 To je spirit, sprit, meni, kongolečnosti. Vse je od 8000, ne znam, kako je meni, stafano Zahjoli. Čekaj. Čekaj, meni, topečno, nekaj v debijenu, da je odličnja taj, bof, in prijev. to so zelo kar, ki se počutijo. Zaj je to dobro. So zelo je prišljeli kvalifikacje, kajsih a priste si je v teret dialo. In so meneo, da黑a vse. A ti se zelo pospečite o našelje, neka viša iz njega od v štih, nekaj je vse, nekaj je zašločaj, kaj si so poštila. Vse vse je vse podandil z nijegovosti z Vzločev, kaj neезdavno je tapo in povrati. Tako. Patej, da se nekaj prišlično zbijaj gobi 05, gobi infinite, ki se všim je napravil, in početil vse c11-money dokument. Vse je včešlje, ki so všim ni vse vse izgledaj. Patej, da nekaj smo prišlično vse v sessonu. Početaj, da ne znam, da si vse ne znam, da se prišlično zbijamo, da se izgledaj, kako je zbijamo. Zato. Znam z prind. Zato, kaj je prind? Se vsega je tudi, da mi je vzeli, ki je izgledati o zelo, v zelo zakaz, ki je površena, in spotne vizivila v tem, na kratku, ko jih vsega površena reče, da ga se načo oddajte kaj je zelo, in ki se tega zelo, in je bilo vzeli. Tudi je to vzela, ker je zelo, ker tega začala in še dobro tako površena, in je tudi vsega, da je dobro, tako neče, in moj profil in dojda in so vziv sa poničenem. In izgledajte, da je ima pravi fonamentalne vsoče veli handy vsoče, da vedem, ki sem tukaj. Svinz in debjan je velika traditivna. V Evrstu nici cubec in v 2005, na pova, da antar. To je nischi tukaj, od kako they zdrav zamo in, na debičnjih vrštih gradov. To je z dvega korezina, v korezina, pri korezina, na večo vrštih z vse delati. To je z nimi nekaj vrštih. V 2006, za 3 dvega, vrednjih nekaj vsega vrednjih dejbianja, kaj nam ne zbilo debičnji, narednjih je invento, that institution can contribute to Debian by simply organizing sprint, organizing meetings where people meet and stay together and act on whatever they want as long as it is Debian related. And I think this has been a great idea, a wonderful way to contribute to Debian, and I think it has also taught us how beneficial those kind of activities can be for us. They've been doing that for three years and then in 2008 they sort of stopped organizing that. The sprint program is something I've done in October 2010. It's by no means something which has invented the notion of sprint in Debian. Sprint has always existed in Debian, but it was just an attempt to streamline a bit the procedure to have a sprint, make it clear what you should do if you want to have a sprint, and as a side effect of that encouraging having more sprint in Debian, and also a way of learning from other free software projects how they are doing things and try to improve what we are doing by looking at what others are doing. In particular I've been in touch with the GNOMI people and with the KDE people to actually share some best practices on sprint organization. So all the material related to sprints is on the wiki at wiki.debian.org.sprints. There is a list of sprints you've been doing because I think it's important to show to people which donate their money to Debian how we use the money. And you also find pointers to a couple of documents. The first one is the sprint out tool, which is pretty straightforward, but is made in a way that you first organize something, you need to find an organizer, you decide a place, you decide a date, you decide who are the participants on the basis of the logistics choice you have made, you decide an agenda, which is very important, and you prepare a tentative budget. At that point you still don't know if your sprint is going to happen or not, and when you have a tentative budget you go to the DPL, you say, OK, this is our agenda, this is what we want to do when or is planning to come, and this is how much it will cost to Debian. So I stress the point that this Debian cost because some sprints might have a sponsor, so you need DPL authorization essentially only if you want to use Debian money, and at that point either you get approval or you get a refusal. I think I've approved every single sprint that people have asked me, so the chances that yours will be approved are pretty high. And at that point, well, you add a wiki page under wiki Debian auger sprints using the nice template, which is there, you announce the sprint, this is very important, I think it's fundamental when we use money that we are transparent and that when we do work in a sprint, we do all we can not to cut off people who could not attend the sprint. So announcing that there is a sprint and maybe explaining how people could participate remotely is a fundamental step in having a sprint. You have the sprint, you have fun, at the end you prepare a report, you send a minute somewhere, ideally it's the most appropriate mailing list for your needs, might be project for something general, might be your team list for something specific to a team, and at that one, once all this is done, you ask for reimbursement. This point is put at the last on purpose, because ideally it was a way to first you be your public, first you announce everything, you send the minutes and then you ask for the reimbursement. So this is how you do that and probably the most important message of this buff is you can have a sprint too. So it's not only for core teams, it's for every group of people in Debian, which is willing to work together for a couple of days or a week or whatever, is willing to be transparent about that and try to work with people who cannot attend, and really is for every kind of possible team or group of people that we might have in