 My buttons are more sped up. So this is the Weaving the World Operations call on Wednesday, December 8th, 2021. And yesterday I had a nice Zoom interview with Jesse Engel, which I posted in raw format on YouTube Unlisted because it is now fodder for a new episode. I'm supposed to talk, have another interview with Daryl Davis tomorrow. Daryl is a personal hero. He responded to my entreaties to friend up on LinkedIn. And then I said, hey, can I interview? And he was like, yep. Yesterday he was in Berlin about to fly home. And I wrote him and said, you know, we still, Thursday was just a placeholder. And he's like, yep, Thursday's fine. So I'm like, awesome. So we're trying to settle down on the exact time, so that Stacey, so that I can put a word out and see who else wants to come. Even though it'll kind of be short notice, but I'm expecting, I haven't checked all my emails yet. So I'm hoping to figure that out right now, right after this call. Did you want to put an RSVP so that you could limit size? Well, also kind of so I know whom to expect. I think that'd be good. Just let me know out of, let me know what an email or something like that would be great. It's a good idea. And so that will give us two more raw files to mess with, which means then there's like, sort of, I think the way I'm thinking about this, sort of four episodes of regular episodes of weaving the world, waiting to be produced. And I now have, Wendy, you don't know this, but I spent the last, since Monday morning, I've been on tenterhooks because I used some of the grant monies from Jim Rutt Foundation to buy a new machine to upgrade, so that my machine wouldn't, Pete and I were busy trying to use Descript, which we think is gonna be like a great way to create a good transcript. And it was comical, like I would click on a word, double click on a word in the transcript, in Descript. And then like 15 seconds later, it would say, oh, you wanna do something with this. And we were both like, okay, so this is unworkable. And for a variety of other reasons, including, I am now going to play with some virtual backgrounds, not, I'm gonna get away from Mordor and move more toward like sharing my brain live behind me and other kinds of stuff. And we also, yesterday, was it just yesterday? No, it was Monday. We had as a guest, Michael Tibinigno, who works at Flow Immersive doing AR visualizations, which is a separate little story. And they do nice work. I like what they're doing a lot and he's lovely. He was just great. He was just totally in and generous and helpful and all that and gave good demo. But one of the things that Flow Immersive did was they modified OBS, which is a complicated but very powerful virtual studio for podcasting and video producing and show, actually live show running, but it's open source. So they modified it, I think, to a skinny down version which they now offer on their website as just something to offer the community, which I wanna compare to and a couple other virtual cans. And then I just wanna get good at one of them. Also, I don't think I need this, but David Bowill has a little $100 keypad which is sort of like a live producer switcher that lets you switch feeds and mix and match and stuff like that. And I don't think I need that, but I just wanna sort of think through, partly I'm trying to think through for the episodes, for the composting calls that happen afterward, for collaboration, for live conversations in context, what's the right format? And I don't know. So part of the reason to play with those things is to figure out what actually starts to work better. And with the old machine, I couldn't run and do Zoom and use my brain or whatever else. So now I've got some capacity. Oh, and Pete, I wanted to ask you what the utilities were that you had installed on the menu bar to monitor CPU usage, et cetera, et cetera, because I'd love to have an idea as well. And I can do that whenever. So anyway, that's like the current status. Pete and I spent a good amount of time on a project plan and working toward merging. The idea here is to, as soon as possible, merge my human efforts with Pete's efforts at automation of the process of going from, hey, you've got a file to download from Zoom all the way to a produced episode that's on a webpage, on a web, on the weavingtheworld.org website with whatever stuff we think is useful around that and after that. With that, I will hit pause. And Pete, do you wanna update it all? All right. Any questions from anyone? I actually have a quick one. I, going back through something, there's a different Zoom recording, there's a number of Zoom recording things. The one I tried yesterday was called Grain, or is called Grain. And it logs in a separate user. And then that user shows up as a person, but the thumbnail is Pete is recording this call. It does, well, I don't know. The idea is that during the call, you click a button, you say, oh, this was a really cool part and it'll actually grab that part. I think it might start transcribing it. It grabs it and it's ready to send a link to a little snippet of video, even during the call. So it's meant for the use case. I'm not sure that I would feel very comfortable inviting another Pete to a Thursday on GM call, but modulo that the use case is for kind of like OGM kinds and calls, Thursday calls, where it's like, wow, that was really smart. It also does transcription. All of my playing with it yesterday was kind of messed up with AWS, the AWS outage. They were impacted by that. And so a lot of the features were kind of clunky and it didn't say that at the time, but afterwards we got an email saying, by the way, if you had a less than stellar experience today, it was our use of AWS was problematic. What's AWS? AWS is Amazon Web Services. Yeah, it's Amazon's backend for a lot of web stuff, a lot of it. So Amazon has basically virtualized a data center, like whatever a corporation might need for data stuff. Bezos gave a command 15 years ago, 12 years ago, somewhere around there. He gave this edict that said, hey, from now on, when you need something from a different department that's informational, you're not allowed to just say, hey, go do this for me custom. You have to figure out, is this a regular recurring thing and write an API for it? An API is an application programming interface, which is a way of telling two programs to talk to each other. So an API might be, hey, I need the sales report printed two up with custom headers. And each of those is a field in the API that specifies some activity. Except AWS is like insanely complex and you could build an entire company never buying any IT infrastructure and using engineering your company to use AWS suptanuts and you would have lots of your bases covered in a way. And then you would be vulnerable to Amazon's ability to keep AWS running consistently all the time. And they've had a couple of really big outages. I would say that completely differently. Oh, good, good. That last part. And I'll get to this, I'll back up a little bit. So there's two parts to Amazon. One of them is running the shopping service. And that, there's a lot of software that it needs and all of that stuff is built by APIs and things like that. It's almost, it is kind of separate. They also needed like servers and all the services that servers provide. I think of it kind of like, if Amazon were a supermarket, you can think of the supermarket, front of house, there's like shelves and goods, back of house, there's like a loading dock and pallets and things that move pallets around and shipping containers and a lot of stuff that makes all of the