 Oh, this episode is good to go. This is, again, an issue in human consciousness, isn't it? That we want even our aliens to be reasonable with us. They're allowed to be a bit different, but not too different. It can't be full-on, you know, Harry Potter, magical, weirdness stuff. Oh no, you know, now you've gone a bit too far. Now it's just science fiction, you know, because it's not fitting into a kind of a pre-arranged landscape of what aliens should be like. Did someone else out there in the intelligence have a point for us, for example? You know, that they actually had, you know, some idea of where we might want to go and have left us some kind of clues about what can help the civilization survive for hundreds of thousands of years. It should give us a glimmer of hope. Okay, welcome to Skepticoe where we explore controversial science and spirituality. I'm joined today by Bruce Fenton, one of my absolute favorites. Bruce, as you may remember, has been on the show a couple of times, is the author, along with his wife, Danny, of Exogenesis, Hybrid Humans, A Scientific History of Extraterrestrial Genetic Manipulation. He also has a terrific sub-stack that I subscribe to and it's just, I can't believe he gets the content out, but he does, you check that out, Technosignatures, The Search for Alien Technologies, where he kind of updates folks on a lot of the same topic area that the book was in. So, Bruce, it's great to have you back. Thanks for joining me. I have you prepared now, because I told you I'm going to push you, so I'm glad you're here. Thank you. Thanks for having me back on. It's been a pleasure. It's been a while, so we can catch you up to where things are at and tackle any other topics that you like. A lot in common there. Well, here's where I wanted to kind of redirect it, because I know you can update me on a lot of stuff that's going on. It is of super interest, and people can go to your sub-stack and tell me all about it. What I want to kind of take us to is, I think the book is super important. I think the sub-stack is super important, but I do question a little bit the way that you're going about it. I just had this guy on recently, a couple of weeks ago, Jason Giorgiani, and he's really a philosopher, but he wrote this book, Closer Encounters, and he's all worked up about Mars, you know, which he should be, anybody should be. You know, you talk about technosignatures all over the place in the images, you know, you go to Brandenburg's, Nuclear Weapons Technosignature, great. You got remote viewing, which isn't really a technosignature, but kind of is in a way. So there's plenty of reasons to be worked up about Mars, but here's the big thing about Mars, right? Is we know two things about Mars, and the exogenesis with Mars. Number one, we know that they're lying their ass off, right? Cause they got, they have hundreds of thousands of high resolution images that they just, they just won't let them out. And a couple of them snuck out like 40 years ago and they go, oh no, no, those aren't there. It's such an obvious gross lie that no one even pretends anymore to say, hey, show me those images, would you show me? You can look at a license plate from a satellite, but you won't show me that base, you won't show me that pyramid. So we know that they're lying, and we know that they're lying cause they know something, you know? Or at least we should reasonably assume that. So I take the same thing with you, man. I take the same thing with what you're doing. Do you really think Seth at SETI and Avi Loeb at Harvard? Do you really think you need to pump those guys with one more study, with more data, that then all the wake up and go, oh, Bruce, yeah, now I do get it. I see all the evidence that you've already piled up, all the NASA papers that you've referenced, all the tech-tight samples. Is that really gonna carry the day? Isn't it more likely that they on some, maybe not completely, but they know, they know something. What do you think? You don't understand where I'm going completely. What do you think about that? Sure. Yeah, I mean, I think if you look at, say, some of the work that's being done by, one stands out to me is like Professor Milton Wainwright and his work, where he was basically collecting organisms in the upper atmosphere, which were like, not related to any organisms we know of, right? So you'd say, sounds like he's found aliens, you know? And he was reaching out to NASA and reaching out to other scientific bodies, right? You know, he's a accredited, legitimate academic scientist, he's a biologist. And he said, he wasn't even getting replies from NASA. So, you know, and he's like, can you check my results? Can you, you know, do the science, check what I've got, does it add up? And you've got to think about that. I mean, this guy, you know, he's got, I don't have those, you know, he's got the credentials. He's putting it across to people you'd expect him to check it with. And then he's getting nothing. So there's definitely something very wrong, right? So like you said, I mean, does it take someone else finding the same thing? I mean, if that guy has already found what certainly looks like organisms, isn't that life from space? And on top of that, this is the same scientist who, you might have seen this, I mean, I've talked about it, but he's the guy who had a detector that a small metal sphere impacted into it. And there was like organic goo coming out, right? So he's like, you know, is there some kind of panspermia seed, you know, like an artificial technology? So these are like wild things that have already been found. Like you're quite right that, you know, those things should have made a bigger impact in the human psyche than they have. And they should reverberate it out into the scientific community more than they did. And he has kind of taught them that a little bit himself. He said that, you know, he was shocked when he first came into the topic because he collaborated with Wickram Singer, you know, obviously the main panspermia guy. And when he went to do that, he was expecting to see almost like everyone would be excited to do that work. And then he realized that, no, nobody wanted to do it. It was toxic. And that they didn't want any connection to alien topics. And that it was completely the opposite. And that people were scared to lose their funding. They were scared of being made to look silly. And that, you know, rather than being exciting topic, it was considered, yeah, like, you know, don't go there, you'll ruin your career. So how do you want to look at it? Things are broken because if it's like that, where, you know, a serious scientist thinks, well, this is great work, you know, we can do this. And then they realized nobody wants to do it because they're all kind of scared. Then whether we call that like a conspiracy or a problem, you know, in our minds, you know, either way, something's wrong. So, yeah, it's true that I don't know that you can just say, keep stacking up papers. I think it's got more to do with human psychology than the evidence at this point, isn't it? You know, it's like, well, if someone doesn't look at evidence as well, what good is, you know, that you have that problem that you could have a spaceship. If I turn away and I'm not looking at it, I don't see a spaceship about it. I don't see it, you know, because I don't want to. I don't want this problem. Then that is completely different. You know, that's a situation that I'm not sure how we resolve other than getting broader public support and public interest. I think you're right in that. It's very difficult to say, you know, the academic community is all suddenly changed and say, hey, let's seriously consider, you know, what we have here from these various different researchers who over the years have come up with stuff, you know, even the guy that did the Mars life experiment, he spent his whole life to his last dying day saying that they found life on Mars and he was being kind of angrily, you know, shared at conferences and ignored and they never went back to check his results. You know, they never sent another experiment back to check it was like, how dare you find life? You know, that's not what we meant to do. You know, it says really wacky when people sort of stop and think about this. You know, these are people that were respected but as soon as they do the wrong thing, suddenly they're a crank, you know, because they found something. Oh, no, you're not supposed to actually find stuff. You know, it's really, I think I don't know if the public really get it, Alex. Do you know what I mean that it's like that? Well, they don't. I mean, because it's so true. It's like axiomatic at this point on every topic that, you know, it's the red pilled on everything becomes the thing. And, you know, it turns into a discussion of why people believe weird things which is interesting for a while and then quickly loses its interest. I'll tell you where I wanted to direct your focus because I think it's a topic that really needs to be addressed by you. And that is kind of leaning into the wackiness of the Valerie Burrow, Alcheringa channeled material. And so if people don't know, here's where I'd like you to kind of take us. You have always acknowledged, I mean, very upfront say, hey, you know, there here is this and I'm going to set this over aside because some of the stuff she says does sound very wacky in this kind of channeled way. But like the other data point, I guess I can't, the other data point I would bring into that is like, like Andrea Padraic, of course. I mean, Padraic is at the time that he starts channeling the nine. He is a highly respected professor and medical doctor and teacher at Northwestern. He's highly respected by the government, the army, the CIA. He's like the top, top, top guy, right? And he gets into this channeling of the nine who was this council, it sounds a lot like Valerie Burrow, even though people can pick on poor Valerie Burrow because she's this star woman and stuff like that. What it raises is the whole issue of what it's like speaking with the whisper of the spirits and how dangerous that is. And that's something you have explored too in other things. But I think we need to unpack that kind of scientifically if you will and say, okay, because what you've done, and I want you to kind of tell the story, what you've done is said, okay, might there be anything in there that is useful from a scientific perspective and how would I go about doing that? So what I'd say is the next step and what I wanna do with you today if we can is lean into it even more rather than compartmentalize and say, okay, it's wacky, but it's over there and I'm gonna go forward with my stuff. What if we really went there all the way and tried to understand the wackiness and why it's wacky and what other stuff we rely on that's wacky and how misinformation is wacky in the same way and it's being used and there's a whole bunch of stuff there, but I appreciate you letting me do that long setup because I want you to understand where I'm going with it. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I think this is again, an issue in human consciousness and that we want even our aliens to be reasonable with us. You know, that they're supposed to be behaving kind of reasonably. They're allowed to be a bit different, you know, like some guy from a far off land is a bit different. No, with a different language and culture, but not too different. It can't be full on, you know, Harry Potter, magical weirdness stuff. Oh no, you know, now you've gone a bit too far. Now it's just science fiction, you know, because it's not fitting into a kind of a pre-arranged landscape of what aliens should be like. Yeah, and also sometimes that's because actually they're too similar, you know, it can be that they're behaving in an extraordinary way or it could be that they're too similar. I mean, say, well, that's a very human thinking. You must be just projecting human thinking onto the aliens. So I think in a way you can't totally win, you know, because you always have some element that will be seen as being, well, no, that's kooky. So even if it's real. And I think that's your way of starting with that problem that there's an immediate, there's a pre-existing filter that's a bit like the issue they had. They did a project to look at series to see and they were running some AI to see if they could see anomalies on the dwarf planet series, right? And the AI picked up geometry and found this, what was a triangle, a circle and a square. And some people may have seen this in the study. And so, and then they got some people to volunteer and look as well. And the people also saw geometry, right? And so they thought, well, clearly then the AI is being influenced by the human programmers to see stuff that isn't there in the way that humans do. So, you know, it's like, you can't win, can you? Because like you pick up something, well, that must be because the AI is just as stupid as we are, right? So that bias, instead of saying, maybe there's something here. Let's look closer, you know, maybe we found something extraordinary. It's like, no, well, that can't be it. You know, we've had to try to normalize that result away somehow. And that seems to be, like as we touched on, that's across the board, you know, whether it's coming from space, whether it's series, whether it's paranormal stuff, connecting with alien contact. I don't know if there's anything that really fits through the shape-hole that we're being given for alien intelligence. Let me interject there, because that's really well said. And I love your point about, can't be too different, can't be too similar. At the same time, you know what you've done and I want you to kind of retrace those steps for people so they understand, because I know I've just kind of thrown out Valerie Burrow and Eltingen, 90% of people are like have no clue what I'm even talking about. So, you know, what you picked up out of that story and then also, then we'll talk about the stuff about that story that would probably set people to going like, wait a minute, dinosaurs were, you know, I mean, there's some kind of wackiness to it too. So lay the basic groundwork, you know, you're there in Australia, you run across this, and then, you know, you start piling up evidence to support certain parts of it. That whole process, you know, how were you even able to go, you knew this was the third rail when you touched it, you know, but why did you even go there? I mean, I guess it would be one question. Yeah, no, that's fair. I mean, I've touched on it a little bit, I've seen in the book that, you know, this came out of a longer kind of back story of my life that particularly going back to around 2002, when I was quite interested in and experimenting in shamanic practices, mediumship, you know, psychic development, you know, all of that field, I'd got quite sort of drawn into. This is at the time I was a banker in Bank National Paris in London, and you know, that's not a life normally that fits very well with that. You know, so obviously, again, with preconceptions, people wouldn't expect you to be involved with those things, right? Because they're very materialist kind of role, but I did get involved with those things. And one of the