Debian. This is a brief report that I have also blocked a few days ago about the sprint we have had since April 2010. I go back only to that, but essentially it's the moment in which people started asking me if they can have a sprint or not, so I didn't manage to go through, I didn't have the time to go through the archive and look past that. But still you can see from this that in 16 months we have had 15 sprints, all of them in Europe, about half of them in Germany, that's surely because we have a very active community and also because we have some facilities in German which are really friendly to us, like the Linux Hotel, I think, which is very friendly and a welcome place for sprints. The number of participants varied a lot, so we have had sprints with 25 people, but kind of weird because those sprints are those where we have also had external sponsors, so most of those people are not necessarily people coming on behalf of Debian, but maybe by other entities interested in Debian. We have had sprints which cost us nothing because external sponsors came in and decided that they were willing to sponsor sprints, and all of this has costed something like 10,000 euro, so I have normalized the cost in Europe where they were not in Europe, like for instance Pound in UK, but this is the cost, so essentially a bit more than one here of sprints costed to Debian 10,000 euro, so this is the cost which is, I think, pretty low compared with the result that those sprints has produced, and if you look at my blog Post on the Matter, you will find that every one of these sprints is linked to a report in which you can say, you can see the agenda, the announcement and the minutes, so you can track what I've been doing in the value sprints and compare that to the price. So this is for the sprints, and sprints is just one of the ways we use money for. So there are other important information about money that I feel we are not always aware of, so just to stress a point which has already been made in the previous talk, Debian by itself does not have any money because Debian for the legal world sort of doesn't exist, so it is not a legal entity which can hold money, so all the money that Debian has are actually money which are hosted on the alpha of Debian by the trusted organization, what we call trusted organizations, so this is explicitly mentioned in the constitution. All trusted organizations are equal, so we use to have a special casing for SPI and then we generalize that with our vote some years ago. Even though we use some trusted organization more than others, in particularly most of the money we use and we deal with are in SPI in the US and in FFIS in Germany. Money come in via donations and donation goes to those trusted organizations and are used, the decision of how to use the money is the decision done by the DPL in consultation with the developers, so I have no problem admitting that I have not been particularly good in doing this in consultation with the developers, it seems to me that we have a tradition that the DPL decides which is can be a fine interpretation of the constitution as long as we have good method for reporting to developers how we use money. And this is exactly why I'm very much interested in the work that the auditors can do because I really think we need to be more transparent in how we use the money and also on how the DPL decides how to use the money. So how much do we have? At present we have $55,000 U.S. dollar air market for Debian at SPI. This includes also the Debconf air market at SPI because during Debconf we decide to have a separate air market to make dealing with money easier but they are all the same money so Debconf money is also Debian money and we have 76,000 euro at FFIS. If you do the conversion today that's something like 100,000 euro. Unfortunately, it's not necessarily the spending power we have because as you might have heard in previous talk of this money we can have money which has already been pledged for specific purposes but not yet paid. So there is some degree of uncertainty and that is something we should work on to improve and this is again something we are going to work on with the auditors. But the ballpark numbers are like this. So what do we use money for? So even though a very important line in the Debian yearly budget is Debconf, that's not actually something we use money for. Better, we use money for Debconf but over the years is a sort of amortized euro cost. This is a goal we have set this year in discussion with among the Debconf team and myself but it's also something which has actually happened over the past 3-4 Debconfs. So if you look at the budget of Debconf you have some here in which Debconf is particularly expensive so we spend more money than what the sponsor give us but in other years they are particularly cheap so we get more money from the sponsor than what we actually spend. So if you take this it balances out very well and we have set out as a goal that of having Debconf completely amortized zero cost event over the years. So this is not one of the things we use money for at least ideally. We have money for travel sponsoring Sprint is a big line on that front but we also sponsor developers going to specific events when they go there as a representative of Debian. So that does not mean that you can come to Debian and ask for the first them tickets or for whatever event you regularly attend. This is when people invite us to be present at some event and when they are not willing to pay the trip themselves it is important for Debian to be