 We can set the April yeah is on that'd be good. Yep Yeah, I have a I have a bunch of file boxes that I slowly fill up And then as they get towards fall I then package them up and truck them off to the storage unit And I bought a nice small scanner Pete you'll remember I was wondering about like getting a scanner or whatever And I got a small scan snap from Fujitsu and the scan set series is very very nice They're just like really good scanners and this little one is a gem and it's kind of astonishing and it like moves very quickly It's not that small. It's the next size up Yeah, okay And and yet I find that I need to shift myself into okay. I'm going to I'm going to scan something now, right I need to do that even for shredding Where like if I if I have a bunch of stuff I just wait to shred because I don't want to do it in the moment. I gotta be in shred mode Yes, I do. I have a stack of stuff to shred I think that's I think of that standard standard practice Usually get to shredding once a month. I know a lot of people who have a you know, a little letter sized box or something where Shred stuff accumulates this That box right there is a is a cool scanner From Caesar. It's actually a little camera on a stand and all There this one looks really cool. It's a combo webcam You know drawing on stuff streaming cam scanner Oh interesting Yeah, so you can actually do a demo do demos with it and stuff like that. Yeah, and it folds and you know different ways how like The camera on Pete you've heard me say this before but the camera this small on my smartphone can take pictures as good as any Canon pocket phone I ever carried not as good as the you know canon DSLR Or you know, whatever Mirrorless thing I've got now, but but just about And and so and they're cheap as hell too Like the hardware cost is pretty darn low and you put one on the stick and and hang it over something and you like go Sort of crazy Let me come back and think about that. I've got a local question. Okay Um, interesting. I mean like I know that the web archive open sourced a bunch of um They're like scanner specs that you could slot a phone into but you had to keep it like at a particular angle and very steady And have the right lighting and all of that stuff All seems like too much to fit inside my new york apartment Yeah, yeah, alas. We moved to us a considerably bigger place a year ago And it's it's problematic because now we're expanding to fill the space And that that's just dangerous because when you downsize the opposite thing has to happen and then it's hard chris This bookshelf came about so I could do all the remote stuff with zoom for work and have a good background because directly behind that is On one side of me this side here directly behind that is my kitchen and directly behind there is my bar All the bottles of alcohol. So I was like need to put something in front of it. So it doesn't look unprofessional But uh, it was good because the books are expanding All around me and I keep To collect it. Yeah, there's yours. Yeah right out of view All I have to do is shift the camera a wee little bit There's the bar Uh flowers in the front of it and call it a day. That's right. Matty little camouflage and we're good Yeah, I uh, I think that uh I keep having to collect up books and shrink the collection that's immediately available to take those to the storage unit too Because that tends to overwhelm me. I now have another shelf Right to the right here that I cannot easily rotate the camera to get to But yeah Always more stuff to read Oh nice. Let me take a look The um the the one I've got I think it is actually a shine. Um, the one in that box up there. It's Uh, I'm I'm reasonably impressed with the company. It's a chinese company. Um, and they've got um book flattening technology Um I haven't tried the book flattening technology, but I think it would work. Okay. I I ended up trying to use this I think it's a shine for We're scanning photos and it goes up to about 200 dpi 200 actually 250 dpi or something like that It's not quite good enough. It's also the the field that it scans is only evenly lit Um, although they do have this really cool thing where they've got two sets of lights They've topped down light for stuff. That's not super reflective and then they've got side lights for stuff that is reflective Um, and I'm I'm pretty pretty happy with it and I'm looking forward to the new one. Um, which is pre-order still, but Chris we ended up down this path with the ambient boxes in pete's In pete's video prison Uh, we started talking about scanning documents and all that kind of stuff. I I hide them with a virtual background on zoom But hey, you're among friends I was I was gonna say I the best I've got is like a little, you know Small card index that I keep on the desk. I you know, so I can only be in awe at peter kominsky's collection I do have a thousand pound like 20 plus drawer card index that i'm refinishing But it's going to be a while before I can bring that in the house library or from where? uh, it is I don't think I've dated it yet, but it Is probably mid a mid 50s singer and it it oh, I actually have a it can Do a little small go and tell oh, they're big. This is the The thing so it's you know, this is a four by six card Is it for punch card? So it's much bigger than a punch card It's but it's also it's It's slightly larger than the old punch card size Which is I mean it's a kind of a punch card shape Uh, and it also has a weird mechanism in the bottom for the file dividers, which was uncommon So so if you got enough of those to basically stack them up and do an entire wall Would that be the 1900 equivalent of a video wall? Could be roughly. Yeah, kind of I'm just saying comedically metaphorically think think of I I'm thinking is that'll custom Well, this is the I mean you could do You could do settle custom with those index drawers, right? Yeah, I don't think this one was meant for business use Assuredly because it's so large It was not usually the smaller ones were the two or four drawers that you