 How many of you all got a chance to watch American Gospel TVs open or what do you call it? Their discussion, their round table discussion between Sam Storms, Michael Brown, Jim Osman and Justin Peters? I don't know if you all got to see that. I actually, I paid for the subscription. I only made it through halfway through. Then they put it on YouTube and so I watched the rest of it on YouTube instead of going to my subscription. But they do have other stuff so I do highly recommend that you guys go and support those guys over there. If at the very least go and subscribe to their YouTube channel. Now, what has been in the news really for the last, I don't know, year or so is this issue about continuationism and cessationism. The continuationist believes that the gifts of the spirit have never ceased. They are still available today. The cessations believe that they have ceased certain gifts. Now it didn't mean that the cessations believe that you can and I'm not representing them all both fully but it just means that they still believe that there are miracles but not necessarily at the hands of a human being. Me personally, I am as I said, as many of you are, we are biblical continuationists. Meaning the sign gifts can continue and we would recognize that so long as they look like what they look like in the Bible. I don't need someone telling me that this off-brand prophecy that's 17.5% accurate is the same prophecy that we see in the Bible because we don't see that. We don't ever see God's prophets ever failing, not once. I don't need you to tell me that this brand of tongues that no one can understand and that no one can make out including the person that's speaking it is the same as in the Bible. What we see is the actual language is. In other words, so if I see a gift then it must be the way it's done in the Bible and then I'm all for it. That's how, that's me. I am not in the position, nor will I ever be in the position to believe that someone is just all of a sudden come up with something that looks totally different than what we see in the Bible. And so if it happens, it happens, fine. But I'm not gonna go out looking for it. I'm not gonna do what they say which is to pursue spiritual gifts because the Bible does not say pursue spiritual gifts. That being the case, in looking at this that was something that just, that got underneath my skin. To be honest with you, got underneath my skin it bothered me. And I'm gonna say this, I have, initially I had a lot of respect for Dr. Michael Brown, a lot. As a matter of fact, there were times I didn't even know he was even charismatic when I first heard of him because the first few times that I heard the first several times I heard him on his radio show there was nothing really charismatic coming out about him. He seemed to go through the scriptures pretty well. I will say this though, over the course of some weeks I have a better appreciation and respect for Sam Storms although I disagree with him because he's at least honest on some things. Now, when I'm watching this there are some things that kind of bothered me about really both of them but particularly Michael Brown. And I would wish that this whole thing would have been really more so along the lines of going into the scriptures as to both of both groups making their points, why this is so, why this is not so, why we believe this, why you're wrong. I would have loved to see that happen with the scriptures but it really wasn't the case it was really kind of picking out or giving examples as to why this stuff is foolishness and kind of giving a defense. And it was okay, I liked it but at the same time I would have rather it had been more kind of scripturally self-sufficient. But in dealing with Michael Brown if you start peeling back the layers and start looking at some of the things that he said and stated and so forth I got a problem with a lot of the things he says. For example, I don't have a problem with you taking having a belief that you can lose your salvation. I think that's wrong, I think that's incorrect but if you're gonna take a passage and malign the passage, twist the passage in a way that nobody else recognizes this. And you first see this, he's having a Q and A and a lady asked him a question about Matthew seven. Matter of fact, before we finish let's go ahead and put the passage up first. Then we'll listen to him, give his response to it. He says, not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of my Father who was in heaven. So question, what is this about? Not everyone who says to me, who says Lord Lord will do what? Enter the kingdom of heaven. Speak about entering the kingdom of heaven. Are you guys with me? Now I don't know that anyone's gonna have a problem with this text, at least so far with what he's trying to convey here. Many will say to me in that day Lord did we not prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and in your name perform many miracles. And then I will declare to them, I never knew you depart from me, you who practice lawlessness. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness. So let's see how Dr. Michael Brown interprets this passage. My question's not really well put together but so basically I don't even know the scripture word for word but it's when it's a parable that Jesus gives and he says, you know many will come to me saying Lord Lord did we not prophesy in your name did we not cast out demons in your name and then et cetera and then Jesus says oh get away from me, you who practice evil I never knew you. So could you elaborate a little bit on that? Yeah, so it's in Matthew the seventh chapter and starting in verse 21 that everyone who says to me Lord Lord we'll enter the kingdom of heaven but only those who do the will of my father and then it continues the next verse as many will say to me on that day Lord haven't we prophesied in your name in your name did we not demons done many mighty works and he'll say I never knew you depart from me you workers of lawlessness or iniquity. Now just real briefly I do have this sped up because for the sake of time I do have them sped up and so he just recanted. By the way the sister asks he says Isaiah would have been labeled a false prophet today his prophecies of Messiah didn't happen in his lifetime I'm gonna cover that or an aspect of that in just a little bit so hold on. So how does that work? There are a couple different ways to read it. One is that they never knew him that they worked counterfeit miracles and that they were self deceived and there are people working counterfeit miracles that are doing it by the power of Satan. Another is that they were so deceived they weren't doing anything they just thought they were doing all these great things and they weren't. But the most logical way to read it is to read it in first century Jewish terms where I never knew you was a formula for excommunication that they once were used by God but they ceased living for God and doing the will of God. So yes they were used in miracles and things like that like Judas Iscariot. So it could be people that worked miracles and fellow Wyatt and Baxley and which Jesus says to them I never knew you meaning away from me. That's absolutely not true. There's no way to read it that way. What it is is a way