 Welcome everyone it's August 8, 2022. This is Jenkins governance meeting. And thanks for being here topics I've got on the agenda include news action items. Blue Ocean Admonition CDF interactions we'd have that in the past session, our CDF topics, let's call it that. And forums and community topics anything else that needs to be added to the agenda. Maybe the website. Oh, yes, that's a good question. Okay, Jenkins.io website. All right, good. Anything else. Maybe it makes sense to discuss a GSOB but on the other hand it's a tour. Google Summer of Code. And so we include the topic Oleg and then you can decide as we get there if what level you want to discuss it at any other topics. No. Okay. All right so let's let's go up to the top then and take on the news first. The next long term support release will release two days from now Wednesday the 10th of August. Thanks to Alex Brandis as the release lead. Not seeing any negative feedback or any comments on the release candidate. In addition we've got the next baseline selected 2.361.1 will be released September the 7th. It will require Java 11 or Java 17. No more Java eight support. Thanks to Chris Stern as the release lead Chris is a Google Summer of Code mentor who is being being actively involved in other areas this is his first opportunity as a release lead for a Jenkins release. The next item was we had Southern California Linux expo I gathered 40 plus email addresses of people that want may want to help Jenkins. I'm going to try and experiment there by sending them a personal email, inviting them to help and see if they'll interact. I don't know what the results will be. We'll see. And then last time Basel Basel you had noted progress on the Jakarta mail migration anything additional you want to highlight there. Oh, I see your mic son muted but we're not here I'm not hearing anything Basel. Okay I see a shake of head no so we'll leave it as is for now and if there's a topic you can messages in the chat. Great, thank you. All right, then open action items. We've got one that I actually completed. The blog post for she code Africa is done now. The others I haven't completed. And it's going to be several weeks still before I get to them. Gavin we did have one for you on create a funding proposal for the blue ocean admonition but I think we're settled with that already are you okay that I just listed that one is done. Well I thought I didn't know we were going ahead with that. Okay, so, right. So you had, I just put a note in the last meeting. Yeah, I didn't have to watch the video. Okay, no, no problem. Are you okay with motion admonition that we currently have. Sorry, what did you say. I just wanted to say this purpose on the main please because I haven't seen it. I haven't done anything yet it was an email to mark saying, I'm thinking about doing this, and then all of a sudden lots of things happened and I'm like, cool. I think the existing improvements to the Jenkins I owe pages are definitely a step in our direction. You know if I had my way, I'd rip the entire thing out I don't I want it gone, but I think what is there is probably better or closer to good enough for now. But I do think, based on the fact that we have money, and we never spend, and it is a, it's never going to be handled by volunteers because it's so big. It is something that we should look into, but I don't have the energy to push that proposal right now. Okay, so then I'm gathering that we don't really need to carry forward an action item on that one. Let's, we'll look at the blue ocean admonitions some examples. If I want to yeah if I actually wanted to actually hire someone and things like that I would have put up a bigger post and just a side comment. So I do think it's worthwhile doing but not now not. Yeah. Okay. While we're covering things I might have missed was there wasn't there action item for Agolia as well. They're not in this meeting notes but we can certainly put it there. It is on the forums it's fine. Yeah, so, so Mark or Gavin update the Algolia search configuration. I went to search for the government notes so that wouldn't have to be just you typing anything out, and I realize that the search doesn't return any of the government or nothing, nothing useful for governance. Okay. So, yeah, and again it's a hint. We've got improvements to be made there let me put it into the chat. I'll put the no, I got it. I'm good. Oh you do. Okay. All right. It's in my, it's in my bookmarks. I was a lazy. I got it. Okay. So we do have and we do need to take an action it's tracked as a as a help desk ticket right now. To remind us that we need to make that, but I think Gavin you and I may be the only two people with permissions to do those changes on the Algolia search definition, because we're using their doc search facility. Well, I'll follow up I'll try to make it to one of the docs office hours and follow up. Great. Thank you. Anything else on action items. I want to see less mark in this list, not so much that marks not getting done but I don't like the fact marks doing everything. Fair enough. Yep. This is a blue ocean admonition and I'm not sure if I missed this but is there, is there canonical example of the current state of blue ocean support that I could refer to if people ask. There is actually we've tried to capture it in this admonition here. And here's what it says. It says blue ocean will not receive further functional update functionality updates blue ocean will continue to provide easy to use pipeline visualization but will not be enhanced further. It will only receive selective updates for significant security security issues or functional defects and then we give some alternatives and some recommendations in the admonition and then subsections of this admonition are used in other places in the documentation to refer to blue ocean. It would be nice to have an anchor here because it would