would put on your Usually not even on your desk. You'd do them on the credenza behind you if you had a small personal collection So there's only and only a handful of academics. I've ever seen go past, you know, eight or ten drawers At least in my research. So my favorite paper handling personal story is my first job was at mobile oil before it was ExxonMobil in the Transportation Department and every morning we came in and opened the mail and we would take the fifth revised page 242 And replace the fourth revised page 242 in a tariff from the federal The the ICC the interstate commerce commission Which which tariff and then we would put the fourth revised in the back because we had to do audit later And you you needed to keep every version of every page like the wiki And and then the rest of the day would be spent answering the phone as people from wherever Called up and said how much does it cost to move package lubricating oils from a keys rocks Pennsylvania to Allentown And you'd be like, what's the product and you go up and look at the product number and all that and oh And the file room was rotating file cabinets and like the old physical The old physical thing with three ring binders Very exciting. This is kind of like my stint at the hpe marketing department as a contractor It was like 1993 when the web was brand new and I was doing web programming actually some pretty fancy web web coding for the marketing department Um, the marketing department is was where all the competing factions, you know, the they were like three or four different Four or five different printer divisions and three or four different scanner divisions They all hated each other and all of them were like, you know So then everybody funneled down to the marketing department and we got to decide, you know, how to how to present Printers, you know, like like it was one cohesive product line instead of five warring factions But um and and then as as contractors, we were the ones who actually could get stuff done The staff was like in meetings literally all day every day not not doing anything But um, I'm poking around the internal Information system and found out that you could just order these Reprints of of articles, you know technical, you know internal technical articles on all kinds of like things So I'm like, you know, I'm like, wow, that looks really cool And so I put it in my card and pretty soon I've got a cart full of 20 papers of all kinds of random stuff Right and I click order and it's like you just order these things right and then they show up in the inter-office mail at some point So like three or four days later I I can get a visit from the manager who's you know, I'm working on her and she's like Okay, so it's cool But who the hell ordered all these random technical articles in the marketing fricken department, right? And it turns out that she had to pay for all of them. I was wondering if it was an inter-departmental charge or something Yeah, yeah, and it wasn't like, you know It's obviously if you need to you just order it and your manager pays for it But I was ordering stuff that she did not want it, you know She did not need in the marketing department But I felt so embarrassed and so bad and I offered to pay for them. She's like, no, no, no, it's fine It's no big deal, you know But out of my budget, it's not that big of a deal, but it was super fun But Polaris love that There were there were people who's as who like literally would It was also a massive it used to be an old manufacturing facility in the heart of Silicon Valley And it was this massive Shop that you would get lost in literally it was like as big as a mall and So you'd like weave your way it took like five minutes to walk from where you parked, you know In that end of the building to where you were so you'd walk by all these people There was one guy who literally all day every day was playing Solitaire or whatever, you know Snakes or bombs or whatever I forget, but it was like and you could see his the way it worked You could see his he didn't have boss mode like the whole time No, it's like whatever, you know, I'm playing playing my game like, okay Wow, that was weird um What Freedom sorry fellowship of the linky kind of things around people's minds at this at this point um, I have a bit of an update on the Thinking tools map please awesome. Um, and then I I kind of need to leave For another meeting thanks for coming back to me for about the time itself Yeah, no worries. I think we're and the us is because of daylight savings time We're an hour off from the rest of the world right now for this week. That might actually be part of So if if the time is hosted non us, yeah, I think explain it so um so that project is right now the three of us Matthew and bill anderson and me um, and um We ended up we've we've been doing asynchronous collaboration and I don't know we had I did a big move Matthew did a big move and then And then Matthew was sick basically so we've been kind of Off so today at massive wiki Wednesday, we had a great Kind of get together and got to go through some of the stuff We figured out a little bit how to distinguish tools and practices as we're Accepting those and putting them on the wiki and stuff like that I accidentally talked them into we want to do a card sorting exercise essentially on the dimensions we're talking about of how to judge tools And my immediate When I saw Matthew's got this great table of about 10 things And when I saw that it's like oh, I want to pull this into air table and think with it He's air table is a thinking tool to make more of them Judge them add to them and things like that and that seemed like a really natural thing for me to do So I suggested that and then Matthew said well should we just do it in the wiki and then I I'd like Yeah, we should probably do it in the wiki and but then he got talked into doing it in air table So we're going to do it in air table. I'm going to show them how how to do that next Monday So there's a meeting I will Meeting that we've got scheduled. I