of kind of doubling down and making a text fit what you believe. Again, going back to the text it's not Jesus saying them being excommunicated. Excommunicated from what? There is no church yet. The church hadn't been established. So they're not excommunicated from what? From Israel? That's not the case. As a matter of fact, we know what God is doing with Israel at that point in time and so they're not excommunicated from Israel and not from the church. And again, the point that he's making what he's bringing up is that people who will enter the kingdom of heaven and he says, I will declare to them I never knew you depart from me. And so that's just a, it's not a serious response. And so it gives you an idea to look and say, wait a second, is he serious here? Is this a case where he's trying to prove a point? Where he's trying to make it a point? Now, this text that necessarily blow away the point of lost salvation but it's never, you cannot take this that it means that someone absolutely was saved. And then, well, you're excommunicated because that's not what it means. And the silly little idiom that he says to me, that's not true either. But that being the case, I wanna go ahead and jump into it. I'm gonna go to certain parts of the video. This is a part of the video where they're talking about Kevin's a die. Kevin's a die is a bit off in what he says. And I'm being charitable, a bit off in what he says. And so they're asking him about Kevin's a die. Okay, we all agree. I think we all agree that Kat Kerr is unhinged. Unhinged, loony, right? Yes. But I would submit to you that the guests that Sid Roth regularly has on his program weekend and week out are no less loony than Kat Kerr is. No less than... I would find that hard to believe. But if they were... But then you need to watch a show. But if they were, I don't watch. But if they were, if they were and I agree, yeah, loony, I'm not going to say he's a false teacher or false prophet, the unwilled. So now the issue, now they're gonna remember Kevin's a die in a second, but their brooch is all around Sid Roth. And I'm not going to let Sid Roth be a false teacher, a false prophet, a heretic or any of those things. And we're gonna find out the reason why. And his rationale, their rationales as to, as to these things is wrong. It is absolutely wrong. So therefore they're bringing up Kat Kerr. Well, we don't know her and she does say some loony things like as though there's Santa Claus in heaven and there's Christmastown and all these little silly things and meeting Jesus and Jesus doing weird things. And they're gonna, so they're talking about, what's his name? I forgot the guy's name. Oh Lord, Lord, I forgot the guy's name. My mind just went blank just like I was looking at several different things. But they're talking about him platforming these heretics. And one of those also being Kevin Zadai. And so we've got a problem here and they're addressing this and there's a reluctancy of them wanting to even say that certain things or certain people can actually be false teachers or heretic. Now, I've said this before. It's Sid Roth, thank you guys. It's possible for a person to be, not all false teachers are going to hell. For example, a false teacher can be someone, if you give the mic to a seven year old, someone who has actually placed their faith in Christ or 12 year old or 15 year old and ask them to start spouting out doctrine. They're gonna be all over the place. They're not going to hell. They just, again, they don't know very much. The problem is someone who's older and should know better. Like supposedly a Sid Roth. Like supposedly a Kevin Zadai. Like supposedly a Michael Brown. And willingness for you guys to agree, Sid Roth should shut down his ministry and his television program because he is platforming the people that you guys say you agree are the excesses. Oh, well, I've never been that. Have you ever asked me that question? No, no, I'm not. But I mean, you've never gone on your program, correct me if I'm wrong, and said, I think, or you've never told Sid Roth. This man needs to stop platforming these people because week after week he has some of the, some of the looniest, the looniest stories that Kevin Zadai says Jesus appeared in the foot of his bed and played the saxophone. Jesus taught somebody the warrior dance in heaven. This is nonsense. I mean, there's- Well, okay, let's go to the warrior dance in heaven. How do you know that's nonsense? Just out of curiosity, if Zephaniah III speaks of God dancing over his people- You think that's what that's about? I'm just asking you a question. Now he's being silly. He's really being silly that Sid Roth is talking about this stuff and he says, well, Zephaniah says you can dance. Oh, wait a second, that's not what Zephaniah means. And he's asking him. He says, do you really think that's what it means? He says, well, I'm just, I'm just, no answer the question, let's be, if you're going to be a scholar or claim to be a scholar or Christ the scholar, be scholarly. Question, in other words, there's a lot of weird things in the Bible that if they happen today, you guys would question and say it couldn't be never, yeah, you throw an accent, you throw this in and it causes the accent to float. You do, you know, the Lord tells you this to that, a lot of things seem crazy. Because I take the written word of God at a different level than I do the report of Kevin Zedai. Now, he makes a statement and people say these things all the time. My sister earlier said that, I'm not sure if she's making the same point but the statement was still there nonetheless, that some of the things that these prophets or apostles said or did in the Bible, we may have rejected it. No, we would not have rejected, you know why? Here's how, here's two reasons why. First of all, when we look at the prophets in the Bible, all of them, they all had a level of respect because what they said came true. What they did was accurate. And so you tell me which prophet were there, who was the prophet that said something that the people of God doubted? I'll wait for a minute. Who was the prophet that the people of God came? So you know what? We don't think it's true. Now you might say Jeremiah because those folks were listening to the good words would have, but they still, they still actually heated his word. They didn't like it. Now no one converted, but that's fine though. The point is, it still stands. But even more to the point, give me one episode, one instance in the Bible where a miracle or a move of God occurred and the people didn't know it was God. Give me one time where something in the Bible occurred that it was clearly the hand of God and the people said, no, that's not, nope. Sorry, that's not God. You can't think of one. Because as I said before, when the spirit moves, when God moves, everybody knows it. The issue is, will they still accept? Will they still even pharaoh after? You know what? Yeah, you know what? Let them go. But God hardened his heart. The blind and the one who was born blind. What did the Pharisees say? Well, we can't deny that something has happened. So they know when God moves, everybody knows it, including the hardheaded children of Israel, including all of us hardheaded people here in the chats. We all, when the