 All right, live good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Wherever you're hailing from welcome to another edition of the level up hour Episode of level up hour. I should say I am Chris short executive producer of open shift TV I'm joined by the illustrious Langdon white Langdon. How you doing today? Not too shabby not too shabby We have a interesting and packed show today We do have There were some announcements. I wanted to get out of the way too at the beginning of the show today Okay So first off other slides for the announcements. I always have to oh Yeah, I probably should do more slides for those kinds of things, but you know, whatever But the big thing I wanted to or I could I could share that would be But what I wanted to Mention was uh, we are coming up on See Comf cz. Oh, yeah virtual. Yes is virtual and See where did my super window go? Here it is um So it is virtual this year. It is the 18th through 20th, which is uh the end of next week um I am actually going to be giving a talk about uh service mesh and event driven architectures and stuff um as well as giving um Uh or kind of highlighting some research in a keynote about application architectures. So, uh, you know, those might be fun. It is free as always And because it's virtual you couldn't go. Uh, it is The the time is kind of set up so that um, at least North at least, you know, kind of the americas, you know, uh north south and europe kind of north south Should have the timing work pretty well You know, so apac is always tough to to also include but there should be some overlap So there should be stuff that is uh semi worldwide And uh, you know, another stuff that is going to be harder to get to depending on times on your in um The other thing I kind of wanted to mention too was so definitely check that out go register Um, it's uh, it's a really good conference. Uh, it's all open to subscribe and everything. Yeah Yeah, it's all open source software. It's all um, and uh, I'll accept the cookies. Um, and uh, and and not product Right, so it's it's all the actual upstream projects. So it can be uh, very illuminating and I don't know anybody who Uh, who's been who doesn't enjoy it. So, um, I highly recommend it Uh, so that was the first thing. Um, the other thing is we've been lining up some cool guests coming up Uh, it sounds like we're gonna have uh, dan walsh and uh, chris right and uh, brett bowdy all talking about various topics In the near future. So keep an eye on the uh, streaming calendar if you would like to see them Uh, we are slowly updating the kind of the abstracts and the events and that kind of stuff But we have them confirmed as speakers Um, and uh, we have a few others in the in the offering as well that we're hoping to get on the show I really have to commend you on that one. Langdon. Like this was not me show running doing my normal thing This was like Langdon wants Langdon go get and it was very awesome to see it happen Like just kind of sit back and watch kind of be all for once. I was like, whoa, Langdon knows how to do this Yeah, yeah, I was I was pretty excited because you know, you're always nervous when you're when you're talking to cool people like if uh, will they will they have time for me? and So, uh, yeah, so I'm pretty stoked. Uh, I'm really looking forward to the pod man of the three Yeah, that's going to be discussion with bread pouty. Who's one of the lead architects on the project So that should be a lot of fun. Um That might have been it, uh, we could hit the slides. Um, and uh, Let's see, you know, so we can make sure people are in the right place I feel like there's something else I was supposed to mention, but you know, I'll probably remember it later. Um, You know, like in the middle of the night while I'm Yeah Where you're trying to sleep? Yeah, exactly. Uh, so this is the level up hour where we talk about uh containers and why they're useful in your kind of everyday life and random to some extent other topics that are either suggested by by um by audience members or kind of things I overhear in other shows or things like that Um, and uh, and actually, uh, so somebody commented in the chat the chat, uh, Mr. Container Dan actually we're going to specifically Uh, what I asked him to come and talk about is the relationship between se linux and containers Yes, even though he's really the like container guy now. You know, he used to be the se linux guy Um, and I just think the way he explains, uh, stuff, uh, is is very clear At least, you know, I find him very under like very understandable on hard topics And uh, so yeah, so I'm really hoping he can come and talk to us about kind of how security And se linux, which is kind of like a subset of security and containers work Uh, and uh, hopefully explain some of that in ways that people can get, um Uh, a better understanding of how all that stuff goes Cool. Yeah, so I'm pretty excited. Um, as you should be. Yeah. Yeah Yeah Oh, and uh, and jpdade mentions that kubecon eu registration is open just opened. Yeah, I was going to mention that. Um, Oh, earlier special at 10 bucks. Oops I'm sorry. What Special at 10 dollars. Well, no jpdade said it was 10 bucks for, uh, a couple of weeks super early. Yeah Yeah, this is like a super early bird, uh special or whatever you want to call it that's going on right now. So Get in while the getting's good folks. Um, you know kubecon eu we're not using this is what I've been told we're not using the, uh, uh monstrosity that is, um In Toronto, so This is a new way of doing kubecon for them And as jpdade says, uh, he sent me a picture of his new Herman miller office chair that he won At kubecon in a last year Oh, that's so yeah, he got the the one with like the the meshi like super like yeah back. Canada. Oh, yeah, so Yeah, I bought one. Uh, I think mine's actually a human scale. Um, you know, but uh, because you know I'm too old to uh, you know perch on a uh, on a crappy chair, um Oh, yeah, same. Yeah, the other challenge I have is my uh, my desk is actually quite high up It's not like quite high enough to be like a standing desk But it's it's higher than standard. So I also couldn't use like a regular chair But uh, yeah, I it's it's actually worked out pretty well. Um, I I have enjoyed it. Um, yes, and to uh, Detective code and kudo. Yes, not in Toronto. I am not in Toronto Um, I'm curious to know what software I'm using though. Um, yeah, I I haven't Heard to be honest. Yeah, that's kind of This is all the rage now for us like conference, you know people