 Hello everyone, we're going to wait a few more minutes before we get started. Amy, whenever you're ready to kick us off. I'm going to hold for a couple more people because like normally we'll have like as many as like 27 to 30 in here and right now I'm seeing 14 so I'm going to give up a few more minutes. Yeah. Thanks. Of course. No worries. Hi everyone. Excellent. Okay. We were we were holding a little bit to be able to see like who else is going to join. So, all good. I will, I will now kick us off for four minutes in. So, welcome. Welcome to your TOC meeting. Welcome to your normal LF anti pressure policy notes. Welcome to meeting logistics. You have made it to the meeting. Well done. We're watching online later. Also good to see members present day is going to be attractive and to see public working doc. Here's our agenda today. It's annual review day. Awesome. Thanks so much, Amy. Go ahead. So let's get started with pixie. Are there any pixie members contributors maintainers on the call. I want to turn it over to them. Awesome. Oh, cool. Okay. Great. So, pixie is a observability tool for Kubernetes. I leverages EVPF to collect data. We're currently a CMC of sandbox project. At a high level, you know, we've been seeing some pretty steady growth and contributions and continued project growth happening. We are actively working on adding additional maintainers to the project. Both from, you know, within. So, stepping back a second, pixie was built by pixie labs, which was acquired by new relic. A couple years ago, and pixie was contributed over to the CNCF after our acquisition. The entire pixie team is still very actively working on pixie. And we have quite a few external contributors right now they're working on expanding our maintainers to include folks from outside of new relic. And also to broaden our governance process to include folks from outside of new relic so we want to get to be a good vendor neutral status. Right now our governance is pretty much controlled by me and Michelle, and we'd like to make that more community governed over the next few months. And we plan to resume our community meetings monthly every November, so we'll be sending out those calendar invites slash locations. So happy to see an expansion of this project. Awesome. Thanks so much. Yeah, pixie has been doing some great work and moving forward and they are striving to increase the amount of participation and documentation that they have for the project. Does anybody have any open questions for them on the call. Same couple of things that we didn't talk about the other day. So, you know, the calendar when you do the calendar just make sure it gets added to the CNCF calendar to that would be one dog one would be like when you start writing down things. I don't know if you talked about so please talk to the tag contributor strategy to get their, you know, view on like what you're writing up in terms of governance. That's going to be very critical. I think we talked about security to write. Writing down the security processes that you already follow so you will get a sense of how you do things and what they can expect from you if there is a problem right so those are the like three things that came to my mind. Yep, that's not good and we have some security reports that for the pixie project that we plan to release. So they're just going through legal review on our side but we plan to release those shortly. Okay, thank you. Anyone else. Okay, thank you so much pixie for coming and talking up next to CNI genie. Do we have any folks from CNI genie on the call. Hi, yeah. My name is Vinay Vinay Kulkarni and I work for a company called future way technologies which is a subsidiary of Huawei and CNI genie. This is this project had been in the back burner for for quite some time due to staffing issues since the 2019 government restrictions came down for the parent company and they had to cut staff to manage the project budget budgeting based on the progress that they're going to make after that. But now it looks like they asked us to take it over in all fairness they asked to take it over in last one year or so it's been but we haven't had the bandwidth to, you know, give attention to it given all the other things that were going on. We recently hired a new person who joined us couple of weeks ago. So I'm hoping to get a reboot on this project. I think the need for this project is there in the sense that there isn't very many solutions out there that does multi home networking. And we have another project that we have been working on we presented recently in various conferences and I think the technology that's based on XDP is really solid and scalable. So we're hoping to bring that with the native isolation. This is some of the ideas that I have given put down over there, the annual review. The main, the main idea is to integrate the work that we've done in that with CNI genie and then add some of the newest, the CNI solutions that are out there support them like psyllium, this is one of the very popular solution out there, and then essentially we're going to integrate it over the next one year or so. So we're going to start doing the routine regular community meetings and as soon as our staffing is done, and we're going to have there, I think there's another university in China which is potentially there are who are already working on this project, and they might contribute to this we haven't worked out the staffing yet. It depends on what their contribution interests are they look to generate papers out of it. And we want to use this for more production. So, the points that I mentioned there pretty much I think the bottom line is that yeah we want to continue this project we want now we want this staffing up. And as we get more traction and see how it goes. We'll probably, obviously we want to get external contributors and make it a real, you know, behave, but that's going to be a little while I believe. So, it's going to take a little while. We're going to take a few small steps here, as you said, and we'll take it from there. Any questions that you might have as far as the, our plan goes. Matt was doing this right. I don't see Matt on the. Okay. I can tell, you know, I had unplugged my laptop from my normal microphone and when I plugged