experiences I had working with the shamanic practice was being in an altered state where one of the kind of visionary experiences that I had was suddenly being like on a craft, flying towards Earth, an experience of being as though I was the being who was piloting this craft, you know, this tall humanoid in this kind of tight fitting blue jumpsuit and an awareness that this craft is flying away from a disaster in space where a lot of allies have been destroyed and that there's some pursuit. And that was experience I had. Now, I had no context for that. It's just the same as, I guess, millions of other people who've had strange experiences, you know, meditation, shaman, maybe have no context. They just have these extraordinary experiences. So that was kind of filed away in the, well, that was weird, you know. But then, yeah, many years later when I encountered this story, which is actually because I was collaborating on a book called Ancient Aliens in Australia in 2013, which is a collaboration with Stephen and Evan Strong, Australian researchers who had been, they were involved with some stuff to do with a backstory, Aboriginal out of Australia theory and also contact with beings from the Pleiades kind of stories. So we had had some experiences ourselves, particularly Daniela, which we've written about in the past and talked about where she'd had kind of contact experiences and these intelligences claimed to contact with the Pleiades. So, you know, there was an overlap. So someone connected us with them. And whilst working on that book, they made us aware of Valerie Barrow in her book and how that seemed to tie in, you know, this story of entities from that star cluster coming here. And when I read it, I realized that, you know, that scene with the ship destroyed in space and people haven't heard of this. There's this description of a large craft destroyed in orbit, a few smaller craft coming down, you know, racing towards Earth with pursuit behind them, you know, some of them being destroyed and this awareness, obviously this disaster. And so, you know, of course, suddenly, you know, those neurons light up in the back of your brain, they've been storing that weird experience for, you know, 10 years and realizing that, God, that sounds similar, doesn't it? That sounds absolutely like why I was kind of showing this little snippet of. That's what made me take more note than just saying, oh, that's a weird story. It's nothing to do with me, you know, I've got other things to do. Instead, I was very intrigued to then follow up and see why did I have that experience? Why am I now connecting with somebody that's describing, you know, the very, very similar scenario? So when you put that in the combine that with the fact that my wife has had some kind of contacts and I've had, you know, Lesso, she's a very gifted intuitive and shaman. So her experiences are more profound than mine, but I've also had some levels of, I say, picking up information intuitively. So, you know, we both had our experiences, which makes you more open to the possibility, of course, of some of these other strange things that you hear. And so when I combine my experiences, her experiences, the fit of the information and the size and scale of some of the events described, you know, you put that in, I was thinking, well, if this is real, which I feel it might be, these events, at least a few of them on such a big scale, that you could potentially look to see if they are falsifiable. And then on top of that, you know, I don't need to go out publicly and do this initially, you know, I could just quietly look at it and see if there's anything to it, right? Because if I found that there wasn't, then you just, well, move on with your life and other things, even if secretly you believe it, right? You don't need to put it out there. So I kind of set the kind of the framework that, you know, unless there was enough there that I could argue that case with a skeptic, you know, then I would probably keep it to myself. So that's how it came about. And obviously at some stage, I decided that there was enough support for this story, that it was worth putting it out there and being willing to maybe take a few tomatoes in the face from skeptics and debunkers and all the rest of it, but sort of stand your ground and argue that, you know, there is support for this. I think it's real. Well, and I think that's what your work has been about in terms of making that case in a very rigorous way. And people can go listen to the prior interviews. That's what we talk about. Watch your numerous, read your book. Read your book, make the case, see if you agree. And then in particular, what's super great about the substack is it's kind of updating us. And you seem like a very fair, honest researcher in that you're just putting out. I feel like if something came out that severely contradicted your thing, that would be up there too, because you do deal with, you know, it's not all kind of one-sided, but so much of it comes up in alignment with some of the stuff that you've said. So with that as a background, and I appreciate you laying that out, now I wanna lean into Valerie's channeling experience, because I think that's a real limitation that we have in this community, if you'll allow that, is we want to kind of, you know, again, bracket stuff, like, oh, that's channeled material, just throw all that away. Or it's channeled material, but it's from a really, really good source. Let's take it all. And I like where you started with, too similar, too different. And the other thing that I guess I'd wanna apply to it is storytelling and how storytelling and dream interpretation and psychic readings are all different examples of where we get into this kind of imaginal mixed with the real kind of stuff that we deal with and sort through all the time. And I wonder if we shouldn't try and apply that same lens to some of this channeled material. I feel like that's what you've done. I feel like you need to kind of take the next step and say, what are the limitations of that? Where can I kind of draw the line and say, gosh, you know, when I do run across stuff where Valerie does seem to be kind of in the weeds a little bit and the lion being who says that, you know, it's gonna do this or that, you know, these reptilians are so bad except this one who's really smart, nice and kind of came on our team and it sounds real right out of, but... So leaning into it, how are you processing like what information to follow up on, what information not to follow up on and how to understand why some of it may be more imaginal? Sure. Yeah, I mean, one of the things I think, you know, if you have a fairly wide awareness of, say, the UFO topic, the alien, you know, ancient aliens or contactee topics and generally, let's say, the psychical and new age and consciousness topic. So if you have a diverse awareness of all those fields, one of the things you know is that there's a lot of horseshit in there, you know, like spread out across these fields. There's a lot of horseshit. And also in many cases, that's where someone has had a strange experience and they feel that they were given information. You know, we can say whether that was from internally or an alien, ghost, whatever, but they feel that they were given some kind of profound message and later on, it's turned out that either all of that was rubbish or some significant part of it and that they've been kind of hoodwinked and there's a lot of cases where people's lives have been ruined, absolutely destroyed like that. But they've gone out and they've said, you know, the UFOs are landing on the mountain and they've told everyone or they've sold their house and, you know, they've gone all in because it's so convincing. Because sometimes, you know, you'll get something that is real. Like for example, you know, they say there's an earthquake next Thursday and that's the beginning and then the earthquake happens. So then these people go all in. And I think that's the problem with these kind of fields is that, you know, it's, they're so extraordinary. And if you're compelled with it, something brings you into it. You can slide very quickly down that rabbit hole and it may not be going where you think it is. So you do have to be aware that, you know, that the human mind can conjure up parts of these things, even if you are getting some kind of legitimate information. As you said, you could have a part that's imaginable to this and also it's possible there are intelligences that do provide some information, but for their own reasons are also giving some kind of propaganda or disinformation to you, right? In the same way that humans do, right? To each other. We can see that we live in a time where of ceaseless propaganda and misinformation and disinformation and half truths. So, I mean, you have to apply that to kind of the paranormal, the aliens fields, the UFO topic, all of that. And, you know, I've had an experience with the events that my wife and I had with what was going with us back in 2012 and 13, but we had information that came to us. And some of that now I would say was, you know, either they didn't really know what was going on or that they were wrong or whatever, but I definitely went a bit more all in than I probably should have without more critical analysis. And that in many ways I now look at as having been preparation to do this because I think otherwise I probably would have just gone straight all in on this and not really have been as critical with it as I am, but because having, just having if you've been burned once, right? Then you're not going to stick your hand in that fire a second time, you know, not without some glove on, some kind of protection from knowing that it can hurt. So I think that's perhaps why I, you know, in some ways I'm quite cautious. And you're right saying that, you know, sometimes I'm cautious how I prefer information out or what I will go all in on or not saying, I believe everything's true from this because there's a long history of that kind of result from just believing a ghost or an alien or your inner self or whatever and then finding that that's a half true and just enough rope to hang yourself with is given, you know? So that's kind of how I frame this. Cause I look at it and I can say that, you know, there's this enormous kind of body of information, this larger story, you know, with 40 odd people involved, Alex, you know, so it's an enormous case really. There's, you know, when I spoke to Valerie and I met her at her home, she said, you know, there was, yeah, I think it was like 45 people or something like that who over the course of the few years when she was really heavily kind of involved with what was happening that they would either come to her house kind of spontaneously or sometimes it was clients for her regression, you know, business. Sometimes people that she didn't know in a car park, someone stopped and started telling her that it had all these memories, people that she showed pictures of the ghosted glyphs to sometimes they would just start and they remembered this story. So it was a really weird kind of backstory, but there's, you know, 40 odd people. So that's massive and complex already. Cause you've got all those people and what was going on in their heads and their lives and, you know, were they telling the truth? And, you know, to put that on top of it and then a reincarnational aspect that, you know, people say they remember living in that life, not just that they're seeing visions of an alien spaceship but they're experiencing it as having lived in that time either as an alien or as an early hominin or as, you know, either side of the aliens, they're friendly and bad aliens. That adds two layers of complex, you know, reincarnation, which again is controversial. And then on top of that, the idea that, you know, multiple aliens involved here, you know, you can see how it's spanning out. And then you've got more and more people, more complexity, more areas that are completely unprovable or not even very easy to support at all. Lots of people I don't know, but I've never met involved in that backstory. Many of whom I passed on, you know, including Valerie unfortunately has passed on. So, you know, Jerry, the other, I can see the other main person in this story, Jerry, the Aboriginal elder, you know, he's passed on. So it's not like I can go to them now and, you know, get more directly from their perspective. I don't know who all these other people are. So there's a lot of kind of limitations around that, right? So you got to work with what you've got. And that's what I want to do. Because the amazing thing and the really wonderful thing about what you bring to this is you do have this scientific rigor and you do have the means to understand the science that a lot of people in this field don't. So you speak with authority because you have read the stuff and getting. So what I thought would be interesting is, again, let's lean into the accounts of this experience of these 40 people who brought through the Alcheringa stuff and let's go through the three major kind of components of your findings. And then I'd like you to kind of reexamine the story and see where you think it might go, where you think there might be dead ends to the story or where it probably shouldn't go, you know? So we could even start with the ship, you know? So you're finding these, you have this amazing body of research, of data that you put together on these astral tectites and people can go look at that. So what else is there in the channeled material that we would wanna pursue further and what might we, you know, kind of call into question? Like one of the things always seemed kind of strange to me is, you know, they keep stressing that the ship is defenseless, the ship is defenseless, it's just an, and at the same time, there's the police force that comes in and bombards the planet, it doesn't really add up totally or that they're on this mission and it's gonna take a long time to get there. Why does it take such a long time? How long is that time? And they're all living this kind of communal lifestyle and kind of stuff. A lot of it seems like to use your thing a little bit too similar, a little bit too much like these other stories we've heard. So my, the bigger question if I can pull back to it again is, what part of the craft do you feel compelled to pursue further and pull into your deep dive from a scientific standpoint and what part do you wanna leave behind? Yeah, I mean, sure, I mean, I mean, just a quick, for people aren't too, I mean, you know, this starts off with a very extraordinary event, this, the trip to Gosford, you know, where you've got an Aboriginal elder has turned up at Valerie's house after she's received this ancient artifact of Turinga. You know, now she's got an Aboriginal elder knocking on the door. So a strange synchronous kind of situation. He suggests going to Gosford where there's an Aboriginal sacred site, there's also these controversial Egyptian-like hieroglyphs the whole of the controversy of whether those are old or not. But he's suggesting to go there and so they go there and he has a time slip and a time slip, yeah, another weird wacky kind of claim that most people would dismiss right away. But at the same