who I know right like a lot of conferences and stuff Um, you know, we always are curious how they're going to run the venue and how they're going to run the boosts and You know all the other stuff because you know, like you see different ones, you know Like what kind of swag are they doing? You know, um, and you know, you kind of want to you know Steal the best ideas you can get right Exactly and now we're all like hyper focused on the virtual conference platforms Like are they running it with a separate chat? Are they running it in the same one? Right, you know all this stuff because it all makes a difference, but we're not doing the uh You know, we're not doing the in person thing lately. So it's it's kind of weird. Um But yeah, so and to uh, the comment, um, you know, maybe it's hoppin Hoppin is the one that red hat's been using a lot lately. I'm I'm a fan. Um, it's it's h o p i n dot t o If anybody wants to check it out, um, it's uh, it's been pretty good for us Still has a lot of those same failings though of the nih thing of uh, you know They wrote their own chat. They wrote their own schedule engine and it's like, you know, we have like 70 000 different chat Yeah applications that are all pretty good. Um, and we have you know, and then like I really enjoy sked.com Um, you know for the schedules it has a mobile app, you know all this other stuff Excuse me. Um, and uh, so Deep linking which was a hard thing in the beginning for in Toronto. So yeah, here. Yeah, let's get on with the show. How about We get a little distracted occasionally. Um, so the level of our Here we are Uh, I'm Langdon with a one on twitter and chris is uh chris short, uh on twitter as well Um, and uh, we are always on our not always but you know mostly on the discord No, I'm always on the discord by the way. Well, I'm always logged into the discord Sometimes I sleep as we discussed. I think last time or two times girl But uh, yeah, we we've actually been getting some good Knowledge sharing there uh the past like week or two in particular. Um, you know some questions Uh, specifically we had some questions about Why am I completely blanking? Oh about licensing or yeah questions for open chip and I'm trying to put Either this show like the next episode or the episode after that of this show together about it Or we're going to do a special edition show. Um, so that we can uh, I actually address those on the show itself Uh, because they're comp like the answers aren't something I really like I could have written like walls of text To try to get you know to try to answer Um, but I thought it would be better if we actually get some of the experts on how this instructions work How the one of them was actually about the level up program itself Right of which this is a you know kind of piece of this show And so get some of the experts who are involved in those programs To come and talk about them so that they could answer the questions, uh directly So I thought that would be fun. Um So yeah, but there were some questions about ACM. Um, and then there was something else lately too, but no Oh, did we answer that question? ACM crap? I think so. I thought okay jumped in at some point Yeah, I know we talked about it and internal channels, but I don't remember if we like actually went back and answered. Um, okay, cool. Awesome. Um, yes the new 16 rel free licenses I don't know. We may not have a rel sub expert. Um, but So well, no, we do we did a show Uh, uh the last week um redhead enterprise linux presents. We talked about Uh the 16 licenses and then um ACM we had a great show yesterday on ACM and Oh, that's where you answered the question. Yeah That came up in discord right like I brought it like you mentioned it in our slack and I was like Oh, he's actually on right now and we can answer it now, right, right? So, yeah, so go check out the episode from yesterday of what was that one called or which show was that? For the ACM thing, uh redhead, uh advanced cluster management presents Oh, it was the direct ACM show. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they have their own show. Uh, yeah, I knew that I didn't know was yesterday Yeah, no, it's every Third or every first Tuesday of the month. Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. Um, yeah, so Generally, yeah, there were fire alarms during that show. That's right. Carlos. Uh, there was uh, Mike elders fire alarms are going off for some reason and it literally like once we hit the ploy on something They started going off and it was hilarious. Um, it was quite funny show yesterday and very lively. That's interesting Yeah, I uh, I I have a machine that I do certain kinds of builds on and when I do those certain kinds of builds Uh, it screams at me because it's not being able to draw enough power Right, which I find not very reassuring. No But you know, whatever. Um, yeah, so okay, so that is a bunch of stuff about discord. Um As usual we, uh, you know, I did the show notes from last time Which was episode 22 and I forgot to update the title of this episode, which was brilliant of me. Um I should really like have somebody cross check these maybe, um It and you know what I noticed that this morning and I probably could have fixed it Then I was just too worried about shipping out my email. Yeah, oh, right, right. Um, so today's show is actually about api gateways sort of um, I think we called it, uh, you know apis and their gateways, um, uh, and uh I will tell you so I struggled a little bit on how to kind of model this show So that it wouldn't just be like a straight up lecture. Um, because Because you are illustrious. Well, right. Exactly. Well, because the topic I was trying to figure out what I really wanted to do was like demos or something, right? But the problem is is that You don't cross into needing things like api gateways until you get a whole mess of stuff. Um And so doing things at a smaller scale So if if we if I had gotten a little further along on the cool store work I think that actually might be a good model for it Um, but I thought we'd kind of talk about it a little bit in the abstract and then and I could show some Some examples rather than demos per se. Cool. Um, and then uh, we could, uh You know, maybe maybe we'll revisit it when we can bring in the cool store and and kind of demonstrate their api gateway Um as part of the the show directly um All right. Now I have to rearrange my windows because they're all lost. Um, sweet. Yes, exactly So, uh, the first thing I wanted to mention and I will