will post on the channel to do Dimension dimension card sorting in air table I was using air table as a thinking tool. Thank you um And then we had a interesting kind of side conversation about how you collaborate on wiki pages in the era of wiki plus git and so that was cool, but Um, maybe I'll write that up someday. Maybe I won't Uh, so it's going a little slow, which is I think it's fine. Um, I will post a link to the page that's got, um The dimensions I should catch up with this this group and the conversation because I'd love to also like synchronize All of us on the shape of the whole of of the project. How big does that anybody think it is? The the in the in the project plan, I'm I don't know if I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing in the project plan. Um We're we're still in the phase where it's uh me and Matthew and Bill just trying to orient ourselves enough to be able to come to The fellowship of the link team and say, oh look, we've got this little baby that maybe now we could like, you know, grow it up Um, so we're we're we're like pregnant with possibility more than we have an actual baby Uh, but So it's it in some ways, it's a little early. Um So this is uh, we have on a random totally random, uh, literally a totally random, uh domain right now But this is the a page in the wiki with the dimensions that we're working on um And then let me grab the calendar event for next week And it's if you it's don't please don't have FOMO for this But, uh That's an ugly link Oh, maybe maybe while i'm maybe a bit of patter while i'm Swapping links around, uh, i'm also right now working on some code that parses zoom chat files And there's a different couple different formats for that. So it's not It's it's funny. It's taken me hours and hours and hours And then i'm always feeling embarrassed because that is taking hours and hours and hours, but it actually Everything does no There's there's these weird kind of corner cases where Line endings are different. Um, they use sometimes they use a character a unicode character called line separator Hacks 2080 or something like that 2028 Um, and it's hard to see and if it if you bump into it, you know, it's not It's not obvious why you bumped into it kind of. Um, so anyway Um, so this is the meeting on monday And again my first impression of Matthew's maiden martyr draft Is that he's got some good stuff, but I think Probably one of the things that would be most useful For pushing part of the agenda that we're all hoping for his His openness axis is too dense by a magnitude and I So there's kind of openness as you talk about, you know, free and open source stuff An api is an import and export But I think if you pull out open standards Is a separate item or a separate access. Yeah Uh, you'll get a lot further a lot farther and I love that it's high up and one of the first things on the table which then kind of Gives it that you know extra Or at least in this presentation depending on how you present it it may Change the shape of what that data looks like, but I think by saying There are Progressive sets of standards that we're trying to support here so that my tool will interoperate with every other tool Focusing on that as the the thing Because a lot of developers Particularly developers will look at this as a checkbox exercise. How many of these can I check the boxes on? And they'll check the easy ones And the hard one is supporting the standards So that the data you put into my tool will work with 10 other tools and that's a harder problem And it's the problem. No one wants to play with no one work wants to work on There's no glory in having the best standard or the best support standards Which is how you end up with siloed data and communities and all the rest Um, so I think that one thing out like yeah, that's a really good one and maybe I'll go back to the recording and and try to Take some of that wisdom and move it into Move into that page or the the collaboration around that page I I think the the the one thing is that the the group here and there's a few others that I'm in flotilla for one where we actually judge Judge fitness and and beauty With the amount of interoperability we have rather than the other way around right? So, um, there is It's small right now. It's a few folks like us, but there is a movement to Be interoperable rather than, you know, making sure that you get more boxes ticked or something like that I mean, I there's So I I attribute it more to having done work with ton tech cellic You know, you need to have a tool that You actually use and if you're not using it, then it's the total loss A lot of people go out. Hey, I'm gonna build this great tool for the masses But they don't even use it themselves and that's Then and usually it results in the thing suffers from Ui because you're not actually Self dog food in it, which is not the greatest metaphor, but You know is that thing and then second Can I can I build it so that it will work with other things? Yep, or those two kind of together at the same time become the two big axes and then all the rest are nice to have beyond and in going past so Another thing to note with the dimensions is Matthew's very keen on Ending up using a minimum number of them like six or eight something that would be useful for a newbie and also something that would be like visually easy to represent on a spider graph Or a radar map spider graph Rather than so I think there's going to be a tension I I can I can kind of imagine For some of us we'd really be interested in you know, 20 or 30 You know dimensions of a tool with a lot of fine grain detail and Matthew's pushing the other way we want to Maybe not densify but that at least kind of coalesce things that aren't important to you know Anybody who's not a specialist so just something to think about not Well, or the you know use the perito principle. What are the yeah, what are the 20% of the things that are going to get you most of the way there that and particularly ones that people don't think about or put The importance