time, you and I know there is accounts of these out there in the paranormal world where people suddenly find that they're in the same place but in a different time. I mean, there's a couple of famous cases in there with the two teachers in the Garden of Versailles where suddenly they see all these people in costumes and they think that they're a kind of reproduction and then they walk through this mist and they're back to the park. So they have that kind of experience but now they're seeing a crashed craft down in the water. They're remembering being these visitors. One of them remembers being the pilot of the crashed craft and they get this information. So it begins with highly extraordinary kind of plunging straight over the edge of the cliff weirdness, right? It's not as simple as say, someone sat and meditated and they've got this download to hear about. This is like it's a much more full-on straight away there's a barrier to people because they can probably take the download stuff easier than the time slip and feeling like that was your past life. That's some really hardcore weird right at the get-go, right? And then so then they obviously see this craft, this giant, they're told it's a giant living ship that's been grown on a planet somewhere. It's not made, it's grown and imbued with consciousness. So it's alive. So I mean, it's very quickly expanding into really quite extraordinary and for the time quite advanced sci-fi kind of concepts, right? That, you know, 3D printed living silica ships that are, you know, moon-sized flying around out there. I mean, now, yeah, the cutting edge of science is kind of talking about that stuff, right, Alex? You know, but at the time you're thinking, if this is just, you know, like a new age lady sitting in her house imagining stuff, I'll give her some credit because even those concepts alone, like are amazing where most people would never think of that kind of richness of detail, you know? That even the ship is not made, you know, it's grown from silica in some, you know, matrix and then it's imbued with a living consciousness. Why would you go there? Like, why not just say there was a spaceship and it came here and, you know, so those kind of details as well, I was fine. I think that in itself is compelling because it does make you wonder, you know, if someone who has no experience of writing science fiction and yet they're coming up and it's not a scientist, they're not, I know for me, it's not someone who's reading New Scientist or something, right? So this isn't someone who you'd expect to have these concepts, especially back in like the early 90s and stuff, you know? So that alone is kind of, I think should make people just scratch their head a little bit, you know, because they can look at values of life and say, well, this is a person who's going to, you know, ashrams in India and doing a meditation and talking about star people. But where is she getting these concepts that we're now looking at the forefront of science as to how we expect advanced intelligence is to actually behave and the kind of technologies we think they probably would have. Can I ask a specific question about that? Because I think that's awesome. I love where you took that. This is one of the hottest issues right now because of the advancement, the huge leap we've made in AI. So the question is, is AI going to be imbued with consciousness? How would that come about? Would it be from some external source? Would it organically just kind of emerge in it? All the rest, is it even possible? Again, you are like super plugged into so many different topics. Where do you think we're going to wind up in five or 10 years in terms of testing out that idea? Yeah, I mean, firstly, I know that, you know, looking at the work of, I'm trying to think of the, ladies and gentlemen, there's an excellent essay called Alien Minds. Like, I don't know if you've ever read this, but basically it's an analysis of kind of what you might expect of alien technologies, you know, particularly there's a look at silica as an alternative to kind of carbon for life forms and how you can essentially with silica, you can have enormous kind of constructs of silica, right? So you can have like a moon-sized silica, like computing technology. So in other words, like a super brain, right? Because we're limited by the size of our head, right? You know, a silica state kind of AI is not limited in its size. So the processing power can be unbelievable. So if we start with that, okay, so it can do amazing things. Now, is it, that doesn't necessarily mean it's self-aware consciousness, right? And it's truly alive. But you can certainly start with the premise that if you have a big enough silica construct that it would be able to compute, you know, things that we can't imagine thinking through and you could do that in seconds, you know, split seconds. And oh yes, I understand, you know, the motion of four-star systems and how the stars would, you know, whereas we would probably spend, you know, years and years and years of top minds trying to understand the dynamics of that star system, right? A brain that size, a computer that size would do that probably in seconds. So that doesn't mean computing power isn't the same as self-referential consciousness and an awareness, right, of self and who I am. So I tend to lean more towards the feeling that we live in a conscious universe. And if you build systems that are sufficiently complex to allow that consciousness to be imbued into it, that that is almost like if you build it, it will come. That I think that the consciousness is arising into the machine, rather than from the machine because you're creating something that will allow non-physical consciousnesses, right? I believe, I suspect that it could then inhabit that. Because if the universe itself is conscious, you know, that kind of view, which, you know, many people take, I suspect that that is the case. I think that fundamentally in the beginning there was already consciousness. No matter what that universe looked like in that first second, you know, I believe it had consciousness in it and that it has arisen into us, the animals and probably, you know, I don't know, crystal matrices in the ground and stuff and things that we don't recognize as life, but there's consciousness out there in all sorts of strange forms I imagine in strange forms, right? That's my personal feeling. Now, of course, I can't support that because one of the problems we have, of course, is we only have the reference of one planet. So we can say what's happened on Earth and that's how things have developed. But we don't really know. I mean, there's questions now of what is life? And as I say, we're at life, L-Y-F, the idea that there's life that's not the way we think of it. And again, that could be something like living crystal matrices in a moon somewhere, but we wouldn't look at it and think it was alive, but technically it is alive, right? So I do wonder about it. I think that it's more likely that, yeah, if you build a computer system complex enough that allows for a brain-like experience that that may then allow something to enter into the system that becomes life, right? So that's my personal feeling. Great, and I think it's kind of more than personal. I think you back it up in a really great way. And we're gonna move on to genetics in a minute in genetic engineering, but I think it's interesting and you point this out in exogenesis and in, I think in the recent, one of the recent technosignatures, sub-stack articles, but that there's a parallel that, you know, build it and they will come relates to consciousness too, you know, in terms of build that's sophisticated enough and then consciousness comes in. The one thing I wanted to backtrack and talk about is the time slip because I think you're completely right. I think this is a back to the future with or without the DeLorean kind of thing, uncomfortable science fiction, where do we go with it? But at the same time, we should be so much more comfortable with this than we are. And people have pre-cognitive dreams all the time. I mean, just go talk to your extended family and you will certainly find accounts of somebody who had a pre-cognitive dream. That is a time slip, right? They are traveling in time. And we all realize that we travel back in time kind of more frequently if we look at those cases. So it's interesting again, like you were saying before of like, you know, I don't see a spaceship. I don't see any time slips. No, I'm anchored into this time space continuum. Okay, I don't wanna go too far. You brought up a great one on the ship, right? One place that Valerie's account more broadly than Valerie, because like you said, there's other people that are kind of involved in bringing this forward. Anything else about the ship, the technology associated with that, that you see on your horizon that could be brought in from that story and turned into something more scientific? Yeah, I mean, there's somewhat limited details. So in terms of the ship in specifics, we know that there's, they kind of obviously had beings on board and that so there wasn't just a living ship, that there was some kind of biology on board beings and apparently plants and all sorts of the things. So there's additional aspects to it, not just a robot flying around. I guess one of the things that interests me is the possibility that someone with the knowledge of engineering and chemistry is that could look at the components in tectites and say, well, why would you build a ship from that? Or why would you build an AI structure using those chemicals, this much silica, this much aluminium, this much of phosphorus and magnesium? So that's an angle that I would really love to explore with someone who has that knowledge, perhaps a scientist in that world of building spaceships or of building computer systems to them to actually kind of reverse the thinking of an intelligence that would use those specific components. Because of course, I don't have that knowledge. I mean, I've looked curiously and seen that I think with some of the NASA spaceships, certainly there's an overlap with the chemicals that have been found in these tectites. But obviously it's not gonna be absolutely the same because it's a very different kind of technology. But if somebody does have that kind of knowledge, he's in the cutting edge of this field, could they then look at that and go back through it and say, well, yeah, I can see why you'd wanna be putting aluminium and with phosphorus in the shell of this craft. I can see why that would help with computer processing or of course the problem we have is that this is all mixed, it melted, so it's come down as glass. So it's not like a chunk of the frame where you can hold up and say, well, yeah, that's obviously part of a computer panel or something, which of course is the ideal. The other side, which I've touched on a bit in the subject, is there is the potential that maybe parts of this craft went down into Antarctica. So now I have no way to go there and do that. But obviously there are satellite imaging and there is stuff going on down there. A lot of the time, very secretive, weird stuff going on down there and so that spawned lots of conspiracies, because we don't know really what all the research is down Antarctica. But there is the potential, I think, to explore whether or not there are larger unmelted pieces of the frame that have gone into the ice or somewhere else along that debris path that maybe somebody out there somewhere has got a chunk of something weird in their house that they found out walking in the outback and they've just put it in the house. Because again, I know that kind of stuff happens, right? People find artifacts, they find things and they become family heirlooms or whatever, but they don't know what to do with it. But there might well be that someone does have something like that, a piece that broke the atmosphere and he came down in a relatively unchecked trace. The more the awareness there is of this narrative, the more chance we have somebody who reaches out and says, well, I know something or I've had an additional experience or a scientist who says, well, I looked at what you were doing and you know what, I don't want my name on it. But I think that that makes sense, some of that. I think that there is room for those kind of additions to this story, but you do need some people with additional knowledge bases who could come in and help. And I think that is definitely where we're kind of keen to take this project, is to try and expand and to talk to other people that have expertise in areas that relate to this and who could maybe offer insights either anonymously or with their face on the topic, which I understand that I don't have an academic career to lose. So I don't have to think of that. I mean, I would hope other people didn't feel that they had to lose their career just to talk to us, right? But that is definitely another angle to it. Also, of course, there's the claim that this ship, one of these smaller ships went down in the waters off of Gosford. Is that there? Could someone go out with ground, what's it called, radar systems on a boat and skim up and down there and find an anomaly buried in the mud there, right? Because I mean, if we found like a disc shaped anomaly sitting under 50 meters of mud or something out in the bay just off from where the Gosford glyphs are, well, that would be an amazing result. And I've had people say, maybe you should get top remote viewers and people are on that and see, do they feel that that is still there? Because if this material is fairly impervious to time, this silica type material, which I think can last almost indefinitely. So it's potentially there, just needs enough people to be interested to kind of fund that. Or someone who already has that technology to just go up and down the bay and just see if it's there. I don't know how easy it is because I can't do it, right? That doesn't mean other people can't do it. And particularly if the information is engaging enough for people to feel it's real, then it's some of the most important work you could do in your life. If you have that boat already, why not kind of think this is where for go? We've done searches for less interesting things with less results. I mean, a Loch Ness monster. Look, people have done that plenty of times, haven't they? They've gone up and down the lock, you know, with all kinds of technology, with submarines, you know, lots of expeditions for that, right? I think looking for a crashed alien spaceship is no wackier than looking for a giant plesiosaur in a Scottish lake. So, and the results, if you found it, are far more meaningful than finding that plesiosaur, right? So, yeah, that's another angle. So there are things that can be done and that they may only exclude the reality of those things, but that's also scientific work, right? Is that sometimes you get a null result, but you exclude that possibility and say, well, we did it, you know, and I'm sure it would have a lot of public interest if you said we're looking for a crashed alien spaceship in the bay. I mean, I imagine that that's gonna have some benefits but whoever does that, right? You just advertise their boat company or whatever