throw them in the chat Is we have actually done Two different api gateway product episodes of OpenShift commons briefings. Yes um, and so one of them is based on So there was a independent company called three scale that we acquired Some day before today. Um, yeah, you know, I don't know how long ago And so they did a show Not too long ago and uh, sorry my notes are all in markdown So they will generally speaking land in markdown in the twitch Unless I do something different fair enough Yeah, so and then the other one which was uh one from just like a week or two ago, uh, was with a company called kong Uh, which that was a good episode. Yeah, I went back and watched it because they specifically say api management is dead as the Right of the show. I was very very intriguing. Yeah. Yeah, so I was kind of like, uh, maybe I should know what they have to say Before I go and say api gateways are the bomb. Um So long story short, um You know, it was kind of funny as as is often the case when I am trying to explain, uh stuff in technology Weirdly enough. I find the wikipedia definitions of them Shockingly good and shockingly easy to understand. Um, so I am going to talk about it a little bit from that perspective um And a straight up share that uh that definition. Um, so hopefully I'll can read that But you can go back and look at it later. I will throw the actual link in the chat as well. Um, this one not in markdown Oh, how nice so, uh And As somebody mentioned the editors. Um, yeah, so I am a big fan of joplin note taking editor, which is oh cool Yeah, that's very much a markdown based. Yeah, and I I really like it So, um, I think I've pitched it on the show before I will pitch it again because I think it's great. Um, but What I kind of want to point out here is, um Um The the whole I I don't know when it happened, right? But so if you go back 15 years ago or something maybe 20. Um, and I went and did some research on this to try to find some examples um But basically, uh, IBM has and I think they acquired it, but there's a a product called tivoli, uh, which has been around for a Long long time. Uh hpe has the brilliantly named so a manager um mind reef, uh, which was one that I remember from from back in the day, uh called, um, They called the soap scope server And then the other one I wanted to share too was well, let me get to that in a second But uh mule soft also has some products in this space But so we had these things that as I remember them being called were called, um, SOA service meshes or meshes Um, which uh is kind of funny because we now have a thing that we call service meshes, which are not the same thing Um, because you know, it's technology. So we don't want to make things too easy to understand. Um so In those days we when we were doing the SOA idea. So the SOA service oriented architectures, um, were Uh, basically a top-down approach to Integrate all the services together of your environment so that you could deliver on applications and the First up the top-down approach was problematic as in, um, when you tried to do a directive from like this CTO's office. It didn't take with your developer on the ground. Um, you know, 30 layers deep, right? The other problem was the standards bodies. Um, the standards bodies were Just ridiculously huge and time consuming to get to things like SOAP Uh was a big standard, you know, and and they were they were good Don't get me wrong like the like the quality of the result was good The problem is getting a revision to one was like a matter of years um And during that same time frame is when we saw the same thing that, um, Uh, the guy from red monk who I just blanked on his name. Um But uh who wrote, um, the uh, you know, the developer's king, whatever that book is called. Um, now I'm now I'm all totally blanking Of course, I don't have a note for that. Um But there's a there's a book, uh, that basically talks about the swing of the pendulum From of kind of the power dynamic in software From system administrators, which actually is what led largely to like package managers and And kind of the uniformity of linux, which has been great But it swung over to developers and then was kind of reinforced by things like containers and that kind of stuff. Um So but during that period right so when when that swing was happening in this in the um monolithic Power structure that was like SOA and that kind of stuff you had these service meshes. They were all very complex You had things like, um, You know kind of esb's which was the enterprise service bus you had, um, you you know Largely, this is also where like java application servers Really got out of hand and you've had java beans and all that stuff. Um, oh, there you go. Stephen O'Grady. Yeah, that's who I was thinking That's right. Now if you can remember his book title that would be perfect That's my job to do the linking and yeah, right, right Um so, uh, he's uh, definitely if I highly recommend like following his twitter, um, and uh, go and go and reading his blog post He's uh, he's an interesting guy. Um so All that said, right? So you had all this concept of this highly tuned like world, etc The new king makers. Yes, that's it conquered the world, right? Um, so So You have all of these kind of like overarching review and all this other stuff Okay, then flash forward to kind of more present day and you started having um Like a grassroots service creation, which we now call kind of microservices But was this idea of all these different services kind of becoming available and being able to be used um largely led by, um Or or kind of I don't want to say inspired it was happening all over the place But starting to be realized by a famous memo that bezos wrote at amazon About the what they call the two pizza team Um, which is that you can't have a team that's bigger than you can feed with two pizzas um And the core or and the kind of the other half of it Which was that you can't they were not allowed to write Functionality that could not be called by other parts of the organization, right also by the outside so in every single Service that was offered within the amazon had to also have authentication so that it could be called from somebody outside Right and largely this helped to lead to the the You know kind of the massive number of services on aws, right? I forgot what the count is. I think it's 200 now But yeah, oh, yeah, at least I mean like, you know the the next big service They need to do is figure out how to make their uh management page easier to understand