there. So it has happened to me to authorize travel reimbursement for this kind of cases. And also we have some special purpose Debconf related sponsoring for instance you might have heard of the Debconf newbies initiative this is something we do on outside of the Debconf budget but still I believe there is quite some value into it. This is probably the biggest line in our budget probably again because we are trying to have a report with the auditors but we don't have them yet. The second big line is DSA hardware so we need to buy machine we need to replace machines sometimes we are able to get donated material sometimes we are not so we go out and buy material and also we have some hardware related services I've mentioned only warranties here but there might be more services to maintain the hardware current. Then we also use money to actually buy hardware for these. This is something I've been trying to advertise a bit it's not happening very often actually it has never happened in the last one year and a half at least but it's something we could do so if you want to account some specific hardware doing porting for instance you can and you cannot afford yourself the hardware you can come to me and say okay need to buy this hardware for this reason and what I usually reply is okay first we see if we can get it donated to you by the other vendor then we can check out why not we can actually buy the hardware and then there are probably other stuff which I forgot and which will come up in the discussion last two information there are a couple of sort of documents I'm trying to write and maintain one is sponsoring guidelines which is what I expect from you if you are going to ask for money and the principle is simple be transparent so if you are going to an event that you are going there and to report back before you ask for reimbursement once more the idea is being transparent so you are going there on money which has been donated to Debian so it's normal to expect it to be transparent I mean you have been a Debian representative so once more the project expects you to be transparent on what you have done and the second document asking for money is essentially the kind of things you can ask money for so what I've told in the previous slide if you don't remember the URL go to the Wiki go to the Teams list and there is a sort of fake team which is the DPL team made by myself and you can find it there so that's about it for the info I wanted to share and what I would like to discuss with you and in particular what I need your input on is the topics you can find here so what should we use Debian money for what else should we use Debian money for which minimum amount of Debian money should we keep around for instance if one day half of the hardware we have breaks down in the same minute we need some money to actually pay back that hardware so what is the safeguard you think we should keep in the specific case of sprints what can we do to have more sprints I think we should have more sprints so the KD project has a budget of which is like 10 or 20 times our budget for sprints and there are big software development project but I think the project the size of Debian could use having more sprints and in turn having more sprints might encourage more donation and actually as Martin would say increase the cash flow of Debian which is good if we know how to use the money properly and similarly what can we do to attract more donations let's assume that next year we have 10 times the sprint we have had this year we will need some money to prepare and correct to do for Debian to actually attract more donations so that's it from my side and I welcome your input Martin here please note down on gobby what people are gonna say it's really needed and helpful and stand up okay I just have a very quick question which might be easy to answer sprints and Debian there's not that much of a difference why are we keeping them separate still that's a good question not that easy to answer so one reason I can imagine is that we have a tradition of gathering sponsor for Debian which I think is something which is fairly easy to do while gathering sponsor for individual sprints is not that easy I think but yes I mean there are one of the small side, one of the big size of essentially the same thing so I agree with you I think in the past we have not looked at sprints as some sort of first class citizen so something that used to happen but not really streamlined or organized in any way but yes why not probably also we don't need a big team to organize sprints I've been doing that myself I'm looking for someone to take over the organizational sprints but we don't need a big team for sprints for instance I'm basically just wondering because after every DEBCON we either have a deficit or we have more money left over and as far as I understand that has always been that stayed in Brazil for a long time and then it stayed in Edinburgh for a long time and it was always difficult and we didn't consolidate it back into Debian and we didn't in cases where people weren't able to get sponsorship but we just simply didn't have enough money just get money from Debian and I think we might want to because this is just the biggest sprint that we have Do you want to take on this one more? Well, I think that's to some extent a fixed issue as of the last year of those discussions So the issue is sort of fixed saying that with the general goal that DEBCON is a zero cost event over time we fork off a DEBCON budget at the first time we need to and we merge the