it is, you know? I think there's a lot of potential in those kinds of areas. Yeah, I think there are people out there that have skill sets and have information, maybe have artifacts that we can, you know, eventually engage with and find out maybe a bit more on that side of it. And again, yeah, like the ship side of it, I think it just needs some other people with perspectives that I don't necessarily appreciate in terms of building these technologies, you know, because I'm obviously self-educating as much as I can, but like any of us, you know, you can only learn so much as one person, you know, trying to learn multiple disciplines for a topic that's really ranges across, you know, computer technologies, aerospace, ancient history, genetics, archeology, you know, that there's, I'm a reasonably smart person, but I don't think anyone can know, you know, the full breadth of all those topics, right? That you do need these people in these different disciplines. So that's awesome. I mean, you really delivered more than I could imagine on that. What if we moved over to the genetic component? So first, recap where you took that from the channel material, what you found in just a very high-level thing, and then where that might go. Sure, yeah, so part of the information that was given is this, well, certainly the story tells this tale that after the destruction of this craft, that some survivors, a few survivors come to Earth, and that these beings realize they can't survive. Now, I should just clarify here, there's another bit that I find is quite logical and fascinating is that this is actually, they were intending to modify themselves using these genetic technologies, but the loss of their craft leaves them only partially adapted to this environment. And I find that's kind of intriguing itself because you rarely hear that kind of detail in people's stories, like the aliens are just walking around on Earth, you know, it's like, how? How are they doing this? You know, why isn't there problems with the air and gravity and, you know, and there's a lot of these claims out there but hang on, if they have the technologies to modify themselves to other environments, that makes good sense. I mean, NASA is now looking at that, they're looking at the idea of future astronauts being modified for space environments. So this stuff, again, it sounds at first wacky, but we're gonna, we're doing that, you know, we're gonna do that. And so in that account, they say, well, we can't survive, you know, the air is affecting them, the bacteria is affecting them, sunlight is affecting them. So we can't colonize this planet. And this idea originally is that they, you know, be handed over the planet from a more negative group that they're gonna change this to being part of a more, I suppose we look at it as a more benevolent civilization and a more malevolent civilization. And so they intend to then instead of, well, I put it as my last subject, is rather colonizing the planet, it's colonized the hominins that live here. Let me interject something there. Cause like this is interesting in the way that it relates back to the ship and the AI and allowing consciousness to come forth. And no one talks about this enough cause everyone just vapor locks on the spiritual thing and on the God thing. And I just had this terrific interview with Mary Rodblow and I keep hammering on this issue, does ET have an NDE? You know, does ET have a life review? Is ET going through the same kind of rebirth, rebirth, learning, growing kind of thing? What you're saying can only really be interpreted through that lens, right? So these people are these beings, these intelligences see it as the moral imperative to bring about some form through which consciousness can continue to flow. And that is not a technical nuts and bolts thing as we would understand it, it could be, but it sure sounds more like this kind of spiritual flowering of God's love kind of thing without going too far there. So do you wanna talk about that for a minute? Because I think that's right beneath the surface, but we don't often talk about what that means. You talked about with the craft, but here they are kind of doing the same thing with their genetic program. Yeah, I mean, look, in a way, you can almost sum up these beings as like space evangelists, right? So I mean, it's not just about an expanding galactic empire, cold robots needing more materials or something like that, which are kind of familiar means in the sci-fi kind of world, but this is a bit unfamiliar. It's more about a religiosity and metaphysics and spirituality that seem to be a part of the framework of this collective of intelligences out there, that they have this interest in the idea of elevating the cosmos, so that it's more like the way that they think it should be rather than just that, yeah, we're gonna go out and we're just gonna colonize these planets. There's an interest, they could just colonize any old empty planet, right? I mean, it's a big galaxy. So if it was just about to expand in your territories, there's not any particular focus on coming in that way, right? So it's not that. So they have this whole plan, this idea that it's important that life on this planet is heading in a certain direction towards a certain kind of spiritual perspective and that they want things to have the framework here to be one that allows an elevating of consciousness and allows beings to be free and to experience these higher states. It seems to me that's kind of their mindset is that beings that currently hold the planet at that time are very unlike that and believe in slavery and oppression and using genetic technologies for kind of kind of callous and cold reasons and that they don't agree with that. There's kind of ideological differences. So they are kind of almost evangelizing to these other groups. They want them to stop doing that. They've made a negotiation to hand over the planet and allow them to bring it back into the fold of this other mindset. And then this conflict arises where there's kind of a betrayal and ships destroyed. So I mean, to me, it's almost more like warring religious systems than it is simply empires building, you know, through the darkness of space. And that's kind of an unexpected, I think aspect for people, they don't like to think about, then what is the religious views of an alien race and stuff like that. Those are kind of concepts that you, I guess you don't have a lot of, except when really cerebral science fiction, perhaps where people go down that route of, you know, what do the aliens really want out of the universe? Because I mean, we don't consider that enough, I think, because, you know, if they have a perspective and they think it's the best, in the same way that we have religions who believe that they have the best way of living, the best ideas, the way you should do everything, right? That we don't tend to put that onto aliens, you know, but we can't just assume that they don't also have some drives like that. Because those are drives that have made us expand and do all sorts of things. So why couldn't those expand, you know, spend empires as well? True. And you're also spinning it very appropriately in one direction, which is almost like a kind of gnastic kind of way. The other is that there's a moral imperative that they are in line with, right? So there is ultimately a good and a bad, there is choice, there is free will, but ultimately ascending to that higher vibration of is not only preferred because it doesn't always turn out that way, but that is like go to the data I would throw on the table is a near-death experience and study it however you want and go to the best researchers who say, okay, give it to me straight, no religiosity, no bullshit, you know, just what is it? Well, 90% of the people come back and say it's about love, number one. It's not about a tunnel, dead relatives, and it's about love, which aligns perfectly with what these folks are saying. So that also could be another way to understand this is that the moral imperative is love, expansion, growth, self-development, learning, and there is this other aspect which kind of creeps in that is the control, dominate, fear, hoard kind of thing and both exist, but one is really the direction. So that's the other way to understand this too rather than the Christians going and fighting the Muslims in the crusades. It's like, no, they're really tuning into what we all learned when we were five years old in kindergarten and that is we know the difference between right and wrong and if we do right and it doesn't always seem like what we want at the time, but in the long run it's really what we do want, which I think, so I'm not saying that has to be true, but I'm saying that is to me a reasonable overlay on this story as you pointed out. Well, yeah, I mean, and you're quite right to touch on say the NDE into these experiences because look, if all conscious beings out there, you know, wherever they are, if we assume that there's lots of conscious beings out there in this unfathomably huge universe, if they all also experience life, some sort of manifesting of birth, whatever we call it for them, some kind of period of growth in life and a period of where they are dying and death and that they have looked into that same darkness and that some of them have come back from that with stories, that why wouldn't other civilizations be in some part guided by the visions of beyond the veil and death and if they have synchronicity, strange synchronicities that happen on their world, like happen to us here, you know, everyone's probably got a tale of a strange synchronicity. If those happen to those beings in their course of evolution and development, that why wouldn't they also be guided by these experiences? And if they have intuition and psychic events, like humans have, why wouldn't they be guided by those? So to find some commonality with an alien being might not be so surprising because if those are literally kind of parts of the fabric of the universe, that you will have an experience of a death type experience, you will have some of the strange guiding senses of synchronicities and strange coincidences and sometimes insights that come from nowhere. If that is really a universal thing, then we would expect some overlaps with those beings because they would have been guided by some of the same stuff that has guided our development, right? So even if it was long ago that it was important, it would have guided and shaped parts of their thinking and say spirituality or religions or whatever, you would expect some of that in there. So I don't think it's so shocking that we'd have overlaps. And also if they have, as this information suggests, had a guiding effect on us, well, why wouldn't we have commonality with them? Again, because then our thinking is alien thinking, right? Because the aliens help give you your thinking. So when you recognize in them, say, well, they're too similar, you know, oh, why do they think stuff that we've, well, because so they've shaped some of your thinking at some point and nudged you in a certain direction. So again, I think if you look at it like that, we've been sort of evangelized, cosmic evangelized too. And that's kind of here in the experience. And this is another angle of the research where I'm looking to delve into in the substack is the idea that, you know, it's not just that you can look and see the bits of the ship or traces of genetic engineering or this cosmic bombardment that's discussed, you know, multi-directed nostrils, it's a very big event. But also they talk about, you know, teaching us to cook, right, use fire and teaching us about spirituality and about living together and love and stuff. So if you're giving people the, you say, the cook of fire, that's kind of traceable. There's people looking at that. And we now know that at the moment, the evidence suggests the first cooking fires were used about 780,000 years ago. Well, that's funny timing, isn't it, Alex? Considering that all the other stuff in this story around 780,000 years ago, so it turns out that now cooking fires seem to be first used around the same time. And on top of that, you've got this idea they've shaped us by teaching us. Well, humans are the only organism on this planet that is considered to be self-domesticated. Right, well, that's funny, isn't it? It's funny how we're the only ones that somehow can self-domesticate. No other animals, all the others were domesticated by us, right? Doesn't that suggest that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't self-domestication, right? That that fits very much with the idea someone was there at the beginning to teach us and was teaching us how to be in a certain way. So we can also look at those non-physical aspects of contact, how would contact shape us going forward, right? And so that's one of the ways. And the fact that we see copious evidence of domestication, I think, is really telling because no one's come up with a convincing explanation for how any organism self-domesticates, right? If anyone finds it, let me know because I have seen nothing that sounds sensible to me. There's other examples where, I mean, I don't go too often to challenge it because you know, I'm like, aspergers, we go off at an angle. But just very quickly, there's a hard barrier in like language or language is mysterious. That's again, that's considered probably the hardest or second hardest problem in consciousness is language. How did we develop this language? Nobody understands that. They take it for granted, it just, oh, it just developed. But you look at what the consciousness studies people are saying, well, we haven't got a clue really how that's come about. This is amazing that we can just be thinking these ideas and then someone else understands that and they get a picture. Oh yeah, blah, blah, blah. That is way weirder than we really ever think into. And where did that come from? And then later on, we get a structure of thinking which allows you to put time and place, you know, in the future into your mind. So you kind of say, tomorrow we'll go to the river together, we'll fish and we'll cook the fish and then we'll take, we don't think of that as amazing but as far as we know, no other animals can really do that that we can plot and plan across space and time in real complex ways. Turns out that we don't think we could do that until about 70,000 years ago when there was a weird brain change, right? And they said, not only do you need a brain change but you need to be exposed to the language system and thinking that allows that brain region to switch on and you have to be exposed to it by about age five or six. Otherwise you're one of these like feral wolf children who never really recover, right? They can't do that. So who was there? Who was this teacher that is teaching these first children with this weird brain change how to think in those ways because nobody else on the planet is supposed to have it. It's just like a spontaneous mutation and you need someone to guide you with it and yet somehow, so there's all these little, we're not little, there's all these really big glaring anomalies in this story that people skip over because you just feel like well there must be a normal explanation, you know