operations of the front of house work. So AWS is kind of the back of house for Amazon. And it's the back of house for many, many, many big and small companies on the web. So there's only a few big web providers, web service providers. One of them is Amazon, then there's Google, then there's Microsoft, IBM. And Amazon is right up there, AWS is right up there. AWS is huge. And it's funny, I was just reading a couple of days ago, somebody was like, you know, AWS gets the credit for making all the money for Amazon. And it's kind of a faint because it's something they can say, oh, look over there, we're doing this cool thing that's actually providing a lot of value for stuff. And they're reasonably open about how much money is going through that thing and it's a lot, right? The thing that it's a sleight of hand for is the amount of money they're making on the retail. So it's like, oh, yeah, we're making a lot of money on AWS and they don't say anything about the money they're making on top of small retailers. I just Googled it in the estimate is that AWS accounted for 12% of Amazon's total revenue and nearly 47% of Amazon's overall operating income. This is just from an external commentator, so we don't know how reliable that is. So it's like, oh, yeah, we're making a lot of money on AWS and they don't say anything about the money on the operator, so we don't know how reliable it is. But what you said makes sense. So you're not at the mercy of AWS's operations when you're setting up your company. It's commonly said that way. It's like, oh, if you set up on AWS, you have to worry that AWS is gonna fall over and then your business is host. That's the wrong way to set up your business. Amazon just provides a bunch of building block services and on top of that, they are really good at making sure that you have per view and control of those services and they're also really good at. Amazon is all over the world. Amazon, AWS is all over the world. There's three or four, five, six, depending on how you count data centered operations in the US and then there's one and lots of different countries in the world, one or two. But when you set up a service, AWS makes it super simple as super simple as it can be for you to go, okay, my service is running in Ohio and Virginia and Oregon and Northern California. And if it was the one in Virginia that was the and the oldest one, the one in Virginia was the one that had trouble yesterday. AWS presents a lot of capability for you to go, I don't care, all the services routed themselves over to Oregon without me doing anything or knowing about it or caring about it or my customers caring. So whenever a company, and Grain did a pretty good job of this in their email, they said, AWS Virginia fell over yesterday and that impacted our services and we need to do a better job of making sure that if one availability zone falls over, it doesn't affect all of us. Hold on. The really funny part of the AWS outage yesterday was that a bunch of the support services for AWS itself, them knowing what's up and what's down and being able to tell customers about it is running in Virginia and wasn't decentralized. So they had a big, a bunch of the tech people on Twitter yesterday were making fun of AWS for falling prey to their own non-decentralization of services that they should have decentralized, which was fun. I think that was a nice, that was a good description. Yeah, yeah. I knew pieces of that, but not, you know, not everything tied together, which you do so well all the time. Thank you. Welcome. You do. So yesterday it was, actually, there weren't many people pulling their hair out. The ones I stopped pulling their hair out were it's like, okay, so I guess my Roomba runs on AWS and poor little Roombas were running around and they couldn't contact the cloud so they didn't know how to get to the charging dock so they were running out of juice and people's televisions and all kinds of like IoT-ish kinds of things that depend on the cloud stopped working. Luckily, there weren't a lot of people going, oh my God, my whole service is down and I'm screwed. And the other set of people, tech people on Twitter was like, oh, it's like a snow day for, you know, for IT people because you can't do anything because your services are down. I'm looking for a good article for why I went down. I don't know, the wording was actually really funny. It was something about the availability of some networking devices was compromised or something like that. So I, you know, you can think of, okay, well, like all the chips in the network devices blew up or something or somebody tripped over a cord or. Yeah, I don't know. And a part of the massive engineering effort that is AWS is like good graceful failover so that when anything happens in any corner of it that the services keep finding resources to run and every now and then they don't do it right. And, you know, Facebook had a big fail recently because somebody misconfigured a routing server and that just like took them down hard for a day including Instagram and WhatsApp. It was really bad. It was like a major, major screw up. Okay. Any other questions about the tutorial on AWS and how that works? Yeah, I actually have one more which is either going to be a really interesting in-depth question or a stupid question. I'm not sure. When blockchain, right? When we start seeing kind of a second version of an internet running in the background kind of thing comes along. Help me out like, is that a replacement for all this kind of stuff? Or like, is that kind of a parallel thing that's going to end up happening one day or is it, you still need things like AWS for that? Blockchain itself. Yeah. Is having a trouble with the actual analog parts of feet? There's something in that question, but it's not quite blockchain. Blockchain is a service that runs on things like AWS services. Okay. Blockchain is, you can, I think, I have a thing to say. I'm fact checking it in my head. Blockchain, when you say blockchain, it's basically a database. Okay, that makes sense. So it's a decentralized database. Except Soran has a question. So I think like thinking, I think blockchain is a database as a concatenation of records, but thinking of it as a database I think is really like off because it is an incredibly slow database that you don't want to put much of anything into. You only want to put like the key to the last big block of database stuff that you did in an actual database somewhere else. You might want to put like a key to that. Right. Okay. So hollow chain or, you know, I mean. So the other part of your, I mean, the pony inside your question, I have to share my thing that's been going around Twitter. It's super funny. Go for it. And it's basically what Jerry was saying. He says, hi, I'm from the future. Here's a slide pitch from a hot news startup. So we leverage an open source technology called SQL. It's a millions of times faster than common blockchain technologies. It allows us to do innovative things like delete data, centralize, which makes it dramatically easier to maintain. So this is describing 40 or 50 year old technology, database technology, SQL databases. It is millions of times, literally millions of times faster as a database. And, you know, you can do other things that are useful. That's why it's funny. Yeah. And also database experts have spent 50 years tuning databases to be super high performance, very reliable, feel safe, you know, mirrorable, all that kind of stuff. And here comes a bunch of people thinking they're just going to use blockchain for that. And that that's like not actually