budget into proper DEBCON budget at the end but regarding the fact that we keep money in different places we actually benefit from them with sprints for instance, if we have sprints in the UK we ask Debian UK to do their embrosement that's fine And as far as I understood the Debian auditors are keeping track of the money anyway we are still keeping the money together as Debian project Correct So what more can we do to actually use our money to benefit the Debian project or any other input you might have of course take nothing some investment on stock options maybe Martin I do have a general question in terms of how is that money currently invested in just liquidity? I hope so so I trust the from SPI I see the reports I hope it's just checkings and not stock options I'm asking because we are seeing inflation on the rise you want to do something about it You're right I think we are not spending money on stock options and so on it's money held in trust and as I said we would violate against US policies as far as I understood Yeah, that's right as I certainly understand from SPI's point of view they do have a couple of accounts one's a standard a check-in account and one's a savings account so there is an attempt to maximize the investments while still keeping that there's been an issue in that traditionally Debian receives a lot of in kind donations as well so traditionally if you just received some money you'd have to spend a lot more on hardware you'd have to spend more on hosting and we get quite a bit of that one of the things that's been mentioned in the past is getting legal advice on contentious things things like the patents or things like what we can do with things like legal or not fortunately we do have SFLC who's a sponsoring organization of us so we can get quite a bit like that while I'm stood up I'll just mention the second point which is as well as the minimum amount of Debian money we should keep I'd also considered the maximum amount of Debian money we should keep and while I was on the board of SPI this is for two reasons firstly if you've got a lot of money for SPI it is a non profit organization and it's not meant to make a profit and if the amount of money it keeps getting keeps going up there's a problem there the second one is that people who donate to Debian expect it to be used for Debian not to sit in a bank account so it can be very useful to spend it traditionally there's always been the question of what if we get sued and I agree with BDL here if it happens that we get sued Debian has never asked the public for money in a big way before so if this unfortunate situation does happen I'm fairly confident we could raise a lot of money very quickly to do that so I'd certainly be interested in looking at spending of the money we already have so I completely agree with that so I'm not in particular afraid of not having enough money the day we will need them regarding the you made a point sort of our responsibility for the organization like SPI so I've been discussing this point with BDL and also with SFLC which happens to be the legal consultant of both SPI and in some way also the director of Debian and they both make a good point that SPI make these sort of risk assessments in the moment they accept a project so I think SPI as accepting Debian as a project as some sort of assessment of our risk it is to have Debian as a project and I don't think we should hold back in taking decision ourselves unless they tell to us no please stop this is dangerous for us so either you stop or you go away so I don't think we should be over concerned about that and about the specific fear of having too much money I think what we have right now it's ridiculously low for someone who want to sue SPI for the advantage of that but yes the point you made of using having received donated money and sort of having to use them I completely agree with that From DSA point of view if we are talking about taking over more Debian.net services to Debian.org machines we will need more hardware in future and especially server hardware professional server hardware we are speaking about something like 6.000, 8.000 euros per server which then can help several virtual machines which we are currently doing for the new machines anyway so I'm curious how would people feel about going the Wikipedia way of having periodic banner saying please donate to us so who would be in favor of that who would be against that Ashish can you motivate I'm curious I'm in favor of it if we actually have some use for the money it seems like we have I guess I have to keep standing it seems like we aren't in desperate need of money but at the moments when we are I think that doing that to the frontpadeofdebian.org would be valuable but I actually think that the giant Wikipedia donate banner could have had an even bigger CD of the download banner that would probably be at least as useful for the project can someone note down this stuff in the gobby document well I think in part the opposition for many of us to this idea is because we have done this when we need this we usually don't need it but we have for example this specific donate to the conf banner it's right now there but it doesn't have to be there the whole time and it's as unobtrusive as it can be actually it is not donate to debconf it's just a link to the debconf website and on the debconf website you have a call for donors right you have to go through a second page yeah but at several points in the past many of us have to think on a way to get sponsors and we have made this click