 Ie, i'r salio. Felly, rydyn ni'n gwneud ymwneud i'r rhaid. Yna'n sesio cerddur lleol. Mae'n gweithio'r Professor Amymol Sancys. Rydyn ni'n gweithio'r gweithioedd yr arddangos a'r dynod, nid oedd yma'r siwhau yn ymddiol. Felly, rydyn ni'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Ymddiol? Ymddiol. A gyddi'r ideaes efallai ysgrifennu'r gweithio. So any question is welcome probably by mutual questions and debates amongst you too. Professor Manuel Sanchez, associate professor of the University of Rio, is that correct? Yes, Federal University of Rio. Federal University of Rio will talk about, so what's the tribalisation? What is it? Artistic action preserves space, cultural identity or tourist ritualisation. And then Yan will tell us about your world without a manual and the work he is doing recycling objects. Thank you. Thank you for introducing me as a professor. In fact I'm a retired professor for the Navy. And I'm going to try to make it a little bit more informal. Because in fact this kind of space is a little bit formal. One guide behind the table and the audience on the other side. This is not so nice, especially in an occasion like this, where everybody knows something to cheat to other people. So I start saying this and also remember you that there is a long time that I do not speak English. A long time that I'm not more in the school. So sometimes I'm going to make a little bit of mistakes and I hope you'll forgive me. This is a research that I'm doing in another university in Rio. It's a Catholic university that used to be in the Federal University of Rio. And nowadays I'm doing this research for the Catholic universities on this issue of artistic intervention during the World Cup and the Olympics. You know that the World Cup is right beginning in Brazil, particularly in Rio. And also in 2016 we're going to have the Olympics there. Those are huge events. A million people came to Rio and Rio is a cultural landscape according to UNESCO. So it's really beautiful. And the question is how is going to be this relationship between the native guys and the people that are coming just to consume this kind of landscape and things like this. And what is going to be the role of artists in trying to create an identity not only with the people living in Rio, but also with the people coming to the city. Because in fact this is a world heritage. This is not more a local heritage. So this is the first step of the research. And this first step I made some interview with some artists and some other interviews with some public officials responsible to manage the world heritage area. From the interviews I extracted some pair of oppositions. You know that social science normally anthropology or sociology or those kind of social science. Normally we used to try to analyze the discourse of the interview with extracting from those discourses some pairs of oppositions. That I should say commands the tough that they have when they look to some object of analysis. So I extracted four pair of oppositions and I'm quite sure that this kind of analysis would be nice to understand the relationship between natives and visitors. And also what is the role of the artists in doing this passage between these two groups. The first pair of oppositions is between exotic and native. If you look to the pictures, you're not saying I don't see much difference between the exotic and the native. What do you mean by this? What interview people mean by creating these oppositions between exotic and native. Look at the beginning I was in doubt I was using exotic and doginals. But in fact the best way is exotic and native. Begin with exotic. What does it mean? It's X but it means that it's a vision that is outside the object. And you see there, I don't know if you can repair this, but you see that in the first image you have the people playing with these figures of balls and the head and things like this. Brazilian guys always have a football in their heads. And the audience that is behind in the stands. In the other side this is the image of the Brazilian carnival. And in the other side there is no audience, everybody is participating. There is no people looking to the exotic. There is no people with this kind of glaze, exotic glaze. All of you are inside participating of the party. So this is an important difference in the natural. Of course if I'm going to another country that I do not know the parties, well probably outside too. So this is the difference between a tourist that is outside and a native that is inside the parties. And this is the first contradiction, the first opposition, the opposite opposition, the contradiction that I found in the interviews of artists and officials. This is another opposition, another powerful opposition that I found in the interviews. And this is because part of the interviewed people were artists. And the other part were officials, people, authorities, people responsible for protecting the irritation. So there is a contradiction between preservates and usage. From the point of view of the official, the most important thing is to preserve the cultural irritation. From the point of view of the artists on the contrary is to use the irritation. For instance, here is Copacabana, just in Panama, during some day. You see there a lot of people using this heritage. This is the heritage, this is the beach that is a heritage, a real heritage. And the other side is Pong de Asuca, corcovado, which crashed the regime in a beach that is a private media. It's not very well known beach for the tourists. The local people know very well, but they do prefer Copacabana because for the native guys, this is not only to Beth. This is confiliality, this is interaction. This is to be with the other guys, to be with the other guys that are identical to them. So the tourists are looking for the difference. And you have seen this in the first slide. They are looking for the difference, the guy with the ball and the hat. But the natives are looking for the identical. And that's why we say cultural identity. So the third opposition that I found there was about the sacred and the profane. Normally people think that sacred is much more related with religiosity. This is not true. Soccer, for instance, could be sacred. In the sense that there is a deep emotion when you play soccer, especially when it is for the national team, there is a space that is sacred for one team that should be preserved. And there is another space that is the other team that should be preserved by the other team. And the idea is just to disintegrate the other team. And people will leave this emotion profoundly, except if you are a person that is like baseball, for instance. And then you go to see the static of the game. But if you leave the game, then you are going to leave the emotion for your team, national team or local team. You can have this difference in local team. And so the sacred is much more to leave this emotion in a sense that you have to preserve something, you have to save something against the other. And the profane is the opposite of this. And so you can see for the second image, there is a woman pretending to be cross the redeemer. For a man, for some men particularly, or even for some Catholic women, this could be a profanation. Of course, on the other side, for some women, this could be a political gesture in the sense that she is saying that God is not a man, God is a woman. And this is the same that we have seen in the case of football match. We saw ways different positions. The sacred for one is the profane for the other and vice versa. Well, the first position that I found in the interviews is between cultural identity and tourist conservation. You see that nowadays images or heritage can be captured through a mobile phone and immediately communicates with thousands of people all over the world with different cultures. But basically when we are tourists, we are making photos about the beautiful, about the ideal. We go to a country and we see a church, we see a landscape, we see even a people exotic, people for you. And then you got a picture and send