on a lot of the other kind of must-haves Are features that you can fall off a turnip truck and have in a problem And most people will because they're the easy things that you don't have to put the thought into So it's what are the things they're not going to think about that are a little harder to do but that are more necessary Yeah, focus on those and then just leave the rest because they'll handle themselves. Yeah Folks, I apologize, but because of the way the timing works this week I need to take off to another meeting. Thank you and Pete you explained what happened to my calendar perfectly It was the times of difference Yeah, and I and I didn't I didn't check this brain to actually double check that the time was funny and shifted So next week it's back at 11 p.m. Pacific, which is great. And then is matthew feeling better is he Matthew is feeling better. Yeah, okay 100% but he's he's very good. Yeah at this point. Cool. Thank you Thanks for thanks for coming back Yeah Cheers all I do think there might be something interesting to talk about in all of this movement over to Just this this talk of like use it yourself first and then interoperability It reminds me that so much of I think onboarding users requires that if we have a level of interoperability, right like The best way to get users is for it to easily integrate into what they're already doing I don't know it all of the Um People onboarding on to mastodon this week It's an interesting to see a bunch of tools pop up that are like We're gonna You sync your mastodon and twitter account and then hope everybody else thinks the mastodon twitter account and that pulls it up Or I found one that was like we're gonna scan everyone you follow to see if they've tweeted And at at like regex structure or have changed that to their profile It's just interesting to see these very weird ways that people sort of are pulling on I don't know. I don't know if there's a better one, right? Like theoretically you sign on with twitter, but that would negate some of the point Yeah, yeah, it's it's funny because mastodon is an very imperfect substitute for twitter for a bunch of different reasons And the community like there's a whole bunch of people scratching their heads going Do I really want to go there? Is it working? What how does it work? What am I doing? And there aren't that many other good options out there. It's weird Yeah, I mean I think oh go ahead chris. I find some of the small subtle social cues to be even interesting so it's we We don't do these patterns on this platform or this platform doesn't do these things and that's a good thing because x And it's more about We're here to make kind of a friendly more happy place So, you know, essentially it's an adjust your expectations And enjoy this happier space because of it And I see an awful lot of that so even things like in micro dot blog people saying, you know, there's no algorithmic feed here There's no likes and no retweets So if you want to tell somebody you really love their post you physically have to type it out and and You know be a person and reply to them rather than just send them this like Smallest fatic symbol of nothing Yeah, I think it's Oh, okay. Yeah, I think it's partially like These things do not perfectly map to each other and where you're seeing The friction in people who are adopted get unsure what's going on the friction comes out of Um The the space is where the maps don't match up right like a really good thing is an example of something like the local I see several people are very often confused about right where why does this show up in a local? Why does this get amplified? Why is this person available in my search and this person isn't why the hashtags not search across all instances? um whereas like Some people are going to come in and see that as a I don't understand. This is confusing It's that people are like, well, that's a feature not a bug right and some things It's interesting because I think like what unlocked using mastodon in many ways for me was the realization that one Don't be on the main instance. That's bad like the main instance is bad You're not going to get what you want out of it because The instances are designed more to be like A twitter local or sorry not a twitter local the instances local Is designed to be more like a twitter list right so like You want to be A main on one instance, but also you really want to lurk On a bunch of other instances right like I have the main instance i'm on and then i'm on like An artsy instance where I have absolutely nothing to contribute But I like seeing the art and then i'm like also on um Like a socialist instance Where it's people talking politics and like the rules for talking politics there Very different than the rules talking politics on some of these other instances and that's intentional um Cole collectiva that social is the one that i'm on um lurking um I think that's how it's pronounced But uh Yeah, and like that's sort of the secret to unlocking like twitter the algorithm sort of makes Lists for you Right where you're seeing a subset of the people that you want to follow And the people that they follow and they engage with and amplify Um on your feed naturally because the algorithm sort of caters it But I think the the thing that people have the most trouble understanding with mass done is No, no not uh here. Let me get the right url. Um The thing that I think most people have the trouble understanding on mastivan is that like It's not just that you can't cater it. It's that The point is to fracture into lists into fracture into um Instead of lists instances right like But the minute the instance gets too large it becomes less useful and a worse experience Which is why Mastodon dot socials the worst instance Yeah, that makes sense. I think there's also like a difference between like a a mask on an activity path, right? I like Uh apparently, you know, so muscle and actually it's actually quite conservative in my experience when it comes to brand and features And they have pushed a lot