and pledge and similar ideas but we usually don't need this don't need anything like that for debian as a whole debian doesn't need more money than what it has actually no click and pledge is very often to donate to debian and the substantial amount of that money you see there comes from click and pledge but you have a point so the fact that you think it is the case it clearly means that we have a problem in showing how we are using money so I think that's a very good point but we do use money and we do receive quite some donations for instance of those 100,000 euros we have received in last year at least something like $30,000 of donations this is a couple of sometimes actually I can remember very well but we do receive money via those channels and we use them but we don't need the money I mean that we usually can get it in many ways that are not something that gets in front of the people what really bothered me about Wikipedia I have to block all the banners from there because they were really obnoxious I think that if we actually start to publish the information that we have the financial information which we are going to do as part of this auditing process that a company sees who wants to sponsor Debian because they use Debian and it sees that we have 200,000 euros in our account is going to think twice about how much money we actually need and might not donate anything because 200,000 euros is a lot of money what we I think need to think of first is how to reduce that money in the greatest way possible how to spend all of that money in the minimum on the other hand I'd be tempted to say that minimum can be really low because if actually a machine goes down and we are in desperate need I'm pretty sure that between all of us we're going to come up with the funds to re-select that machine and even if it's only on a low basis so I don't think we're going to have liquidity problems for such small issues but on the other hand so that says that we managed to go through 190,000 euros of those 200,000 in a year and here's what we did 25 sprints and Debian for 600 people and we supported this other upstart of a project then a potential donor is going to feel rather positive about giving money to that project in my opinion may I directly answer to that we ask for machines for example for snapshot Debian org and well, directly on the Debian news mailing list and answers we got where you can have that desktop sort of machine we have we have certain criterias as DSA, we want to have out of band access to machines in case hardware goes we do a kernel upgrade something breaks most of us we get hardware donations I am on the hardware donations alias is more or less desktop related hardware what's the minimum liquidity what's the minimum liquidity you want to have I think you're applying to two different points so what you're saying is that the day we need we will able to find the money while you're applying to a point that the day we need hardware we will get the hardware for free which is not quite the same thing it took us more or less half a year quarter of a year to get acceptable hardware for snapshot Debian org so this point from DSA is essentially that it's easier it's quite difficult to get donated the right hardware we need while I agree with you that if we go ask for money we'll probably get quite easily them for the hardware I agree but this is actually another point of using money providing statement of how we use the money to actually gather some I just want to respond to something that Martin just said where he said if a company sees that we have some whole bunch of euro in our bank account they might think twice about donating with that I quasi disagree with the next part you said I totally agree which is if we say and we spend 190,000 euro in a year and here's a beautiful document we produced that says that we really spent it on things that are cool then people will give us money I just want to emphasize that having money in the bank account I don't think it's realistically disincentive like having worked at some millions of dollar nonprofits and that's not the problem showing you can spend it is the problem it's not what I was trying to suggest that if there's 200,000 in the account this year and next year it's 205,000 and then it's 210,000 and we don't actually do anything we don't actually have any cash flow report with what we've been doing with that money then the company we can summarize that by saying that only saying we have that money in the banks would not look good but when that money is very low compared to the cash flow it would not be a problem Martin, anything else? I guess the question is how can we spend more money for instance you mentioned pledging for this other project which is something that historically don't feel particularly good at because they think that people who donates to Debian wants that money to be used in Debian and not to sponsor external project so this is what I've been replying to a couple of requests in that direction I think a good way to spend money is helping boost people or event people getting appropriate banners real banners not website banners merchandise material and so on which we which later on like when we print t-shirts we get that money back anyway I agree and I've been very happy to give money to the events people and actually also pushing them to do something like the event box which will have some cost but it's something that we can go to a booth look some sort of professional or at least not 20 years in the past or something like that so