be super helpful and maybe also add into the plugin documentation. That was my next point is, I don't think that it was intentional to emit this from the plugin docs but if, if, if, if no one is against adding it there as well, I would like to take the action item to put this admonition on the plugin site as the same text as you just showed me. I like that if you if you're willing to take that action that'd be great I think that makes a lot of sense. It's, it's good to have it in the Jenkins that IO documentation even better to put it on the plugins page. Yeah. Yeah, bonus points for beating docker hub because there is Jenkins CI organization lotion image, which is still being pulled sometimes and it's weighted. So it would be nice to push the new documentation that even if you change it manually. Yeah, just for a bit of context will market typing. There was a couple of threads about people having trouble with ocean especially after the last update, and I reached out to mark and say hey do you think it's worth me writing up a proposal, which then triggered all these discussions but really just I was frustrated that the answer to most of the time when people are like, I'm having trouble blue ocean is don't use blue ocean. They're not being maintained they're like, well, why didn't you tell me this earlier and I'm like, I don't know. So, yeah, I think any improvements on that regard is good but I also think the long term goal is to stop recommending it to people which is going to be the hard part. Yeah, and that Gavin, that's a place where I think you and I disagree I'm not ready to, to not recommend it to people because we don't have an alternative yet the pipeline graph visualization is is just too weak for the visualization piece. The other tools are good enough for the creation part and the diagnosis part but visualization is still just not good enough. And I'm not comfortable recommending something that's not maintained. I understand right and that that's whether or not there's new functionality or not it's that flat line if it's not maintained I should I know we should suggest people using it. So anyways, but that's another discussion for another day. The point was that this will help a lot in those, the support requests when people come in say hey this in the working we're like, yeah unfortunately you're in a weird place. These are your suggested alternatives and we can leave it at that for now. Agreed. Yeah so so the, we had long ago on this on the docker hub entry we had long ago shifted the Jenkins documentation to not refer to this blue ocean image. But that doesn't mean people don't still have references to that image they do. And so needs a link to the official docs and the include the embed the admonition, because the official docs no longer. They used to use this custom image they no longer do that these the standard Jenkins image now anything else on the blue ocean admonition. Okay. Next then was CDF topics. So, Gavin and I were, I think it was Gavin and I were involved in a conversation, oh no, Tim Giacomo and I were involved in a conversation with Fati about a possible blog post highlighting the contents of the next LTS baseline. So I took the action item that the docs will provide a highlights blog post for CDF. I think that makes sense to let CDF help us promote things. I think it would make sense at the same time. Remember that there is a bunch of other activities happening right now. So my assumption would be that end of August and beginning of September would be quite busy for a son. So I'm not sure whether you will get published on short notice. So earlier the matter. So then Oleg you had added the CDF technical oversight committee and technical oversight committee chair elections. Yeah, something where you wanted to highlight there. Yes, so just quick update. We officially extended terms of project representatives to two years. So we reached out to other projects not represented on the TOC nobody was against. So it means that I will stay here. Jenkins representative there for the next year, unless there is a desire to change this representative. Another thing that you also had to see chair elections. So I will also remain and to see chair for the next year. So it's just for your information, what it means that I will be representing Jenkins, etc. on the CDF governing board where we talk about topics like infrastructure budgets. And a reminder to your market that the club is representative doesn't participate. So right now it's me kind of channeling the club this as well but I'm not employed by the company. Thanks, thanks for the reminder I've got it on my board to do and I'll certainly talk with him to see if we want to make a switch. I mean, is there any objection if are there any bylaws things that I need to be worried about if I were to propose that I take that position instead of instead of. This room for your company. Okay, great. So it's it's a, it's anyone from cloud bees and that's a choice that cloud bees can make. Yeah. Great. All right. Thanks. So the governing board. There is not that much happening right now. There is a bunch of discussions. There will be also mini summit in September. With assumption that some people will come there but I won't. Sorry, which summit in September. The summit on September 12. It's in Dublin. Okay. What he has sent out the call for papers for that. I'm not sure whether they picked up with the social media. But yeah, most. It's still open, I believe. And just second, I'm looking for this or the deadline, but I'm pretty sure it's still open. Only Steven or Tom finally would like to speak about Jenkins because it's not that far for them. Yeah, I'll have to, I'll, I'll, I'll do some poking and see. And just checking what's going right now. August 10 is a deadline. So what else you have. So, yeah, one thing to keep in mind that project was accepted to the convenience