a service gateway right, um So what happened though was exactly that is that okay now we've got this whole mess of services How do we manage them right because excuse me, um So how do we how do we manage them as both kind of internally but then also externally right because we might want to have external people be able to call them um And this is where the concept of api management or api gateways started to land So and its simplest Point right as in the wikipedia page says here is like the gateway is the The part that so that we were talking about authentication before You don't want to have to have every single service right their own authentication. That's just Yeah, like a recipe for disaster. Yeah That's not gonna go well. Um So instead, uh, you do things like a gateway You know platform of some kind and so companies started to make a product or products, right that uh just delivered that gateway aspect Another one that started to show up was the publishing problem Okay, so how do you do the simple publishing problem? Which is like make other parts of your organization or other organizations aware of the fact that you have this api Right, but then almost more importantly is how do you make them aware of revisions to the api? Um, and so, you know new version has come out How do you how do you share that information at a technical level and then kind of the next level down or the next Next thing down on on this list, right? It's kind of developer portal Which is like, okay, so the publishing tools are about how do you make the Like software aware of api change, but then how do you make the humans who are going to You know write the software that consumes that software aware of api change and that's where developer portals start to come in handy Um, I really like that. It's it started to standardize that you can start to say um developers dot company name dot com and you will often get um a uh a solid bleed on Um, sorry, it's got a I was just looking at a message. Um, yes So, uh, when you You know, so you can get a solid lead on on what's going on in those, you know in that particular environment. Um, and so uh We have Then you kind of get further on right so now you want to know about what's actually going on in the environment So you get reporting and analytics. Oh and then finally you want to make money on it Okay, now making money on it could be uh, there's this old thing I don't even know if they still do it even though we're part of ibm But they there used to be this thing called ibm blue dollars Which is dollars that ibm would spend amongst itself So that you can track that this part of the organization was buying from that part of the organization without spending real money Right, but you you know as a you know as the organization that's running the web logic team Um, or sorry, that's not ibm. That's our let's say web sphere. Um, you want to say Okay, I want to go as let's say red hat is buying a bunch of web sphere Even though we have jboss, right? But let's just say we're buying a bunch of web sphere The web sphere team wants to be able to take credit for the sale, right? So you have these these blue dollars they used to call them So that's where you want the monetization is to kind of track what's happening You know within the organization, but it could be external monetization as well, right? So you want to you know buy whatever from whoever And so one one of the kind of weird little things I wanted to kind of show you is that and I was kind of getting at this a little bit is This concept is not Like all that different than the service management concept, right? So again, hopefully you can see that Um My picture big enough, but if you notice here, we have You know api management in the same bucket, right as like so a management produced by the same company Huh, that's weird. What if you know, like Are they different like are they the same and I would argue that largely it's the same concept It's this problem of as soon as you have a set of services Doesn't really matter like once that they're kind of over a certain size They can be micro. They can be macro. They can be coming from third parties. They can be coming from wherever You need to start to understand what's going on um So, yeah, that's kind of the That's kind of Largely the point of the api management api gateways and then we start to get into um Sorry technology defeating me. I'm going to share again and share Trying to grab a playlist for you ac where you can go watch all of our previous episodes Oh, cool. Uh, yeah, sorry. I'm not watching the chat as much. That's fine. I got it. Cool. Um But so if you look at um What was I gonna get to oh, so What I kind of wanted to show was like, um, you know, and what's funny is And why I thought this was like a good slot to put this show in is because we talked about, um Like apache camel Oh, I don't know Oops What did you share gracious? There we go. Do you know what you shared? I'm trying. Uh, okay. You should see apache camel now. Um, yes. Okay, so Uh, so if you kind of look here, right? So we see there's All these apis in camel, right? Um And you know, and we were talking about camel and camel k camel k is in a lot of ways just the kubernetes version of camel But you know, this is a api toolchain that came up in the show last time because we were talking about the cool store But it gets Both cooler and more boring than that. Um, because we can talk about things like Uh, as I'm sure oops wrong button. Um, most people are familiar with Although I think I think I forgot to log in. Um rank Oh, I have to that's like the first setting I turn off and fire fox. I know it's it's because this no I have something else for that. Right, right exactly but so What do we see here? Look at this. So this is kind of apis Right And I have no idea how this works underneath obviously, right? But this is exactly the kind of problem we're talking about. So here's the san francisco transit system And so you can operate on the api that uh, you know a bar Station is delayed. Yeah, or a bar, you know, something happens that delays. I assume a train, right? I mean, I don't really care if the station is slow. Um You know and then cause something to happen, right? Or I can so like There's the delay. I can say okay Send me a text message or some kind of you know, there's all these alert apps out there You know, you could use slack whatever you want, right? Like just fire it On this api happening or this api exposing something Right do this other thing I used