against like any kind of algorithm algorithmic feeds Which is not the case for in pleroma. I think for example um and It to some extent, uh, I think I mean Everything you're saying is is correct from mastodon, but that's only mastodon. I think so that's the that's the other realization Which is like I think the favors can fit both or like presumably all A preferences in that sense and also there's the blue sky protocol protocol which Is twitter people basically trying to invent and uh a protocol to open source twitter exchange Across any kind of tool which is a very interesting thing, but The people doing it are sort of the wrong people. It's kind of weird Uh, and there's a coming there's a coming soon You know thing you can sign up to be to be told when it's available But who knows when it's going to be available because this would be the perfect moment for it to be available All right, but I don't think it really is intended to be that right Like they didn't hire the right people to do that and the current version of the protocol does not appear intended to do that It's something else Like one of the lead developers there is the person who built hyper and dat right, uh Yeah paul frizzy, uh And that's not A twitter right like you could do twitter on it But that's an after effect of the intention of the system Which is i'm very interested in blue sky and i'm very interested in exploring the protocol I have to like set aside time to do it. Yeah, I mean What what happened there? I don't know, you know, do you you check out when it was around citizen? Yeah, yeah, no, I followed that very closely. I thought it was very interesting I mean once again like not really twitter In the same way that has done. It's not really twitter. I was so Weird, I guess I you know when I saw it. I'm knowing that paul frizzy was who I meant. We'd have that call One year ago or so I was super excited about citizen And like people got really excited about citizen and then he essentially seemed to lose interest He wasn't interested in like actually driving the proof of concept of like, you know, what an alternative to twitter could be like He was more interested in like a protocol level Things and at some point he was like, yeah, I learned all I needed. It was an experiment. So he just shut it down. Yeah Yeah Yeah, it was weird seeing that Right, I think I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, no, please go ahead I just say I think like citizen like a bunch of the other projects because like he also shut down I mean, he didn't really shut down but basically stopped on the beaker, right? Like I think for him he was interested in using these to understand how Protocols like this could be used like I read his blog. He did this great series about like Why decentralization not too long ago? Um, I can pull that up. It's like real quick. Um But like I think it's really interesting in the sense of like what he's trying to figure out is like How do I start from zero and build back up? Towards the products that people want with different assumptions and that's why I think of blue sky as well Like I thought of this even before he got more involved It's very clear that blue sky is heavily inspired by like hyper dat whatever we want to call it. Um But like It's clearly like okay. You want something that ends up fulfilling the same product space as twitter But what if we make none of the same assumptions to get there? What if we start from a clean slate and it seemed to me like I followed this in development Because I was very interested in how he was doing the development not because I thought it was going to be a finished product Because it was very clear to me that that was what he was trying to figure out right like What if it's something Else right like what if our underlying systems are different and our top is the same this sort of Actually, it's interesting because this is sort of back to what I was saying earlier Right like it's the interoperability question. You want to create something that web people are already on and used to They can use But if you build the underlying technology very differently you can move them towards something else Completely. Yeah. Yeah. So it's sort of like a stopgap or bridge So is there a is there a good answer here right now like like given that given that the presenting problem is omg twitter was taken over by martians Or at least want to be martians. I think that's actually a good joke Like like Is there any kind of good solution here because like activity pub is overbuilt is what I've heard from programmers But like there's a whole bunch of things that are close but not quite even a good replacement Which is astonishing given that it's just twitter we're talking about Yeah, yeah, well, I mean it's an interesting It's a very good question. I think activity pub is the best we have Even though it has limitations and it is sort of like in in practice sort of like So very often it means master Even though it's a particular implementation with its own limitations So I'm I'm not aware of anything that is as um as close to like letting Users get like a similar user experience. Yes Thanks uh, yeah Um, I think it could be scaled probably but I and that's one thing that uh, and you know like to some extent You know, there's this joke right in silicon valley. I guess which is like everybody can build twitter in a weekend I mean my all the things that make it interesting. Yeah, like, you know, like users and so on Uh, and being like there in the right time to actually be able to ramp up to that uh, so what I actually I had a few conversations with uh, with um Gateron, you know the mastone lead developer And now there's like a code developer and you know, like she seems very very cool but like In general, like I'm I'm personally a bit disappointed with the mastone Just because it doesn't seem to be pushing them a lot much and uh And it and it has this this pattern where like the features are like lack of features Yeah, yes, which I I can understand why other people want that Uh, uh