delivery foundation. And it was official since the last week project is distributed package delivery network with major contributors Jay frog deploy hub canonical several other companies. So, there is no director lab engine with Jenkins, but it's still important part of the ecosystem. By the way. Yeah, so the idea is quite simple. They want to generalize basically the protocols, etc, to build the kind of CDM for artifacts. And I believe that Jay frog etc have clear interest in having enterprise implementations for that same for Docker. Okay. So, one thing so above the rejection item for your mark about migrating to better. So, good news that you can pause at the section item for now. Because now there are second thoughts about adopting baby in the continuous delivery foundation. So the reason is that currently it's a low tier. Which basically prevents many very functionality from being available. And it makes basically no sense to adopt the baby in the current state. Okay, so we can be sure you're okay it is okay then if we pause that. Well, we will kindly asked to post in other activities because right now the continuously the foundation is not sure it will become a bit of a baby contract. Great. Good to know. Thank you. Because if we switched enterprise tariff of baby, it will be more expensive than zoom and meetup.com combined. Excellent. Thank you. Okay. Okay, so like this. This is all from the CDF. Thank you. So you had added another one Oleg on the status of easy CLA I think it's an open question of me. Oh that was Gavin. Okay so Gavin help help me out with that one. I don't know the answer to this that's why I wanted to put on an agenda. So now it's, you have to do the right answer just approving any pull request. So do we validate documentation but they have never submitted a pull request. Okay. So that was that since we have everything enabled for easy silly just a topic documentation. We think that we are still waiting for cloud bees and others to submit the easy silly hello mark. So I didn't hurry with that and basically it was long. So it wasn't my big burner. But if you are fine I can proceed with it. Well we had two new CLA is coming this week which I mean it happens like once or twice a year. And as far as someone told me the thing is just approve them but I can't validate them. So I just want to make sure the process is documented that I'm just going to prove them when they look fine to me, but I don't know. Okay. So, yeah, I think that you can just approve for now, because for me, just a fact of commit is enough to be honest. Okay. But yeah, understand that legally speaking it's not something you would like whatever. It just makes me feel uncomfortable to approve and merge a PDF that I can't read. I think from my account doesn't request to review from me, by the way, because I don't see if it's on my dashboard I have missed it but most likely it's not on my dashboard. You can go close mark. I'm originally. Okay, good. All right, so. Here it was closed. Am I for Yaroslav, for instance, yeah. I'm getting people to also sign the easy CLA, just so that when we move over it's done but yeah essentially there was a encrypted PDF there. Which I'm like, yeah, you committed. I'm going to assume it's right and submit and merge. I have a key for that. I'm not sure whether it was transferred to Damian. Yeah, I don't know either that's why I put on the agenda is just because it's such a fuzzy process right now and I don't know what we should be doing. I don't mind doing the proof. I just don't know what we should be doing right. Yeah, I think we just. So if everyone is fun. I will try to find some time and to get it over the line with documentation. What do we do? I am fine with that. Yeah, I'm a happier easy CLA comes in I have to do no work. Thank you. But if they can't come in I just want to make sure that we are clear and what these stuffs are, if we do have to do work, just like that being announced to just make sure we're clear in the state. Anything else on easy CLA sort of for. Yeah, no problem. So Jenkins.io website Gavin. Is this about the UI of the look and feel change or something different. Yeah, just because there's a bit of debate and I figure it's going to get really heated really quickly. There's a correct me when I'm wrong here but there was a new PR a couple weeks ago. It was merged last week that adds some new the sky skinning to the website so it's you know, the bit more white space a bit more clear clarity, a new background that kind of thing. The new the front page does look really nice. That being said, there are a number of bugs reported for various other parts of the site that don't work right. So Daniel has specifically requested that it gets rolled back until the things are fixed, because the fact is that we're only fixing things like once a week one small thing once a week. And it kind of makes a mess. And normally I would say government, the government governance doesn't need to get involved in these kind of things. And since it's like a number, it affects a number of sites and a number of pages, and it's not being repaired in a pretty rapid way. To me it has a lot of the concerns about it being going stale and not being fixed and we're in a broken state and considering our spent the last like three years trying to clean up all these failed unfinished projects. I'm actually slightly thinking we should go with Daniel's thing and say revert until it can be fixed properly. So I don't know, I just something I thought it would be worth bringing up in the governance. And, and so you highlighted it very nicely. The one of my initial response was oh no I don't want to revert. Before I looked at it and after discussing it in Docs office hours Asia last week, I came back to the oh no maybe we should river just because it's, it's, it's a bigger change than we may have been ready to take on. And if it was