to use if the If this then that I have ttt Um, I used to use it like a lot to share out like, you know, my recommended read tweets But I've like surpassed like their capacity, I guess Well, if there's a bunch of competitors to it now, um, and one of them I was I was trying to remember the one you used is Zapier. Yeah. Oh zappier. That's it. Um And uh, you know, I don't do enough anywhere near enough of these kinds of automations But if you also think about uh, you start to see, um You see this all over the place. So tasker is this api manager caller kind of thing for android I kind of thought we would get to their like website, but I guess I don't even know if they have one But they kind of do the same thing right is like, you know on this that's not a great example, but um You know kind of yeah, here we go. So on this kind of event do this other thing over here. So They are all over the place. These apis are all over the place. Um, and even though it's going to give away something later um, you know, we we have Actually search engines for this We have really? Yeah um, so there's this site called programmable web, which has actually been around for a dang long time Okay, I didn't even know this existed And they have I don't see in here 24,000 apis That they know about And I will say your mileage will vary a little bit here like because obviously the curation can be a little tough So, you know, sometimes they're not a whack and you know, whatever. Um And we have RSS feed is like that could be interesting Right, right. So so there's I mean there's a ton of good stuff here. Um, and then we also even have, um You know conferences, uh dedicated to this concept. Um, and this one I particularly like just because I think the name is hilarious. Um But I'm not sure what they're doing for 21. They seem to be doing something in person in May, which I'm like The Broomfield, Colorado, I've been there. Yes. Uh, yeah, so it's in this big huge conference building. Um, but I went once maybe twice. Um And it was a great little conference, um, you know, uh, you and like three or four thousand of your closest friends, um and uh, but the point being is just that This is all like the entire conference is about like how do I work with The apis I need to manage or the apis that I want to consume so that I can turn them into something else. Um, etc, etc so api management, uh You know, it's like this buzzword, but at the same time hugely interesting and potentially important component of any real application Or organization for that matter or organization. Yeah. Um, so that's kind of what I wanted to get to. Um And you know, and like I said, you know, we do and actually I really like, um three scales Uh, kind of what is an api gateway thing here too? Okay. Um And so like I just thought these blurbs were well written. Um, you know and kind of made sense to me But really what I'm getting at here is that The the term api here is just too limiting We don't we can and this is the point of that kong show Where they're like api management is dead It's that the the term is stupid what we have is service management, right? What we you know, whether it's an application programming interface or there's a pigeon involved or it's mechanical turk on amazon, right? What you're doing is you're taking services connecting together and creating new things out of them Or you're offering them to be created new things out of them And so what I think you're really starting to see is that You know, there's there's kind of open source versions Kind of like the three scale is the the management side whereas like camel is the the like Kind of backbone side, uh, you have service buses which kind of deliver Messages between those various services you have You know, and you can have different kinds of service buses We talked about Kafka versus like a true esp last time So Kafka is throughput whereas an esp is is perfection You know, so sometimes you need different ones, right? so long story short is you need, uh Different ways to you want you need all these different services to be able to communicate with each other and you need a way to manage that and This is one thing that really like SOA recognized right with all their kind of high level Kind of protocols and interfaces and specs and all that stuff Is it was really really focused on the management of them Which typical in the software world, right? Uh, it was kind of ahead of its time Because people just wanted to build some services and make them talk to each other, right? They didn't really want to make they didn't want to worry about You know whether or not that service Was going to have to be revised, right? Um, yeah, and then you're rewritten whatever. Yeah Yeah, and then you burn the You know crap out of yourself later by not having introduced any versioning at the get-go Now you have to break all your clients Or rename your service or whatever. Yeah, which could be incredibly detrimental to anybody using that Makes you for having not a good day Um And uh, yeah the original version of pass was pigeon as a service. Uh, joe fuzz That was uh, that was documented and and true everywhere. Um, so the we found it We found it in some caves somewhere. Exactly. Exactly. So the reason you know So we've shifted from a terminology perspective. We've shifted over to service microservice, blah, blah But the but one thing I like about the term api Or and I cannot think of this word actually if uh, detective conan is still there He'll know this answer, which I just cannot think of what it is. But um, We have a different term for the kernel interface. Um, that I'm completely blanking on An api. Yes. Um, sorry. And uh, I could not think of this last night when I was putting the notes together. Um, but The point is is that you have so that's a um, an application binary interface And the reason I almost like that term better than service is because we have a long history with those concepts And so for example with rel rel has been around for, you know, a while while And one of the promises we make with rel between minor versions and then actually with some major versions Is that the api and some apis as well will remain the same or will remain backwards compatible, right? Right Yeah, we we don't break the api on purpose Exactly And if you think of your services in the same way Right that you're going to have to revise them that you're that they are locked up And that you need to have a mechanism To expand them grow them change them whatever without breaking all your