because, oh, we just talk and we just think like that. We're not encouraged to question that, are we Alex? I mean, we go through our lives and it'd be very easy to go through your life and never even think, how do we talk? Where did that come from? It's so basic and no one would even ask you to question it. So I don't know, I think there's a lot of angles to this story that we potentially could end up going down because if it's we've been shaped then we can probably find reverse engineer who we are, how we think, how we speak, all this stuff back to some kind of formative events that have set us apart from the other animals in this way and that a lot of them seem to have a connection to genetics as well. You know, the genetic elements to why we can talk, why we can do things we can do. So it's not separate from the anomalies in the genome. You know, it seems that the two things do it together. That's fantastic, terrific. And let's take it the other direction in terms of forward, you know because you've kind of mainly looked back in a really super interesting way that supports what you're doing. What if we look forward? You know, I love Dean Raiden even though he's kind of been my punching bag lately, Dr. Dean Raiden because he started this biotech and the purpose of the biotech is, hey, maybe we could, I've been studying psychic phenomenon for 30 years. We've even gotten to the point of looking at genetic correlates. Wow, what if we could jab somebody and then they became more psychic or as he speculates, what if they had a mind that was more of a hive mind, you know instead of blowing each other up, we're more like the bees. We're all kind of working together kind of thing. And I usually kind of roll this into a transhumanism rant, you know? Which, but here's the other way. And let's spin it the other way, which is where you're going, which is, okay, what if that's exactly what's happened? And when I just talked to Mary Rodwell recently who's done regressions with thousands of people and I really believe her technique is solid. I think her rigor is really up to par and she's worked with a lot of other people who have other diverse ways of doing it. They all come to the same conclusion. So what does that mean in terms of what might the future upgrades to the genetic code mean in terms of some of these things that we don't normally talk about? Because again, usually it's anything but those things. It's like, how can we be smarter? How can we be faster? How can we be stronger? Instead of what if it changed fundamentally the way we related to each other? What if it changed fundamentally to the way that we related to spirit, whatever that is or these extended consciousness realms? I'm gonna quit saying spirit because I don't know what any of that means, but people get the point. What do you think on that? Yeah, I mean, it's definitely changed in my opinion because I think if you cover these topics from what we would tend to think of, yeah, like a spiritual or metaphysical kind of view that most people in that kind of community have a fairly strong rejection of utilizing, say cybernetics and DNA changing and that side of it. But then, yeah, if we were to find that, well, there's two things we could find. One thing is we could find that DNA itself is a technology, is a biotech, right? Developed in an advanced lab on some distance world and it's used to terraform barren worlds. And I've thought about that many times because it's perfect for it. Spray it down, fly away, and it just unfolds and it creates a biosphere that will suit that world, right? So if it is biotech, then say modifying biotech is not that wild really, you know? And then the other side of that is if, okay, maybe it's not. But if we individually as humans, if we were modified, as you say, if you've already been modified, there's not really the same argument to say, you know, we're corrupting nature by doing this. Well, hang on a minute. We've already been derailed down that path. So if anything, maybe we should be looking at the patches for where things weren't done right. And so that's kind of where I'm a bit more at is that I don't necessarily think we should just go open Pandora's box and just create centaurs and stuff. But at the same time, I started to think, well, hang on, I can look and say that some of what's been done, and this is clarified in the story. You don't remember, they say that they don't have the right tech to do this properly and that they see some horrors that are born. You know, some of these first generation, it goes horribly wrong. So again, you're just gonna make up this sweet story. I don't think you'd put that in there because they see these ones that die. They're born, they're completely messed up. They die and that they carry on experimenting, saying they're basically doing it from kind of the first aid kits on the skate crafts, right? So although they have this great knowledge, they don't have everything they would have wanted. And so if you look at humans today, there are areas in the genome, which do amazing things in terms of our brain and like, you know, all these higher abilities, but they're linked to really severe problems, particularly like a reproductive system and all these things that stuff that you wouldn't think would be there because evolution would never favor it because it's like horrible stuff, stuff that's stopping you from getting like the propensity for miscarriages in human females, for example, right? Don't see the other primates. You don't see the scale of problems. Elaborate on that a little bit, Bruce, because it's a point that once you bring it up, once you make it clear, people go, that is strange. Right, yeah, because if you look at, if you compare humans to the other primates, not only do we have an extraordinarily difficult and painful birth compared to them, but we have massive problems in actually getting pregnant, first of all, also a hidden ovulation as well, which is kind of weird. And then on top of that, the rate of spontaneous abortion very early on, particularly pregnancy, is enormous compared to any other primates. And then the number of genetic errors and stuff that can happen and the different problems that you see in the maturation of infants and in the birth process, again, all of that is wildly different. And you have millions of women who've been through the loss of, say, of a child early on, particularly in pregnancy, they've been like, what did I do wrong? God, why did it happen to me? If you start to look at these anomalies, do you realize that, oh, no, no, it's a wonder that we can have children. It's a wonder that any of them are making it. And these genetic errors, they can't self-correct by selection because they're linked to genetic changes. They're giving us all of these other abilities. So you can see this, they're frozen in. Nature can't fix it. So if nature can't fix it, what does that leave? That only leaves us unnatural forces, if you want, technologies to then look and say, well, that was done with tech. Somebody has done that badly. Can we one day learn how to fix that so that we're not trying to change you into a cyborg or any of that really far out stuff? But I definitely support the idea that we can now look and say some of these things that gave us the big brain are doing some horrible stuff to children, I think, right? Ethically, I fully support fixing those problems because I believe that they have been done by biotech. So biotech to fix them feels appropriate. So that's my changed view on using DNA modification technologies is that where we find evidence that this is fixed in problems caused by somebody that surely we as a species have a right to try to fix those problems, especially if they're not coming back to do it or whatever. So there are other errors like that. There's a book actually very quickly before we got off that topic. There's a book called Human Errors, which was kind of written as a response to creationism and the idea that we are made by a perfect God because he points out a lot of these problems. And if you read it from the perspective of an intervention, you start to realize some of these problems, like I said, they make no sense in terms of natural selection, that why would they have ever arisen? They're so unbeneficial to the organism that they should have been swept away at the beginning in the first generation, but it's that association with other things that we have, the odd things like our complex brain, that again, you start to realize that yeah, there's some real strange stuff there, not just in an upgrade. Conversely, it's in our problems where you see some of the strangest stuff that gift-wrenching just from other primates, and in many cases, all mammals, right? So you've got to say, well, that's odd, isn't it? It's odd that we've got all these problems that no other organism on the planet ended up with. So Bruce, what, based on your research, and again, you are kind of reading and pulling and stuff so broadly, what is your best guess, your hunch in terms of where this is going? I'd love to think, like you're saying, that ethical standards and reason and caution would be applied, but we know at best it's gonna be a mixed case. Based on the cutting edge you see right now, where do you think it's going in the next five, 10 years in terms of the direct extension of exogenesis hybrid humans where we already see that it's happened and now we're reaching that level of technology, at least with the first aid kit, we probably already have the first aid kit. Where do you see it going? Yeah, I think in terms of the genetics, because we live in an imperfect world, we live in, I'd say, a time which is quite volatile, all sorts of powerful interests that are shaping society in negative ways. There is pushback more than ever on that. So a lot of it's gonna come down to what's the prevailing shaping force in our world? Because if it ends up that we have a fairly benevolent structure emerges, that we say enough's enough, sick of having these kind of offshore banker, billionaire types meddling and paying for banker wars and shaping society to be this weird technocracy of genetic engineer human 2.0 with his cybernetics. And if it really goes that way, then yeah, all horrors, Pandora's box will be opened and it's just a flow of horror would come out of there, using everything from nanotech to the different kinds of biotech to gene splicing stuff. And I just, in that model, then I just see us careering towards destruction. And there's so many ways we can do that now. I say with nanotech, biotech, nuclear, there's plenty of ways now. We're at that point where we, I think someone said, it's almost as though we don't want to commit suicide, we want to make sure it works. So we've developed like a dozen ways to kill ourselves now so that we can just put them all out at once. I think, you know, it's like, that doesn't get me for that, we're all that, we're all that, you know. So we're at that cusp where if we really go that way, it's hard to see how we survive as a species. I mean, what's it say, 2045, all men will be functionally sterile as it stands. That's the projection by the leading experts, is that all the plastics, toxins, and everything, we're heading towards cataclysmic events, even just on that alone, right? Just on our sterility, you know, let alone, forget all the other stuff. So we have so many of these problems. If we carry on down that path, extinction is just, it's beckoning, it's very clearly beckoning. So on the other side of it though, if we do manage to change that control structure and we throw off the kind of really negative selfish influences of a small clique, if I'd say probably about a couple of thousand people, if you look at it, the billionaire and hundred millionaire kind of class, that within that, I'm not saying they're all bad guys, right? But within that sort of 2,000 odd people with that immense wealth, that if that was to shift to a more benevolent system, you know, even amongst them, if that prevailed, you know, I'm sure there's some kind of differences of opinions, right? So if we move towards a structure where we are benevolent, and we wanna use these technologies genuinely for the good, not just to create some kind of a hellscape, then I could see us actually, you know, fixing genetic errors, using nanotech to provide materials for the third world and, you know, new energy systems for the world. So I don't know, it's that thing, it's really hard to cook, because I'd say right now we're on that, you know, right on that edge in the precipice where it either becomes amazing, you know, that the space age future, but not in the, where we all become robots, a space age kind of future where it unfolds that we all sort of share on a greater journey, I guess you've got that looking inwards and outwards, exploring space and inner space together, forever, or yeah, it's just so awful that I think we'll be clad to go extinct, you know, that almost like that, where you wouldn't wanna live in that world that those interests are shaping, because it would be so, so awful, you know, that I don't know, that's kind of where I'm at. I think though that, you know, I have to be positive and I say, I think we will, you know, just scrape through by the seat of our pants, realizing how bad it can get, you know, that it's taking us getting right to the wire of starting to realize that there are interests who would happily drag us into a nuclear war, for example, right, that they would have no qualms, if that they felt was in their best interest would have no qualms seeing most of the world radiated, right, or pulling out a virus and just wiping out a particular group or something, but, you know, those are the kind of mindsets that you're dealing with. So I think they're starting to see that very much on the global stage. More people are realizing that this isn't something where you can just be looked down and I'm just going on with my life, you know, I don't, you know, I let these other interests to what they, we can't anymore. I think we've realized that now they are wielding such dangerous, you know, powers that everyone is going to have to, you know, wake up, help put their feet on the break and say that, you know, this is not the direction for humanity. And this kind of information that we're getting out of Algeringa and other things that are happening, you know, I think a part of the breaking system of our culture, not this alone, I'm sure there's a lot of other interesting projects that are happening, but I do think that, you know, these projects are emerging at this time to make us reevaluate our place in time, space, consciousness, you know, who we are, where we're going, is there a point to life? You know, did someone else out there with intelligence have a point for us, for example, you know, that they actually had, you know, some idea of where we might want to go and have left us some kind of clues about what can help a civilization survive for hundreds of thousands of years. You know, if they've managed it, then it's manageable for a start. We should give us a glimmer of hope because in the setting field, you know, you know, there's often that question, well, where is everybody? If everybody's extinct and they've all died out, then what hope is