to mama, hello mama. Look, what a beautiful guy or a beautiful woman is this with the ball in the head and things like this. So, normally do not photograph the ugly, the violence, the poverty. Just the artist and the professional do that. When you are tourists, you are not looking for a poor guy in Venice and trying to photograph this poor guy or trying to photograph violence in Venice. You are trying to look for the beautiful space in Venice. And then you see in this second image, this is a so-called wild safari. So they are visiting a favela in Rio as if it was a safari. On the other side are the violence of the wild, I would say, even the animals. And this side are we making photos in this case of this violence and uglyness and poverty. But in fact these three things do not pertain to the hotel lobby. When you go to the hotel lobby, you don't see photos on these aspects of any city. On the other side, so this is a kind of touristy consummation. And the other side you have the cultural identity in the sense that, for instance, nobody knows what is this. This is a game that we play in the bits of Rio, a game called Altinio. Tourists never understand this. Even the Carioca guys, the people that lives in Rio, do not understand what Altinio is. Because Altinio is not a game when a person has to win the other. It's a game that everybody participates like a little bit like the indigenous, the Brazilian indigenous from Amazon, that the game has to end match it. Nobody has to win the game. The game has to end 0 to 0, 1 to 1, 2 to 2. And this is absolutely strange for a person that is not from that culture. Well, this is the four basic pair of oppositions that I found in this interview. This is important for me because I'm going to apply this to construct some questionnaires in the second phase to apply to tourists and Carioca to see what they think about each other. So, what all these have to do with our question of artistic intervention in heritage? I would say sacred space of heritage. Well, let's see. This is a symbol of Rio. Everybody knows. This is Christ the Redeemer. Probably you don't realize here because he is not seen in the top of the mountain. Normally you see the photo of Christ in the top of the mountain guarding the city of Rio. We normally say that God is Brazilian. In fact, God is Carioca and he is looking for the city. But in this case, the most amazing is that this statue was made by one French guy, an Italian guy and one Brazilian, three artists that made this image in 1930. And this image became the symbol of Rio, the symbol of a cultural identity. So three foreigners, or at least two foreigners, two different guys that made the identity of Rio. And also it was a work of art because at this moment to make an article for an image of a Catholic church, it was almost a profanation. It was necessary to convince the Cardinals who say it's perhaps a pope to say, no, this is a very modern 19th artist. This is very modern, but it represents a new Christianism. Anyway, this symbol is a symbol of Rio, but it was made by, not by a tourist, but by an artist that were from another country. This also is a symbol of Rio de Janeiro. Both are included and preserved area by UNESCO. So as a cultural landscape, these waves are so beautiful and so identified with Copacabana that everybody in the world would see these kind of waves, remember Copacabana immediately. Well, the strange is that this design was not made by a Brazilian and even not made in Brazil. It was made the first time in the Largo do Rosil in Lisbon in 1843, 110 years before it was implanted in Copacabana. So the symbols of identity in a cultural landscape were not from the natives, were from outsiders, but not tourists, artists from outside, because the artist has this capacity to communicate, to oscillate between the poles of this opposition. Also this is Flamengo's Park. This was pulled amongst probably the most important landscape of Brazil. He made a huge intervention, a huge artistic intervention in Guanabara Bay. He dumped part of Guanabara Bay. Nowadays he would be imprisoned because he dumped a place that is a heritage of the human rights. Now, at this time when Bournemouth did this park, the park itself became the word of heritage. It is included in the UNESCO list. It's really an amazing park with native, we are in time. Can I conclude this in one minute? Oh, nothing, anyway. This is another contribution for foreigners. This is not an artist's interpretation of the reality, but in a way it provides possibility to see Guanabara Bay. The heritage is not only physical. The characters are also heritage. This is a painting from Jean-Baptiste Desbray, a French painter that went to Brazil and registered the existence of those street vendors. These street vendors existed till today on the beach you see today with the clothes, with the Copacabana waves. Also, the artists of these two vendors, one of Tapioca Cooke and the other of Matt, they are municipal heritage in Rio de Janeiro. Everybody knows this, including the tourists. This is an artist that used to perform with, you see, those are planets. They put up planets that designed it with board guards. With this, he walks along the streets of any cities in Brazil. It's a great artist of his suit. Anyway, there are many artists and arts that are not incorporated in a heritage. This is a very important Spanish artist that did this head, put it in front of Sugarloaf, and it was withdraw from the Botafol Beach two months later under a lot of Greeksism. The curious that he did this order, the proud fountain, which is a heritage of Chicago, is a great artist, but the population, the audience did not identify it with this. It was because he put Eamonja as a black goddess, but in fact the goddess is not black, it's white. It was a goddess of black people, but it was a white woman. He did not understand this meaning of a goddess of Afro-Brazilian people. Again, Alessoto, with his cardboard in New York, made a performance, always walking with this cardboard. It's a kind of irony with the metropolisation of the metropolis of New York. This is a stick that another artist pasted in the theories of areas in the old river. We're going to see some others, three more others, rapidly. This is the inflatables of Hugo Richard. He did it in the centre of the river, and everybody loved this. It was a public identification with this, just the contrary of the big heads, the big blue heads that the Spanish guy put in the boat of Hugo Richard. Again, the inflatables of Hugo Richard and the relationship between the femoral of the inflatable and the permanence of a museum. That's curious because the inflatable is bigger than the museum, bigger than the permanence. Again, Ali, with the cardboard, again doing irony with the metropolisation of the metropolis. I would love to show you this engraves of João Sanchez that he produces and pastes in a lot of streets in the city. This is very well known in Rio, and also this sticker of Pedro Sanchez. The most important for me is the street art in the favelas, because I'm quite sure that in the future what will be the heritage of Rio de Janeiro will be the favelas and not the huge tourist events of World Cup and Olympus. This is a street art inside of a favela, and that's whom, very beautiful from my point of view, I choose this to finish my presentation because I do believe that the most important is just to connect with the native guys and to extract from them those aspects that could be in the future universal. Thank you. Perfect timing, and thank you very much Professor Sanchez. I will go on to refunk if you want to set up the presentation and then all questions will come at the end. He's been here in Germany for a year, I believe or so, with the silos which is out here. He lives there, he created the space. He's originally an architect and artist, and he built the silos in the Netherlands and came here, is based here and works a lot on what he presented the other day, his work. On the reviews and refunctionalisation of certain objects that are left abandoned, what do we do with them? If