true or doable. Right. It's not efficient. There's nothing beneficial. Exactly. Imagine if you had a recipe to make muffins and every time you wanted to drop a spoonful of flour into the bowl. You had to check with 100 people first. And you had to you had to run a safeway and then they had to go to the mill and then they had to go like run, run the combine over the field like 50 times. You had to consult with 20,000 other people before you could do it and mill, mill the grain and then come back and then like put it back into your spoon. Right. That's kind of that's kind of what blockchain is doing. Yeah, I meant more. So, you know, I don't maybe it's a very specialized database. And it's useful. A couple of replies for that one. The three and web three stands for latency or it's the number of requests it can handle per second. Ethereum handles like 15 requests per second. It's amazing. Anyway, there is a pony in your question which is the web three thing, this whole decentralized internet thing. If I've got a bunch of Holoports, you know, so I'm not quite up on all of my whole technology but a Holoport is a little box that you plug into your router and to your power and then people can use little bits of the computing power on it to power the Holosphere or whatever. That is a replacement more or less for an AWS data center. Yeah, you could use the Holo computing environment rather than AWS. And if I pull the plug on my Holoport, there's 10,000 or 100,000 other Holoports and you wouldn't even notice. To pick up the slack. Yeah. But yeah, I guess the same kind of thing with blockchain. It's kind of the blockchain version of AWS, right. It's going to be slower and clunkier, you know, more distributed, which is a good and bad thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's just in some of the conversation I've been having, they're using the word blockchain but they really mean something more along the lines of Holochain. Yeah. So that's kind of why I use that word, but yeah. A small side note. In the early days of the inner tubes, the inner tubes suddenly as it got popular, the inner tubes suddenly started getting slow and everybody's like, ah, crap, this thing won't scale. And this dude named Van Jacobsen invented a way to compress the headers on TCPIP messages and sort of solve that bottleneck, importantly in the early days of the inner tubes. So that was one person who came up with a clever solution that solved what looked like a scaling problem for the early internet. There's a bunch of people like sitting, I think like this in rooms everywhere thinking, okay, so the blockchain is really energy-consumptive and it's going to burn up the earth and Pete can point to what's her name's essay. Has a really interesting name. I don't remember anymore. Okay, I can look it up. I can look it up too. Yeah, anyway, there's a great essay which is like, this is all completely irresponsible. We're destroying the earth. Like stop using blockchain-y sort of things. And then proof of stick, proof of work and a bunch of other variants that are trying to say, how do we do this actually ecologically sound like? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And work more quickly because any kind of proof of for every transaction is like you've got to run to the safe way and they've got to run to the field and run the combine. Right, right, right. Yeah, there's one company I've been talking to called Quiznet that seems to have done it. Now I don't know enough about the tech to dive in but they've been working on it for 10 or 12 years. So 2020, I think of them as pretty new, this one, right? Chris Bijou, Molly Sargent. I don't know, cause I'm not, all I can see is a cool ribbony kind of background without any brain. Let's click on, oh, you're not seeing my brain? No, we just seeing your desktop. Oh, so right now you are not actually seeing the brain. No. Oh, that completely sucks. Cause I'm sitting here screen sharing thinking I've been showing you my brain. No, but it's a pretty ribbon background. Oh, so I have to solve for that cause usually when I do exactly this, you see my brain and I don't actually understand why it's not showing you my brain. Oh, oh. Yeah, it says the top nav says the brain but there's nothing. But there's nothing in the screen. I wonder if it's screen recording permissions or something like that. That's possible. Yeah, but it's not stopping me when I do screen sharing to get permissions again on this new machine. Yeah. Okay, must troubleshoot. Damn. Okay, that was, I thought it was running just fine and I thought you guys saw my screen sharing a couple of times. We thought you were being weird. We're trying to get to the point where you were screen sharing but you weren't. Huge. Okay, and I had no idea. Thanks for the link to the crypto art thing. All right, I gotta figure out what's broken there. Yeah, so were you about to go look for the website? Is that what you want? No, I was just gonna show you Quiznet. Yeah, the Quiznet in my brain and then I launched the website and just to see if that was the company you were talking about. Exactly. And so, Pete, do you wanna screen share the project plan? Is that a good way for us to make progress here? Yeah. Yeah, what are your next steps going forward? Is it more, and is that what you wanna cover? Like what are you hoping to get out of today? Yeah, so what I'd like to do, what I wanna do is do the simplest thing we could possibly work to stand up some episodes, including some, what we're, I guess, I guess calling composting episodes, which is the, you know, there's a normal string of episodes that look and smell like podcasts. And then there's these backup episodes or secondary episodes. And there might be one, there might be several, I don't know, because if we were to do this seriously and really try to undertake the task, like the galactic encyclopedia, this could unfold kind of, you know, recursively in some strange ways. So we have no intention of doing that. We're just trying to take small bites out of the problem. So I'd like to stand up three, four regular episodes. And if tomorrow I have the interview with Daryl, then I'll have the materials for four episodes, for regular episodes, but I have, I have, I have convoked none of the composting episodes. So I need to invite OGMers to show up to view an original episode and then say, oh, okay, here's what was covered. Here's, you know, here's what we could add to it. And then see what different people mapping and different tools think about it and then build toward the shared memory that we've been trying to work towards slowly over time. And in the meantime, Pete is trying to automate as much of the process in the background. And then there's two different layers there. One is the simple thing about how do we get an episode page standing with a clean transcript of the episode, a link to the audio recording on some podcast service, a link to the video on YouTube and some metadata and room for probably at the bottom, but room for the other stuff that comes out of the composting call. Meaning anybody who comes up with a chart that has a URL, we can drop it in a shared Google drive. And we, you know, it could be a scaffold diagram just like Pete just showed. And that would be linked to on the bottom of the episode page. So there's that. And then Pete went and crabbed, we're sort of calling it, the Thursday call on the metaverse that we had a couple of weeks ago. And he spent a bunch of time, I was like sweat and effort, building out individual pages for the things referenced in the call and then sort of really kind