there for us? Well, if it turns out there are many civilizations that have become technological, but then have survived on for hundreds of thousands of years, well, then they have found their way through the great filter. And so if they can, then so can we. So I think a lot of these things are kind of hopeful in themselves that multiple civilizations did this. Oh, maybe that we can do this. You know, even if we have to ask them for a couple of tips here and there, which, you know, we can be humble enough to do that, whether those are aliens or spirit beings or ancestors, you know, whatever works for us, but maybe we do something I need to reach out to those metaphysical realms and say, gony clues, you know, any help there? And in some cases, I think it can be helpful. And this is one of those cases. I see history's full of them, though. All the tribes and people would say, you know, they were guided, they asked the spirits for help. The spirits told them where the buffalo were or the water was. And, you know, so it's not necessarily just about aliens coming and, you know, cosmic daddy cleaning up our mess. I don't think that's a solution either. I think that, you know, but asking for little tips here and there from those realms and from my intuition. Yes, looking for a cosmic savior. No, I don't think that's a good idea or being dependent on some other intelligence because, you know, if they give us all their technologies or something like that, then you are just a subsidiary, right? Because, you know, you no longer in control of your destiny. So I think we should be careful as well at the idea that, you know, aliens will come and they'll give us zero point technologies and blah, blah. Well, they'll be maintaining them. You know, we don't know how. You'll be totally dependent. You're just a subsidiary. So I also think we have to be a bit wary on going down that road of the alien savior. Yeah, it's interesting. And I think that's a natural segue into this third category topic that is central to your thesis as spelled out in exogenesis. And that's the bombardment. And I would relate it back to something you said that I would kind of, I think take issue with a little bit. I think we should resist this idea of looking towards, we always want to say the billionaires or the elite or something like that. I think what the story tells us is that it's a more fundamentally spiritual kind of issue. And I think we see that playing out. More and more people see it. You know, the United States Super Bowl is a huge event around the world and billions of people watch it. And it's, for the last several years, it's been completely satanic. And it was again this year and it's just overtly satanic. And if you sit around with a bunch of people like I did who are not red-pilled, there's this kind of quiet kind of, like they're stunned into silence, like what the hell did I just see? That is so incredibly overtly satanic. And I think that's what's at play here. That's how it's playing out. And what's interesting to me about exogenesis and what you've again pulled from Valerie Burrow but then taken to this next level in terms of falsification and scientific validation of it is there are other agendas which if we were gonna characterize them on this moral scale, we would say are dark, harmful, malevolent agendas. So where do you see that going in the future in terms of your work and new information that you can pull in that would help us better understand how we reach that point too. Cause that's a very scary point in this story. And you talk about the one thing that never really kind of totally adds up there is you talk about sliding through them by the skin of the pants. It's like, no, they almost destroyed the planet. So it's like, that's not, that's not generally how I would see policing done or the united nations galactic, united nations thing to help. Hey, it might destroy the planet, it might not. It's like when they blow off the nuclear bomb, hey, might totally burn up the atmosphere. Let's see. What do you think? Yeah, no, I mean, I think there's a couple of things. I mean, I've seen the book when she talks about this other group that they essentially consider themselves here like a cosmic police force, but they also it's explained really that they consider themselves as being almost like perfect. Do what they want. We know best, we do what we want to do. And we can destroy a planet, we can throw a planetoid down at it and just crack it and spit some. So in a way, they are what we would probably think of in terms of D&D type stuff, chaotic neutral or something, because though that group is considered itself more aligned with this peaceful alliance, they obviously don't have the same mindset. They're not against the idea that when they encounter this other malevolent force to use what we would consider like absolutely horrendous levels of warfare to actually maybe just go and destroy some of the opponent's planets and just wipe them out or something. So that definitely is more in the realms of chaotic neutral than the good guy, benevolent kind of field that we normally have with stories of say, like, you know, Pledeans and beings from, you know, all these various stars that come up in these stories, you know, we get all these different, they're all good guys basically, like, you know, cosmic angels or something, right? So, you know, these others that turn up to enforce this agreement, they definitely don't sound like that. And they're quite willing to do this. So that I find it's quite interesting the way that, you know, it shows a more complex story of alignments that, you know, that, yeah, then one lot would come along kind of peacefully, not even on their ship. And the other lot would consider cracking the planet in half if they have to, you know? So that's kind of, yeah, it kind of makes you think, you know, and also you should give some concern, you know, like I said, you know, if these beings are still out there and if, you know, for some reason, it got to a point where a group like that just thought, enough's enough, you know, bring down the comet, you know? I mean, obviously that should give some pause for thought that, you know, there may not be an absolute tolerance level for behaviors on our planet. And particularly if we are heading towards alignment with the opposing force, you know, that there might be a group that would stand back and say, you've got to give them free will. And the other says, nope, we've just got to blow the planet up, right? So that I think is a hard one for people to probably get their head around as well. That, you know, it's not as clear cut as just the good and bad and, you know, good holds off and lets you have free will and bad attacking you. That, you know, that there's other influences that may think that they're being very good, but we would see that as, you know, extraordinarily violent, aggressive, kind of enforcement behavior. And on top of that, I mean, look, you know, if we accept the premise, and again, I can't prove this part, but that there's this other group, you know? So there's tried as being this kind of reptilian humanoid group and let's put reptilians, that puts people off straight away. It's a knee jerk one because we've, everyone's been 12 years, it's the craziest conspiracy theory out there. You know, reptilians live on the earth or that are infiltrating our governments. And, you know, that is, it's kind of funny. It's kind of pushed just the most crazy. And yet in many ways, they would be the most reasonable sounding aliens because we know this planet had psorians. We know that we had dinosaurs and stuff. If any other kind of intelligent humanoid evolved here, it's very reasonable to think of it being a reptilian humanoid. So I would say that's kind of an ironic thing of the, you know, the, the form that should be the most believable is the most rejected and laughed at, you know? And there's even being, you know, academics you've written about, you know, the salurian hypothesis, the idea there may be an advanced civilization in those times, you know, going back millions of years ago and that we just don't see it in the records. It's so long ago, but that we could have had, you know, dinosauroid people that flew to the moon. So these aren't actually as crazy as people are told, right? And then on top of that, if they have remained here hidden or in a base on the moon or whatever and do continue to influence us, and that's kind of insinuated in the material, is that they're not all gone, that although there's this bombardment, that there's some of them remain. And if that is the case, and obviously there's mythology around the world from all sorts of cultures telling us that there are these reptilians and Christians were talking about demons as being reptilian looking, you know, again, it's a familiar framework. So it's kind of funny that we have that dichotomy of rejection because they were everywhere in our law and in our mythology. And then, you know, if they are influencing our systems, perhaps, you know, government, whatever, military, you know, if we were to choose alignment with them, what is the consequences of that? So if you say that we have these openly satanic looking practices and a culture that in many ways seems to get pushed towards that through our mainstream media, you know, that you're being shaped to a certain mindset. So if that is legitimately part of the story, is there a point where you are considered to be so like them as that it's time to bring down the comment? And again, that's another conundrum, I think that we have to face, is that if it's kind of like a great choice and rather than a war in the way that we think of it, it being that, you know, you're given the choice and that there's other intelligences that are standing back and kind of maybe like a bit, but watching, you know, so which way are you going to go? You're going to go into alignment with this, you know, higher kind of benevolent group or this more malevolent group. And in the middle of these other ones, just waiting with the comment, just, you know, it catches up quite the different vision of these kind of cosmic stories, you know, than we're usually being projected from, whether from sci-fi or whether from contact cases, you know, I think it's very different and more believable. Again, I think it's the nuance and complexity of this kind of backstory that sounds more like real living beings and the kind of things that they might be pondering instead of, you know, I guess poorly painted caricatures of human aliens, you know, which often we have to find in science fiction. So it's not a simple story, it's not a simple story. Also, I think, you know, the other thing I was just quickly touching that as well was that we told that these other beings, these reptilians, that they have a kind of a religious system and that they believe in another lot of beings, these sort of interdimensional Draco beings who they're kind of scared of and that they've had to the past give offerings to and feed beings to because those feed on some kind of energy of consciousness. And they just sound like an absolute nightmare, you know, a total nightmare, the most horrendous, horrendous, conceivable entities imaginable, right? They literally feed on consciousness somehow. I mean, if those are real, I mean, those would be the archetype of the devil, right? This idea that there's some being that takes and feeds on souls, right? That needs all these souls. And that's kind of, again, just a really, should make, I find that one really, you know, the most horrendous scenario, the idea that you've been swallowed down into this endless kind of pit of consciousness within this Draco horde. They say you're not, it's like not being quite dead, but you're somehow, you know, your essence being digested into this shared consciousness of the Draco horde. So it just sounds just so horrendous and that they're supposed to have been wars fought in the past to push back these Draco and the beings they've created because they were just waging this ceaseless conquest across the cosmos. And that that's why there's this alliance in the first place that's doing all this stuff is kind of come out of collaboration with various worlds. You're like, my God, you know, the hordes come in. You know, there must be allies out there. You know, that, so it does seem like there's this, just as, I mean, I know it's wild, I mean, it's wild stuff. And that's why it's, you know, I don't tend to put straight out there because it is wild. On one hand, I find it wild. On the other hand, I find it strangely reverberating with so many things we've heard. I mean, it's just very Gnostic. It's like right out of the Gnostic kind of thing. But it is also out of our lore and accounts that people have passed on for hundreds and hundreds of years recorded history and the eating of souls and the, you know, that whole thing, you know, so strange. I'll tell you what, this is- I'm sorry. Sorry. I was gonna, if you read Graham Hancock's book, you know, his fancy book about the Nanda Falls and stuff. And in there, he said, you know, in Ayahuasca vision, he was contacted by this blue lady and, you know, she's telling him all this stuff. And it's got these reptilian Draco kind of beings. They're eating the souls of the ancient hominins. And it flies in. It's getting people to sacrifice humans so they can feed on the souls. And this was a lot, you see, you know, came out during a visionary experience with Ayahuasca. I mean, again, I was kind of, you know, just made other things to keep bubbling up, you know. Yeah. The whole place he takes that is so interesting. I always like this. You got Montezuma on one side is playing that game. And then you got the kind of keys to the doors where you're playing the same game for a different, you know, we can look at it differently, but you can also look at it as, well, they're kind of playing the same game of, you know, decimating all these souls. So this has been fantastic, kind of much more than I would have even hoped for. I guess there's one other thing we should cover. And that's in what ways is Valerie's material a bridge too far for you in terms of looking at it and going, okay, love her, love all the people, but I think it's a little too out there, imaginal, it's just in the way. And I don't want to kind of put it down. I want to rein it back into what we're talking about. It's part of the experience. It's part of the phenomenon that when you, when you listen to the whispers of the spirits, you don't sit there and, you know, take it all down literally. So any thoughts on that? Yeah, sure. I mean, again, I'd like to commit to that, you know, that we've got many people involved in the backstory. And if you've got 40 odd people involved, you know, there's definitely room there for either imaginal or, you know, I don't want to be dishonest, but you know, there's room for someone to make something up. There's definitely a space for, you know, imaginal stuff. So, you know, obviously I've tried to focus my efforts on validating what can be validated and then recognizing that a lot of the rest of that could be true. And maybe one day, find a way to prove it, but it could be true. I can't argue that it's true with somebody. So I think the reader has to