 Welcome back. It's still the breakfast on PLOS TV Africa. We're going straight to the northwest region, Kaduna State, to be precise, where 233 teachers have been sucked by the state government and precisely the government is actually planning on the competency test next year. We have joined us to look at all of the issues and what's going to happen to the teachers out there once that are left. We have Ibrahim Dalhattu and he is with the State Universal Basic Education Board. Good morning to you Ibrahim Dalhattu. Many thanks for staying with us. All right let's just dive straight into the issue right now. From what we understand 233 teachers have so far been sucked from Kaduna State or because they presented or have fake certificates. But the question for me right now is that how come this was not discovered before now knowing that competency tests have been done by the state government? How come we are having some sort of a recurrence if you may? Well on the issue of this first certificate I think that it is the government that employed this our teachers and that the NUT will not depend any any person or teacher who is having a fake certificate because we don't encourage our teaming members to have a fake certificate. In this regard we must commend the government efforts on pushing out these fake teachers. But what we are saying is that whoever is typing the new certificate definitely the NUT will come and see how will resolve the issue. And remember the issue of this fake certificate they have press brought it out because we say we will not go for that confidentiality test. And they should know and our listeners should also understand that we as the GCN leaders we don't encourage having teachers we take that certificate. Okay I just correct an impression right now I actually said that Ibrahim Dalhattu is with a state to a universal budget education but he is actually the chairman of the Nigerian Union of Teachers in Kaduna State. Go ahead. Alright so I'd like us I'd like you to take us through how you know this 233 teachers were discovered with fake certificates. I don't know how they have discovered that they were having a fake certificate. Remember at the union we don't employ teachers it is either their government or the previous government that have employed them and if at all they have found out that they were having a fake certificate it is they welcome development and they should be fit out. What we are trying to say here is that whoever is genuinely having that certificate and we will not hold our hand to see that they were getting out of the job just like that. We will look to it and we will call for their certificate and we too at the union will verify their certificate. So who then is responsible for ensuring that you don't have fake teachers or teachers with fake certificates or teachers that are not competent in the system? Well you see I told them that the issue of competent teachers as they were operating was that they were thinking that our teachers don't have a certificate and they were not qualified and the basic question that we should ask is that who employed them? Was it not the government that employed them and did the government give them training or retraining? You see in every profession there is need for training and retraining and from there if at all there is any gap then that gap will be filled by training and retraining that is our point and that most at times they want to conduct a competent teacher and the test is on cognitive aspect. What about the issue of psychomotor and an effective domain as an educationist? That's why we say this time around we will not allow ourselves to subject ourselves to that competent teacher because we just understand that the more it's behind that competent teacher was to reduce the number of workforce in the in the space and as far as the issue of psychomotor because just like I have said, NUT will not protect who is found to have that certificate. We don't encourage that in NUT. Alright Mr. Dalhatt, the question right now, Mr. Dalhatt. Whoever is doing a job with the universal basic education as a teacher then he or she is our member and if it happens he or she has that certificate that is not our concern and let the government teach them out. Alright Mr. Dalhatt, the concern for for us right now is that you're talking about and not wanting to be involved in this competency test but two hundred and three teachers you know have actually been sucked and you represent the NUT in Keduna State which actually represents like an umbrella body for all teachers in your state but is it possible that these two hundred and three teachers must have been part of your you know your union and as such and there's no such of a detection to know that they were not really competent. How could this just have passed without under your watch and you would not know that these teachers were not really competent or qualified you know at that? That's just one of the mistakes that the universal basic education board made as far as teachers is qualified because they were not involving all the stakeholders had it been they have consulted us what they were intended to do then we will help them to teach the all qualified teachers in the system that they didn't involve us they have done it unilaterally then definitely we will vote for the certificate of those three two hundred and three teachers that they said they were having that best certificate and we will ensure that if I thought they were their certificate were genu then we will protect their interest this is one of our cardinal responsibility as a union but whoever among them is not having that genu certificate let me go. These teachers are they part of the NUT these two hundred and three teachers that were sucked are they part of the NUT in Kaduna state? What? The two hundred and three teachers that were sucked by the state government are they parts of the NUT in Kaduna state? Yes they are part of the NUT why because they were our members and they were your members so you did not know they didn't have universal basic education or at the state minister of education then you are a member of NUT automatic the law organized that. So you would not say that they were not our members they were our members if at all the government found out that they were not having that big the new certificate or the registered qualification then it is our responsibility and duty to to found out whether it is true what the government is saying or not if it is true then we will protect