clean now, if all the issues were fixed in a day or two, I would have been like yeah let's just roll forward, but it's now been a week. And we're getting like one fix in one week to fix one issue. It, like I said, it makes me concerned that it's going to be like six months from now, and we're not going to finish this upgrade, and I don't think it's an upgrade until it's finished. Right. So, well and rolling back does not stop us from using the work of the original contributor. Yeah, to try to do incremental steps of things that we can do stepwise small step seed does this have the desired result. Yeah. So I'm not like I said I'm not really sure it's a governance thing but it is. I can feel it getting heated and I think it would be worth discussing. Great. So, so, can I ask for input from others Kevin I know is as a docs contributor you've, you've had some thoughts and we talked in docs office hours Europe. Basel Oleg anything you'd like to offer insights on. For me I think it's just hearing Gavin's point of view and seeing like the issues that have come up and stuff. Having some time to reflect I definitely see the value in reverting it and kind of small steps that become more effective over time as opposed to the size of this change that wasn't really I wasn't aware of it at least since I didn't have any visibility into it but yeah. I can see I can see the value in reverting instead of like really pushing this one. Okay, others. I have a favor for birding as well. Okay, so then I'm going to, and I, I think in this case to Gavin's doesn't need to go to governance. I'm going to kick in my, I'm the docs officer and therefore I think I get to arbitrate this one I'm going to say yes we're going to revert and try to bring it forward as a series of small changes later. Yeah. Great. Thanks. Okay. Any objections or, or feeling that this is that I'm out of line trade taking that approach. Okay, good. Thanks everybody. Next topic then Google summer of code. Why me. Well, or whoever is it all like you would put it on the topic the question was, was there something specific or, or that you would like. I don't think that they put it. And then I will happily take it off because I think it's premature right now. We're in progress. And all four projects are, are making progress. And we had the midterm presentation it was workable etc evaluations have been submitted for the midterm so I'll just call that one as a done topic for today unless there's other things that you'd like to know. Next topic then Gavin. Oh, fat fingers. Here we go forum and community topics. I'm needed. I'm going to go dig because I forgot to pull up them. There's three topics though that I didn't add so we can talk about those for now. If while you're digging I'll talk to those and, and I can take the, the, the Java 11 transition issues for core there was a user on windows on community Jenkins.io that had a firewall configured to only allow Java eight through the firewall. Windows firewall is apparently sophisticated enough to allow you to lock firewall transition for specific applications. And because the application was configured to only allow Java eight through the firewall when they switch to Java 11 their controller couldn't connect to their agents anymore. And it's like, that was a very novel, novel condition that I'd never, never considered, like, wow, but once that was resolved they seem to get it settled and work through it just took quite a bit of back and forth to understand it. Then there were that the one I think also they that user also switched to 32 bit version of Java 11. So it may be the binary path that changed that may have been also why the firewall had issues. It could be yes and that I'm not sure of it so they, there were, they had they did have a 32 bit. They mentioned a 32 bit Java 11 agent. And I wasn't sure if that was a required or a, there's an update to that thread about an hour ago when they said they switched to the thing that worked. Ah, good. Okay, great. So, for me it was a, it was a good story to see. Hey, there are some subtleties in this Java 11 transition that are not actually Java 11, but they're just any transition, had they gone to Java 17 they'd have had the same same challenge had they all sorts of potential issues there. We had two, two surprises in the plug in world. We released a host key verification fix, and it relied on open SSH version 7.6 and newer, unfortunately, Cento seven and AWS Linux to both deliver Cento, both deliver open SSH 7.4, which is too old for what the option did. So we switched the some configuration, shipped a new version of the plug in and think we've got it resolved. And then the tri lead API plug in inadvertently shipped Java 11 class files without declaring a dependency on a Jenkins version that mandated Java 11. It's not blocked from the update center, but there's still some some noise. And if you look at the at the issue that's linked here you'll see the kind of noise that's happening just by counting the number of duplicates that gives us the first hint that yeah this one generated a lot of Oh wow. Ouch. There are sites that we still got many users run Java 8, we need to keep banging on the drum to remind people that they should upgrade to Java 11. The new LCS release I guess it's a matter. Well, and what we have a new security release people will be forced to update. They truly will have no choice right there's you've got to upgrade to Java 11 in order to run Jenkins 2.361.1. So, Gavin captured one this is a Gavin do you want to describe it. Yeah, sure there's a. Actually I don't remember a lot about it, but there was I think this was a licensing one. Yeah. So, Danga back flight a plugin that was using the wrong non open source license according to our agreements we don't host plugins that don't have open source license I think this is the case of a plugin using a library that doesn't have it not