then, in their own mind, make that decision of, you know, what of that just seems too extraordinary or too unlikely, you know? Because obviously there's bits, like you said, that feel a bit unlike or don't mesh well. Extinction of the dinosaurs way off, you know? So if we're going to look at the way, the technology we have and we're going to put some weight behind it as you do and saying, you know, hey, let's look at Stable June and they're changing that, then don't we also have to take that same science and go, well, we can point at that and say, well, that's clearly off. So what's going on there? Yeah, sure. I mean, this in backstory about, you know, you know, in the dinosaurs, now whales are involved and, you know, they represent other beings here. And, you know, stuff like that, where I would be like for me, you know, yeah, that stuff feels more like into the realm of new age story than something that, you know, I'm willing to kind of say that I feel that's real. You know, I think what I felt was real is specifically this story of the craft, the visitation, the genetic engineering, the bombardment. You know, this is what I say, the core story. There's a lot of additional things that talked about the outside of that story and about the cosmos and about beings where I would put that definitely in the bucket of that could well be just, you know, imaginal or from experiences people have had in their own spiritual life, meditation or whatever. You know, they've maybe blended some of that in because they believe it already going into the story. Because a lot of these people are in it, are mediums, you know, they're psychic mediums, healers, spiritual people who are intuitive people. So it makes some sense that they're the ones remembering past lives or having experiences with this Turinga artifact that she's got. Because, you know, those are the sort of people you think would pick up on information, right? So it's a kind of catch-22. People say, I was only validated in a physicist, but if she'd been a physicist, could she have picked up on the, would the artifact have had any effect on her? Maybe not. Maybe you have to be psychically aware to have contact, right? So there's a kind of catch-22. But then a lot of those people, of course, are in that world of, you know, holistic healing and learning about philosophical ideas and new age concepts. So I don't think we can, you know, say that they're going to have any influence from other existing beliefs, maybe from other channeling or something they've heard. And I think that creeps its way in there in places, that they definitely, I think there's some coloring of the data by people's own beliefs. I mean, for example, I mean, Valerie believed that, as you know, she argued that the Moldovite was the ship material. So again, people say that, you cherry pig, you're just trying to prove her right. Well, no, actually, she was quite upset with me for saying that it was the Australite was the mesh with the craft debris because she felt it was the Moldovite. But Moldovite is millions of years old, right? So like you can't mesh it. Like I said with these other things, they don't mesh with science. I couldn't argue to somebody that Moldovite was the ship debris because then I'd have to explain why all our dating shows us millions of years old. But she has a lot of experiences with the green glass as she calls it that, you know, so how are you processing that in terms of, because now we're having to draw some distinctions there that are kind of uncomfortable for how we process the whole thing. How do you deal with that? Yeah, I mean, I, you know, it's a funny one because at the same time, like my wife, you know, Danielle, she held a piece of Moldovite and she found herself what seemed to be coming from that ship in an escape pod coming towards her and seeing the burning ship. So why would that happen with Moldovite? If Moldovite is just an unconnected material that has nothing to do with this story. And yet in Sony people report holding Moldovite and having space related and cosmic experiences or profound psych experiences, right? So there is some conundrum there. I tend to feel that what we're looking at is probably that all tech types are in some way related to off-world intelligence because there's only like four strewn fields. It's a really rare stuff. Like, so I'm starting to look more at it. I think they're all to do with interstellar objects and that those objects may or may not be technological but I think that they all have probably are technological and that all of them have an extraordinary backstory. So how do I know that Moldovite isn't from an earlier craft that blew up here and with an AI intelligence on it and all the rest of it? And it isn't in some way that when you hold it you're not connecting to another consciousness that is part of that collective, right? And so it's showing you parts of these stories that it also is tapped into. I don't know. I mean, I can't write that off because people are having experiences with it. They hold it and they have these kind of related experiences. Now I don't know as much with Australite. I haven't heard about as much of that. It's much more common with Moldovite than anyone saying I held a piece of Australite and I saw, you know, and the Greenstone of course, you know, there's lots of legends of the Greenstone, the Emerald Tablets, the Green Cup of the Grail, you know, there's a lot of legends to do with Greenstone and visionary experiences and recorded information. And so I don't think I can just dismiss it. I just, I can't, I don't believe it's part of that craft. I don't believe the science fits it. So unless there's something wrong with our understanding of the dating of something to do with this craft going through time space or something, you know what I mean? I, it would be outside of the known science reference frame that we have. I don't actually dismiss it either. I just said, I can't argue that because I don't see the support for it. The same with, you know, some of the other aspects in that, in that material, in the book. Or again, you know, I couldn't actually, well, look the date, for example, what she was given was that it was somewhere towards 900,000 years ago. Every bit of evidence I see is for around 788,000 years ago. That centers in on the best dating of the tech type, right? So that's my focal date. Well, that's 100,000 years off from where she feels it should be. So again, if someone says you're cherry picking to fit someone's story, well, that's quite a big chasm between what she was quite convinced of and what I'm convinced of. So 900,000 years ago, Moldovaite, you know, it was quite different to 788,000 years ago, Australite, you know what I mean? So there are these kind of schisms there in the data versus the story and versus her beliefs about the story, right? So that totally makes sense. I've come to the thinking that if someone wants to see it as that or maybe her story was wrong, maybe it was influenced by people's thinking or whatever it is, but if it's led someone to what appears to be objective evidence of a contact event, even if it's a different contact event, right? Maybe the other one was made up, but then you find a real one whilst looking for a made up one, right? To me, that would still be an amazing result. You know what I mean? It's like, well, hang on. I'm still finding that this is cluster of all the same kind of events that are being described, but they're just at a different time and not quite the way that those sources believed that they happened. So if it'd been that there just wasn't, you know, there wasn't any support is a different thing, isn't it? But if you then find that, you know, they're saying there was this silica ship blew up, you find silica debris that rained from orbit, you know, roughly 788,000 years ago, that you're told that there's this asteroid bombardment, turns out multiple asteroids hit Earth around between 770, 790,000 years ago. They believe all at the same time. So again, it does seem this multi-directional cosmic bombardment is also real. And then on top of that, that there's genetic engineering at the same time. And now we know that the early archaic lineage of the first Nyanifals, Denisos and us is basically diverging around 800,000 years ago. So again, so if you're like free for free on the events that they're talking about, even if they're at a different time and even if the material they talked about is a bit different. That to me doesn't invalidate it. Someone else might say, well, that's a different story than is it or something? Well, I can't tell you for sure, but I can say that it's weird that all of the events are there. Now, it could be that our understanding of dating, you know, geological dating is off. It could be that these intelligences for some reason obscured the date and that, you know, why they do that maybe for the same reasons that, like we said earlier that a lot of people have had information given to them that is partly false. Now, we don't know why that is. We don't know why in intelligence would give someone 80% real stuff but say we don't think we should tell them that a bit because we do that stuff. That's like how misinformation, disinformation and propaganda that works, right? You know, there's a lot of information that's true and then you throw in something else. So they may well have their own agendas as intelligent beings and they may prefer it that way. Maybe they don't wanna make it too easy for you, right? And just say, oh, it's on a platter. Maybe you're supposed to do some work and find out some of this and show that it's not quite the way that they've been told for some lesson that we need. Maybe that not to trust 100% the things you're told by intelligences. Again, and I said, that's the lesson I learned in my life. So it wouldn't surprise me if on some other scale they also do that a bit on their bigger stories that you're supposed to actually question and not to swallow it and say, well, 900,000 years ago they came here in a Moldovite ship and maybe you're meant to fact check them and that they might be pleased to see that you did that and say, oh, you know, they actually bothered to check instead of just swallowing it because we are higher beings, you know that that's not what we want from them. So that would be my kind of hypothesis is that, you know that perhaps, yeah, they don't want us to do that and that there's a mistake just to swallow it that you are supposed to go through and critically analyze these stories and decide for yourself, A, what is supportable by evidence, B, what is reasonable to suspect to be true and C, what appears to be just garbage woven in? Yeah, that's wonderfully nuanced and I think that's where we have to continue to go is kind of more subtle. I mean, maybe it is the fill up experiment all over again. I'm drawn to your core story because I think we have a lot of evidence of that from other paranormal experiences that people have in readings and dreams and past life regression where sometimes there is the trickster element of it but also I think what you brought to the table with evolution as it relates to language, as it relates to processing information, I always think it's extraordinary that the download experience is always the same story of, I knew everything and then I returned to this form and I knew a thumbnail and it would make sense to me that that's what's going on all the time and we're just not aware of it. So you're channeling, channeling, channeling and you think you're channeling and up there they're going, you got it wrong. Then I tried to tell you as clearly as possible, how did you get it that way? And you're like, no, no, no, no, no. It's a Shakespeare play. I saw it, I know the whole thing. You know what I mean? That to me just rings true because we see it in humans all the time, you know? And we see it also, I would just add one other piece because I heard this the other day, I think it's so true, you know, it's like, we know this from personal experience in our family. You know, you get together with your family, your brothers and sisters, you go, remember that trip to the lake when we were seven years old and dad tipped over the canoe? And the other kid goes, no, you tipped over the canoe, dad wasn't even on the canoe, he was on shore. And it's like, what do you, you know? So we all understand that part of it. There's so many things that are in play. Again, the nuanced thing is the only way to even try and get close to it. Yeah, absolutely. Memories and, you know, we know memories can be wrong and none of us are perfect witnesses and none of us are perfectly receiving and passing on information. So, yeah, even if you had an accurate story given to you, you know, it's a good chance you'd pass on some parts wrong, you know, if it's visionary, experiential and part of life memories and because that's a whole thing in itself. Again, even if the memories are real, doesn't mean that some of them are not shaped by you, you know, that they can be a real story that even in this lifetime, they say that you don't remember right. So if you did live a life a long time ago and you remember stuff from it, there's a good chance that that is not accurate because we're starting to understand that the nature of memory is that it reshapes and that it's actually trying to provide you with the most useful version of the story or the story that, you know, or the one that makes the most sense now is not trying to give you the 100% accurate recall. And that we, I think we mostly don't realize that. That's not what memory is about really. It's more about keeping you alive and going. So sometimes it edits something so that it's in your advantage to remember in a different way and it will change it for you, right? So I don't see why that couldn't happen with extraordinary events, visionary experiences, past-life memories. And with past-life memories, again, I mean, there's a big knee-jerk rejection for that. But, you know, if you go back to the work of a professor Ian Stephenson, I think a lot of your listeners would be familiar with that, other people may not be. But, you know, he got to a point where the evidence was so compelling that even like the uber skeptics and even Carl Sting, you know, all the, you know, the paranormal type claims, the ones that are worth looking at, you know, that was in his list, like three of them. And one of them was the reincarnation work of Ian Stephenson because it is so solid. The guy has just gone through, you know, hundreds and hundreds of these cases of children with these memories and matching scars to where they say they were killed in the past life and tracking down families, the kids are convincing the families, you know, the work was done to such a high standard that, you know, all the skeptics were kind of like, well, yeah, you know, but let's just ignore it. You know, rather than sort of debating and defeating him in some kind of ideological combat, he was more swept under the rug because the reality was it seemed extraordinary compelling that there is some kind of passing on of information across generations that resembles reincarnation in some form. No one knows exactly what that form is or why it's happening. But what he found is something like that is