of creating in one directory on a separate bolt in Insidian, really kind of building out a mini wiki for the episode with a bunch of resources and coming soon pages and all that kind of stuff. And so the question then is, gosh, okay. How much of that is automatable? Don't know. How do we do this as a crowd? How do we, you know, you've seen the videos of fire ants eating a lizard. That's probably a bad analogy, but how do we crowdsource building, you know, feeding the fungus in this way? If that makes sense. Because then what we want to do is invite other communities and other people who are enthusiastic context weavers and mappers and whatnot in to sit and work with us and go crazy doing this and lather and repeat. Right? And then like the call with Jesse was really interesting because he and Good Workhouse are doing a whole bunch of interesting things in vows and NFTs to try to fund Haitian artists and other artists. Their second, Pete, their second season they're thinking is going to be working with incarcerated artists in California. And so they just kind of want to be the starting node of a bunch of goodness that rolls out from the work that they're doing. And I'm really interested in a mind meld or an action meld or something like that with what they're doing because a lot of it feels, and then this is I think Pete's instinct feels like things we ought to be doing. From the connections to art and artists to the infrastructure and other sorts of things that are happening there. Go ahead, Wendy. Yeah, it just occurred to me that let's say there's a hundred episodes out, right? And I just stumble across one of them. What would be interesting to me? So I came in kind of from the side, right? What would be interesting to me is to have some way to follow a thread. Absolutely. Like I loved this. So I was just thinking as you were talking like what would that thread be? I think it would be less interesting to have a thread as a topic because so many things are already done by topic. I think it might be interesting since we're trying to weave something new and we're not sure what that new thing will be. We want to encourage something to emerge is to ask a question and to say these are all starting to answer part of that question or right? And what do you think about that? So I was just about to screen share and then I realized, oh, you can't see my brain. Yeah, no, I can't. I mean, it won't help because you can't see my brain yet and I have to troubleshoot that. So when I'm busy doing my weaving in the brain, which is just one of hopefully many different expressions of this, I'm actively looking for the threads you're talking about. And the one obvious thread is, hey, these are all episodes of Weaving the World and they're all gonna be connected at the Weaving the World and they're all gonna be in order by date order of the episodes or numeric order, season one episode, one kind of numbering, right? So they'll all be in that order by default, which is a little bit of a timeline and is really simple and that will be mirrored on the website so you'll be able to navigate that way. But then we're gonna tag things up so you'll be able to navigate through a tag space. But then as we start to connect narratives, I'm busy like when I talk to Darrell tomorrow, I'm really sort of trying to digest and weave what causes people to change their minds who have what we think of as pretty radical or just dangerous views and how do you pacify and connect with them and all about trust and respect and dignity and all of those are narratives. And what I do in my brain is I create simple thought names that are collective, that are more important nodes which I usually call are purple that are kind of opinionated. And those become threads you can follow. So with Locke, every episode will have lots of little tendrils and trailers and dendrites, it's a to channel Judy, sort of dendrites too, the connective stories, similar things, et cetera, et cetera. And in a perfect world, every episode is a gateway drug to the larger woven set of background context, story, et cetera. Does that make sense? It does. So what I heard in what you said though was a question which was how do we get people to change their minds, right? Which is different than a statement like neuroplasticity is the way to make an understanding neuroplasticity is the way to understand how to create new thinking, right? So, but not different from connected to. So under how do people change their minds, there would be something about neuroplasticity and changing their mind, then there's a thing about recovering from trauma to change your mind, then there's a thing about logic and debate to change your mind, and those are all merely different ways of changing one's mind, right? And then there might be some editorial opinion about all this stuff about debate and logic is kind of pales in comparison to having dinner with somebody and getting to know them and then like bringing them to some new thing, which is what I would sort of say. I think what the question offers, and we'll have to, I mean, I don't think this is an answer necessarily yet, it's something to play with, is that it invites answers to the question from different disciplines, right? Instead of it all kind of siloed if, depending on how we phrase a statement, it could more easily get all the related things can get more easily siloed in one area or one discipline. And I think the beauty of what you're doing is the potential for weaving in stuff from all these different areas, right? You could have using, not saying you wanna go here, but just as an example, right? Using ayahuasca can help change your mind, right? Like on things or help you give you a new perspective, right? So it just, it invites more, gives you more room to have met someone and say, oh, now that fits in and have that make sense to your audience and have your audience go, where did he just go there? That makes no sense. Absolutely, absolutely, entirely, yes, totally. Dr. Dress, you had a comment or a question? Yes. I was wondering for the compost hit through me on. I think honorifics are really important, so. For the compost. Sorry, you think so. I was just wondering, what about if we hired one or two editors, people with like the technical skills, where we could, even if we went in two different directions, work with us. Like, I don't know if you've ever, you probably haven't watched Cupcake Wars, but if I could just. I have because my nieces were mad about Cupcake Wars like four years ago. So I have unfortunately watched a couple episodes of Cupcake Wars. Perfect, so you know what the, they get people that can create exactly what they're envisioning in their mind. They might not have been able to create those scenes, but they can envision it. And I'm thinking of sort of like the OGM crew is sort of directing the editors what they want to say. And maybe we can, I mean, I think that could be interesting in itself, but maybe I'm, I don't know what you think. I like it. So I'm on the verge of trying to figure out, how do we hire somebody specifically to perfect the transcripts? Right. I have a funny feeling that the descriptor notice script going back and actually making a clean transcript and there's different degrees of clean is going to be a very time consuming job. Not a hard job. Like if Pete or I sat down with the transcript and applied some time, it would melt. Like boom, boom, boom. And it'd be really pretty at the end because we've both done that in other cases, but we both are really wildly aware that this is insanely time consuming. And the good news about the