 Is this still too dark? No, it's good. We're going to go live now. OK. OK, good evening. Simone, how nice to be with you. How are you? This is Medea Benjamin with Code Pink, and we'll be in conversation with Simone Chun, who is a professor and also a member of the Korea Peace Network and a member of Women Across the DMZ. We were together in South Korea in May. In fact, we were buddies in the buddy system. So it's wonderful to talk to you tonight. And thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for inviting me. So there's a lot of confusion about what is happening between the US and North Korea. And I wondered if you could give us an update of what has happened since the summit between Donald Trump and Kim Jong-un? First of all, I think we should also point out that what has not happened, that is, there has been no missile test. There is no nuclear test from North Korea. And also, another very important thing will be the suspension of the US-Korea war game, joint military exercises. And also, there has been no really harsh bellicose rhetoric between North Korea and the United States. And we take it for granted, but these are important. And going back to what happened since the Singapore summit, two major developments. One is the one that we will probably talk more about in depth later is Secretary of State Pompeo's visit to North Korea, which there has been some controversy. But still, nevertheless, this was the first, the highest level talk after the Singapore summit. And this, in spite of all the criticism and controversies that is raised, what you are hearing is that there has been very frank talk between North Korea and the United States. And we can talk more about the Pompeo visit later. And what came out, the second one is obviously the most important one, that is the general military office level of talks between North Korea and the United States at the Pyeongchang, which then led to the agreement of the repatriation of American soldiers. Remainings of American soldiers were unaccounted. So these are the important development. And with regard to repatriation of those soldiers, looks like probably on July 27, which will be 65th anniversary of the Armistice of the Korean War. They're halted to Korean War. There may be about 55 remains of US soldiers will be returned from North Korea. And so these are very significant development, again, in spite of all the criticism and pessimistic view. So I think we should focus on for us. I think we should not take it for granted all the progress that have been made. Can you just explain a little more about the remains of the US soldiers? These are soldiers who were killed during the Korean War. So sometime between 1950 and 1953, how many remains do they think that North Korea has? Why does this take so long to resolve? Yeah, first of all, I think the estimate's about currently about 7,700 soldiers who are unaccounted. And we're not sure exactly how many North Koreans have right now. But it depending on, this has been obviously the important thing to do again. We have to remember this has been almost 11 years since the last attempt for the repatriation of those soldiers. So as I said, the first returning of those remains will be July 27. We're talking about about 55. And the reason why it has taken so long is obviously with the complete breakdown of talk between North Korea and the United States. You remember the entire even Obama era where the strategic patients really did not lead to any substantial talk between two United States and North Korea? That is I think the biggest cause for the lack of cooperation. And as I said again, I said this almost the first time in 11 years that we are this very important humanitarian issues that are addressed. And even this one, as we saw, this was I think the important we have to remember is that this was one of the most concrete agreement between they came out from the Singapore summit. And the fact that we could now start, I think this is great news. And again, long back to your question, why it took so long? It's basically with the harsh reality. Is there lack of a diplomacy between a United States and North Korea, even on this humanitarian issue? And what I heard from Korean media is that during the high military general level of a talk held in just a few days ago, Secretary of the Spokesperson Secretary of State said that it was very productive. North Korea did not cause any conditions. It was very good meeting. So I think that we're going to expect a very speedy progress with regard to this particular negotiation. And one more thing, I think we should also remember that I recall that between the United States and United States had the repatriation of those remains from during Vietnam era. It created a lot of goodwill and trust building, which led to a normalization over between the United States and Vietnam. So I think this could be obviously served as a similar sort of incentive. Now, you said that since the summit, there hasn't been Bellicose rhetoric. But it was reported in the US press that even though Mike Pompeo said it was a productive visit when he went to North Korea, that the North Koreans came out and said that the US was using gangster-like tactics. How do you reconcile that? You know what, that was a little bit of an exaggeration. And what I'm hearing is that the North Korea was obviously really a stress in need for the security guarantee from the United States in the formal either having some kind of political declaration among North and South Korea and the United States that ends the Korean War, preferably as soon as possible, preferably even July 27 during the 65th anniversary