 and welcome. I'm James Milan. This is our series on the ABCs of LGBTQ Plus, and I'm joined in our studio today by two guests who I'm going to ask to introduce themselves. I'm going to give you their names. Andy Rubenson is on the far side and Valerie Overton is right here, but tell us a little bit just briefly about what you do and what organizations you represent. Great, yeah. I'm Andy Rubenson, a resident of Arlington and a commissioner on Arlington's Rainbow Commission. I also have past experience as a member of the local steering committee for the Human Rights Campaign as well as the International Board of Governors. Great. And I'm Valerie Overton, my pronounce her she her. I'm co-chair of Lex Pride, which is an organization in Lexington that works to advance social justice for LGBTQ people and all people. And I've also been an activist for civil rights and social justice for about 50 years. All right, well you just mentioned social justice Valerie and that's perfect because our topic for today is advancing social justice, you know, within the realm of LGBTQ life and rights. So I'd like to start by first identifying the kinds of areas we in another segment in this series, we talked about the legal aspects and legal protections against discrimination, but I'd like to dig down a little bit more into, you know, the everyday lived experience of people within the LGBTQ plus community and what kinds of discrimination, of hostility, of perhaps even oppression. Are experienced on a day-to-day basis and in what context. So feel free, either one of you to jump in to identify. Maybe focusing on the positives, like what are ways that we can do to make things more inclusive. So yes, there is a lot of discrimination, but it's things like how do we make our schools safer, how do we make our communities more welcoming, which Lex Pride and the Arlington Rainbow Commission, kind of our goal is to do that, to make people feel that they have a place and they're welcome in our communities. Things like families and being able to adopt children, have recognition of the family units and spousal relationships for people seeking medical care. So there are things like that that, you know, still have a ways to go, I think. Society has to kind of grow more into that. Right, exactly. I think that, you know, there are issues both at the systemic level, you know, in terms of agencies and schools and the policies around families and so forth. And then, you know, you think about the interpersonal and the community level as well. And so, for example, you know, when you are gender non-binary and there are no restrooms that are all gender, or when people, when you maybe go to the gardening club, right, and people assume that you're heterosexual and that you have an opposite sex spouse and so forth. You know, there are just ways of becoming more welcoming by thinking about your assumptions, the assumptions that you make about someone's sexual orientation and gender identity. And kind of checking those so that the language that you use and the questions that you ask and the programming that you offer, whether that's films and books and things like are those reflecting the full diversity of our community rather than a more narrow look at our community. So there are a lot of ways kind of at the interpersonal and community levels as well as kind of the systemic levels which are super important because they do affect people's everyday lives. And I think it's kind of in greening these practices. Yesterday, I got a, I sent out a work email and I have my pronouns that he has, pronouns in my email and this was actually somebody that lives in France and they're like, hey, what does this mean? And so it's even just creating kind of a social norm for things where, you know, gender neutral restrooms, the use of pronouns and by getting everyone to share those and use it, it becomes commonplace because then it's not putting people in an awkward position of having, it's like, why is this person sharing their pronouns with me? It's like, no, that's just how you do it. Right, normalizing all of this stuff is really one of the goals for advancing social justice, it seems to for sure. I'm glad you mentioned the word assumptions now because I think that that's a place where we all can do a lot more work. I think one of the things I'm always struck by when it comes to the LGBTQ community as a vulnerable community in the same way as others might be, it's just so much less visible a lot of the times for people that you are carrying this as part of your identity around with you through the world. I'm wondering if you thought, you know, what you guys have noted around assumptions that people make when again a perhaps a difference or at least a distinction about somebody else is not kind of readily visible or perceptible. Right, so we hear a lot, I mean, I think that there's both as you were talking about the systemic level and the kind of interpersonal level, you know, for example, in schools and in other settings, you know, sometimes people, whether it's educators or employers or whatever, use kind of the legal name that's on the birth certificate and those pronouns rather than the your preferred name and pronouns. And that is, you know, very the opposite of affirming, shall we say, the opposite of welcoming. And in a workplace, for example, like for some of us, it can be difficult either internally or with clients to say, well, you know, it's okay for my colleague to talk about the barbecue that they went to with their husband, but is it okay for me to talk about, you know, with my partner, what we have done and over the weekend, and or is that going to be considered like, you know, flaunting one's sexuality. Too much information. Too much information. So there's a huge disconnect between what is acceptable for heterosexual people to talk about and what is acceptable for LGBTQ people to talk about. And do you think that the onus, for instance, let's just let's suppose a hypothetical situation where I'm meeting a new person. And I'm a heterosexual man. I don't know how this person identifies him or herself or their selves. Is the should the onus be on me to seek to find that out? Or is the onus on that person say he or she is a member of the LGBTQ community who goes by certain pronouns? Should the onus be on that person to make that clear right from the outset? How how how, you know, I know we're really kind of digging into the into the weeds here. But how does that how does that work? I mean, I think people very, you know, they're very different. So some people are very forthcoming. And some people, you know, it's a journey through time. I know I've, you know, over time become much more comfortable, you know, talking about, you know, all my husband or things of that nature. But, you know, I think that the key thing is kind of try to reduce your presumptions. Like when you are asking somebody, you know, you talk about the Oh, is your spouse or, you know, so don't don't presume that like, Oh, you must be like I see you have a wedding ring on, you must be married to a to a woman. And I think that you often hear some terminology that's recently become more prevalent is like cis is like appearing to be kind of like the the norm of what you would expect a typical male to be. And not everyone is that way. And it's kind of the realization that there are folks that are gender non binary or people that that are just don't don't have