Lord moves, when he really moves. Now, and sometimes we might think he moves and we might ascribe it to him, but when he absolutely moves, yeah. And so whatever would have happened, whatever Isaiah or Jeremiah or Ezekiel or anyone else would have done or said they knew. And so too would we have also. All right, do you believe that? Okay, Kevin Zadai reports, they reenact, Kevin Zadai says, and he wrote a book, A Mystery of the Power of Words, for which he wrote the forward. He claims that Jesus showed up at the foot of his bed playing a saxophone. I don't believe that. Do you believe that? I've never heard him say it. Do you believe it? I don't believe it. Do you believe it? Part of the problem is, I don't even know who the guy is. So I don't know his background. I don't know his character. Is that frequent gas on Sid Roth's brother? How does that even matter? If I said it, would you believe that? I would investigate closely and say, tell me more about it. What was the purpose of it? What was the fruit that came from it? Is it consistent with what we see in scripture? Because I know you're a Godly man who believes in the authority of the Bible. Did y'all see Jim's face? Did anybody see? How does that even matter? That's the point. How in the world does that even matter? If someone said, Jesus showed up at the foot of my bed tickled my feet a little bit, pulled the cover off my toes and then began playing the sax. I don't care who said that. If my mother, if she were alive, said that. Mama, I tell you what, what are you doing, son? Right now, I'm looking for hospitals to check you into. What if my wife said something like that? No, sweetheart, no, no. Let me touch on the head. Are you okay? That didn't happen. Well, first of all, I don't even know him, but does it matter? Well, if he's a Godfreyian man, well, maybe he's not. And we're gonna find out what this is gonna deal with is the level of their discernment. Now, something that my former pastor, former mentor told me, he's passed away. He said this. He said, be careful about gaining knowledge and then getting old with that knowledge. He says, because there's a lot of former scholars or scholars who, as they got older, began departing away from what they knew to be what they held as true. And he started going down a list of names and it's true. You see a lot of people, the older they get, they might start thinking of some things, might start pontificating, might start rethinking, or just for the sake of still being relevant, say some things. In the world of academia, you'll find a lot of professors, a lot of scholars that will say something, in many cases, that's so profound or outlandish, just to get published. Because if I keep saying the same thing that everyone else is saying, that doesn't make me stick out. So that's a huge issue. And to say that, well, it doesn't matter if you know the person. Now, let me ask you guys a question. Let me put you guys on the side. I just wanna ask you a question. Does it matter if you know me? What I say matters, but knowing me person doesn't matter. We're gonna find out. We're gonna find out that they don't even believe that. Especially one person doesn't believe that whether you know someone or not. One person who doesn't necessarily believe that knowing someone actually matters. Todd White is famous for his YouTube channel. He goes around and finds people randomly on the street and asks them if they have anything wrong. Versailles, shoulder sore, backache, that kind of stuff. And he puts people to sit some down and has them straighten their legs out, holding one foot in each hand. And he puts the legs together and without exception, one leg is just about that much shorter than the other one. I don't know Todd White, just while you're a surgeon. I don't know Todd White. So, listen, there are a lot of people in prison that you don't know they deserve to be there. But they're not there because you know them. And someone's not a false teacher because you don't know them or you do know them. The prerequisite of you knowing them intimately is not there. You don't have to know this person. And so you don't know Todd White. Something that Justin said, and it's true, if what these people are doing and saying, if they're not false teachers, they're not false prophets, well then there no one is, there's no such definition. If you can't say what these people are, if you can't call it like it is, then no one has it. And I said this before, the Bible literally speaks about false prophets and false teachers. As a matter of fact, let's put it on the screen and let's look at what Peter says. By the way, Jesus said the same thing. He said beware of these false prophets, these false Christ, beware of these wolves, these folks who are inwardly like wolves. Well, why would he tell us to be wary of that and warn us of that if there were never going to be a such thing? Peter says, but false prophets also arose among the people, past tense, among the people. By the way, this phrase right here, somebody remind me to cover this in the Greek later on, not on this topic, not on this stage, but we'll cover this and too. There's a point to that, but because we're talking about this among the people, some of the Dr. White and how I had an issue about being among the people in James 519 and then also James 513 and among the people is not referring to the actual believers. But y'all remind me to cover that later again. But anyway, he says, but false prophets rose also among the people. The people weren't false prophets, but amongst them there were false prophets just as there will also be false teachers. So false teachers and false prophets are synonymous. He says, among you who will secretly introduce destructive heresies even denying the master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. And he talks about a lot of these different things and how they're going to exploit you and so forth. And so there's going to be them, there were and there are and there will be false teachers, false prophets among you. Now, this is what he says about Todd White. Surfing there, I've never met him. I've never listened to him speak. I do know from credible witnesses that he has led hundreds of people to save in faith in Christ. Okay, but that's another. How do you know? One of the things that I'm, he's not, he's let a couple of things about that. He's led hundreds of people to Christ. How do you know? How do you know? There's no way to know. There's no, now there may have been, he says that hundreds of people have made a profession verbally, but we don't know if they are or not. Again, the Bible does warn that there are people who think they are and are not. And so we're not totally sure. But secondly, can a person come to Christ at the mouth of a false teacher? Sure. The people that might print up a track, are they all saved? Is the printer saved? But I read this track and in this track, it hit me. Well, well, one plant, one waters, but God gives you, it's ultimately God that opens that heart, right? And so I don't care that someone says they did at the hands of my, guess what? People in Mormonism, people in the Jehovah's Witness group, there are people there that place their faith in Christ, not even fully knowing what Jehovah's Witnesses were or Mormons