script is that it shortens so many parts of that task, especially once your machine catches up with you. But we may want me to hire somebody only for that task on an as needed basis. Now, what you're saying is different from that. So I want to come back and ask what you mean by editors doing which particular kinds of work in the middle here? Okay, so first, I'm sorry about his offer up a phrase. Yeah, like it might be that you mean content manager. No, I mean somebody who actually has the skills so that if we say, you know what, we put this clip over here, put this here. Like it's almost like, again, I'm thinking of this as almost like a reality game of ordinary people creating this thing together. But the other thing I want to say, which sounds so different from what we're used to, is that the way our world is structured now, we think of like less jobs and saving money as a good thing. But I think we're actually trying to do something different because we're looking to spread. So I would say the more jobs we create, the better. Instead of looking at the cost of it, looking at is engaging people as value. You mean as part of feeding the fungus and doing our work, the more people we hire, the better. Is that what you're saying? Correct. Correct. I like that. And then a bit of what you just said, so Pete is like, has radar for new tools and other kinds of things is phenomenal. And on Matter Roast a couple of days ago, he pointed us to what's it called, Touch Something? Touch Designer. Touch Designer, which is being used to do crazy ass modern shows on Twitch TV and other kinds of places because you can use it to create animations on screen and a whole bunch of other funky stuff. And then he just pointed us to Grain, which feels to me like a feature posing as a company, because it does one thing really nicely that shouldn't actually be a company for $15 a month, right? It does transcription. I didn't get to try it. But transcription is something you can cut a license with Otter and like offer for just about anywhere, right? I'm just saying it doesn't feel like- It's like if you said, oh, there's Zoom and there's call recordings. One of the things that you would invent out of that is Descript and then another thing is Grain. Grain, totally, exactly. Grain actually does what it does better than Descript, right? It's like I want these, they call them stories. This is a highlight, this is a highlight, this is a highlight, this is a highlight, this is a story done, right? And probably they're architecting it to feed into Facebook stories, Instagram stories, whatever. And they're like, hey, there's lots of people making Zoom. Let's write some software that makes that little bridge, right, which is great, except from my perspective, it's a feature posing as a company. But also, Stacey, in an ideal world, there are 50 participants or 20 participants on a really interesting conversation, six of whom are busy weaving stuff using MindMapy or Romy, you know, textual tools or whatever else or Mark Caranza and MX. And then every now and then 12 of us tap a button or click something on our screen that says that was really noteworthy. And there's something that detects that 12 of us did that at this moment and it goes and it finds what that clip is and automatically does what Grain does and says, ooh, I've just made a pretty clip out of the place where everybody went, ooh, this was cool. I've just created a clip for y'all and go crazy reposting it anywhere you want because here's a link, which is a shorthand direct link to that little event, that little thing you liked. And if you want, you can stretch the boundaries of it because maybe the automation didn't quite understand properly what the boundaries were, but it's trying. It's like, it's noticing maybe topic shifts, right? And when we opened into a topic, that would be, and right this minute, we could do that manually, but it would be an enormous amount of work to go back and find the clip. Like editing video and audio is this huge time sink because it's temporal, right? You have to go back, you have to go back, you have to listen to it when it's done, you have to check it and check it. That reminds me of, I think it's on Coursera when you watch a lesson or a video there, you get to press a like, basically a heart and then the next person to see it, it aggregates those so that you see on the progress bar at the bottom, I don't know what that's called actually, but the timestamp bar on the bottom where the most people hit hearts. So you can just kind of like fast, after a while, you can just fast forward to the part. That's actually a great shortcut. That's a great shortcut. Where did you see that? I think it's Coursera. Do you know, are you familiar with Coursera? I'm familiar, but I've never taken a course on it. Yeah, okay, so I mean, a lot of them are free. Yeah. Well, maybe it wasn't, it was something, it was either, and it's not you to me. I don't think, I'm pretty sure it's Coursera. Cool. Pete, do you want to riff on your comment on Wendy's thought? Yeah, another way to think of what Wendy's suggestion, the suggestion of like, how do you create a through line through a bunch of things is smart, I think, and framing it as answers to a question, I think is really smart. Keep going. I was going for people that don't want to interrupt you. It reminded me of the story that I bumped into today, even though it's from July. Somebody felt like he was a really bad storyteller, and then he taught himself how to be, what good storytellers do to create an engaging narrative. And it's, I mean, it's stuff that we should kind of know, but it's also good stuff to remember. So a couple of thoughts on top of that. Story threading is all about turning exactly this act into a career, doing the work to tell stories over other matter, other materials, other things that got said. Then long ago, I did that video on Nugget's narratives and points of view. Is this familiar to all of you? Pete remembers it, I can do it in 30 seconds. A Nugget is any addressable piece of content. A tweet is a Nugget, but a whole book can be a Nugget, but really you kind of want this paragraph in the middle of the book. A video can be a Nugget, but really you want this clip, so that's the Nugget, right? So Nuggets exist in the world. Narratives tie together Nuggets. So I wanna create a narrative that says, hey, here's why I think that we went into the great, the global financial crisis of 2008, 2009. And I would construct a narrative that assembled a bunch of wise things I found Nuggets that I found already published, and then I would create a few of the Nuggets myself and put them into the world so that other people might weave with them. So the narrative can be retrospective or prospective, like here's what I think we need to do policy-wise to get out of the global financial crisis right now or here's what we missed or an analysis or whatever like that. And so a narrative is a story of the kind that I think we're talking about here. And then a point of view is a collection of narratives. And so Stacy might publish a narrative about how to create engaging shows that change people's minds online. And I might just include her whole narrative as part of my point of view because I'm like, that was awesome. Stacy speaks for me and everything she said in that thing is perfect or that except I would subtract this one thing you would offer some editorial but you would collect a bunch of narratives and you wouldn't have to originate all the narratives. Your point of view on some domain, some field of endeavor would just be like, I believe