that that cis appearance. And you have to just be considerate of them. So it's using consideration and also being a little more broad and and opening to other things other than your norm. Exactly. Yeah. And I think with pronouns in particular, and gender identity in particular, I think you're right that that is an area that can be really confusing for a lot of people. And so I think it really depends on context. So if you're just meeting someone in passing, you might not need to say, you know, you know, I'm Valerie, my pronouns are she, her, you know, who are you kind of thing? It depends on kind of context and relationship. And so if it's a situation where that understanding and the relationship is one where you want to kind of be respectful of that information, you know, one way to do that is just to model using your own pronouns so that if someone else wants to share that information, they can, but not pushing it, right? So, you know, want to insist that someone share that information with you if they don't want to. Right. Well, it's interesting, I have to say that, you know, speaking again as somebody who is very support, you know, wants to do the right thing in these situations. I will work and have been working not to make presumptions or assumptions about somebody else in the way that he or she might identify themselves. I also would never think that to exchange that. In other words, if you were to introduce yourself to me, I'm Valerie, my pronouns are she, her, I don't think to myself, oh, okay, so I'm James and I'm he, him. I don't do that, you know? Should I? I guess. Do you think that that would ease, you know, again, if I'm trying hard to be a good person in these interactions, is that something that would ease that? Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, as you said, trying to make things more the normal thing to do, I think it also depends a little bit on the environment you're in. You know, so we always open with our pronouns, but it's not something that I'm necessarily like when we've introduced ourselves for the segment, you know, I don't automatically think to do it, but I've automatically added to me. So it's something that I need to build on too. So it's, you know, don't feel it's a journey to be doing that. And I should be making that more of the norm, especially in situations like these. Yeah, I think that, again, it depends on context. If it's a situation where you want to learn more about someone, then I think that offering your pronouns is helpful. Or if it's a situation where perhaps you're in a meeting and people, everybody's introducing themselves, I think that's a situation where it would be good for all of us to get into the habit of introducing ourselves with pronouns. And it does take practice. It feels very awkward at first for most people. But once you get into the swing of using your pronouns for introductions, it really does become easier. So I think that sometimes what we, what I like to say is, you know, embrace the uncomfortable. You know, sometimes things are awkward and uncomfortable at first, and that's okay. It doesn't, we don't have to start out feeling comfortable and easy with all of these things. It's just a matter of, you know, working on it. But being even like being engaged with someone where you do ask about a spouse versus a husband or wife makes just, just seeing your awareness that like the society, I'm not being specific, makes it feel more comfortable for that person to be able to say, oh, it's actually my husband. Right. And I do think that that is something that regardless of the context, I do think that using non-gendered language to refer to people's spouses or families or friends and those kinds of things signifies that you're not making assumptions. So, you know, even who's in your family is really different from like, so who's your wife and those kinds of things. So clearly avoiding presumptions and assumptions, being open to, again, what kind of language will make the other person comfortable in terms of, however much they want to reveal about themselves in their situation. These are keys. Yeah. And I think that, you know, one thing that's helpful for to recognize also is that people vary a lot in their gender expression. So for example, you know, sometimes historically, like the stereotype of a lesbian has been kind of the butch, you know, more masculine presenting woman. And that's true in some cases and not in other cases. And likewise, you know, if your cisgender, your gender expression can be anywhere on the spectrum. And if you're transgender, your gender expression can be anywhere on the spectrum. And so I think that's another area where not making assumptions and recognizing that that might vary by person, whether or not you're cisgender or transgender, and also by culture. I think it's really important to recognize that gender expression and other kinds of identity look can look different based on your cultural background. I just wanted before we wrap things up, I wanted to make sure that on the topic of advancing social justice for LGBTQ people that we haven't left anything unsaid that needs to be said. So I just wanted to invite you in an open way to add anything in that we haven't covered. Well, you know, one thing I'd like to say, a little call out to the Rainbow Commission is, you know, the whole purpose of having the Arlington Rainbow Commission is to create a more welcoming community. So we're able to do things like hold a pride event and other community events. Tonight we're doing karaoke and cocoa at the senior center. But we have we have ongoing events. We have craft stays and things where we bring people of all ages together to do things. And just it's kind of creating that community and making people know that they are welcome. So I think that's one one important thing that we can do as a community to kind of support one another. Yeah, I think that's really important. And I think that a lot of these events, you don't have to be LGBTQ to go to them. It's like allies. We love our allies, right? And so bringing people together is really important. And also whether it's through the Arlington Rainbow Commission or through Lex Pride, there are a lot of resources available. So you can look on our websites for resources. And we also offer educational events, awareness events, trainings, either for general audiences or professional development workshops on these topics. And also, you know, there are things like book lists and movie lists and things like that so that if you are someone who's working in a community organization who has these kinds of offerings, just to remember to kind of try to be inclusive in your offerings. And I love the fact that you've both described the organizations that you work with primarily as inclusive that you, as you say, love your allies, etc. Because as we well know, people's identities, partake of many different facets, and one sexual orientation, one gender identity, and you know, many other things go into that. So there's nothing, you know, nobody wants to be identified only by one of the things that they that they that is true about themselves. So all right, well, thank you very much for the work that you do. And thanks also for sharing your your knowledge, your expertise, your understanding and compassion with us today. Okay, thank you for Andy Rubinson and Valerie Overton. I'm James Milan. Thank you for joining us. And we'll see you next time.