you want to start your presentation. Thank you. I will take you very quickly and roughly through a huge amount of images of our world without a manual, because we look at everything in a different way as architects who work mainly with leftover materials. This means we are something in between art, architecture and design, and I will show you what heritage is a connection for us. So I will always come back in the lecture at some point and I will just flood you with hundreds of images so that you can't remember anything. So the word where we come from, it's refund, it comes from the re, which means again in Latin, the funk is the function because we're architects, we're not artists in the sense everything is based on functions and the word fun means that we play with problems where people have in their public space, wherever it is. This means the heritage of a chair is that we ask, we go into a deep conversation with the chair, the chair says, I don't ever want anyone to sit on me again and fart and do whatever things. And we say, okay, so you become a table and the chair says, oh, that would make me happy. So that's our piece of conversation in the same that a friend of ours, he has a shop, a gallery in the Hague, and he was not allowed to put a bench in front because the sidewalks in Holland are very narrow. And the city has money if you want to put a bench in front of your shop. So, but we asked the city the question, what about if we put a lot of bikes in front of the shop because bikes are not everywhere, right? And the city said, yes, so we made a mixture of a bike and a chair and the problem was solved. And this is in Africa, we experimented and see what comes out if you cross the garbage bin and a bike. The saying that we solve issues because this is probably one of the most sold chairs worldwide, one of those models. You find that everywhere, mostly in the garbage, people just use them and then they don't even need to be broken, they get thrown away in huge amounts. So we had to solve an issue for a manifesto at the art exhibition in Belgium. They had considerably almost zero budget and they wanted 500 chairs. So we bought a stock of those chairs and changed them in height and made holes into them so they became interactive family and everyone could carry that chair on the art exhibition, low ones, high ones and become groups. So chairs became groups but the people as well. And this is actually the story of what I had to think about one of our projects in Lithuania where the term heritage came quite close to us, even closer than we ever wanted and thought. Because for me it's a human thing. It's not what you leave physical, at least from this momentary view now, but what you leave for each other. So what do you leave behind but what do you take away? So it's about lives and memories and about humans as well because if we kill each other there's going to be less of us left and less memories and the heritage is definitely influenced. And as people talk a lot about friendly users, which is our term for user friendly, it's a wrong perception because the user, the product might be user friendly but what if the user is not friendly with the product? It can end up like this. That people use, definitely user friendly car and drink and drive. So we did a project in Lithuania which mostly used to end like this and it still does. We were commissioned by the government of Lithuania to direct a sculpture made from cars in which people died because of drunk driving to put a monument and we decided to use really cars in which people had deathly or deadly accidents. We created a little chapel as a monument for one month. We had opened by the highest priest of Lithuania and he even agreed with us to do this which was very surprising. So therefore a month and caused huge discussions between bicycle activists, car drivers and the most controversial point that the main or the biggest vodka producer in Lithuania sponsored the project. Not with alcohol but with the sense that drink our product but ask someone else to drive then. For us it's important to do things together with each other. This means you sit on a garbage dump. This is to me and me. I'm still having much more here than now. Different ways of communication. There's always a way which you can find out, experiments, play with children just with hands. The connection in the end makes up the memories which goes in the long run to the heritage. This is on gypsy camps how we developed toys for gypsy children. First they throw, they put knives on your belly, they throw stones but after a while you get really close and everyone gets happy because you do something together and not just for someone. And surprise is an element which is always the most beautiful thing every day for example in Siberia. An American might think this is a policeman in this. Dead one probably. But if you can read Cyrilic this is pronounced mousse. It means garbage. So this was definitely a story which came to me. I did not find it. And these two ladies in Latvia surprised me for probably still till now that they didn't agree in the morning. They just probably are neighbours and walk next to each other but this is just incredibly beautiful that it exists. And then there's garbage which might look like this. For us it's a beautiful playground for other people that's a problem. It can look like this. And then there's architecture which I think the perception is definitely wrong in many cases. So for me perfect architecture is the placenta out of which Luca who is sitting right here was born. It's her house in that sense. It has the perfect temperature. It has the perfect climate. It has food. It grows. It changes with you. It does everything what you need. So that's a good architecture. The sense that the Lithuanian man who was working in a brick factory in his neighbour worked in a wood factory. They both could not buy old but only steal what's left over and the result is two little barns for the tools in their gardens because it's made without architects and that's the beauty of creation. A little reference to the favela of course that things grow and not being planned which I find the real beauty. The same is in Siberia I found out on the left corner you see down the window has been planned. The window upright has not been planned. It just was necessary. If we look further upright they needed ventilation as well and I really love this kind of do-it-yourself architecture. The same as in Northern Africa and Tunisia they found out that four metres under the ground you have all year long 16 degrees which is a perfect sleeping climate. So they just made holes in the ground. I mean it's probably not good for people who are addicted to alcohol and come home in the dark. But I really liked it and Star Wars got very inspired. They did a lot of shoots in these zones. For us it's interesting what's left over. What do we leave behind? When you see far on the right side the drilling rigs from oil they get old. But this little escape pod is being not used longer than ten years and then they need new ones. So we decided to buy some of them and call them an extreme hotel. It's a capsulehotel.com. Lonely Planet puts it as one of the craziest hotels in all over the world and it's just a fishing it in there. You have zero comfort but the experience is definitely very very interesting. And it's about listening. Opposite what I'm doing now I'm talking. When we start a conversation with the woods for example they need my partners holding a plank which can't be used because it's not straight. So we start a conversation with a plank and you get into different situations than you think. This is for example another conversation with a metal pole. This is in Breslawia in Poland. And the pole used to carry a big commercial ad but it was there waiting for something new. We had a group of girls who never worked with tools. My partner Damian shows them about hammer. We had 30 pallets and one week and we should create an art piece which should last for 30 days for one month. So we just made a platform. We worked and worked and