of the Armistice of Korean War, but which, you know, obviously is not going to happen, it's too soon. But the United States apparently insist on Pompeo, is insisting on more de-nucleotation first, and then lifting economic sanctions, and et cetera. So close to, I don't know Pompeo insist on CBID, but then explain what CBID is, please. Yeah, I mean, the basic is complete, you know, a verifiable, irreversible de-nuclearization, which is, you know, many critics will say this is non-starter, right? And which has been the policy of the United States and which really, in fact, it was that, you know, that the failure of a breakdown of a previous negotiation. So according to the report that there has been the main issue, and however, you know, as the New York Times, you know, the way they put it, games like tactic, that has been even, not only it was an exaggeration, but it was also a mistranslation. It was not an accurate translation of North Korea's statement. And in the North Korea, but there was looks, more like a rubber-like, you know, phrase, that will be more accurate. And, but nevertheless, I think that one other, that I've heard from Korean sources that, especially actually from those who are very, following the development, they said that this was actually, North Korea and the United States had a very frank discussion. And they said it was actually, you know, North Korea gave a clear sort of a, clearest sort of idea, in regard to what they would like to, you know, what they want in this denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula issue. So I think that there was a, it was a little bit, you know, biased report over US media. I don't think that there was an actress of, you know, portrayal of the Pompeo's visit. But you do agree that there's a fundamental difference between the North Koreans wanting the peace treaty first, and then denuclearization, and the US wanting the denuclearization to lead to a peace treaty. Indeed, imagine that the way North Korea, the way United States want is the, you know, denuclearization first, and then lifting sanctions, and then eventually as some hardliners like to have as a reward, right, as a peace treaty. Imagine, you know, the thing that we have to remember is the Korean War has not ended, as the United States can, it is a Korean state of war. If the United States want, any time it can, you know, start war, you know, right away. And North Korea, even the reason why North Korea developed nuclear weapons, you know, you have to remember this is, although some people may not agree with that, it was for the defense, it was for their survival. As you recall, you know, after the collapse of Soviet Union, the, you know, the, the disintegration of the, you know, Cold War, you know, South Korea was able to normalize with now the Russia, South Korea was able to normalize with China. So in the Northeast Asia, you will call that, you know, Cold War really has ended. The only where the Cold War still remain is basically North Korea relationship with the United States and North Korea and Japan. So this is, so that's why, you know, after the collapse of Soviet Union, North Korea has, you know, has a very, that this, their insecure has a tremendous increase. And if you believe that North Korea's development pursuit of nuclear weapon is sort of a survival, it is, it is logical to, to provide some, you know, very, you know, the security guarantee which North Korea wants. So I think that if you look at the South, what's happening right now, it looks like we will see some kind of political declaration signed among the heads of a three country that is North and South Korea and United States. It could come as early as maybe August, maybe, or at least in September at the United Nations. So what that means is that, as we pointed out, as I pointed out earlier, you know, US wants to keep nuclearization first, but North Korea would want some kind of a phased, synchronized approach. And with a very credible, you know, security guarantee from the United States. And also most importantly, one thing that we really have to remember, especially from the Singapore summit is establishing peace regime, not only on the Korean peninsula and the entire Northeast Asia. And some might say, what is this peace regime means? Peace regime means a little bit, it's broader. What that means is that not only denuclearization of North Korea, it'll be denuclearization of the entire Korean peninsula and also the Northeast Asia and normalization among these countries, especially normalization between Japan, North Korea, normalization between United States and North Korea and having North Korea as this right now, as you know, that's completely kind of that is isolated, embed those North Korea economy within Northeast Asia economic system. So that what it means is that peace regime. So I think that that's probably what North Korea wants and we'll see if the United States can accommodate or support that. Well, what is this agreement that you talk about that might be signed in September consist of? Yeah, I could be wrong, but I think there's good indication that it might happen. So what it is is that it will be literally it is symbolic gesture political declaration among three countries, North and South Korea and United States and possibly China. What it means is that we're literally saying that North Korean war has ended. What that will mean, it will serve as an interim phase before fully signing a formal peace treaty, right? So peace treaty, as you recall, you will need a United States Senate has to ratify, right? So especially at this climate where, you know, we have a democratic Congress