happening. So if you take that on board and then we have 40 odd people who seem to have reincarnational memories. Now, if you accept the premise of reincarnation, then the other interesting thing about Valerie's story is this is to my knowledge, the largest ever group reincarnation case in the files of reincarnation studies. The only other one like that, which I mentioned in my book is the CAFAS, the reincarnation of the CAFAS, which actually happened not far from me about 30 miles away. There was a psychologist down in Bath and he started to have all these clients coming to him and they were all remembering the same period, this life as CAFAS, where they ended up being executed and the fall of the last CAFAS stronghold and all this. But they were all, and they were the names of the people matched up. They had to find some guy that was a specialist archivist in the, this is not to just walk into a library and find. People were checking in the archives, obscure libraries and finding the names that these people came out with as real CAFAS. Consideratics were burned. I mean, this is wild stuff that people is poorly known and poorly appreciated for how compelling these cases are, right? So, I mean, it's easy to say, well, he starts saying about these people having reincarnation memories, it's absurd. Well, it is absurd if you just ignore the whole wealth of supporting evidence that reincarnation is a real thing, that there is some aspect of us that either continues or picks up information from other people's lives in the past. I don't know the absolute answer for what it is, why it is, but people are having verifiable information come to them as the experience of a memory from another life. So why not going all the way back to 788,000 years because when they were early hominins or whoever they were as aliens or whatever, I don't think we can put some sort of limit then on what can bubble up in consciousness. If it's been there from the whole time that we are just recurring, energy never being destroyed, just coming back again in different forms, that something seems to have bubbled up in this case and that a whole group of people have ended up in Australia sort of connected in a web where they for whatever reason have come back in that life to further this or complete this task and that now it's helped it come out and it's led to objective information. So, it's a funny one in that because you put all the things in one case anyway, the time slips, strange artifacts that can talk to people, mediums and aliens, talking ships, time. I know it's a lot for anyone to take, but individually each one of these kinds of phenomena has other support, right? It's just we don't normally see them cluster into one narrative where it's like, I was thinking it's a bit like a Hollywood guy, you've given them this amazing budget, and you've said, make me a sci-fi film. He's like, I'm just going to throw everything in. What the hell? I'm going to spend every penny, we're going to have all this stuff, fly ships, I'm going to have time travel, and you'd be like, this guy's gone crazy. Why couldn't you have simplified it and made it more reasonable? And that's what it feels like. It feels like you've got the whole special effects team on this, because I want everything, I want asteroids coming down and alien ships that can talk. And you'd be sitting there going, I think you're going too far, you need to cut back. And that's why it starts to feel like it's like every phenomena has just clustered into one narrative. And yet it appears to be mostly a true story. And that is just the wildest, wildest kind of conclusion to come from something that just on the face of it, you would think was just really absurd. Someone just told you, but by the way, it's this story, it sounds absurd until you look at it closer and be like, well, actually, there's a lot of supporting elements to this. And it's, yeah. I mean, obviously you can understand that, for the same similar reasons that you've looked at it, you know that it's got a lot of strange aspects, but then funnily enough, individually, all of these aspects do have support elsewhere and the story at the core has material support. And that I don't know of any other case, kind of like that. Bruce, the idea that it could be the right story, the right true story at the right time is probably about the most encouraging thing, optimistic thing that I could possibly imagine. Cause it does make you think that maybe in this strange time that we're in is the kernel of what could come in and be better. And wow, what an awesome thing to just think about. We don't have to buy into it. What's next? Where are you going with this? Yeah, so I mean, obviously work on the sub-stack. I'm gonna do my best to get the whole updated kind of story out there. And I think I've done a meter of put it back story as well. And I'll try and get all that out there in the sub-stack. But on the side of that also, we're tentatively at the beginning of expanding the project so that there will be a more formal research arm to this, which will have funding and will allow me to collaborate with experts who could be brought in and have funding to do research, probably under a university banner, so I'm approaching it, not all universities like the sounds of this, but as my collaborator has said, they do like to hear this funding though. So that we might be able to get a situation where say we could have geneticists or material engineers experts in their field who could come in and be asked to give their opinions on aspects of this and collaborate on writing papers, but then conversely on the other side, which I know you prefer to create kind of engagement and media and ways to then get this to the public as well. Because of course, like writing a paper on it is great and that is important in that side of it, but that isn't really for the general public, that's a conversation to then spark a conversation in a scientific community, right? Which is their own kind of world. So on the separate side of that, we would hope that the media will engage with those papers because as you know, like we look at the one recently with Adi Loeb and the guy from Arrow, they wrote a paper about just the basic constraints of what they might expect with the UFO topic. And now you've got headlines saying alien motherships in the solar system, they're spewing out probes. So we're living in a kind of a funny moment, aren't we? Where you could have something that was a fairly tame paper and yet the media have gone totally wild. So if they were to do the same with some research that we're doing, that could become really interesting to be honest. Do you know what I mean? If they were willing to go all out on things like alien motherships spewing out probes on a tame paper, if we were actually to say, well, we're doing a formal research program, we were looking for genetic modification of humans, 780,000 and we're being done formally. I don't think you'd even need to get the results through before some journalist thought this is amazing. I suspect that what we see there is them really playing both sides in a very clever way, right? So put out the Avi Loeb story, get the minions to spin it this way and now you have kind of plausible deniability, you can go back and go, what the luck? He didn't say anything. He doesn't even believe that there's, he doesn't even believe that the tech videos are real necessarily. He's still on the fence about that. So now you have it both ways, but you can also do the conditioning that they're doing, the slow disclosure conditioning and stuff. But that doesn't take away from what you're saying. Cause one of the things you brought out in this wonderful, generous two hours that you gave us is that the mission for you doesn't change, which is advance the science as far as you can, bring as many people on board, bring new people on board who may have a piece of the puzzle and don't know that they do. So all that, it doesn't change your job. You got to get up every day and put the shoes on and go do that. So yeah, if they're playing the game this way or that way, you can't really worry about that too much. So I mean, I think there's a, it's just probably now just looking to expand to a different stage where yeah, for me a lot of it won't change, but if we can have an angle where yeah, it's engaging those people who, let's say the media will find more difficult to ignore because it's pretty easy to ignore me, some guy, if at the same time we can bring in some of the top people in some of these fields and that they are willing to comment on it, even if just as an advisory role, we've seen the way that, as I say, some of these other stories have been blown up massively with far less than saying, hey, look, general public, there's a team involving respectful science stuff. They're looking to see if aliens have modified the human genome at this specific point in time and also looking at the possibility of one of those alien motherships that you heard in that other story, having been here and blown up pieces. I think once they can see that it's not just some guy that's been on ancient aliens, where it's really easy to go crank, cuckoo, and dismiss that, that I think even to say that there is a research team with a respectful umbrella with scientists involved, that that could disseminate into the media a lot easier and reach a lot of people who really would probably be quite compelled to the story, but they just never heard of the story. So they don't necessarily need the TEP-type analysis, they don't need every genome known, right? Because most people don't function like that. They would look at that as a complete story and say, well, it's kind of wild that there's all these dates lining up, the fire was there and this thing blew up then, the genetics changed then. I think for the average person who hears that, they immediately think, well, at least on the fence of thinking maybe that's real, because it seems like it's not just one thing, it's multiple things. And they don't need, humans aren't, we're not all academic computing device type thinkers. Most people will put that story together and just feel whether it's reasonable to them or not. And I think that for a large proportion of humanity, if you were to hear that story, it was on the news, right? I reckon you'd come away with probably 50% of humanity, pretty much accepting that that happened, right? Just based on the evidence that exists now, without doing any extra DNA analysis or any more materials analysis, they would look at that and say, as wild as the rest that stuff is, it does seem like something came here from space and blew up and at the right moment when we start to evolve, that's all super weird, and we're being told at this moment, alien motherships may have come here and reasonable people are saying it and the interstellar objects are coming here and now the government's looking at UFOs. I mean, that's definitely a fertile ground, isn't it? That we are in now for the public to say, I'm willing to stretch my cojulity on this and just listen, hear it out and then come away thinking, geez, I think this may be really happened. So I'm quite hopeful. I think that, yeah, we'll see how it goes. And also like I said, it's early days, I am contacting some universities to see how that would work, having a research under their umbrella for the funding purposes and stuff. So obviously, again, if someone out there listening, they are at a university and they like, maybe like to sound that, maybe would like to be involved. Again, that would be kind of cool too. And I'm sure some of your listeners, they might have things they could contribute to that or maybe in fields, which, you know, they can revise, re-roll or directly come on board and help, you know, paint through a paper on that, saying, you know, that, you know, yeah, there's an angle here. I'd be happy to collaborate with you on and we could put out, you know, just a short paper, just saying there's the possibility there based on what we're seeing of, you know, an anomaly that could have been engineered or of materials that have been used that make sense from a computing, you know, understanding that they have. So that's the kind of thing I think, Alex, where it's going is that, you know, there's probably people out there sitting there thinking, yeah, I do that every day, I do that work all the time. That'd be easy. I could spend a few hours just giving you some tips of what to look for, you know, that kind of side of it. So hopefully that's what we will start to see. That's terrific. Anything else to mention as we wrap things up? Well, of course, I suppose it would be great if people would sign up to my sub-stack. I mean, that's, you know, obviously where I'm trying to put everything out there. The intention of that is that, you know, if it covers everything eventually, there's never an end to what I'm doing, but, you know, I would like to probably take some of that material later, condense it and edit it into a book. So obviously it'd be nice if going forward, people sort of follow me and also support me if they can by paid subs or buying the books or the existing book, you know, because obviously I put a lot of time into this stuff, you know, and it's not a materially rewarding activity, particularly, you know, because it hasn't got the traction of some of the UFO topics, you know, so, you know, you're not seeing me on Fox and on CNN talking about alien motherships. So I mean, there's not really that. So I super appreciate anyone who is willing to go to the sub-stack, sign up, you know, please, you know, do consider a paid subscription on there, it's like five pound a month, and I will keep trying to churn out the rest of this information as quick as I can. And obviously, like you've seen, some of the artists are quite in depth. So, you know, like not a couple of hours at the desk, you know, I have to kind of really put things back together in a way that I hope is explaining things well. And that will go, I think there's been a few more weeks to get through the, even the core story, you know, but we're just onto the starting of the genetics now. So that's probably a few articles. And then like I said, we will deal with the other stuff by teaching the hominins. You know, there's going to be, so there's quite a few topics yet to be done. So I hope people will follow along and, you know, join in, you know, leave comments and stuff. By all means point me towards, you know, scientists or universities that you think are sympathetic or media journalists, anyone like that, you know, all of this stuff I think is important. We live in a time where, look, we're right at the edges of what could be, you know, world war three and crazy stuff. You know, I think if people take a gamble on the fact that maybe a story like this could help divert things in a positive way, that alone surely is worth people spending a few moments of their time on when they look at the world as it is now, just breaking down, right? But isn't it worth giving this a chance just to see if it has some positive, you know, possibilities for us as a species? Fantastic, Bruce. Thank you so much for the interview and for the work that you do. Terrific, man. Thank you. Thank you for exploring, Alex. Appreciate it.