these things to be true. Like these narratives express how I think the world works what I think is going on. And the narrative might be that the world is run by a bunch of democratic pedophiles who drink children's blood and are running the world from Comet Pizza's basement. That could in fact be the narratives because people are busy inventing those narrative threads and putting them in the world in exactly this way. And so Nugget's narratives and points of view is an attempt to say this is a really good way of the future of expression and media and books and movies because any of the nuggets is reusable in many different narratives and points of view. And a good nugget serves multiple purposes. A really good nugget is a triple word score because I used it to say the global financial crisis Wendy used it to explain Bitcoin and somebody else used it to do something else. That's a really juicy nugget and hopefully it would be sort of voted up and hopefully the author would get some NFT tokens minted for them and make a fortune from like the best nuggets in the world. But that's a dreamland, a dream scape. Go ahead, Wendy. Yeah, so this is what I was thinking of when I was sharing with you guys that this, and this goes back, right? The data, the information data, knowledge sets, wisdom thing, right? To me that's very similar, right? Or is it not? Because I know that over simplifies it and that's old information sent into the field, but the new words are interesting because it gets us away from kind of a colder version and into more of a storytelling version, which I like very much. And Pete and I, I think, I'm speaking for you, Pete, so you'll correct me, but I think Pete and I both have a slight adverse reaction to the DIKW pyramid. I could tell, though. I don't. You don't? Okay. Well, I sort of do because like Maslow's pyramid, it gets misused a whole bunch. And my mentor at Penn, Ross Aikoff, was one of the people who might be the progenitor of the DIKW pyramid. He has some paternity in it because that was part of his field back in the 40s, I think. And so, yes, actually, because in some way these stories are our attempts to distill wisdom. Out of, and the nuggets live at lower levels in that pyramid, although a really good nugget contains wisdom, it's just that it's wisdom about a very specific thing. That's why I like it. Because, right? Yeah. So when I was writing up, remember I wrote up something based on the video of Neil Postman talking, right? And I was trying to get at the same thing, like how do we weave something? How do we now take this kind of iteration of a pyramid and say, but right now, what we wanna do is we wanna bring this stuff together in a way that eventually gets us to some semblance of wisdom. So what I love about nuggets is you're basically saying there's something embedded in this small little thing that has value. It's not just a piece of information. This piece of information has more value than a different piece of information. They're not equal because it's a nugget. Yeah, it's value to change the words like that. I like it. Stacy. So this may not be the nuggets that you're looking for but I'm always thinking about like the beginner's mind. For this call, Pete's answer on what AWS is, to me that's a nugget. And I actually think there's a whole audience, not that you guys are familiar with, but that I know that would love that nugget in three minutes. Absolutely. And that's why if there were people that had, I don't know how to pull that out and do it, but I know how to say that's a good one. So Pete's explanation of AWS a moment ago would make a perfect nugget. Right, right. And if we had a beautiful AI system that when the three of us were like, ooh, that's a nugget, please, please AI, go find this thing and sort it out, that would be really pretty cool. Right, or we get to the end of something and somebody says, yeah, the last two minutes of conversation, boop. Yep. And I'm going to swap. You kind of don't know it until it's done. It's not like you can highlight it before it happens. You kind of get to the end, like you were saying Jerry before and kind of go, ooh, that was good. That last couple of minutes worth of conversation. If only there were a service where something was logged in to Zoom and recording and then you could go back and like snap this part. Exactly. That's great. So I've got to switch places, but keep going. Stacey, what you, that AWS thing was a nugget. Sounds a lot like five minute university. I don't know if I can get the key off of it. Okay. Five minute university. Okay. Three minute university. But here's the thing. If we're counting on the automation for, you know, 10 people to click a heart, that's great. But what about the beginner that's not there? What about having actual beginners decide what the nuggets are? Because I don't know how many people would, I mean, I don't know. Most people, as far as technology in this area, know more than I do. So something that they might not think is worthy of, you know, pulling out, I would think is worthy of pulling out. I don't know. That makes sense. Yeah. But then to me, you're talking about the next layer whereas this is valuable for this audience. Yes. Right? So this is valuable is currently not, even in the example I gave, is not tagged by who's listening or like what type of audience it might be valuable for. But that could be easily another layer presuming that we wave magic wands and we can do all the things that we want to do. But I love that, right? And then presumably if it somehow, if say one clip, let's say this whole conversation was available and people who are more tech inclined listened to it, they to your point wouldn't necessarily tag that one. And then let's say for some reason, it went into a thread that eventually got connected to something else which had a bunch of beginners listening to it and they started tagging something totally different. I can, that's what I love. Yes, right? We just, that's what we want to have happen that doesn't mean it needs to happen at the beginning when it was first posted. It means that the capability has to happen for things to evolve over time, right? And for it to still be available and not siloed in, oh, this is only a good video for people who are wanna listen to how to weave things better. This is also a good video for people who wanna, listen to how tech works the in ways they didn't necessarily know, right? So to me, that's the beauty ultimately of where we could go with this, you know? It doesn't have to, we don't have to force the videos on, I guess in my view, I always thought, it's not like you have to force the videos on different audiences, they will find it eventually. My apologies for being out for the last couple of minutes. April's having a small crisis because she's traveling on Saturday for a week and needs to get a visa for which she needs the results from Kaiser of a COVID test she took yesterday which turned out negative, except the QR code for that isn't working. So I've got to troubleshoot that in a moment. Anyway, so what did I miss? You solved it, right? You solved a little bit. You missed us talking about how it would be great that every nugget could also be tagged for the audience that might benefit the most from it. And every audience could do their own tagging. I mean, like hypothesis. We were just saying too. Hypothesis, which is sort of this, you know, a shadow internet where you can attach comments to any webpage, you could attach shadow, tag clouds that are relevant to whatever the audience might be and tag things up for your people. And then