it back in zoom decided not to switch back. So it was just a microphone. Oops, the, I don't really have any other questions because they weren't they were covered I mean CNI genie kind of started to stall for a while looks like it's getting re invigorated in life. There's a roadmap with plans around what's going to happen in intent. So, I don't really have any other questions. Yeah. Thanks Matt. So I do want to share something here. So when I is has more patients than me, and he's been working on a feature in communities that has taken longer than any of the things that I've had. Auto scaling. So, you know, I took the crown from you on that one. Yeah, exactly. Thanks a lot for that. And I'm sure your guidance is going to help here. So one question, like, I wanted to ask was you were talking about the technology itself, the ebb of XDP itself. Do you have a sense of like, what use cases that you're going to start with, like when the new people come in, like, do you want to do exactly what they were doing before or go to a smaller use case like you were saying. Yeah, the first use case is essentially bring psyllium that should be a relatively easy thing to do for the new persons who's coming in and wrapping up at psyllium, you know, and to do end to end testing make sure that it works in isolation. And I think the next, the big thing that I really want to do is take our ebb of the XDP architecture that we have, which natively provides isolation today when you I think this came about the idea came about from one of the talks that I listened to in KubeCon EU. This was, I believe IKEA was trying to use psyllium and multis and they mentioned a bunch of issues that they ran into. And one of the things they were talking about in that was they want to have multi home networking, each of them in their own isolated networks. This is something you could do with any other provider, but you may have to use network policies that if you're using the same provider. In our case, we do that by at the packet layer we use the Geneve isolation Geneve as the overlay and then we use the VN is for isolation so and we have a demo of that working for a new architecture that we've been working on, where multiple. It's a Kubernetes cluster and then re architected so that you have one API server talking to today you have one API server it has a bunch of worker nodes. What if you had multiple API servers sharing those worker nodes. Now each of these API services its own tenant partition. And that's where our solution works very well. There's any other CNA solution that saw and our solution is not it's not commercial as you know, it's more of a prototype. We don't have the staffing here to do commercial stuff we do R&D. And then if it becomes a strong need for the parent company they do it they have the staffing to do it. But our idea is to essentially present the technology and then get collaborators contributors in to work with so it's ecosystem project essentially. So that that use case I believe this can be a very good candidate to solve that, you know, provide natively isolated multi 10 multi home networking to put it in one line. Sounds good. Thanks a lot. Thanks. I have a question so do you have any performance data when you use a BPF STP compare with the Linux Linux network stack. We don't have published numbers what we did do last late last year was we tried our the Mizar project it's called project Mizar. And we tried that with using a simple IPF test on a one gig. We were able to do better than psyllium we still do better than psyllium in a couple of metrics like TCP are our test. But what we did see was that when we go to like real line speed, like 10 gig next which is what's common and it's going further further up now. We were, we were capping out at 2.3 2.56 gig or something. I investigated that and found that the reason why that's happening is because we use XDP in the to at the to terminate the container connection like when the pod sends out traffic. And then it comes out and we converted to XDP back frame and then we redirected to the TXQ of the transmitting that involves a conversion from SKB to XDP. That is an overhead. So we're looking at potential alternatives redesigning the architecture a little bit because in the past one year when we started this project we did not have anything that would give us something like XDP redirect which you know shoots a packet from one interface to another one. I think the psyllium folks have added a few things like EBPF redirect peer. These are a few APS which do what XDP redirect does. So we're hoping to use that and then see if we can get a better performance on the TX side. But the main use case for this would be isolation at this point, more than performance. Okay, thank you. Any other questions before we move on to fluid. Yeah, I know this is about more isolation and performance but any comparison with using DPDK. No, we have to avoid most of that, you know, limited working sky. Yeah, we haven't done a comparison with DPDK I would suspect that the PDK would probably perform a little bit better. Because you're essentially taking the packet and putting in user mode and processing it there, but then you also have the limitations of DPDK right. It doesn't work everywhere. You need to have that SDK, you need to have that NEC, or you need to have the processor that works with it. I don't know. DPDK is more like a software library, so it's got nothing to do with the NEC. It can work on any operating system. Okay, next space. But it's essentially avoiding your network stack. Yeah, I think it avoids the kernel network stack because you're so I know I know about that. I haven't we haven't had the chance to do a comparison with DPDK. I suspect that DPDK will probably perform better than better than XDP or EBBF in most cases, but that's yet to be seen the main place where it might come. Now, XDP might do better is when we get offload, you know, offload ecosystem is still in its very infancy, EBBF offload, there is not a lot of mix out there. There's one netronome which we tried out for some time last year and we ran into several issues that netronome on paper says they do EBBF offload but when you try when you go near it and then take a closer look. It doesn't support XDP redirect, it does not