it became suddenly a structure which came very close to the Orthodox church just around the corner which we didn't even think about. And all the people really enjoyed it and it became a public space. The children played it. The gangsters were smoking their marijuana inside. Everyone enjoyed the shape so in the end we couldn't take it away. When we were supposed to take it down the newspaper started to get active people came and then we got all permissions what you ever want from the city without even doing anything. No drawings just to keep it there. But the day when we came after three months was very fragile. Two drunk men had a lot of fun and destroyed it just the day we came. So the three days we had to reinforce this was day and work, day and night always working then the snow came. So it didn't make it easier to work on an inclined ground. Our welder as a tall polishman fell ten times with his welding torch in his hands. We didn't give up. It was light work. In the end the snow came all the way and it was winter proof. People could use it. The bridge actually you don't see anymore. It got stolen after a week. Somebody needed some firewood but I understand it's cold in winter. So this is the reason why somebody comes and steals wood from this object. So we came back this year and it looked like this. It was still alive. This is Karol, my Polish friend. We decided to give it a third year and now I have a deal with the government of the city of Rotswaf that I have to come every year between December and January and fix the onion that is in a publicly acceptable state. And we decided it's not just fixing so we used paint and we thought red is the best base color for gold. So we really decided to make it a golden onion. I'm very curious what will happen next year. This is how things last which are not meant to last which is actually really beautiful. When you do a project which is made for 25 years probably after two years somebody comes with a lot of money or some good reason and breaks it down. When you make something for a week it might last for all your life. People think we are recycling architects and we very much don't like this word anymore. We call it the green sauce. You just put a green label, a green sauce over products and you can sell it for twice the price. Everybody thinks it's good but recycling except for glass maybe means you transport things from A to B to C to D. Everything you don't want you ship to Africa to China which you keep very quiet. You destroy everything, the structure, you even shorten the fibers. And then you put a lot of energy and make a new product and say it's good. I don't mean this is for everything but there is a big question mark about the word recycling. So that's why we call each other Refunc which is an extension of the life cycle of what is left over and not just a violent semi-destruction to create something else. For example the blades from wind mill offshore parts are used about 15 years and then they are not safe anymore. The value of each blade is about 200 euros after 15 years. So we bought four and made a flying container for a music festival. Of course the transport is a bit more expensive than the price of the wind itself. And then we reused it again for a little festival but you have wonderful objects for playing, for climbing. And there's a lot of them on the planet and no one really thinks what can you do with wind mill blades. And I guess it's time for it. Now we're always proclaiming don't design so you come somewhere and you see people just make solutions for problematics. We worked in Africa and the man would take care about the little church and the township. His sofa was broken and you see we used the car tyre and fixed it so we had a friend. The neighbors who gave us electricity had electricity problem. I fixed that and we had power and more friends. We created a little add-on room for the children and the crash there was not enough space. The great thing is the gangsters sat on it at night and the chickens slept at it in the morning. So suddenly you have three functions that you think only about one which is... And then we had a lot of friendship and songs and we made chairs and returned for the show. And what we did in Africa and Southern Africa that we asked children after school and they come to us, each of them bring one tyre and they cleaned all the surrounding of the roads where you see tyres in the environment everywhere. So it was really really good but in the end we didn't realise how many tyres are everywhere just in the landscape. So after a few days we just said no tyres today. It just went totally out of hand. It became business and the kitchen extension for the ladies. We went further to this material. You find outside in this park where we are now a lot of car tyre chairs. So they come out of our hand and everyone carries them wherever they want. We look different and that's what we like. So for most people it's just the car battery but we read who are you says the car battery to us. So there's a conversation with any object possible if you understand the other kind of language. The same as the man in Kyrgystan who probably wanted to transport an elephant. We really made it up to think for a long time. And this is in Kyrgystan in Bishkek. It's a connection wood wood how to make a bench with two trees without using any metal. It's just you let it grow into each other. It's very very impressive. I mean I don't know but many years you will need some chair to go up or it should go somewhere. But it might rise and change. It's definitely an interesting way. We had a pitch in Holland to make an art piece on the river. And we didn't agree with the papers they asked us to send in because we refused to make a design. Because they asked us that we need to guarantee 25 years of caretaking within our budget. So we just refused that and just wrote the plan that we don't design anything. But we just calculated that the neighbor who costs 25 euros an hour who comes for half a day once a month to take care and paint our artwork. And with that calculation of the 25 years two thirds of the budget was just gone for caretaking. So we decided to use something which has vanitas which is allowed to pass away and just go with time and up to 25 years it will be gone. Or at least something left but if people make graffiti or anything it's allowed everything is already in the plan. So we use breakwater blocks but not in the water. So the people in the park really like those elements because now you are able to touch them to block the roads for cars. Only the passengers can go through the cars agreed as well. So I thought this is a Dutch painting by Vermeer. And then people always talk about workshops and that's our general... Now we actually disagree that a workshop should be with dirty hands and material and you sit and you have tools and you make noise and you play in open air or just go the way you feel and touch some and communicate. But when you meet and talk and have a discussion for us it's more of a talk shop. So that's just our own terminology. Workshops they mostly look like this when we are invited somewhere. This is in Venice which is the most illogical place to work with car tyres but they're really insistent. So we had to fight at night to not get our tyres stolen which are chemical garbage for the rest of the world. But in Venice the ships they use them as fenders. Very interesting moment. Now we did a lot of experimental shelters with groups of youth and car tyres in the south of England. Swings is one of my biggest fascinations how to make different kind of swings that everybody can make at home. So we entered Johannesburg. We lived in the inner city for three months. I've never had one single problem because I don't like prejudice about don't go there. And you ask the person have you been there? No it's too dangerous. Okay so I go and you make friends. And we made a lot of friends by inviting the children to use our swings. So we had a lot of parents and they all showed us their neighbourhood and their streets. In Maffi King in the north of South