the AI could say, oh, other people in your audience really like this and this is new. So suggestion for you today to watch this or to connect it into your personal brain or whatever. Exactly. Yes. Well, actually, let me try to risk control of the call. Oh, excellent. There's a coup. One of my favorite topics. You know, I'm trying to get used to coups because we're in the middle of a rolling coup from Trump. So we better get accustomed to this. One of my favorite topics, by the way, is Ferris metallurgy and the history of it. Anyway. You mean alchemy kind of stuff or just metal? No, this is actually, it's not even just metal. It's just iron. Steel, which is totally fascinating. And there's some really cool sub stories in here. Anyway, that's not where I was resting control for. I liked this diagram and it's missing some things. I also want to make sure that, so we kind of briefly looked at this workflow diagram. The thing that I hope we leave this call with is a couple. So this is kind of like a map of the things we could start to automate. Jerry, generously, that's the wrong adjective, but generally said, I'm trying to automate as much of this as possible, which is not quite true. It's more like we have mapped many things that we could automate. And I've also come to the realization that there's no sense in trying to automate all of this before we start doing stuff. So the main thing that I think the next steps are doing a little bits of this by hand with the things that we've got here. And Jerry, I wonder what part of where I was going with this is there's Jesse, there's the crowd call, there's two more people. Daryl Davis. Michael. Daryl YL. One R or two? One R, Davis. And the other one? Jesse, Davis, Jesse, sorry. And the other two episodes, you mean? I feel like you have four. There are four, yeah. So the metaverse, actually the metaverse call and then the betterverse call after that. Some segment of each, not the whole calls. Do you think of this as the metaverse call? Yes. The one that, okay. That's correct. So you've already got like a bunch on the first one. Yeah. And then the betterverse call, which you can link also to the metaverse call because it was like a follow on where it was a sequel to the metaverse call. Yes. And those I'm thinking was the first four episodes. Okay. So I think the next step, going back to our friend Adina, it doesn't make sense to, she had a rule of three thing. When you see something three times, then it starts to be a feature that you can talk about. Kind of the same thing. We want to do things a couple of times by hand and then observe what we did and then automate them. So the next step is deciding one or two of these to work on and then do the next steps of them. Which also means standing up a webpage for the episode somewhere and embedding it on the website somehow, whether we do it manually or whatever, but getting that done. But the reason I was sort of emphasizing automation is, wouldn't it be great to do it the first time in a way that's automatically replicable and so that we could stand up new calls quickly and new pages quickly and directories quickly? Cause that's all for automation, but we don't know what to automate yet. Or we don't know where to allocate our limited automation resources. Cool. And wasn't there another, you were talking about a Michael from Flow Immersive? Yes, but that was not an episode. I wasn't thinking of that as an episode of Weaving the World, although we could easily convene one around the stuff that he's got. Yeah. I mean, his AR visualization technology is interesting in that way that we could, if we had somebody with a data set, et cetera, that would make a really interesting call. And if you were up for it. And Jay, was that an FTP call or was it jammed? That was this Monday's FTP call. Wendy, you should make sure to find that recording and watch it. I can find it and give you a link to it right now. That'd be great, yeah. Yeah. I think you, it's not what you want, but it's really cool and might feed into what you want. Yeah. And the video is unlisted because I unlist the FJB calls only. Those are the only ones of the, there's the link to the YouTube. And I think you'll enjoy what he presents. He doesn't present it until the last 10 minutes of the call. So if you wanna scrub through until you see him doing stuff, the rest of the call is good too. Okay, last 10 minutes. Yep. The thing to look for is visualized to data. Oh, whoops. In the background. Sorry, sorry, sorry. There we go. Sorry. The, his Instagram account is cool too. And he's got a cool AR representation of, he's got his wife, the mother of their new kid. And in a living room or something like that. And behind her, alongside her is the AR representation of data, quantified cells data. Cyber changes and breast feedings. And that one went viral and it's an engaging thing. And the thing I offered him toward the end of the call is interesting to me in retrospect through this conversation about storytelling, which is I mentioned to him that in that short video of his wife explaining what happened, she makes the point at the end and just kind of in passing, doesn't make any big deal out of it that here in the data, these brighter points are when Michael started doing night feedings, which was a big change in the routine and allowed her to get more sleep. And so for me, otherwise it's just a cloud of data that's like the rhythmic pattern of diaper changes and breast feedings. And it should look like rhythmic patterns and it's not interesting because it's just a rhythmic pattern of something going on. The shifts in behavior, like, oh, then he was able to use a bottle at night or whatever, and that created a benefit. There's a story there and that's really interesting. And there the data really stands out and works beautifully. And they sort of told it in passing and I'm like, that's kind of where your story is, right? How do you actually draw the spotlight to that and then lather it and repeat and go deeper on that? Really good observation. Because that's when the light bulb went off in my head. Up until that moment, I was like, and my little inner script was going like, nicely done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just looks like the cloud of data you would expect from baby behavior that somebody went and actually measured and tabulated and then visualized. So. I have another diagram to show real quick. Cool. This is kind of, this is Stacy and me working together looking at weaving the world. And podcasting in general, actually. So what's the first call, Jerry? And what are the next steps? By first call, you mean what is the sequence of episodes? Well, which episode are we going to produce next? Actually, is the question in character. Well, if we did it in order of what I imagine would happen, it would be metaverse, metaverse, Daryl, Jesse. I think that Jesse, I think that Good Workhouse is a timeline. And I would do. Oh, and we need to actually produce that quickly. Good point. And I said we would do something quickly for him, although I wasn't thinking in terms of all the stuff we want to do. I was thinking of just putting up the episode, you know, cleaning it up a little bit. But then if we cleaned it up a little bit and so, okay. So kind of what that means is I have to figure out what an intro and outro look like. And we have to figure out what an end screen looks like. End screen, not essential. But if this thing is going to look like a video podcast, it needs an intro and an outro. And then I don't know that there's stuff inside the episode that I want to edit out. Because