support tail calls, which is one of the things that we were using. So there are limitations to that. But, well, it's too early to say there might be some, I just had a call with an with the CTO of another company who is working on HXDP, which is hardware XDP offload that was yesterday. So I'm digesting the information I got. There is potential for offloaded XDP to, you know, give perform on par with the board. Yeah, yeah. So, but that might be, you know, we're talking years, maybe, I don't know. It's not going to happen. Yeah, so there is some things coming, but we don't know whether. Thank you so much for all of that additional information for folks that have more questions I would recommend that you file issues with the project so that the discussion can take place in a recorded location and be shared with everyone else. Thank you again. Next up is fluid. Are there any project members from fluid on the call that would like to talk about the project. If there's no one I can go through this Emily. Thanks Kathy. Okay. So fluid provides communities native. Distribute data sets orchestrate her for data intensive applications. This is going very well. The project is very healthy and static. It has very healthy and static contributions. It has, you know, bi-weekly community meetings consistently has five, but maintainers form committers and nine new adopters last year. Total is 15 and has two releases. And the maintainers committers come from not just one company, I think at least four or five different companies. There's, you know, several big features planned. And also they, they are thinking of adding more documentation and to make sure it has good maintenance of the website. It intends to remain sandbox project so it's not ready to apply for in the patient yet. They are trying to get more committers contributors and users, and then they will consider applying for the incubation project. And so they're asking CNCF, similar to other party to increase promotion of the project. And basically more channels to advocate their project. And they would like to collaborate with other projects in the CNCF, and even if it could be out of CNCF. And also they want some relax some technical writing support for documents. Okay, does anybody have any questions we will endeavor to try to answer them here. Okay, next step is Andrea. Is there anyone is there. Yeah. Yeah. Anyone from Andrea on the call. No. All right, Dems you're up. So, Andrea was in originally a VMware Tanzu project and that got contributed to CNCF. I think they're doing all right. In terms of like contributions and adoption. They have the usual issues that we see in other projects which is, hey all the maintainers are from one company or you know the forming company so they are trying to figure out like how they can, you know, increase, not just contributions but also add maintainers so governance was something that they are looking at to do better. I don't think it was mentioned here but they've started like new sub projects as well based on Andrea. So using Andrea as a layer, you know, as underlying component to, and they've added some contributors and maintainers there as well. So, overall, they are doing okay. What they need right now is, hey, what do we need to do for big stop starting the process for an incubation project. And one of the things that had held them back before was who do you consider as end users, you know, off a project right so in the earlier definition used to be very rigid and I think Emily, you ended up tweaking that quite a bit to see how we could get additional signals from different types of folks, and not just the way it was worded before. So, I, so based on that I think they are kind of ready for this. I might have to look at how they are doing security. I don't know if they have talked to tax security yet. That might be something that we might have to get them to do. So, security and governance. If, if they get to a point where we are happy with those two things, then I think we should consider them for incubation. That is that was my feedback reading through, you know, the updates that they posted as well as, you know, the updates that I got from Dave as well. Any questions here. Back to you. Okay. Which other companies are contributing. So, one example would be, I think, I forget whether it is Microsoft or Google days. Well, I think it was Google, Google was using for their Windows nodes, they're using Andrea, for example, so and they got a lot of collaboration through that mechanism. I can go look at. So what I think one place what they mentioned was, when somebody comes to them, they'll stay for a couple of, you know, PRs and issues and then they go away right like because, you know, they come here, because something that they are trying to do is not working. If they are happy then they move on. Right. So that, that is the kind of challenge that they are facing because, you know, at some point you need to get me dinner so you don't you don't want people who are just doing features right. So, that is the usual issue. Thank you. Thanks. Next up we have telepresence. Is there anyone from telepresence on the call. Okay. And the TOC representative that worked on their annual review. Amy or Jim, do you remember who that was? I don't believe we had anyone for this one. Okay. All right. Well, I will go through it. So, telepresence focus this time was around compatibility with service meshes. Working through an emulating pass through for all the features that are being exposed by the various cloud, cloud providers that are out there. The traffic agents they're working on making sure that it does not disturb the existing network policies and checks including providing network policies for system admins and specific constrained firewall requirements and instructions to configure load balancers. So, they're also looking to have it easier to deploy in the context of large clusters with multiple different kinds of applications. They want it to be easy to set up the Argo CD deployment of tele telepresence for example in cluster admins should have clarity on which configuration levers that they can tweak as well as the ability to push cluster wide telepresence configurations to users machines. So, the mass of the CNCF they're looking for expanding