Africa there was when it was last football world championship it was eight years ago. We had a stadium which was not used for the football cup. So we had to program it in the city. This game is so big so we used the structure of the stadium and made swings. Really big swings for a lot of people. And this is the swing for 30 people it was mostly used by 50. And you end up in a beautiful playground. Of course you can only do this in Africa. Of course people stood there and waited for the swing but it's probably three or four tonnes which might hit you. So we had to invent bumpers to minimise the impact and it's still being used. This is an experiment how to look at your city in a different way from a different angle in Budapest. We had I think 25 garbage bins, cleaned them, made one hole in the bottom, one above. And we invited people just to join us on the streets. And they even had children around them because they were so curious what's there to discover. You see your own city just by the pavement and we took them on tours. We used the bin, we put a lot of them and just waited until people came and got curious. We marked a waterline and we had them for 20 minutes walking over streets with cars. Everything was totally fine. We actually see the reaction of visitors. We see the wet and the waterline. We actually had a problem with two polished grounds in front of the National Library. So some of the bins entered the library and people enjoyed it so they don't take the head out because you're really in this other world. And at night of course we put lights so they can still find their way home. And then there's for me the heritage of furniture because you sit on chairs which are beautifully being used second time. They come from an old school here in Berlin. I know that story. I don't know more about these chairs. But often people have one chair which they really don't appreciate any longer. And there's this word ugly which just suddenly changes that you don't like your t-shirt anymore. You take it out and say I want something else after probably a month or a year or 10 years. But it's still a fascination why this happens. So the person next door probably finds this chair not very beautiful anymore and puts it outside. So what's for us to do is obvious. We just take those two chairs and we create two new chairs which of course look like this. And the other one looks like that. Fascinating is that both of the people suddenly want the chairs back. And this is an example about what happens when everyone throws away their refrigerator. It looks like this in front of a refrigerator recycling plant in Lithuania. And they ask us to have an idea because we have complaints. It looks really really not appealing. So we said why don't you take away all the mechanics, the cooling liquids, the doors. And you give us those fridges as Lego and we start playing. We were I think eight of us and we had ten days. So we just started to stack them. We found out that we are quicker than them to produce the fridges for us. We went on, we made windows to the landscape. This is the backbone how it's constructed. And in the end it became an architectural sculpture of 800 fridges, 100 meter long, 5 meter high. But there was still not enough. Because then we decided that they need a new logo. So we put light in it and we called it the frixel which is a mix of a fridge and a pixel. And then the light thing is always fascinating. It's really simple. This is in Tavni in Italy. It's on a bridge with only bike paths of a very car based city. And we had two old bikes, garbage bins, water tanks, car battery and a few LED lights. And we made a mobile bar which you can bring bicycle to the bridge and open up. And we had a lot of happy people because we had fridges of course. It's another example how you can create with just garbage with a bit of light and a little bit of creative idea about space. This is the library for the manifesto exposition last year. Or you put light inside of a normal plastic pallet, two TLC lamps and put wrapping plastic around it and you get to light effects that people think it's electronics, it's interactive. It's LEDs in there and you always say yes of course. So they believe in this wonderful high tech but it's cost less than 50 euros and we make it in one hour each. And we use them year and year and it's just beautiful to play with a lot of light effects in a minimalistic way. But never admit, don't tell your secrets because it makes people unhappy. We made restaurants from that or expositions. And the other thing is pallets. On the whole planet you find more than 250 different kinds of pallets. And a lot of them are reused but definitely not enough. So whenever you go and there's no material you say get us a bunch of pallets. This is the workshop in Poland. We made children pallets. It was the first thing because there were a lot of children bored on the design fair. People go and read and stand in front of these furniture and never touch, stay away and people had to hold their children back. It was a beautiful playground. So we said let's do something for the children. They liked our pallets because they can carry them. Then we thought what about going mobile. So we went to the hardware store bought a lot of wheels because a lot of confrontation with the securities, with the fire department. And every day we loved to play this game because they really had a problem with us. There was everywhere children running around on mobile pallets. All this expensive furniture in the middle that was a beautiful show. Nothing happened. And we made mobile seats this is made from one pallet for the parents and the visitors as well. Because there was nowhere to sit on a furniture exhibition where you could sit on the bench. Which actually found a bit weird. This is another example of an adventure playground in Warsaw. Which actually lasted for a year. And we extended just to activate public spaces with pallets. People just come by themselves and program it. It's another game of pallets in St Petersburg. Because it's not allowed to touch the art piece and securities are very strict in Russia. So we made the art piece that you almost have to walk on it because it's kind of like a staircase. Which definitely worked. And this is in Siberia where public space is really hard. You see actually that the flowers are supposed to be the bench are where you sit. The public space you walk where it's pavement so there was no dynamics. We just used a bit of cartire chairs. You can move them around. We made a podium from pallets invited a band to play. Fills water bottles with concrete. Made a cartire of balls so you can play public bowling. Which work children played their games. So it's just about changing the perception about spaces, borders, elements. The auditorium was very very minimal but people really started to give performances in the middle. The girls with their high heels wanted us to create a Carrera circle. Like an eight they can walk around which made definitely no sense but it was. A good show because it's on the grass. So we activated the grass by pallets and corners to sit and hang around. Just the quality to not pass in public space but to be and stay. And what's definitely a weird point of heritage are toilets. Because there's something that you always leave behind. By the matter of the toilet. What happens with the toilets? I mean your bacteriums are probably washed away but you still had... Can you imagine how many typos in your life you go to the toilet? I never thought about it until now. It's a point in Lithuania where we've been asked in a very posh village on the coast where a lot of people come for bathing. We were asked by a curator to work with toilets in public space and asked that this is almost impossible, I love it. So we agreed to do it. Then we started plastic surgery on toilets. What can you get out of a toilet when you start to cut it with developed cutting techniques? And the dogs came out. It was one result which was suddenly loved in public space. Of course the most dangerous moment was this one when the barbage