were. And then as they grew, the spirit speaking to them, and then they are, excuse me, learning the word, you know what, this doesn't line up. My head and my heart, it matches what you guys are teaching. So I'm out here. Thank you for all you did. Thank you for allowing the Lord to use you, but now that's gonna be a judgment against you. So yeah, you can hear the gospel even at the mouth of a false teacher. What did we just read in Matthew 721? Let's go back to it. He says, many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name and perform many miracles? And what does he say to them? I never knew you. So it's possible to be used by God and then go to hell. So yeah, what you said about Todd White matters not. Another thing I've listened to him to a lot. Todd White never talks about, he's like Joel Osteen in a sense. He never talks about sin, never talks about God's wrath. Just behind the scenes, whenever we talked, it was always about Jesus, about loving God, about the word of God. When I asked him something, a practical question with his ministry, he had no idea about income or what came in or how, but he had this tremendous excitement about praying for the sick. I'm gonna show you how he did it. Now, I knew the guy, I spoke to the guy, he's a wonderful guy. Let me just say this, guys, in case you don't know. You ever notice how there are deals? People use to talk about how deals are open and closed and so forth, or let's say a golf course or in different clubs. Why? Because you spend an hour or two with somebody and you feel like you know the person. That's a good guy. Now you don't know what the guy's doing. He might be at home cutting off chicken heads. He might be putting little puppies in bags and throw them in the river. You don't know what he's doing, but because you spent some time with him and he says some nice things, oh, that guy's great, that guy's wonderful. But in many cases, you might not, in many cases, know who the person really is. Now, he is going to show them the scheme that Mike Todd is doing. And oh, by the way, my brother, Cozar, thank you so much because he's done a lot of good work in putting this stuff out. And so the video is sped up a little bit, but if you ever wanna see it, go to his channel and you'll see him demonstrating how Mike Todd, not Mike Todd, Todd White. By the way, others are doing it too. Daniel Adam does it, this little fake leg lengthening thing. And oh, by the way, they even mentioned that Mike Brown, sit, Michael, Mike Brown, Michael Brown, said that that was some of the they did in the past as well. And so, yeah, thank you, brother, for your work. And so we're gonna reference him showing this because they turn the camera, not the camera, turn the laptop around and show them this. You're seeing this in your face and then you still want to deny that. By the way, make sure you guys go to the channel, The Mess Up Church and make sure don't just check it out, but subscribe. Let's go back to it. Now we're gonna see Todd White's clip, sped up quite a bit and looped back and forth. Now this is where we can see what's really going on here. The leg on our right is supposed to be the short leg and this is the leg which should be miraculously growing, but it's not. Look at the leg on our left. That's where all the action is. That's what's actually being manipulated. You can see that Todd is actually pivoting or shifting the foot of the so-called long leg so that the heels match. Now, he's doing this very slowly over time, but it's painfully obvious when you speed up the clip. That is intentional, deliberate deception. And you know that for a fact. Deception. And he says, and you know that for a fact. You're looking at it. By the way, I don't know if you all saw it. If you go back and look at it when the clip starts off, if you notice, if you notice Sam's face like, whoa, kind of shocked. And that is intentional deception. And what does Michael Brown say? And you know that for a fact. You can't look at that and see. See, this is why your discernment is in question now. You can't look at that and see that that is clearly manipulative and then you go on and say the same thing that you guys usually do the same thing knowing it was wrong. Wow. You can say before God without any possible doubt that you know Todd intentionally performed a trick because he does, he has done that thousands of times. But my question is if nothing happened, if he willingly has deceived all these people, then how is it that so many have attested lasting healing afterwards? Because sleight of hand for all of them straight is not going to do it. That's what we just witnessed, Sam. I mean, you saw that. Well, I know what we saw wasn't what we thought we saw. And I know it was wrong, but how does that explain the people who felt like that they were healed later? The psychosomatic thing that's taking place and then where they feel, just like you can feel like they're sick and not be sick, they can feel like they're well and not be well because maybe the pain that they were having was just, listen, especially for older people, do you know who tend to have these little things where they feel like they've been healed and not really been healed because there's not really anything going on? Well, because sometimes you get older, man, I think something's wrong with me. Oh, my kidney is hurting. Oh, my liver, my liver feels strained. My abdomen is bruised. You're a man. Hey, my ovaries are sore. You don't have ovaries. Well, whatever it is right there, it's sore. I think I've got a demon in my colon. Silly things. Because let's be honest, the older you get, the more you feel like, I wonder if something is happening inside. I've been having this, I've been having indigestion. Is something wrong? Am I having a heart attack? All sorts of things can happen and you wonder, but now you feel better. It's the power of positive suggestion. And so that's what's happening, but did you not see what was shown me and you think that's okay? And that's how he got to start and you think it's okay? You think Mr. Dredlock guy, Michael, Todd White, I'm sorry, Michael, Todd White, you think he's legitimate because you talked to him. Okay, now we're gonna talk about unjust scales in just a second, but I wanna see how they bring up this issue with Mike Bickle. And I'm getting more and more to my point, when I get to my point, I wanna see if you see the exact same thing. And the things that he taught in those regards, call them the false teacher. But that was something you have to, so can't you then accept them? I get what you're saying. We have our reluctance. So I'm talking to Todd Freel, right? And he says to me, Mike Bickle, false teacher, right? So I'm just... Do you all believe Mike Bickle's a false teacher? This is one of those things that just didn't age well. Just, this just didn't age well at all. Now, they didn't know at the time that Mike Bickle was trash. They didn't know at the time that he was a predator. They didn't know these things and stuff was coming out over and over. They didn't know this. And so what do they do? And I'm glad, I don't know if American guys will do this on purpose, but this makes them look bad. So they issue a statement. I don't know if you all have heard about what's happened with Mike