clients You will have a much better day um And so that's why I don't Dislike the term, you know, kind of api api when referencing these services Entirely even though I think it most people think of it as limiting because you know the the There is nothing about a service that requires it to be interacted with by a computer per se Mechanical Turk for example, right? Um Yeah But at the same time you still have to operate with them as if they're a computer Like you have to give versions you have to publish how things change, you know all those things Um because otherwise your your life will be difficult um So like I said, I was struggling with like it kind of ended up a little luxury But you know, I kind of wanted to it's hard to it's hard to talk about without like a whole lot of context and then Maybe what we'll start to see is how do we integrate cool services, um, which we're going to talk about a little bit more in a minute. Um Later, uh, you're like in our future episode when we talk about more with the cool store But what I did want to do is um So we could do the points now or we could do I created a small game Oh, did you I did so we can do the game now or we can do points now And I'm going to leave it to mr. Short or the audience to uh to tell us what we should do next Well, I don't want to wait on like the the two minute delay or however long it's gotten to So let's let's go with the points now. Okay. You know, it's like 940. That's good. Yeah, that's what I was kind of thinking. Um, all right, so switching sharing Which I know this messes you all up. So sorry. Oh my goodness. It's I'm yeah, I have a serious challenge. Um Let's see help Langdon I did leave the window open so uh, so good for you that bad. Okay. Um, but uh, yeah, here we go. So Here is the current standings of the sweet sweet internet points, uh with Joe fuzz was in the house right now By the way, I saw I saw which is cool. And I saw he's he's coming up a little bit. Um And netherlands hack him with 4100 points and then norenda with a nice stable 4 000 points. Um And norenda may have some points that he hasn't actually submitted yet. Um, no, he did the one I gave him Okay. Well, he also filed an issue one of them let led directly to this show. So, okay. Well interesting So he should check his discord channel and see if he's submitted them, but he might have submitted them already I just don't know how many points. Um, I don't know where he was and yeah, etc Um, and then uh, no affrictions still still solid there at 3000 points. Um, and then we kind of have uh, We actually had a few different people at the 400 point level. Um, and so I decided to feature somebody else. This is uh, I think we decided this was micolo. Um, yeah, and uh, you know, so 400 points there pretty awesome. Um, and uh, and Detective Conan is uh, is moving on up. So that's awesome. Uh, you know, you can always go back and watch old episodes Um, he gave me a hard time the other day because uh, we didn't have a show last week. Um See, I'm telling you man people feel weird when there's not a level up hour on wednesday morning Well, and it's not just me right right me So we are gonna have a show next week. Um, but the week after that We are also going to be dark because I need to operate on asia pacific time Um, and I don't blame you at all for that So doing a 9 a.m. Show will be unpleasant for everyone. Um, no, I would not so yeah So next week, um I'm hoping to cover the health index of the container catalog But my guest hasn't confirmed because he foolishly took a vacation. Um, and uh, I haven't heard it back from him So, okay. Well, right, right. So, uh, if we don't do that, we will be doing something else. So watch the twitters, uh, and uh, I will be posting it as soon as it is Confirmed one way or the other I was basically planning on giving him the rest of the day today if I haven't heard back today I'll I'll make the call to to push that out to later. Um, but I think the health index is really interesting And so I really likewise. Yeah, so yeah, all right. Um, all right, so your game Oh, wait, I want to see the points. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So today's points Let me grab the links here Uh, so this is the show today Um, so if you haven't done this before you can go and collect your own sweet sweet internet points, um By either going to the level up point form and just entering the code Or the deep link there kind of basically just prepopulates the code for you So, uh, it just makes it a little bit easier a little automation. Yeah, not super hard to begin with, uh, but there it is So now Yeah, I'm ready for this like I intentionally buried the lead on this one. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um Uh, let's see technology You can do it. I believe it. I can do it. I promise. I know I can I'm watching the levels and zoom or not zoom obs and and they're waiting for your Awesomeness to appear. I know the one thing. Um, so I'm using a kahoot, which uh, in general, I'm a fan of Um, the thing that it has a little bit of a challenge with is that it really wants to play, uh, Some really annoying music that I always try to make sure I turn off. Oh, thank you sharing. Thank you very much All right, so time folks Go to kahoot.it. Yeah Um, and then enter this code Um, and you know chris if you want to play you can I was about to ask that like do you want me to play or not? Well, and the real question is I think maybe we should give out some internet points for the winners here Absolutely. So I am not eligible, but absolutely. Yes. Um, but Uh, so what that means is when you go to register you can give a nickname The only way I'm going to figure out the nicknames to the winners and to give those points is if you Use the same nick that you use on your Uh, like on the public profile name. Yeah, exactly. Um, and then I can I can map them back But otherwise there's like nothing about kahoot captures Who you are so right? All right, so we need some more players Link and chat real quick. Oh good call. Yeah, and just make sure everybody knows that we're doing it Is this Remember we're delayed a little bit, right? Like right, right? And then the internet, you know latency and everything Yeah, I will put the let me just put the pin and checks. I don't know if that's yes. Thank you Oh that link doesn't I don't I don't know because I don't know kahoot well enough, but Um, well at least vaders in the house. That's good to know. Um, that's awesome. Thank you d'arth vader Um, we can have a