You seem to beam in there for a sec chris. Yeah. Yeah My camera is doing weird stuff. I don't know what it is. Oh, you're just rematerializing from the another Yeah, yeah from somewhere But I don't think it's enough to just be able to say like oh our features that we don't have features Um, and you know to some extent, you know, for some of the algorithmic fees For me, I really think it's like it's not good or bad. It depends on the algorithm. No, this is something that you know But I found that a lot of the people that are I interact with in the in the failure verse Have these are very negative algorithmic is what twitter and favor are doing Yeah, that's just like forsaking, you know, like forsaking the tools of humanity to corporations. Yeah, I feel Yeah, I think that's a really good point And like I think the thing is of course right like you could build something very different on activity pub That takes the mastodon metaphor and runs with it in interesting ways. In fact, there's like a really interesting What the hell is this platform called that I can't remember where it's like act where it's like mastodon But it's also extremely different in terms of how it works from mastodon I see if I could I'm gonna say me's like, you know, have you seen lemmy identica maybe that's it. Which one? I can't figure out what platform it is. Let me see if you do this with the red No, no, like it's still Oh, sorry. Go ahead No, I mean, I think that shows the potential activity about yes, miski. That's it Oh, yeah, yeah, miski. Yes. Yes. I think that's this is one of the japanese Wait, where did miss me get type in the shot? Um, I I just found it through the code. Um, I will pull it up I think it's mostly japanese, but it's been adopted. It's been adopted by Different groups like one of my I have an account on a miski instance. That's specifically like um Just art people that evolved from people who are passionate about I I think evolved from people who are passionate about like anime stuff, but it's really just general art now um And I find like this is the point right like you could build on top of it The question is how do you and what do you bring it? I had a really interesting conversation about like advertising Recently, which is like the mastodon lead is super anti advertising, right? and these sees not having advertising on mastodon as like a Once again, like algorithms. It's a feature not a bug But yeah I don't necessarily agree, right because In theory the way that he imagines and that other people imagine mastodon organizing is what i'm saying I said earlier, right? Essentially once your interest group gets large enough you split off into a different instance but in actuality There's going to be centralized entry points like mastodon that social yeah, and The ability for anyone to scale them is very restrictive Because things cost money, right? And it would be nice if We thought like it there was a really good video that came out over the week I think over the weekend. That's it the top of that twitter thread um about spam and the conclusion that came to watch it is that like advertising is the colonizing force of capitalism in internet spaces Right almost every internet space starts with the same sort of thinking that mastodon does Which is oh everyone's going to share resources. We're all going to contribute. It's going to be small. We'll have a lot of control Um and people will sort of self moderate But inevitably either it fails because it's built on somebody's personal interest and they lose interest Or it's built on somebody's personal budget and they can't afford it anymore Or it gets democratized Yes, you get what I think or the fourth option a cop So I have here how to pitch it. I'm a social cop admin And we run the instance. We're about like 1.5 k users. So it's not huge Uh, but it's like a slow growth instance And and this and he will go back to I think like So I I'm a huge believer in cops because I want to believe essentially like, you know bias check But that that's the the other option right because you know, like just feedback and you know, the social cop Has a suggestion of like one back a year essentially Uh, we make do we have extra money essentially um So that could be essentially like the community funding Without going to advertising although I recognize that you know the advertising option It does seem I mean, you know, I work for an advertising company. So Yeah I think it's not just that though like I like the idea of a co-hop co-op and I think like there's attempts to push in that direction right, I think sort of like The big one. Yeah, the big one is um Like pinboard is sort of the best example of this right where every person who joins pays money And each new joiner pays a little bit more money as the cost goes up um But the the downside of it is at the end of the day, it's still dependent on a much smaller group of code and infrastructure maintenance contributors um Like it can't just be paying in in that situation whereas like The and and the problem is there are people who could potentially contribute But onboarding them is blocked by them having to pay Whereas like the thing that advertising enables Is the ability to do the inverse Right, you could pay out to people to help to who are interested in contributing completely Right because like this is the thing that I have a problem with because there's a big conversation about data co-ops in the ad space, right The problem is that a co-op is not just about What you put in in monetary form, but what you put in is work as well And a lot of the and and even more so like true cooperatives um Are more like unions, right? That's the other model for a cooperative organization and there it also is about controlling the the How you get compensated and controlling the conditions of your labor uh And that gets into like some really interesting like I have a very long essay that i'm trying to figure out about this which is like Are interactions with social media inevitably become labor the minute that an algorithm