Bickle. The allegations I have to say, molesting his babysitter and then more allegations have come out, even going way back, you know, a couple of decades. And so it's looking pretty bad. It's looking pretty bad. It's almost like what we found out about, oh Lord, what's the guy that died? The apologist. I can't, getting old, getting old is something else. Man, I need, you know what I need? I need some ginko biloba. I'm drinking the coffee and it just ain't working. Who's the guy that we found out about that was just, yeah, Ravi Zacharias. Thank you. Thank you. Listen, I love my chat. You guys, I should take you with me. When I go take a test or an exam, I need you guys with me, so I should have known that. But everyone's swore by Ravi Zacharias. This guy loves the Lord. Again, you don't know, which is why I'll make this statement again. Who is safe and unsaved? There are a few folks that I'll say, there's just no way I can believe this person's safe. But then is this guy a brother or this guy going to save? I'll say, I don't know. I don't know if any of you all are. I think you are. And so what do I have to do? I have to treat you like a brother or like a sister and hold you accountable to that. But I don't know. Seems like it, seems like it. Yeah, I do have that old, there is a demon called old demon. He is, yeah, there's a demon called old. Anyway, so this issue about Mike Bickle. So they issue a statement about Mike Bickle. Now, as you see it, they say that both of us were caught completely off guard by the recent disclosures concerning Mike Bickle's sin. We had only known Mike to be a godly man who was leading an exemplary life. Our comments in the discussion affirming, Mike were recorded six months before numerous allegations were made against him. And we acknowledged that we were lied to and deceived by Mike and we grieve for the damages, so on and so on and so on and so on and so on. Okay, I'm trying to, okay. Okay, there we go. I'm waiting for the most next one. To whatever extent Mike's sin undermines the integrity of the history of the Kansas city, profits is yet to be determined. While we both continue to regard Mike Bickle as a friend, we are devastated by the depth of deception in his life. So let's continue with him. Let them go ahead and explain. I believe that Mike Bickle has lied about a number of things. In fact, not the least of which, he claims to have been to heaven at least twice. I don't believe that. I don't believe he's been here. We may not believe it, but how can you know he's lying? There's only two possibilities. Theologically, biblically, he has not been to heaven. So I don't believe he has. Okay, I'm sorry, Sam. You believe he has? Again, it can't happen. Two things you can't do biblically. You can't go to heaven and come back. You can't go to hell and come back. So if you believe he has, well then now we have to question you. Okay, I see. I strongly agree with that. Everything that you said about being here without knowing them personally, Mike Bickle is probably my best friend in this world. I was in a small group with him and his wife for seven years on his staff as a senior associate involved at IHOP for additional four years, 11 years. I know this man to the depths of his soul. I can't think of more biblically orthodox, humble, Christ exalting individual who lives a incredibly simple lifestyle. We would look as if we are living the Benny Hill lifestyle compared to how Mike lives. Mike was so righteous. He was a wonderful, I've known him for so long and he was a great man. He loved the Lord. I'm telling you, you were wrong. And again, that age, that thing aged poorly. Every penny of his honoraria and of his royalties goes to missions. In this little house. He lives in a duplex. He's lived in a duplex all his life. If it weren't for his wife dressing him, he'd look like a hobo, no offense, Mike, but I've told him that to his face. So when I hear people say, I think Mike Bickle is a false teacher, it angers me. I mean, I was one of the elders in his church. Nobody claimed to be an apostle. We would never have conceded that an apostle should rule and govern the church. That sort of thing was just simply never present. This speaks to a lack of discernment. Now, it's not a sin to not be discerning like they should be, but if you want us to trust you, you've got to be someone that is discerning. But guess what? If you put your emotions before the text, that's the kind of thing that's gonna happen. But if you put your text before what you see, if you can tell your friend, hey, you are horrible, you're rotten, something's wrong there, then you won't have you sticking your neck out and saying things like that. And oh, by the way, it's not just him. Just happen to be in this clip that it's more him. But don't let stuff be fooled. Michael Brown also believed at the time that Mike Bickle was a brother in the Lord, that he was a good godly man and so forth. And so he was deceived. How is it that you spent that much time and you thought that he was a good brother, but thus us, a thousand miles away, could see that no, he was not. Not about the moral failings in his life, not with the other things. And so it calls into question your ability to be trusted, not just discerning, but trusted. I think what it's gonna come down to is we're gonna be slower to make that final, false teacher thing, even though we say that's definitely a dangerous teaching, you'd be quicker to, and we each have our reasons for it. And perhaps sometimes it's just knowing the people. Now, let's say, I'm okay with that to some degree. He says, there are some, if we're gonna be slower to call them false, this or that or whatever, which is fine. I don't have, I do not. Guys, I said before, I don't have a problem with someone being slower to call someone a false teacher, nor do I have a problem with someone being quick. Now, if you're gonna be quick, make sure you're correct. Cause if you're gonna be quick to call someone that and they're not, well, then now you got a problem. Now you can call them the teachings false. And so we'll let things go out and play out and so forth to see if that person's a false teacher the teachings themselves might be false. You can offer false teachings and not be a false teacher. We covered in the video before, I think about a week or so ago about what a false teacher is a false teacher, a false prophet. And there is an intent. There is a consistency. And whether they end up, whether they want to move people away from Christ, from God, or they don't, but the effect is still the same. God didn't talk about their intent being people leaving away from God, from him. But it works out that way because ultimately what's behind that is something, something satanic. And I don't think anyone has a problem with that. And so, yeah, if you say that you are slow, you are slow to call out things and they are more quicker. They're quicker to do so. There's a passage that tells us about something. And this is where it gets me a little bothered. These are some things that God doesn't like and that he does like adjust scales and scales belong to the Lord and weights of the back are his concern. So if you have unjust scales, that's a problem with the Lord. If you see things and weight things differently. Also, he