are really into the anti-aging strategy of if I'm fasting, you know Theoretically I'm going to be repairing DNA. I'm going to be consuming damaged proteins and fats and things like that as part of that but again in a stressful occupation and with a fit guy, it's it's probably better just used as As a tool to assist you when it's forced upon you that you don't have to worry about Tearing in the muscle tissue because that doesn't happen anymore because now when you when you don't eat you just burn fat Okay We're good one minute quick question quick answer controversial question though that's a good rapper in Norway in my country in Europe The team that's currently leading the soccer elite division has been on the low-carb high-fat paleo diet for Six seven years and this obviously is very controversial And this is a club with very small resources and they have outstanding numbers Better performance after they switched to this diet. We see that especially with Players coming from other clubs that use high carb They lose a lot of fat very fast and we're talking about top top football players But on the other hand, we have had a lot of well You had had several incidents with top athletes having heart attacks that are on a high carb diet Controversial questions, but I was wondering if you had some thoughts about this Because we have seen it in Manchester City Manchester United several region I think when we start talking about professional athletics like diet is huge But this the stress that people are subjected to in professional athletics like I I would love to jump on this and just be like hi Carbs kill don't do it, you know, but trying to maintain some Steeping in some, you know scientific rigor in the whole thing It's common It when you look in the literature You know like a electrical disturbances of the heart that lead to death in professional athletes We had a rash of that and NBA basketball a number of years ago and it was completely unrelated to diet Or I would say largely unrelated to diet and there were some genetic factors That then were selected for because of the stress of the training that they were undergoing So I would be disinclined to really hang much of that on diet personally And maybe we have a cardiologist in here that would come in But we do know there's some preliminary research indicating that high-carb particularly on Carbo loading has been associated with electrical disturbance atrial fibrillation. Okay, and so carb loading can cause problems And So, you know what I asked is what caused a heart attack was it a clot or was it electrical disturbance? No, no, no, no black arteries it was a heart So it's an electrical Yeah, I mean I've I've for a while I kept a registry of all my friends in the endurance community who had either died or had a Defibrillator or had a heart transplant and I stopped counting when it was 50 and Art DeVaney does the same thing and we look at all of these Otherwise healthy athletes that dropped dead and I know cardiologists in LA who specialize in athletes and who say there's there's a Pandemic an epidemic of a fib in endurance athletes because of the thickening of the of the Wall of Hypertrophy, yeah hypertrophy, which which if you look at what chronic cardio does it's the heart is not it's a demand-based organ You know it doesn't say I got a stop your brain tells your body to move and the heart goes All right, I got to go along for the ride so you can override this and cause the heart to have to go to work too hard And then ironically we feed it with with sugars and carbohydrates because that's what we're told the heart You know needs to to to work and over time. I think we're we see some problems So I probably I would I would suspect that there is a dietary component in elite endurance athletes as to why they're having a lot of these problems Yeah, I would just not discount the Physical activity as the as a big factor in that but yeah hundred miles a week are running Yeah, and I think we're out of time, right? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you everybody. Yeah