came and they crossed our workshop and if I had gone to toilet for one minute our project could have been over. And in the end we found out that the benches in public space had no armrests and they were white. So there was definitely a challenge to just clean them really well and see what happens and people really took it. And the Lithuanian president came to visit us. She shook my hand but didn't want to be photographed on one of those seats which I definitely understand. That's relatively correct. But we left those kind of objects in public space and there were people hanging and sleeping so... It is possible. The police even took it as something which has to be there. And the last story I would like to tell you is the story about my own house. Yeah that involves you as well Luca. Because when you're a smaller being or a creature as a grown up you see things different. I developed from old grain silo a house for myself which I can carry with me like a snail so it has to be mobile. So it can't be bigger than a truck size. And still I found a farmer which could not live on the products he produced like his milk and meat. So he started to collect and trade with grain silo's and all of those normally stored so he had this space full of them which looks like on Mars and I got inspired and made a few ideas like what could you do with a grain silo. I bought the biggest and oldest one he had. He ever went to his space and you see ah it's a space. But I didn't like the horizontal orientation. You get too much to a caravan or a camper. The space is definitely not there after I lived two years in a caravan. I found out that you always have cold feet and two warm hands that the acoustic installation is definitely zero. And the space you can't even stretch your arms and when you're Dutch friends which I mostly talk people come to visit you and talk to you like this. So I knew what I had to do. I love the evolution of the caravan how practical you can spend all your life without moving your food position but still there's no space existing. So this was supposed to be the new space. The farmer asked me 300 euros for the silo including the steel frame and brought it even because he liked the project. A friend of ours who has a truck with a crane came to help and put it up and you see it's rather small. Each of the people around had completely finished ideas of what you can do, how you can make a house from this. So I didn't need to draw any plans because everyone had changed. People in the harbour, in Schrevening, where I lived in Holland the technical equipment people from the ships came and said you can do like this or you can put the window here. We helped you to insulate so the story was ongoing. So I just put the window and saved the house. I made a little sketch to see how can you actually put yourself into space. And my youth dream was always to have a bathtub in the ground. It's a bit like Japanese style. Not even for water just to put your feet into it. And then Luca came, she was then four. Now she's almost eight. Five or six. Correct? And you see we just started to put the floor on her comments. We're inspiring because space is the definition about how tall you are, how big you are, how you perceive it, your experience with space. The students from the local academy came. My assistant made a balcony. And I was surprised that eight people in only a space of 4.2 square metres had a comfortable time in the talk, which I didn't try before. So we kept on cutting it open, you see a frame which tells us this is the maximum what a truck can take without special permissions. My birthday came. I invited my friends. There were 26 people inside on two levels at that time. Now we have three. I learned chemistry to deal with this polyester material, what the silo was made from. The storms and the rain came, so we had to learn hard lessons. Don't ever try this outside again. And then the snow came, which didn't hit Holland for 50 years as much as that year. I think it was 2012. And the winter actually gave us a gift of 50 centimetres of snow for one month because rain dries, but snow stays, so we're totally blocked and had a wonderful time to think and work on the interior. And here you see all the mistakes which have been repaired and cut again when the window went to the wrong place, which is of course part of the dynamic process. This is the result that you can see outside here at ZPU and the interior. So you see still the grain silo. There's no space for stairs, so we have a climbing wall. And there you see a little bucket which brings all the goods like a cup of tea upstairs or downstairs because while you climb you have no hands free, which makes you realise that your mouth is what you can carry. Or you have a lift. We have a fireplace. It's basically everything what you need on what, 14 square metres on three levels. Luca found out that in the corner where the door opens on the upper floor is enough space for her. I did not consider this as a space. She said if you make a little folding table for me, I hope you don't need to correct me now. That she wants to have the view to see the shifts that she can make the drawings. So the children room designed itself in that sense. This is the sleeping department upstairs. And this was the interaction and the result of the city behind. This could be Greece. And the view which I do miss. The staircase and the lift. And you see on the right side I spent two years in the caravan to learn how to make a different kind of mobile house with quality of space. And then a big moment came, the truth. Because people put a lot of furniture with wheels and they say they're mobile but I don't believe. If you don't move something, it's not mobile, it's just an illusion. So the crane came and it was definitely a scary moment. Everything went well. Everybody liked it, a spaceship in the air. And I said just leave it horizontal, it looks rather good like this. We were only stopped once by the police because they thought it might be really really heavy and from steel. I was the only concern, we were only three centimeters next to the car which was not allowed. But my truck driver told me put the little exhaust on the right side because nobody ever passes us on the right. Because the truck was slow, I really liked the budget. And this is here at KU. I put my tools, the water tanks for the velas, everything else I needed into a shipping container in the Sino. So I basically packed my whole life. My administration, my company, my materials, my tools, my clothes, my private behaviours, my possessions, everything I really think I would need. I had to take it one move with me after 15 years in Holland which is quite history. And then you put it back up and the beautiful thing is the mobile house which is almost round. You twist it with one hand when it's hanging on the truck and you think where's the sun? Where's the view? And you keep on twisting and say okay now you look around and yeah it's good, oh wait a second. And you twist it another centimeter and then you put it down. We opened the windows, we put the water tanks, I brought some chairs from Holland as you saw before. We called out an opening party. Look, I was singing songs for the visitors. And we had a lot of guests and we leave our door open on a weekday, mostly even on weekends. We have people just coming in, I admit it doesn't look like a house, maybe more like a play installation. Yesterday there were so many children around that we even had to leave because we couldn't handle the questions, the amount and the shaking on the house which is just curiosity but it was too much for us. And you get visitors from different zones. They need the space for landing so we had the police, the fire department and the rescues and school children from a class visiting us. Climbing, the winter came and definitely worked out, we never had it cold, we found a lot of firewood. People took the space as you could say it's the most gay now but it's not. And then we developed a garden in front so we're not really as mobile as we think anymore. Two weeks ago there was