says in chapter 18 verse, in probably 1813, he says, he who gives an answer before he hears, it is folly and shame to him. So now, if you like to give, you want to be a little bit differential and let's just wait and see. Now, some of these guys, Jesus coming and playing a saxophone at your bed, you're not ready to say anything about that. You're not ready to say, well, okay, let's just see particularly Michael Brown. Now, I'll say this when John Clash had a discussion with Sam Storms. Sam Storms was gracious, he was humble, and I can appreciate that. He stated that in this issue about demons and so forth that he's not really taking the affirmative position. He thinks so, but it's hard for him to prove it and he admitted that, which was fine. Now, Michael Brown on the other hand, he doesn't defer for anything. He doesn't defer to anything or for anything. Now, here's a phone call between Jim Osmond. Calls in and I want you to listen to how, if you think, I think so, if you think that Michael Brown is impugning Jim's heart in this phone call. Yeah, he's the looniest of the looniest of charismatic charlatans and hucksters. Right, so when you slander a brother, I've known Sid since the 1980s. I've had family members that have worked side by side with him. He's neither Charlton nor Huckster. And let me just say this again, because you've known him or you've had family members, my, listen, I've got two letters, two big letters. So, I don't care that you knew him. So, how many folks are in jail right now and their family's like, I thought I knew him. How many people go on shootings, freezing their parents is like, that's not my baby, I know him. Okay, okay, go talk to the bodies littered on the street because this guy went crazy and you didn't know. Go talk to the mother in Michigan, whose son goes shooting up the school. And, well, that's not, I didn't, what you know doesn't matter, the evidence is before you. He has not accumulated personal wealth through the gospel. He does not use the gospel for personal gain. I don't agree with certain guests that he has on. I would differ with him on different points, but I have walked with him and seen his heart for the Lord for decades. He lives a godly life. I have never met a person in America who is more zealous to win people to Jesus. And by the way, when people say things like that, I've never met a person, and I understand giving high privilege to defend yourself and defend your friends. I get that, I get that. But here's the key, like Biden said, allegiance to Christ above all, not to your friend, forget your friend, your friend. Listen, how many times have your friends let you down? Cause I can promise you, I can promise you if Mike Bickel or Sid Roth had every important time came out and said anything about them, they would have cast them aside pretty quickly. Jesus, so when you make a judgment, not based on scripture, but based on your perception and you think that you have the right to damn someone to hell, that's very serious. And that is such an extraordinary blind spot to me that you and other hypocritics don't see. That grieves me terribly. Here's someone I've known firsthand, shared office space with in the 80s. And I've known for decades. And in terms of his personal life, has never moved a single inch from wanting to glorify God, demonstrate his power and win people to the Lord, especially Jewish people. But that's it. Before I went off on my federal tour, I had some friends, especially one of my best friends. Matter of fact, one of my two best friends. Never would have thought he would have turned on me and been kind of operating behind my back, stabbed me in the back, so to speak. Never would have thought that in a million years, known each other since we were 13, 14. Never would have thought that in a million years, but guess what, it happens. It happens, you don't know people like you think you do. Matter of fact, we have a hard enough time knowing ourselves, don't we? Let alone somebody else. That doesn't make me question whether he's saved or not, but when you call him a Charlotte and a Huckster, right? He's not, he's neither. I know him, I know his staff, I know his team. He's neither of this. Now you may say he has crazy guests on, I think he believes crazy things, but to call him a Charlotte and a Huckster, you have no knowledge or evidence of that. Doesn't it concern you to speak such words like that and to judge others in such a severe way? Does that trouble you at all? Does that give you pause for thought? But you said he's a Charlotte and a Huckster. He's neither of those. I know it for a fact. I know it for a fact, he's neither of those. He's not spending money by selling a program and promoting some of the stupidest and most inane things to ever disgrace the people on him. In your opinion, my son-in-law, who I know interbelies, it's our, it's our younger daughter's husband, one of my closest friends, a wonderful man of God, was his producer for years. I got a cousin who had a friend who used to go with a girl in junior high who now lives around the corner from a guy who sells meat to this guy. Yeah. So I know him. I know him inside and out. He could be what you think he is. For years and walk side by side. So you may think he has loony guests on, you may think he believes loony things, but I can tell you for a fact, he's not a charlatan and he's not a huckster. You have falsely accused someone. Let's say he's not even saved. Let's say you're right, he's not even saved. You still falsely accused him of being a charlatan and a huckster. That doesn't trouble you, which means there's something fundamentally missing in your own relationship with God. Otherwise you'd walk more carefully. You wouldn't just be throwing these names around or the fact that you're gonna question my discernment. There's something fundamentally missing in your relationship. He's literally impugning Jim Osmond's walk because Jim Osmond is impugning Sid Roth's walk. Something's not adding up there. There's something fundamentally missing with, let's just call it your walk. Maybe you ain't saved, something wrong with you. You just easily throw this stuff out there. You can't see this stuff. Doctor Michael Brown, you can't see this. Now, if y'all remember, when I had my discussion with Michael Brown, couple of things came up. The first discussion that he had when we were on this channel, we brought up this issue about, we're talking about tongues. And we were talking about, and if we go to 1 Corinthians, or is it at 1 Corinthians, yeah, 1 Corinthians 14. And we were talking about what it means to interpret, interpretation. And I use this passage right here, all throughout what the word interpret means. I said, well, the word interpret or interpretation refers to explain. It's really where we get the word from that's describing hermeneutics. And so in this passage, I'm telling you what it means. Y'all look at the bottom of what it says. Look at what it says. The bottom of this says to explain or to interpret. Amen. So if that's what it means, he comes back and says, now he says it kind of in passing. Now, I said it and I say, okay, well, you said it doesn't mean that. He's the best at what that word means. Well, no, I thought that's what it meant, but I could be