yes I agree there is no suggestion on specific specific things you might buy to actually improve our booth or actually improve our merchandise in general because as an idea I think we all agree on that but when it comes to you know this is the plan, this is the expected budget it will cost please say yes or no and arriving at that step from my point of view is not that easy I have an idea maybe I mean I'm gonna be shot down in a second after this incredibly successful dunk tank experiment that we've had how do I could think of a number of things that need to be done in our project which are not particularly exciting is our project ever going to think that it's acceptable for us to hire someone for I'll put it as administrative task and one of the things when we talked about earlier was one person that is there to organize your sprint for instance not a particularly geeky thing not particularly awesome but maybe one person that it could be awesome everything is awesome if you do it for free software can I just have a quick show of hands who is in favor of considering such an idea and who is absolutely against it I have a complex answer but Ganev is first Ganev leaving out the point if you are against or before it if we are ever going to hire a person we need to be very careful how we are doing it and need to ask SPI if they are actually able to do it because there are some special rules for non-profit organizations and we need to follow them exactly so on that fund there are examples of free software projects that have been hiring people for administrative tasks for instance the example I made with Martin before was the KDEV people which as far as I know I've hired only one person and she's indeed the person which is organizing the sprint the other example I'm aware of is the Gnomi Foundation I think that the executive director the Gnomi Board is hired and paid by the Gnomi Foundation so my personal take on that is that at the moment I consider a bit of a failure that as a community we are not able to attract volunteers working also on non-packaging stuff and I think we should be able to attract people which are enthusiast about Debian even if they are not computer geeks and which they like doing management stuff it's not easy I think we are not doing a good job at that and I think we should try but we should also at some point be ready to say okay you know what we have been trying for two years it's not working so what do we do what do we do either we accept that we don't have any people able voluntarily to do management or we do not accept that and we go as Martin suggested well on the other hand if we cannot attract people doing that for free we should do that I disagree I mean we are able to attract packaging contribution for free by people who are doing packaging in their own work life why shouldn't be able to attract management people which does management in their life you agree yeah you just said the same thing oh sorry I was just gonna make the point that yes you say we might have some job we haven't found someone for two years but before we give up and hire someone to do that you can also consider making the same amount of effort as it would take to hire someone in actively finding someone as in not just a mailing list post somewhere that says we're looking for it but if you imagine all the effort would take to hire someone and the processes and the interviewing and so on if you did a fraction of that there's a good chance you find a volunteer and obviously things like the sprints and so on again well I'm not necessarily saying everything should be put into one big team it might destroy things a lot of the debconf work is pretty similar and we have a lot of volunteers who want to do that that's true another idea that we had during lunch earlier was that rather than hiring an accountant or someone sorry I didn't mean to say accountant someone for a job such as the one I suggested earlier can we maybe use money to bootstrap teams and one of the teams that we were talking over lunch today that was with Penny after the Debian women stuff is for instance it seemed that wasn't there but it seemed that what was needed was some sort of like person that knows where manpower or women power is needed in the project and can then like match make project, newbie and mentor and I think this is a beautiful job for volunteers to do but it also seems like it's a fantastic task to do like just start so we could have a sprint obviously and start these things as a sprint or we could potentially take money and throw it at someone who has experience in this area for six months with the explicit goal and here I'm thinking of Debian installer and Debian edgy and all these projects that have been funded or where people have been funded with a specific goal to bootstrap a team not to do the work but to bootstrap the team yeah, of course there is a potential issue that once you do start paying someone for doing admin task or going out and being the people who know where to find the manpower womanpower whatever it's incredibly difficult then to go back away from doing that the very point when you start paying somebody to do admin work we will never find volunteers for admin work anymore they will be expecting to be paid in just the same way Paul there is a question from common way Paul I think a more fruitful approach is possibly instead of Debian hiring people directly try and find Debian funders donators who I mean there is one organisation when we have somebody from another organisation who works half day a week for