whole family affair Wow, uh Wait, no they did that already and the in the third star wars thingy, right? Yeah And I'll hack them in the house. Yeah, there we go. There we go filling in filling in so Don't wait too long on this. I know I know give it another That's why we're gonna figure out how to how to you know, 30 seconds play around with this a little bit. Um Um Yeah, so uh, if you are unfamiliar with kahoot, I will just explain it Admiral egg bar. That's what I'm talking about. Exactly. Um So, uh, just to explain it a little bit. So what's gonna happen is I'm gonna start it and then it's gonna Um, it's gonna show you a question Then it's gonna show you like some colors for answers But the colors also have like a an iconography. Um, in case you're colorblind So you can pick which answers not all of the answers are single choice. So just keep that in mind So pay attention away fair enough choice or not. Okay. Um, and let's get started So this happens in real time and We need to make sure that there's enough delay. I guess right you got this figured out. I'm sure Uh, yeah, we'll see. I don't know. Yeah, this is my first try. Uh, so I gotta watch Oh, wow, I have to watch like two screens at once. This is fun. I see it. They they have like Uh, so yeah, we've got about a seven second delay. It looks like okay pretend we're on a tivo Yeah, basically And uh, and the nice thing about this is that it will jump to the to the next page as soon as the answers are in So we put ambo pillars in our leaves, right? That was not me Yes, uh, it was funny actually my uh, my wife and I were talking about this this morning and we came up with much better answers Like joke answers than uh, the generator I found yesterday Which I think ambient ambient potato interface was the best. Um, oh, that's a good one. Right, right Uh, but yeah, uh, so oh mr. Short with the fastest. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh because you're you're you're looking at Yeah, so this is why I don't like playing sometimes, right? Right, right So you got to look maybe you should look at the twitch stream not look at the share screen. Yes, let me do that Okay, all right But then we have we have definitely have some leaders. Um, you know, it's just the first question though So I don't want to hang on tight folks. Actually, you know what? I'm gonna put that window over here so I can actually watch the twitch stream without like breaking stuff All right, I'm gonna I'm gonna hit the next button. Yeah, do that All right, we don't have too many questions here. So, uh, okay It's the following are elements of api management. Um And uh, so I showed this to you earlier. Let's see how much you're paying attention Okay, I'm I am a little I will say I'm a little disappointed in myself and my quality of pictures But you know it They're okay So usually I try, uh for much, uh, More terrible photos. Um, so yeah, so the gateway itself, right? Is like kind of how you keep track of What apis there are the publishing aspect is like how you make other people aware of them in a kind of a technical way Monetization is the idea that you want to be able to pay for them somehow So paying for them may be something like just making sure that Um, this part of your organization is staffed well enough. Yes, sir So, uh, people are saying that questions are timing out before they see them Oh on twitch. So like this is why I said meant to meet her right, right? I guess I guess so Uh, I don't know if I can make them No, don't do it slower. Yeah. Well, I mean Is there settings for the actual quiz right now? Probably not I know that you're in it Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. Um Four boxes no question Times out when youtube shows the question Okay. Yeah, like that's that's why like cahoot is weird because it doesn't show you all the stuff on the screen only shows you part of it Anyways, yeah, well, we'll know for next time. Um, So I could end it and start over. Um, but then we'll have some skewed some weird things. Don't worry about it So, well, we'll just so maybe what we'll say is we won't give out any, uh, points for this right? This is for smg's now. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Um Um All right, and then So we definitely had some change there. Um, and who knows how much has to do with the lag of the various platforms Well, let's feel like this. I timed out. That's why I said something. Oh, yeah, right. Yeah. Uh, okay. So next one Which one represent this picture represents an api gateway true or false? Uh False I don't know you're giving it away. You can't answer the question out loud. Yeah. Oh shit You were true or false now No, so so this this was kind of funny is that In a in a sense both are correct But technically this came from the so a management interface from mule soft. Um so Because that was kind of my point through a lot of the episode is that api management service management so a management they're really all the same thing. Um And uh, you know, however Because branding because marketing because whatever there's, uh, you know, there's these subtle differences So I I have some bad news from chat people are like fuck this I quit What? Yes All right, so what should we do, uh, I would just say punt this and we'll we'll try again Yeah, we could try next time we will maybe we should open with a quiz at the next episode like we Like I do with my classes. Um But uh, yeah, so we can we can call it a day if we're having uh, we're having technology troubles Um, yeah kahoot isn't really designed for the long delay. Um, all right It's more like if we were all in the in the zoom session, it would work Right, right, which is how I've used it before and right successful. So mentometer is What like this is why I mentioned mentometer because I think it does handle this better Okay, all right. Well, we will we will do better and uh, and I will I will move my questions Maybe you will get better pictures. Um, you will get better pictures. I hope so, uh, yeah And we don't know that admiral akbar was poised when I the the questions could be getting harder. Um, so, uh, yeah Apologies for that folks. We'll try again next time, you know Live and learn we're all about failing fast on this show, right? Uh, all right, so anything else I wanted to cover. Oh, do we have any other questions kind of from the chat or whatever? I think, um Well, once we got the point it was all no, this isn't working. Um, hang on. Let's see So somebody was asking for previous episodes and would we finally