their interest and if if at all they don't have the genu certificate then there is no way we can protect their interest. Well but the government is saying that you know they have done their verification that this certificate they have contacted this institution where this teachers claim to have graduated from and they have found that this certificate did not emanate from this institution that is actually the case now. Actually the kind of the way a man has to be conducted themselves is that they were under rating the union. Why is it that I said they were under rating the union is that I think they have involved us in verifying the certificate of our members then definitely we will get to know the truth of the matter but at this time around it is only the moment that they were having fake certificate and we will not agree that they were having that fake certificate until we conduct our verification to go to the institution where they said they were having that fake certificate and let the institution verify to us or tell us that they were having actually that fake certificate then from there we will agree yes they were having the fake certificate. Remember NUT does not employ a teacher it is the government that employed him so it is also the responsibility of the government to employ the proper and appropriate person to be employed as a teacher. So you are saying that this is an indictment on the part of the government who should be responsible for ensuring that you have the right and qualified persons in the system is that what you are saying? Yes. So what is the fate of the teachers at this point in time? I mean those I don't know if we should be calling them teachers who presented fake certificate 233. You know just like I have said that 233 how sure are we that they were having that fake certificate? Has it been the superimpose in the process of getting to know whether they were having that fake certificate or not then this kind of argument will not be arrived. So this is the problem that we are having with them they were not involving all the stakeholders in their activities but had it been they have involved us they would pitch them out and would after 10 years they were having that fake certificate. Alright Mr Dalhatsu let me just get some information clear now concerning all of that from all that you have said all the foregoing there is a bit of disconnect between stakeholders in the education sector in Kaduna State you said that you guys were not carried along when all this recruitment process was done and you said that the NUT does not employ teachers but the government, fine we agree. So but right now what's the true picture at the NUT in Kaduna State when you have meetings and when you have teachers in your fora what do you guys discuss specifically and how do you ensure that quality is actually showed to the students who are actually the end users of your services? You see just like I have said NUT as a board member but I cannot recall the time when Subeb invited us for a meeting discussing issues relating to education in the state but had it been the way we were involved then we would provide proper suggestions and ideas where this thing would be ensured that it has been done the way it ought to have been but at the union we want to reiterate again to prevent the effort of the government of fishing hours who so ever is not qualified to be called a teacher in the system it's true that we will have a quality education in the state. Alright Ibrahim, then how to let's also talk about, I mean you are the chairman of the NUT what are the challenges of features in Kaduna State do you have all the challenges are there other concerns that teachers are faced with? The challenges are teachers faced in Kaduna State but they are not at all, actually you see the teachers were not given their permanent appointment confirmation later then they were not enjoying any increment apart from that one one buying register the NUT, the NUT plan was so ever and if you are going to the school you will find out that the environment is not so conducive these are some of the challenges that the teachers in Kaduna State are faced with and the issue of giving 30,000 million euros Ibrahim, then how to can you hear us? I have done something that the government should have done something tangible to correct all these anomalies Alright Mr Dalhattu in your exchange so far you have talked about how the NUT in Kaduna State is dissociating itself from the competency test with the government has actually proposed or is set to sometime next year what exactly are your reasons? You said, I didn't hear you very well there is a planned competency test for teachers in Kaduna State what's the position of the NUT in as much as you have said that you don't intend to be involved or take part in that particular test what are your reasons? Some of the reasons that we said we would not participate in the competency test was that we were informed by the last competency test that was carried out by Subeb you know in that competency test there was a promise that whoever is failing will not fail the test that there is a need for training for that person and there is a training for them again and there is not any issue of fighting the test has been conducted just one day we found out that our members have been found you see all the promises that have been made the government did not fulfill that promise that's why this time around when they are trying to conduct this competency test we are saying no to each why because for the past experience that we were having we know that they want to reduce the workforce it's not the quality of teaching they are after they are after reducing the number of workers in the state and remember in that 2017 or 2018 that the newly recruited teachers they came out and told the world that they have recruited the most competent teachers in a various why what brought the issue of competency test again are you trying to say that you are contradicting yourself that they are not confident at the time when you say that you have gone or you have employed thank you we have to let you go at this point in time thank you so much we would have to let you go that's for the want of time we hope that we will have another time where we can talk about this Ibrahim Dunhal too of the NUT in Kaduna state many thanks for stepping the brakes down we head straight to our second conversation where we will be looking at Libya's presidential and parliamentary elections please stick around