their user base with more contributors tutorials and improvement of the documentation. And they are looking to welcome contributors who have expertise with complex environments or specific use cases and share how they got telepresence to work for their particular use case, integrating with other tools, especially on cloud native ones. Does anyone have any questions associated with telepresence. One, one other thing that I wanted to say here was like, just like any other sandbox projects they are having the same issues around, hey, how do we increase our contributor base, how do we publish tutorials, how do we talk to others and improve engagement with other CNCF projects. So, you know, you know, that trend is there, right like so it's the same set of problems that they're facing here as well. Then the other one, I think, Amy you touched on it already is like when the happy part, everything is working, like if it's this, if somebody is doing something different from the happy part that they have documented, then they run into trouble. And that's because why they are requesting, you know, people to try out telepresence in complicated deployment scenarios. So they get feedback on that. So one thing I had in mind here was for these folks to somehow talk to end user community to get that kind of feedback. Maybe they can do a survey or something to and engage somehow with the end user community to see if folks are using telepresence and how to get enough feedback so they can update their docs and whatnot. Yep, makes complete sense. Yeah, anytime you were struggling with project adoption, it's usually the edge cases that catch everybody and inhibit that growth rate. So if you have experience with telepresence or not yet recommend trying it out or any of the annual sandbox projects that we were covering here today and then providing feedback to the projects via an issue, or I'm reaching out to them in their corresponding slack channels. Any other questions are on telepresence. Moving on, wasm edge runtime. Do we have anyone from the project on the call that wishes to talk about the project. And is the TOC sponsored. Yeah, I'm here. So for this project, I think, overall, it's on the right track it's growing fast, it's GitHub metrics, it really hails the pre active. And I also check these contributions, they are doing really great on in general, I but I do have two suggestions, regarding to this project, I think the first is, I noticed that majority of the maintenance, actually almost all the companies as well as the contributors are from a single company, which is, I think, still need to improve. The second part is, in regard to the adoption. You know when the assembly is essentially a cutting edge technology so we should not expect it that super super large scale but I do suggest that this project work on for example maybe publish some user studies, especially those, if those blog posts can help people understand how this project is helping them adopting when the assembly because this project position itself like it's, it's well, it tend to intend to make you develop deployed wrong when the assembly application faster either it has also have some killer features like a very fast machine for when the assembly I think all of those technologies are good. I would like to learn how they are helping real world customers or real world users. I think this is another area in terms of adoption, they can improve, and not just that not not super large skills adoption but more like more examples helping people understand how this project can benefit you can benefit other people. Yeah, that that are two suggestions I can give to this project. Awesome. Anyone have any questions. And the thing is, how this project compare with other projects means solving the similar problems in the similar areas that will be helpful for, you know, for adoption for users. Yeah, I agree. And also how is this project actually potentially can work with other members simply demand project I do see there are small overlaps but I think in most cases they can work together so it's just really, really be great if they can probably something talk about that. Yeah. So, there's a plan for the project to go into incubation. That's, that's our goal right now, or, or they don't have a goal yet. I think I have a goal to move to incubation. I think their timeline is, I think, end of this year but my personal suggestion as it may be a little bit fast. Not very practical considering for the first issue I said the maintainers are still from the single company and adoption we need to see a more, you know, more activities and improvement in adoption parts like another thing the end of this year is a practical Yeah. Thanks. Make sense. Okay, anything else. No. Alright, vineyard. Is there anyone from the project on the call that wishes to talk about it. If not, we can hand it over to Ricardo. Yeah. See anyone so I'll take it. So, vineyard is in memory. Data manager to help with the abstracting and zero coping memory sharing. And it's used for distributed data. Now, graphically, the miracle computing scientific computing she learning the project has seen quite a lot of activity in the last year since it joined sandbox earlier last year. So there were end users reporting adoption in years of scientific computing research facilities think one in France and also fintech. Which included one in production, a couple moving to production and testing phase. So, one of the goals of the project is to continue focusing on this and improving and user adoption. The GitHub activity shows and their stats show quite significant growth, especially in the number of individual contributors in total, which contributes, and the number of organizations that contributions as well. The main feature that they had it in the project was the added integration, supporting airflow, and this is in addition to other integrations they already have for machine learning, things like TensorFlow by George and others and also task. So that's quite interesting. And now they added support for air flows. They mentioned in their requests for the CNCF more opportunities to introduce the project to a broader set of end users and increase adoption so this was already mentioned a couple of times today, think it's a common