one of the questions is what level of production quality are we looking for here? At very high levels of production quality that involves intense editing and also layering in of graphics and other kinds of things, which at this moment, I don't think we're going to spend any effort on. If there were some hiccup in the middle, somebody knocks on the door and you go get a package, then you'd want to cut that out. That'd be easy to find. Nothing like that happened while Jessie and I were talking. He's got a message to you in our shared channel. Yep. This topic, by the way, let's not publish that. So there is editing. Okay, so something that's on the recording, he wants clipped up. Well, I don't know if it's on the recording or not, but there's a topic not to cover, not to share. And a small side note, at the beginning of the recording, he was in this large empty room with a light over his head and I could barely see his face. So I'm like, do you mind moving somewhere where you have more light on your face? And he's like, hold on a second. He goes next door into a gallery space that has been fed and built by this guy, Jim, his name is in my notes, for 35 years. And it's full of objects of art. And he gives me a tour and I don't have the recording on. But in the meantime, he's saying things that are probably not, like, shouldn't really show up on the recording, but it's beautiful. And I'm like, oh man, should have started recording when I said, do you mind moving to a place where we get more light on your face? Because that whole piece of it, we could have elided some of what he said, but that whole piece of it was magical because of the space. He just turns his device around and it's like showing me, I'm like, he's entering a wonderland. This is a God forsaken wonderland. Anyway, so I missed all of that. So when he's sitting there in front of something, that's just like a wee little piece of the space that he's actually in. Anyway, small side note and missed opportunity in some sense. I'm like, oh, heartbroken that we didn't do that. I could also ask him to go back and do a quick visual tour and drop that in. Anyway, in terms of next actions, I need to create an inch. I think it's important that I create an intro to natural and that I edit those together onto the video of Jesse and my talking and then kind of post that. And then we sort of say here, Jesse, you can use this anywhere you want to. And then we look at that and say, okay, what does that mean for weaving the world? Like, how much more do we need before this smells like an episode? And then my next step is to invite people to watch that and come into a composting episode so that we have our first follow-up episode where we have more people mapping, weaving, doing whatever. So I think that's the next sequence of steps. Am I missing stuff? What would you change? I've got another thing, but Stacey, how did you grab that as a list kind of? So I think I get the production stuff and then bringing that and bringing the output of the production stuff into composting mode. I think there's another set of activities I think of as the marketing plan. How do we let people know that there's composting happening? How do we start to let people know that weaving the world is a thing? And so this is where my old startup muscles are like, oh, there's a social media person posting something to the Weaving the World Twitter account and the Instagram account. And that's crossed with getting in touch with Alex at Good Workhouse and saying, hey, let's do a co-brand thing. Weaving the World points to Good Workhouse, Good Workhouse points to Weaving the World on Instagram. Reciprocal advertising. That sounds great. I love it. And to that end, you might wanna set a date for the weaving conversation. Yes, no, I need to, I think we should immediately plan a date and time like Monday afternoon, next week. You might wanna give people a little more time to make space in their schedule for it. And depends on how many people you want to attend. I kind of would like to do it sooner rather than later, but Jesse I think only needs the original episode. I think that anything we do with compost call is gravy and is our stuff. So that means it's not as urgent as, Jesse's launch event is the 15th or his soft launch or whatever, Pete, yeah. I mean, Monday's fine if you're good with just a few people showing up, but there might be other people that you would rather, that you wanna leave space for. We could do a week from now. We could do next Wednesday or Thursday. Right, if you use this time, in fact. Jerry, if I were you, I would do a three minute pitch tomorrow on Weaving the World and Composting and the first episode. On the Thursday call. Yeah. I like that. And if you have your time ready, then whoever comes comes. Yeah, even better. Yeah, so tomorrow you wanna announce the time. Yeah, sounds great. Okay. That'll save you so much time. So Stacy, the top priority is picking a time for the compost call. Got it. Cool, thank you. Awesome, I have to go troubleshoot a QR code. Yes. But this has been super productive and I've learned a lot about how Amazon Web Services works and all of that. And I think our conversation about... I had my Lord of the Rings hit for the day, thank you. You're very welcome. Glad to provide a little soren in your life. Yes, we did. Every day. Exactly, exactly. Gotta know which pit of hell the skirt can then call into. What are we really doing here? That's what we're doing. That's why we're here. That's why we're here. That's why this is the Fellowship of the Ring. Exactly. Exactly. But who's... What's his name? Dweezel? No, who's... My precious, what's the character's name? Gollum. Gollum. I'm like, it's not Dweezel. Gollum, thank you. Who's Gollum? That's a new one. Yeah, Dweezel I think is a character. Dweezel is Frank Zappa's son's name. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah, because he just mentioned Frank Zappa and I'm like, how did Dweezel work its way into my head? Yeah, maybe that's how. That's how. Stacy? Just real quick, I wanna make sure I have everything on the list. I have intro, outro, contacting, Alex, and the time for the compost fall, the pitch for tomorrow. Anything else? That's it? There's an end screen. I need to do some editing of the intro. I need to edit together the intro, outro video and post them and send that to Jesse and say, here you go, use this. And Jerry, the first production of that video, does that go up on the Weaving the World website? Yes. So I think that's another thing, Stacy, posting. That becomes our first. I was writing. Is that the last thing? Posting episode to the website. Which means building a webpage for the episode and starting to do that. But minimally, webpage on website for the episode and the episode video posted there. That's like. And I have a question about that. How long does something like that take? Four days and about 500 people. No, really. About half an hour. About half. Is that something that you can do on share screen if I was watching or no? Yes. I would love, if Jerry, if that's okay with you, I would love that. And whenever you want to do it, let me know. So when I'm working on this, I will ping you and we can co-screen, we can co-work on it if you want, that easy, easy to do. And I now have apparently a much faster machine that doesn't like screen sharing my brain, but I gotta fix that. So I think that's a screen share permissions thing. I think you're right, Pete. So I'll reboot and then I'll look at that, see if that works. Thank you. Thank you all. Cheers, good luck. Appreciate it. Yeah, thanks. Bye.