wrong. I could be wrong. He's a scholar. He's got his PhD or whatever in near Eastern languages and so forth, not necessarily Greek, but he should understand some of the Greek. That's not what that word means. That's absolutely what that word means. Absolutely what the word means. There is no doubt about it. No doubt about it whatsoever, but he says that's not. Now, if y'all remember the debate that we had on the gospel truth channel about one saved all the way saved, he asked a question and I could not fully flesh the question out because of the timeframe. And so he didn't let me, and I came back after this is what I was trying to say for lack of time dealing with being sanctified and how that's done and it's permanent. And now we're being perfect once and for all, it's done. But in that, do you all recall how many times Michael Brown brought up the fact that I did not know the rules of the debate that I should have said what I was gonna say I had a time and he said it three times. Let me just let y'all know, let y'all be the secret. I said to him when I apologize, but prior to that happening, this is the problem that you didn't hear that at the time but it bothered me later because he was being completely disingenuous. I had talked to Marlon, Marlon, I don't do formal debates. So I tell you what, ask him if he wouldn't mind going first. One, I'm not familiar with the structure. I should know. Not for me, I've got things going on. And tell him forgive me, but I'm not all that familiar with how you guys wanna do it at the time and so forth. But if you go first, I'll follow suit. Well, he said, okay, no problem. That's not gonna be a problem. And I asked him again before he said, I'll remind him. I don't know if Marlon asked to remind him or not. I think he did. But then for him to come back and say three times that he's bothered by the way that I'm handling not understanding the debate rules and so forth. You knew that ahead of time. You knew that ahead of time and you made that a point at least three times, maybe four times, I'm not sure. And I apologize every time. So here's my issue. Now, he didn't have a problem. He didn't have, or he has a problem with someone maybe jumping the gun and impugning someone else's, especially a charismatic. He's Johnny on the spot to defend a charismatic. But he shows up at someone else's channel. I think this is a horrible channel. Let me just go ahead and put it out there. Why? To impugn me. He doesn't know me, doesn't know me at all. But think about it, Mike Bickle, Sid Roth, Kevin Zadai, Benny Hinn, all of these people and so on and so on and so on, their brothers in the Lord, they love the Lord. However, Corey Miner, I was never saved. I'd say maybe they were never saved or maybe they walked away from their salvation. The very verse that I think Corey was leading to Hebrews 12 speaks of the situate brothers that none of you departs from the living God, having an unbelieving heart, meaning that you've fallen to unbelief and depart, you were there. Now you depart from the living God. So that's where we have our difference. But what's through- Now, this is a conversation that he's having with this other person who he was brought on to pretty much trash me. Now, what's funny is, he comes on the channel and the conversation was about one say, well, he's talking about one say all the same, even though the person whose channel he's on says that he didn't believe in, I mean, says he believes in internal security, but Dr. Brown does not believe in it. So he's on there and he's just kind of having unfettered access to say that you can lose your salvation. But the whole point obviously was to kind of trash me. And we know that because he even talks about how he was sharing these videos to talk about me. So I'm not saved according to where I was not saved in. But what he knew me was I didn't, Corey had me on a show to talk about tongues and then he wanted to do this debate. So I knew him very, very little. Again, it's not to throw stones at our brother, but I knew him very little, but I didn't know his testimony. He said, yeah, he was in prison and so on. And so I just assumed that was before he was saved, right? And then he self confessed he was in adulterous affair, et cetera, and doing these other things. I went to prison. I just assumed he got saved in prison. And it's not, I got my story, you got your story. So I was surprised when you brought those other clips to my attention. And you know me, I pressed you, give me a time signature. Just, you know, I'm just gonna believe something because someone says it, especially if it's raising a concern about someone else in the Lord. So when I heard that, here's what concerned me. Number one, it did not fit his description, but that he had just given. If he said I was conflicted every day, I think, God, what am I doing? I'm in a trap here. I'm defrauding people. But it seemed like it was almost kind of downplaying his guilt and from the past. So it would have been persistent unrepentant sin over a period of years apparently. Well, then he wasn't a Christian and based on his definition. So I wasn't a Christian. I was living in persistent unrepentant sin, which wasn't the case. And he's got my information. He can contact, he got my contact information. She could ask me, but he didn't. However, when it's someone who we can look at the scriptures and see what they've said and what they've done, that person ain't saved. I mean, that person is safe. That person, no, he's not a false teacher, not a false prophet. He's a good man of the Lord. He loves the Lord. But Corey, who I don't know anything about his past, I just saw this clip, he wasn't saved. That's what you call unjust scales. So the person who he perceives is against his point and against Charismatic, he would never save. But let the Charismatic do any and everything, that guy loves the Lord. I've known him for 37 years. Even though he's been playing with the children, he loves the Lord. I didn't know about that guy. Well, you didn't know about me either. And see, there's a problem. There comes a point in time where your time has passed, and let me just say this, I'm not trying to be rude or mean, but yeah, Michael Brown probably needs to go ahead and step back. You had a good run, but if you can't even discern, or if you want to discern incorrectly, or if you wanna do so without all the information, maybe you ought to sit back. Maybe you ought to step back. Anyone that asked me what was going on in my past, I don't have a problem saying, and I'll say this was happening. Okay, so it wasn't quite unrepentant, was it? And it wasn't always persistent, was it? No, Michael Brown, but because you lack discernment, you went on, again, showing you lack of discernment to go on that channel in the first place to talk about me, because he brought the other person on to talk about me and the other person, older man, who happens to be Pentecostal, said, I'm not gonna say that about that guy. I don't know him, and so the man showed another person, Bishop Wooden happened to show what a true man, I'm a true person, I don't know him enough to say that he was or wasn't, I'd have to talk with him. But notice, if it's Mike Bickle, if it's whomever else, we gotta talk with him, we gotta find out. As Sam