is involved? Go ahead sherry um So I love what you're talking about and I have I have some vestigial memories There's a there's a book about the quakers. I think called quakers money and morals and I think a piece of what it talks about is Actually, I'm thinking about another another book called traveling brothers Which talks about guilds and it's a nice history of how guilds worked and what it was like to be on tramp And there's a bunch of things I can say from there But there's this moment where the industrial revolution starts to hit and in fact the enclosure movements start to hit And in and sort of the early capitalists realized they need to take apart the guild system They need to undermine it So they so they begin taking actions that destroy the pyramid of how guilds sort of worked Which was the slow progression of you know, you get apprentice yeoman master Kind of thing everybody knows that the the etymology of the term masterpiece Is that was the the thing that that a yeoman had to create in order to become a master So if you were in the furrier's guild you had to make a beautiful fur coat or whatever And that was your masterpiece that that was your phd pieces basically to become a master So there's so there's this very interesting shift from guilds to unions And then there's a lot of union labor union history that I don't know That is the reason why the the right hates and demonizes unions But unions are a defense mechanism against capitalism which colonizes everything around. I love the statement You just made I wrote it in the chat just to remember it and I put it in my brain because because capitalism steps in and like Sharing economy what a great idea. Let's do that and then like hey a bunch of vcs pour a bunch of money into uber Which is a predator in this field and and Basically undermine and eat the whole notion of the sharing economy Creating a slave labor camp for people who have a car in some weird way And have no say over pricing over anything else and the poor little You know taxi co-ops or radio co-ops that try to stand up an app and compete with them get no attention Have no play go you know go no place and then there's this other interesting thing that We used to have a lot of mutual aid societies and and so insurance comes out of mutual aid And cooperatives come out of mutual a whole bunch of stuff started with people just saying hey How do we pool some money for risk and how do we help each other when things are bad? And that thread happens in parallel to this other thing about guilds and unions And and what it what it feels like we're doing right now Is we're trying to find our way back to some of the good nuggets that existed in those early things like hey Apprenticeships are really cool guilds had apprenticeships You know the mutual aid is really cool Why don't we sort of figure out how to do that and now we have these weird techie platforms that are all trying to reinvent How society works and the crypto people are like oh we got this We're just going to create a cryptocurrency. We're going to put up a big dashboard Of projects and everybody's going to vote with their crypto and earn crypto and you know we got this It's just a marketplace because markets are perfect because we're all libertarians here And and i'm like that just ain't gonna work right because that's somehow It's somehow ignorant about human nature and the complexity of projects and the commons and a bunch of other things where it fails So so part of what i'm trying to figure out here is okay great So what are the platforms and protocols that we're going to take for granted 100 years so now because I think that they're based on these old things Yeah, and I think that's a really on the conversation You know, I think that's a really good point and that sort of gets to like what I was thinking in that put a threat about ads which is that like The way to get back to these things that are like that type of model Is intrinsically Anti-capitalist and so if you want to return to it Like you can't half measure to that inevitably either You go to some form of revolution or it is defeated by capitalism um, and I think the model that a lot of these internet projects take is that We're going to defeat capitalism From zero like that's that's what we're going to do But the problem I have with it right besides that being very difficult Like I said, I said this in the threat right like I would love to kick off the revolution Tomorrow on mastodon. Let's do it. But that's not realistically going to happen. And so like the alternative in my mind is there's a really good book about um unions modern unions by um I can't remember her name. I'll look it up after I'm done talking but like She talks a little bit about this and I don't think it's really sort of the topic She was trying to get into but as I'm reading it. I'm thinking about this more and more which is that you can't get to the revolution that you want in these spaces until people feel safe um And to get people safe You need to have an intermediate step Right. So like you need the and that's what I was thinking about advertising right like If you don't if you don't create a situation where you're creating safe private privacy friendly non-surveillance versions of advertising that can allow people to Host these things more easily make money off of hosting these things and make a living Then they'll never get to the point where there can be capable of contributing to a revolutionary movement And like it if you don't create that step inevitably The bad version the worst version of advertising will colonize that space So and this is where like I am going into a space where I need to think more about it And you probably need to read more about it, right? But you're digging in exactly the right place. This is what right Like it needs to be an anti-imperialism approach And I don't know enough about that to understand. What are the successful tactics there? Right like very I did some reading up and like there's this idea of like Targets of imperialism saying