talk about the kates api and everything? I have started my list of Previous episodes and what we talked about in them so that we can kind of like I want to like be able to have them off So we can kind of say go watch episode blah blah blah But I haven't quite finished so hopefully hopefully by next time we'll see. Um, so yeah uh, all right, cool. Um and uh rush me to uh, we apologize that you're winning. Um, and uh But again, I will say you never know there could have been the harder questions coming up So maybe we'll like I said, maybe we'll open the show next time uh with uh, uh more Correctly executed quiz. So Carlos Santana mentioned or no, joe fuzz mentioned. It's interesting when I did Garage cloud training at IBM part of the introduction to kubernetes was how it did and did not relate to soa I thought it was a good take on what's old is new again kind of thing Oh, that's I thought that was an interesting observation joe. Thank you for that. Um, I haven't seen that I would that would be I would find that very interesting I've asked an interesting question. Um, if we're using service mesh Do in then theoretically we don't need to worry about api gateways since it's provided by the mesh itself So, uh, yeah, and I should have elaborated on this before This is one of the things that I think especially if you've been in the industry for a while Is incredibly confusing. Yeah, uh, what we call service mesh today has very little To do with what we think of with api management, right? They used to be the same thing So you are similar at least. Um, so you will find references where a service mesh a service mesh Sounds more like an api gateway, but they're uh, they're kind of I'm sorry. I like the so a in dutch. Um, so You will find references where a service mesh is kind of sounding like an api gateway, but they're not the same thing so a service mesh these days is Kind of not the exposure of the services as much as it is The mesh that lets the services all kind of live together in the same environment um So that's where You know, the distinction is very very fine Um, but they are different and you know, it is kind of important to recognize the difference Because if you go and install a service mesh, so for example, like, you know red hat offers a product called open shift service mesh And it offers a product called three scale They are not the same thing. They do not do the same thing um But it is likely that if you have a significant number of services, particularly if you're exposing them to the outside world for consumption Uh, you will need both or or need you will want both. Yeah, um, potentially Yeah, almost actually I would say if it's if it's for real So, you know, if it's production if you have a You know a not insignificant number of them. I think you want both, uh, almost always Um, so You know, that's my that's my opinion Cool. No, no, no, that's good. No, norenda. I've had to leave. So I want to make sure we answer this question Oh, yeah, yeah Um jpdade likes your shirt Yes, I'm gonna let tilmore answer if it's in the cool store or what's going on with the color of the shirts or whatever I don't know anymore. I just I've given up on like the whole swag side Right. I'm just focusing on you making sure points get out the door. Yeah Yeah, so okay, so stay tuned on on the availability of swag Yeah, um We are we are significantly closer there. We we continue to make progress every day Do we every day? Yes, uh, wouldn't it be nice if there was like a swag service I could see that as uh swag as a service Yes, uh, in some ways, I feel like a lot of places do that But you have to actually put in what you want first Um, so yeah, uh, well, I am sorry that my my little game was a bit of a bust, but we will try to do better next time um I hope we have covered, uh You know this this kind of topic area well enough And you know, we will move on to examples in future episodes, uh using, um, you know I think Having some context grounding is good. Um, and then we can have um, you know The cool store and we kind of not have to give the context when we're kind of talking about the individual services um So yeah But I think then we should call it a show. Yeah, I think I think we're good. Uh next up on the show today is the one and only uh open shift administrator office hour with uh Andrew Sullivan and I will be talking about container registries today. So bring your bring your container registry questions including like What do I do in the wake of docker hub changes or? Oh, right jp dade's instance. How do I he asked yesterday? How do I get quay working on rel 8? That there's an update to quay coming this week. Yeah, because I have I have that question as well Yeah, no, so there's an update I actually had to do this during the one of the shows yesterday There's an update to quay climbing this week that will help with the rel 8 quay question or key However, you want to say it? Sorry if I said it wrong in your world. Um, I'll say the proper pronunciation is key But the company and product is pronounced quay, right? So like I have a lot of keys I don't have a lot of quays, right? So yeah um Cool. Oh kind of kudos says Quay on fedora, you should be able to do that. There shouldn't be anything stopping you from quay on fedora Well, especially if we have the uh rel 8 update So if it's working on rel 8 getting it working on fedora should be should be trivial. Yeah But it's not a rel update. It's a key update quay update Okay, so yeah, um, so yeah, that'll be coming out this week. So it's wednesday We're almost there. Um, hopefully right everything I say on the show about the future is Displamered with it could change. Yeah, I can't predict the future I can only tell you what I've been told and the future may change. So yeah, awesome show today langen. Thank you so much Thank you everybody for joining stay tuned or don't stay tuned to go do something else for an hour and then come back and watch the administrator office hours with Andrew and I and well, you can always watch old episodes of You can totally spend your time watching uh episodes of the level up hour Or you can go and watch those open shift commons briefings if you want to learn more about api management from People who do that for a living right? Yes. I did drop a link to cut through the kong episode in chat So check that out. I actually put them both in there earlier. You did. Yes. Yes. So uh, you you can find them Um, and uh, thanks so much. Yeah, thanks everybody. Have a great day. Stay safe out there