the plugin itself. So he submitted a PR to suspend it. We hadn't heard anything back in a week. Two weeks, two weeks now I think so we suspended it last week. Great. I think it's a fairly new plugin to so I don't think it's going to affect all the users. There's also my ongoing attempt to get a vendors portal running. So I'm just focused from the last time just poking around trying out a few things that kind of thing. There's a couple of old threads that are being brought back to life but didn't really go anywhere so there is a thread on the forums about complete Jenkins tutorial. I moved it to the showing off category so people can find it easier. There was a thread about. Follow it up on it but how plugins are verified that they're not security holes, which I think is something that we could potentially document better, mostly, it's at your own risk, but it might be better to have an official page. And then there is a discussion about communication channels. I'm focusing on that side I'm focusing on the actual like live chat channels. So I've been trying to see if I can get one channel that has IRC getter and matrix all in the same room. So more of a like a test. That way we can kind of merge a bunch of the live chat channels and then we can start working on figuring out what we want to do for the non live chat once. It's going to be a bit heated over discussion from what's been done so far. Right. And, and certainly they're, they're strong opinions held on and all sides of it right. Other than that, I don't see anything and I don't remember anything in the forums. Oh, I guess the only other thing, more of an action item. Well, there's plugin development type questions on the forums. Is there interest in me making it or trying to see if it can auto email the mail list, or should I just email the mail list and say hey we probably need more hands here. So you're thinking of automatically emailing the Jenkins developer list. Yeah, so right now when you post something to like the sick docs tag in on discourse, it puts it in the sick docs get a room. I'm just wondering if we want to do the same thing for any code related things. I kind of don't go ahead, excuse me. I kind of worried about being automatic because I think people will start asking tech questions to the devilist that way. But so far it's been pretty good. People have been using the code. Category without it actually being contributing related but yeah I'm, I'm hesitant specifically because of the volume of developer list spam that I end up having to reject because it's not developer topics. And I don't see that I didn't know how bad it was. Yeah, and it's, it's not huge it's maybe one or two a week, but, but I would really like to not have spam arriving on the Jenkins developer list it's, it's been reasonably well defended by those of us who are moderators on it and. And so for me I'd rather not at least for now. Yeah, sounds good. But I'll just do it manually. She turns it comes up. Right. Great. Any other topics that we need to discuss this. A manual approach is a good place to start because if that works out well we could then make that automatic, but no reason to rush. I was beginning that sentence. Oh, I think the manual approach is a good place to start. And we could definitely, I mean if it's working out well, doing it manually then I think the next step would be definitely to automate it. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's about one a month. So two months. So it hasn't been an issue so far. Good. Very good. Press wise I'm wondering if we want to make the press. Oh, I get a lot of spam on the press email, which is, which is fine it's kind of the only only real email on the Jenkins site, which is fine. It's ongoing of I think there's a lot of the press contacts are not really engaged with the project anymore. So it's like KK and our Tyler, and someone else. And I'm wondering if we just want to redirect all those press inquiries to the board and leave it like that. The only real non spam because mostly it's just like do we want to spam of a posting blog articles for money or getting money or being paid money something like that. The only one only one recently that came to the press that was useful was postman which was really more of an advocacy partnership one which to me makes more sense to the board discussion as opposed to me as individual, or maybe we can have advocacy take over press email we just have a group or something. I don't know. This is one of those things that I tried to see if we can get that directly imported into the forms but I had trouble because we don't have incoming email support for Jenkins that I owe domains. So, I don't know just, I mean it's not something we need action. I just want to make sure that bring it up. Yeah, so, so I'm hesitant to put it on advocacy right now just because there's there. Okay, there are more of us on advocacy than press contacts. Me, Alyssa Bruno are typically attending advocacy sessions. Yeah. But are you okay with the status quo are you okay with things as they are for right now just holding the long and understand that I'm deleting most of the ones that come in and say hey do you want to have a blog post which means I might miss the legit one. But yeah, then I don't care. Okay. I mean they're pretty obvious. Yeah, and I do something similar with the spam that arrives to the board. Usually those are commercial commercial engagement attempts trying to ask us to buy something in usually an Asian language oddly enough and I don't even bother to translate them I just delete them. All right. Any, any other topics we need to discuss today. I'm going to get you the link for that gen 11 one, but otherwise are good. All right, thanks everybody let's call an end of the session I'll post a recording a link to the recording and put the recording available on discourse within the next 24 hours. Bye.