us that solves all the problems with employment and if that ceases to be a donation in kind from that company then that possibly avoids the situation that Steve is because that person for the duration is not actually an administrative or Debian it's either a contribution or somebody who is being contracted in kind as well so my take on this is that so I've been in another volunteer organisation where in the beginning they were completely volunteer based and they decided to hire someone not related to computer science at all and my very tiny experience in that front is that you have a problem when you have side by side people doing the same thing someone paid and someone not paid to some extent we already have this problem in Debian because there are people which are lucky enough to be paid to also work on Debian but it's a bit different at least emotionally when also actually conceptually when it is the project itself so my personal bar on that would be in an area where we have always had volunteers well you should not put someone else which is paid to do the same at least not paid by the community of volunteers which will stay side by side with them if you are going to have entirely new area like for instance management or auditing or management or whatever this problem seems to exist but still I would personally consider it a failure because Debian is such a big project such a sort of society in which I hope we can attract volunteers working on everything the society itself needs but I would put the barrier in if it's something completely new well maybe if it's something we have always been doing in volunteer basis well no but that's a very personal take not necessarily representative of all of us just gonna say as well in terms of that volunteers and people working together it's not just that it demotivates the volunteers and they get fed up it also happens the other way around that the people who are in a paid position can feel very threatened that there are volunteers trying to take away their job from them and actually end up in a kind of political infighting with the volunteer people trying to stop the volunteers from doing work so that they justify their own paid existence well and the reason I raised my hand to have when Martin asked about this is that when the dunk tank experiment was made we were in a moment of crisis because we were at the hardest release cycle we faced and well yes, things were going very bad for the project as a whole and I think that was like a desperate maneuver to try to get things back on track that it worked partially it failed partially, yes it can be seen different ways but the thing is right now we are arguing about a completely hypothetical situation maybe you will correct me but I don't think we have any need of paid work right now the most boring tasks for some people are being carried out with passion by other people who find them interesting so I don't feel right now we have shortage of voluntary work well, if we have companies willing to pay someone with in Debian for doing a specific task in Debian like we already had I think with Debian installer parts of the Debian installer I'm completely fine with that if a company said I want this extension or this whatever in Debian as a Debian developer for that that's perfectly fine but I think we should not spend Debian assets on hiring persons within Debian I would like to mention that maybe hiring people is not a good idea but it's still interesting to consider how we can use money to bring some project to completion quicker, quickly I mean, for instance right now you have Tolef who is working on tool to convert system.dnit.config file to ccinit script is doing this on spare time it's surely going to take a lot of time maybe if we could say we're going to cover your living cost for a few weeks so that you can spend more time on this we could give this short you know, well more quickly than otherwise and I'm sure many people would love to use this money to solve this problematic discussion or should we have system there when we can have both with a bit of work but this work is not happening quickly enough I know there's not much time left that does sound incredibly like dunk tank a project which we need to complete more quickly like a release and it was meant to be covering two people's living costs for two months I think so we can get the release out I know we don't certainly have as many flame wars anymore and maybe we miss them and want to try and have more again but I'm not entirely sure if that would work another thing we can do which we haven't done in the past is advertise and recruit advertise and recruit actively, we haven't really issued press release and saying we need people who will do this please come and join the Debian project and really push for that it's all been fairly organic so that may be a way of attracting those people who we haven't had before so Raphael knows that we have debated quite often and I disagree with that, I think it's not worth even if we only consider the side effect of the huge debate that we create which I think is not a debate worth having even only that would not make it worth but besides even if I put it aside even in that model even if you're not hiring someone and actually what the other open source project are doing when they actually hire people they do not hire, they do exactly as you said so they contact them for six months but that does not solve the issue of people working side by side one volunteer and one paid so sorry time is up so thanks a lot for your input