an open house here at ZKU and we thought it would be great to have a pizza oven so we used stones from the streets and we started to take pizza. And then we had the idea that we could use a water tank, cut it open, put a pipe and a spiral to it, an old spring from a machine and just put fire in it. And after three hours it was a steam bath. This means people just took their clothes off. First they were in underwear, later they were all naked and having a steam bath in the middle of public space so it was definitely a rewarding element. And it looked like a little festival, there was an installation by the Osk Australian group so the whole ZKU was one night festival zone. And the last thing I want to tell you about what kind of weird heritage we can create by not speaking the language and not understanding each other is the story from Mexico. There was in the registry of official names two new names appeared, nobody knew where they came from, people speak mostly Spanish and no English. And a lot of boys are called in Mexico now Uznavi and Uzarmi. So now you see where it came from because later they discovered it's the t-shirt you'll read in Spanish. It's Uznavi and I find the name quite nice. So thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much. Both fascinating thoughts, statistic interventions in world heritage sites and the artist's use, re-use, refunk of what we forget and could have another life and create new heritage, creative expressions, what is the relationship to heritage, what do we take as heritage, in what way can we link them together? What is the importance of looking and finding what these artists are doing within heritage spaces for heritage practice, values, cultural identity? Both great. I don't know whether you have anyone has any questions if you want to start questioning to the mutually or if we open it already to the public. Let's go. I'd love to invite you to go for the live interview. Oh, I'm coming. Yeah. Where are we going tomorrow? Tomorrow. It would be nice to see how people there used to re-funk a lot of things just as to why. That was really, really important and really curious and I do believe that this kind of artist, I have said before that the artists are not tourists. Artists are persons for whatever that are capable to oscillate between the native and foreign and that are capable that oscillates between different oppositions. You have talked about a lot of issues, for instance the difference between a chair and a table and then you create a table or something like this. So you create something that links one different thing with another one. And this is amazing. I was enchanted to talk about it because of this because in fact if we think about what we're going to be the next heritage in say 100 years won't be the big beauties, won't be the big stage, won't be the big park, there will be probably some technological experience, some re-functioning. So that's the question that we should think about when we think about heritage and innovate heritage. You were very, almost wonderful when you thought about this innovative heritage because basically heritage is no thing. And now we are talking about new things, we are about to innovate in old things and to see things that could be in the future and heritage. We never know, it could be a tomato can, like it was in the case of N. Morro, that transformed a common thing in a kind of celebrity or vice versa. We got married in Morro, there was a celebrity and transformed it into a common thing and we produced it a lot of time. That's nice. I was thinking when I was working on my paper, I was thinking well because we changed it a little bit because at the beginning it would be a conversation with one chain. It would be much more about tourism and things like this. And then I had the red dawn something on my resource and I also began to think about the thoughts of one chain. And then I was informed that it was necessary to change because one chain had a problem with views and things like this. And I sent you and you may say wow that's wonderful because this kind of issues of reform is going to be very close with the question that I would love to put in the paper. So, great. No, it's just beautiful to see the connection because I see the link we call it always the art tourism and the tourism and terrorism is for us quite close because you invade and I really like your point of view. I mean it's the same how the safari things happen but for us even architecture is a terrorist as itself because we come from the background of architecture. Many architects create situations or buildings they don't realise, a painting on the wall you can take down or even destroy it or just put it in the basement. But a house, you're facing it, 50 years. And I think when they design houses they would not live themselves in, you should hang the architect on the facades. Because if you force architects to live in the dwellings they create there would be such a different kind of architectural sculptures coming. And I miss what you are just wealthy and you have your own secure place and you do your work and what we discovered in different places where we work that the more it's not about poverty but when you have nothing from whatever background you come you get extremely good. And improvisation has an enormous raise that's why of course the slums in India and South Africa in Brazil the creativity is incredibly high because it has to be. There's no other way to survive and that's what I love but it's about creativity in everyday things. There's a beautiful book about Russian inventions in the last 50 years. It's all about things this big. And there's people who found out that there's no light switch. They just needed no. They had a light switch but no socket for power so they just opened the light switch on the ceiling. There was a connector for the lamp and they created adapters that you put a bulb in but it has no bulb but it has power plug in it. And it's just genius little things out to make a knife into a fork and that's actually the real quality. And they're not even considered inventions because they're so logical and so practical. Or we shouldn't forget that that makes life beautiful, the things you touch every day. I cannot lose the opportunity to say that I'm an architect. I was, at the beginning I was a social scientist because I had double formation as a social scientist and then later I was an architect. And I realized that this opposition could be, that I could oscillate between these two poles of this opposition too. And then it came to me two things. The analytical aspect of the social scientist is the synthetic aspect of the architect. And for instance you have talked about this kind of bricolage, bricolage. As you know it's a French word that was recovered by Levi Strauss, a very famous anthropologist that recovered the bricolage as a way of talk. So do bricolage is to think and that's amazing how people had to solve questions. Once I was in a big university in the United States where I had studied. And the guy was talking about how could a poor guy came from a favela in Brazil or study in this university. It would be difficult for him to solve all the problems and I said well, I imagine how difficult it would be for you to go to a favela. And survive there. You're probably going to be killed because it would be necessary. And that's curious because you have said that you went to some poor areas in poor district in Mexico. I think that has said one place that you understood. And that's very curious because the reason why people are capable to go. I lived there so for me it was a little bit easy. I went to do some work with people in favelas in Rio and that's exactly what occurs. That you became a friend of people and you became to understand all the things in this kind of environment. And you can live here without any problem. But if you came there with kind of exotic gaze. So it's going to be difficult. But that's interesting. The most interesting for me is to think what is going to be heritage in 50-100 years. I agree with you about the connection