one. They specifically mentioned the fact that they submitted a few proposals for coupon. And those were rejected so they see this as an opportunity to get more visibility. And a couple of notes on on looking at the project as well. I think the added maintainers are really good, but they are still from the same organization, she's Ali Baba. So they're a bit more diversity will help the project in the future. And that's really one of the focus, I guess. The other one is the fact that they mentioned that they don't want to apply immediately for integration. They want to focus on improving the set of end users and the option they have before buying, which I agree, which sounds like the point to do first. In addition to what they mentioned for improving visibility and adoption. They mentioned coupon proposals so they're maybe having shared proposals from the project and some selected end users will kind of make the proposals more a bit stronger. So maybe that's something to to look at. And the other one is that on the website is not immediately clear, which use cases the project focuses on so making it more clear and publishing more case studies would probably help with with the project as well. So at least the perception of the project from from potential end users. So I think that's all I have. Okay, are there any questions. No. Okay, I think that wraps up all of the sandbox reviews Amy. It does indeed. And like at this point in time we normally move for a vote. So here, I will go ahead and call a vote over in chat. It's to accept. Wait a second to be able to make sure that I'm getting everybody in here. Please just to see a vote. Thank you. I think I'm missing one Aaron Aaron might be missing you. And Kathy as well. Kathy Aaron please. Got Aaron's got Kathy's. All right, these pass we can move on. Thank you. Projects applying to move levels. Any updates here. I believe spiffy inspire I've already graduated. Give it 20 minutes. Okay. They have been fairly buried I met with them once but I don't think they've they've put in the effort yet. We'll just push that down always. I can speak up on flux real quick. They are ready to go into public comment period as soon as the freeze is lifted. Excellent. Let us track for being able to have that be a November 1. So, I'll put that on my minders. All right, any other updates in here. My last thing is the community awards are now open for nominations and I've made sure that all of them are actually accepting things. Yeah, go ahead. Okay, since we talked about freeze, if you go back one slide I want to make sure that people see this to see issue. Yes, I was going to put that at the end I was going to collect the note is basically like the nominations are open but that is that's all of my note so go ahead. So, the TOC issues 918, you know, there. This was the first time we tried out the freeze, and we saw some edge cases, as usual, right. And so we want to iterate. So we are collecting feedback from, you know, how we, you know, what are the kind of things that we talked about on this time for the freeze, and then how do we do better for the next time. So, if you have any feedback, please, you know, go to this issue and chime in. There's a lot of feedback there already so we have to make sure that we take into account, you know, all the things that people have said there. So, please look read and send us feedback. Ricardo. No, I was just clicking. Okay, you didn't actually have anything. That's fine. Yeah, go ahead. I would also add that for those of you that are interested in understanding more about the level of effort involved in going through due diligence due diligence refresh understanding the activities that the talk part participates in during those processes for graduation or moving levels. The thread on that issue is an excellent resource to understand all the things that take place that are not otherwise documented in the TOC repository at this current point in time. So I encourage everyone to take a look. If you are interested in pursuing becoming a TOC member in the future. This is a good visibility into some even just a small fraction of the work that goes into the work that the TOC conducts for the foundation. Back to you Amy. No, that's perfect. That actually leads me towards a coming attraction. The coming attraction for TOC elections will be talking about this keep con with America, but the nomination cycle kicks off in January for TOC and seating in the end of February. So, if like people people are interested in that that's coming up. And again, my last piece is like, if you have people that you want to nominate, please nominate them. We will be closing nominations next Friday. That is the 30th. So that we get a chance to be able to make sure that all of these are together for keep con with America. This is a great way to highlight key folks within your communities within your ecosystem. They're contributing their writing documentation. So I encourage everyone if you can and are able to please nominate someone from the community. Anything else on the community words. Nope, that was it. We now actually have some time for open questions. Not all at once. Well, if there's no questions yet, I do want to point out to everyone on the call that there were quite a few themes associated with several acts of the CNCF primarily around getting new contributors and increasing awareness and visibility of a lot of these projects specifically around documenting use cases and studies associated with the functionality feature set of these individual projects. So if you are a potential sandbox project on the call or we're watching after the fact, take heed. These are common problems for those of you that were part of the annual review recommend reaching out to the contributor strategy or checking out the wonderful documentation and resources that they already have available as a potential avenue of increasing your contributorship and working with other tags and groups and other projects to increase contributorship and visibility of the projects. Any questions. All right, we will consider this closed. We'll send everybody back into their day. It's good to see all of you. Thank you Emily for hosting. Yeah. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye. Thank you. Bye bye.