Storm says, well, it depends, I don't know him. What does that matter? So the point is, is getting to the point where, listen, if you're gonna hold yourself out to be someone that we should go to and listen to, whatever, you gotta be trustworthy. You have to be trustworthy. And just the case of him impugning me or Jim Osman aside, the very fact that you can see evidence, you see the Cozars information about Mike Todd White, he was saying Mike Todd, Todd White. You're still not convinced. You hear and see evidence about Kevin Zadai. You wrote a forward in his book, and he said all this foolishness, and you still, at some point in time, you gotta call it what it is. At some point in time, and so therefore, you're not trustworthy. Now, I will say this, I will say this, and I'm not necessarily looking forward, but if the opportunity shows up, Corey, we'd like to have a debate between you and Dr. Brown. Even though I don't like formal debates, I'm there for that one. I'll be there for that one. Because rather than me being deferential, I was, listen, this is Dr. Michael Brown. He's 20 years older than I am. I think 20 years, 20 years, 21, 22 years older than I am. I know I'm up there, so he's definitely up there. And so I wanna be deferential. I told you guys, I do treat people differently based on their ages, I do. Just how I was raised, you show respect to people. And so I wanna give him respect, one for his scholarship, his studies and so forth, and just his age, and because he's a human being, and he's a brother in the Lord. I believe that he's probably a brother in the Lord. I believe that he probably is. Don't know for a fact, and so I'll treat him that way. But also, guess what? You can be saved and still not know what you're talking about. You can be misfiring. You can have a gun, but you can misfire. That gun can jam. And I think right now his is jamming because you are beholden to people who you know are out there. If you're not gonna call certain people out and call it what it is, well then how can anybody trust you? When Jesus says, when he warns us about false teachers, and when someone brings a false teacher, a false prophet before you and you defend them, forget us, forget saying that we would never listen to a true prophet. People always wanna say that certain folks like myself would never actually listen to a true prophet. You guys would love to listen to a true false prophet. You'll never notice a true false prophet. You have a hesitancy, which means you don't, you will be the person, a wolf will come up to the pack and you'll think it's a puppy. A wolf will come to the sheep and you'll think, let me pet the, let me pet the little cute little wolf. Meanwhile, he's chewing on the sheep's leg. Oh, he's just a cute little puppy. Oh, he's just rambunctious. That's all. He's hungry. That's all. That's all. That's what you would do. You can't be put in a position to defend the flock. You can't be in a position to defend the faith. Know what you'd rather do is defend the stance of doctrine at all costs. Now, I'm not saying your doctrine is right or wrong. I think it's wrong. I am saying, I'm sorry, I am saying it's wrong. It's wrong. But even in the face of the obvious wolves, think about it, these are obvious wolves. How many of y'all knew that Mike Bickle wasn't any good before this whole, we all knew that. We called it. We called it. But because you knew him. Same thing with Todd White. Same, we don't even talk that much about Todd White and the Benny Hens and Mike Bickle and the Bill Johnson's because they're just that obvious. They are the most obvious. And so you don't even see that. So if you can't see the obvious, what about those that are really, because these, let's be honest guys, these guys aren't sheep and wolf clothing. I mean, I'm sorry, wolves and sheep clothing. No, they're wolves and wolf clothing. We can see them. The wolves and wolf clothing, you won't even call them out. But then how much harder will it be for those who are in actual sheep clothing? How much more difficult will it be for them? You just will not. By the way, Michael LeMay, thank you so much for the super chat. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Someone says, follow the way of love and eagerly desired gifts of this. It does not say, my friend, it does not say desire gifts of the spirit. It does not say that. We've covered that before in the Greek. That's not what it says. If you wanna come back on Friday and we'll discuss it even more so, we will. But, you know, we're gonna do, we're doggone it, doggone it, doggone it. We got two, we got two Cozars here. I don't know what we've done, but God must love, we have two Cozars here. But anyway, for that reason, for that reason, I think that it's best not that he's not a brother. I'm not saying that Michael Brown is not a Christian. I do say that the ink in his pen has run out. I say the ink in his pen has run out and so there's no more need to listen to him. I think that you need to go ahead and pass a torch. I think your scholarship is wacky. No, I didn't say the gifts aren't working anymore. What I said, and I've got the Bible for this, that if someone is going to demonstrate the gifts, see, I'm not a cessationist. Now you might think I'm one, but if someone is going to say that they have to get the prophecy and their prophecies don't come true, well, we don't have that in the Bible. We don't see that. I am what you call a biblical continuationist. Yes, now we went through this the other day. We went through all the different periods in the Bible where gifts were shown at the hands of men. It's only a few times, only a few men, by the way. As a matter of fact, as a matter of fact, let's be honest, if how many of y'all have, and we're almost through here, but how many of y'all have all your fingers and toes? I'm not making fun of you don't, if you had an accident and you lost a finger or toe, I'm not trying to mess with you. But if you got five fingers on each hand and five toes on each foot, you got 10 digits, you can do this exercise. You can do this exercise. What's the exercise? Go ahead and ascribe to each digit someone in the Bible that gifts, that miracles were performed under them. So in other words, you will put, let's say for the thumb, you'll go with Moses and you'll go with Joshua. You'll go a long time for the next time another person has the power of God being displayed in their hands, till you get to lie Joe, lie Joe with a J and lie Shuh with a S. Then you gotta wait another long time. Then you'll have Jesus. Let's not count Jesus as he's God. So let's move him out of the way. Then you got the apostles. Name some more. There's less than 20 people that we can name who we've seen these different miracles and so forth happening. There's less than 20 people in the Bible that we can point to. So gifts at the hands of people is not normative. Amen? That's not normative. What we do know is that when they do happen, when gifts absolutely do happen, we know about it, number one, okay? When prophecies happen, we know it's true prophecy. When it's actual healing, there's actual healing. So because someone wants to not defend, if you find someone that much rather defend their turf and not the text, that's a person that you need to leave alone. Amen?