we're going to create our own Sort of legal system in order to say no, you can't come in here. You have to we have rules um And I don't know how successful it is or how common that is right But like that's the thing that I am thinking sort of tours, which is like If the space if we want these spaces to not be colonized or disrupted by capitalism then you need to create sort of a Rule set that protects against it Or a defense mechanism that that causes capitalism's attempt to take over to backfire or something like that. I mean, you know I I think about puffer fish really often or Toads that have poisonous yuck on their backs because they're kind of slow moving us up when they jump But when when anything else eats them, it's really unpleasant So, um, it completely is like offensive mechanism for me like This course is amazing. By the way, I would love to have like I have to go in two minutes because I have a board meeting I'm still at work This is like this is one of my favorite topics and I know what you're saying I am and and here you all these are this Point of the books these to me this conversation leads into the commons As perhaps the the level of organism that can actually develop the defenses and then, you know, there's that this vocabulary for some like enclosure of the commons, which I see as you know, like and the study of how to Prevent enclosure that I think goes very much in this direction And uh, yes, and I and I think that uh advertisement is like sort of like the you know Tapping into that seems like a bit like, uh Cutting open an artery, you know of capitalism I'm drinking his blood. We now this People's blood or suddenly we're in a queue and on plot Right, right. Um, but you know what uh, yes promising. I will have to say Oh fight like hell. Okay. Good because I put a book about unions in the in the chat, uh, which is apparently not the right one All right, I don't that might be good, too. I don't know it and I haven't read the other one that I put in the chat I just had it in my brain Like hell the un-told history of american labor looks really cool Uh flancia, really nice to see you. Thanks for being with us. Yeah. No, sorry. I was late. I was at work Yeah, so Mystery solved Man, that was funny Mystery solved which oh, yeah He showed up at 11 Pacific going. Where is it? Yeah. Yeah, and I had I already like had an issue with social call meeting early in the week. Yeah, it's like, uh But it's it's nice some chaos dams My favorite reminder of it. I there's a picture That I saw of some archaeologist at Stonehenge doing some digging work And somebody recaptured it as our engineers at Stonehenge are, you know, moving the stones to Leave british summertime It's gonna be it's gonna be held Yeah, for daylight savings Because when I see you, thank you. Excellent I'm adding fight like hell to my brain. Oh, it's a very recent book 2022 Yeah, um the author, uh kim kelly Um got the contract off of some really great coverage. She did For teen vogue on unionization. Why is teen vogue so unexpectedly good? Yeah, I don't know. Uh, well, I think it's because there is space to do revolutionary thinking Because there are young people who have no pre-conceived assumptions Is the answer um, but That and somebody having the money and the editorial bandwidth to try and pull it off. Yeah Yeah, not to which maybe they have less of now Uh Yeah, I think it's I think it's very interesting to think through What the defensive measures are that give us safety and this is the place where I am Like least qualified to have the least knowledge at all right like I couldn't tell you who has successfully executed an anti-imperialist strategy um Maybe I can give you I can give you an example of a space you can look for to see the shift socially and culturally so um and I think I have it on the orange book up here behind me is um David graver and david wengro's book the dawn of history the dawn of everything the dawn of everything um unless they wrote a second one that Well, that was supposed to be part of a series of three and Graver didn't live long enough. Yeah, I think they get to the next two Um, but I'm hoping wengro will have the research and be able to pull it off um but essentially they look at Our modern idea the modern American idea of freedom and liberty And they trace it back historically And it really comes from indigenous americans And thinkers who left america and went to britain and france And had conversations about how their societies were structured And all these enlightenment thinkers saw and read and interacted with them And wrote about how can we throw off our imperial owners And reshape ourselves more like these indigenous people and the societies and cultures And they took bits of those ideas And formed a revolution and america Took that up And a lot of it went Essentially through writings of travel logs The people in europe owned and read And had in their homes And it kind of slowly seeped in and then the u.s threw off britain using war And then shortly thereafter the french did the same thing Part of the issue is they they only took certain chunks of that Information and knowledge and subsumed it and didn't subsume the entirety Of the rest of the indigenous cultures that we're saying here's how we do it And so we're left with Kind of an in-between space between that old imperial world and a new Kind of capitalist one So the you know you can look at that as a model of how was it done? How did that happen? And you know people obviously The rich americans were unhappy With the status quo and the rights they weren't getting Compared to the the british people Got better representation or some semblance of representation So, you know, but the tough part is that's you were you also require a big sea change of a lot of people being unhappy And at least enough of them willing to Jump at have something and have something to move to So, you know, they take small revolutions to get everyone to move to something like a mastodon or You know, I the indie web space is great and a lot of it works