with the people. I mean if you go somewhere and you put some of your even creative school for them. When you come 20 years later the school might be gone or something changed. But they might remember you. So it's more or less for us the connection that you build up with local people. That makes unsafe places very safe. When I go to a place I feel not safe. I just look at the person who stands at the corner and sells food. I just take the arm of that person and say you're my friend now. And then call me down and then I look around. And say who's your friend and someone else and buys a sandwich. Who's really nice and can I walk with you? And then you go and you make connections. And I noticed that it's a human future. Because I noticed that people pay a lot of money into systems to take care when they're old. And I had a discussion with a very rich friend of mine who doesn't do it. Who has his own company, he's a garbage advisor. And it's about human research which is the investment in the future. Because when you're old you can have good friends to take care of you. So there's very many different ways to see what will the future be. And what will be left and what we do invest with our time and our power. So what do you like to hear from you? Just realized after your presentation that the practice of reuse and refunctioning of objects might be also actually considered as a heritage at a point. For example, I mean more from a personal point of view, I now just realized that in my family for example we had this habit of not throwing away stuff. Because you never know when you might need it for something. And it actually stays with you then, this practice. And now for me has also maybe a more creative function because I like also to play with it. But for my family, I mean for my mother or for my grandmother it was really a necessity to reuse objects. And it's interesting how comes or it's passed from a generation to the other like the heritage we want to preserve. So I found it interesting this parallel. I think it's a philosophy, not everyone can understand it here. Because my father likes the placement clean and not anything. Not because he might pie one day, but it's just a discomfort to have stuff. If you look at it as stuff and things, it's definitely not comforting you. But for when I come to the basement of my uncle and he collected all these metal pipes and these things, it's paradise for me. I can start to create immediately. And even on the streets of clean, tidy Japan you find people grow plants and flowers in almost any kind of object which has the capability of a pot. If it's from yogurt, car parts, the tidiest families do this. It's a big Japanese tradition. In all the houses you see these buckets or coffee cups or everything full of little clums. And I think then you speak a language. It's a philosophy and an expression and it can be the future. It's just the question who is able and who wants to be able to speak that language. It's just that I want to share my experience of recycling materials and recycling something which is connected with the educated and emotional. I have been to the head of the house, my dad called himself, 100 years old. It's about almost 100 years old. So everybody was talking about let's demolish it and make a new beautiful house in the countryside. It was in the countryside. So somehow it was very much emotional for my family, for my grandparents and fathers and the after that. So I just told one tips then. Let's make the bricks used. Let's try to use the bricks, whatever the situation is. Let's try to use the bricks from at least 70% or 60%. Make it a new building, a small building. But with those elements and the wood, we had the wooden perlutes and the ancient roof system. It has the perlutes and wooden birds. So we also reused those woods and made the windows and the doors like that. So it's an emotion, it's a connection. That house is not belong to them but a new small house would be have. But that house has a connection with each bricks, the family, the person, the emotion and everything. It's very much related with it. So when you're recycling something, it's really attached or when you were trying to make new things with those things. It is really kind of a icon or landmark. Definitely. It's a philosophy. Also in my part of it is an emotional part of life. I love the idea of re-name recycling to re-funk. One thing is to create a new cycle. The other thing is to create a new function. For instance, you remember the ball that the guys were using in their hands? So what is this? This is some kind of plastic ball, same circular plastic ball. They get two, put one over another, seal it, paint it and put it in their hands. That became an amazing contribution to the soccer games in the World Cup. That's really amazing how people are creative in the sense that they can re-function a lot of different things. In Rio, for instance, there is an area that they call the Bahadcom. This is a big area, like this space in Rio, for instance, where people from the Sambos school, you know what Sambos school is, the group that paraded in the carnival, where the Sambos school do a lot of creations, a lot of creations. They do amazing things with cups, cardboard, with those kinds of plastics that are there. They are capable to do some costumes that you cannot believe when you see them. That's a great experience. I will talk with Catherine in the area. Next time, you're going to do the innovative heritage in Rio. So you're going to invite everybody there. I'm going to look for some funding. I'm going to do this conference there inside a Bahadcom of Sambos school. It's going to be great. But we don't wear it in the favela or not? No, no, the Bahadcom could be an a favela. The Bahadcom, that means this space, is not an a favela. But people that work there, people in the community of the favela, from different schools of Sambos, that goes there to do the work, to do the costumes. So they take something like six months, because we are talking about 200,000 people parading in Rio. So we had to do 200 costumes for different people with different sizes and with different imaginations, because Sambos school is like an opera. It has dance, it has music, and also there is a history on this. And each scene of a school parade means something. For instance, in the case of the ball, again. The idea was to communicate to the people that the Brazilian guys is always think about football. They are very poor, they have a lot of difficulties, they have a lot of problems, they leave the motion linked with carnival, with football, a lot of different things. A lot of intellectuals say, make a lot of criticism, saying that they should be more conscious about this difficult thing like this. I don't know if this is the right to view the problem. Of course there is poverty, of course there is violence. Of course it is necessary to change the society, to reduce inequalities. Of course, this is obvious. But the question is, you don't need to do this unhappily. You can do this with some happiness. That's the idea. I love the city. I have a question, maybe more like a comment. I come from Montenegro, it's a small country in the Mediterranean. I'm a conservation architect. I work in the World Heritage Site of Cotor in Montenegro. With what you just said, a way of changing things, I'm actually thinking how difficult my job has become since the governmental policy in terms of conservation, not just the government of Montenegro. I would say the United Nations and UNESCO, as one of its institutions and organisations, has actually made our life and work so difficult. Because these policies are so strict on some conservation principles, policies and practices. But in real life, we actually came to a situation where we are fighting our own people. Because we are bidding all the time that they shouldn't build or they shouldn't change or they shouldn't do this and that, and all of that based on the higher policies, or in this case of UNESCO. I'm just wondering, because I just had a discussion with some colleagues a few days before.