that is not so supporting Donald Trump and also North Korea policy in general. So it will be a little bit hard. So it will take a longer time for to have a full formal peace treaty. So what they are trying to do, especially from South Korea and also to some North Korea is that have this political somewhat symbolic but nevertheless declaration says Korean war has ended. Then it will serve an interim a security guarantee to North Korea. What they will do is to immediately it will really facilitate more greater inter-Korean engagement and also it will have a huge impact personally because we will see sort of almost permanent suspension of US South Korea war game which will also help North Korea. They will, you know, every time when the US North South Korea engaging in this war game, North Korea has to mobilize the agent. They have to ship all their, you know, resource they have for responding to this very bellicose war game. So I think that if there's a permanent suspension of a war game, it will also help North Korea to ship their, you know, more focus on the economy rather than their response to military game. And also it will, the political declaration will also tremendously also help to even, you know, maybe lifting some of the travel events for imposed on Americans, citizens to North Korea, et cetera. So I think that, again, going back to your question, this will serve entering political security guaranteed in North Korea, but nevertheless, you will have another, you will be step-by-step that will eventually more lead to a permanent peace treaty. Well, it's hard to imagine with the atmosphere in the United States, the criticism of President Trump for the summit itself, and then for putting a halt on the military exercises and the way that it's been portrayed as capitulation on the part of Trump for him to be able to sign anything in September that would seem like further compromise before there is any significant movement around de-nuclearization. So why is the media and the Democrats, what is the position that they've been taking and how difficult is that making the next moves? I, at this point, as a former unification minister of South Korea who served in the, you know, Foreign President Kim Dae-joon for implementation policy point out that he said, there are right now the biggest obstacles for the peace process of the Korean Peninsula, America media and New York and security establishment. And also he pointed out there was a Democratic Congress, as I actually, as a part of a Korea peace network, I visited senators from our group, six senators, right after the Singapore summit. And as I mentioned in the several other interviews, I was shocked by the truly lack of support from Democrats. We usually associate Democrats more for peace and for people and democracy, but here there's so much kind of obstructionist. You know, we already know that they're simply, you know, they're stronger anti-Trump sentiment, anything Trump does cannot be supported. And also in the military, even the very liberal so-called progressive media, they point out that, you know, basically they're regretting North Korea issue is so biased and so there has been really, this is almost impossible to get the truth about the, you know, North Korea. So I think those are really, really, you know, obstacles. But that being said, though, I think, you know, Trump, he's, if you look at what he has done so far and also statement that he made today, I think that there's a good chance that they're, you know, still he might be able to sign what this particular political declaration that end Korean war. A, they already agreed in the Singapore summit, B, he also mentioned that, you know, before even the Singapore summit, he mentioned several times Korean war, you know, let's, you know, he mentioned about ending Korean war. And also there is what I'm interviewing is that sort of negotiation diplomatic sort of negotiation, especially from South Korea to, you know, based to trying to convince the United States to, you know, sign the political declaration to end Korean war. So, and one more rationale will be this argument made by some Korean analysts are actually they're signing this political declaration that end Korean war and also even peace treaty will expedite the process of denuclearization of North Korea. And actually, in fact, it benefits many, many, you know, as people are making army, it actually helped, you know, what the United States wants. So I think if you make the, you know, make such a strong case and educate the American public and there's enough support, probably I think that there is a, I see it as 50-50 we will have that, you know, declaration. So given the opposition in the US media and the opposition from a lot of the Democrats in Congress, when you and I were there and we were there with women across the DMZ, the message that we were getting from the South Koreans was no matter what they do in the US and even if Trump tries to push back the peace treaty has left the station and North and South are moving forward. So can you tell us what's happening in terms of moves on the part of the North and the South? You know, I was just, in fact, just today I was just reading following some of the inter-Korean, I mean, latest inter-Korean initiative. It's just almost every day we have this, you know, update. So, for instance, it was in July 17th. The Koreans are, there's a conference about the possibility of inter-Korean IT cooperation. So what it means is that now this is, you know, a conference by the business, right, groups. And they're proposing that something North Korea should have joined a project about the IT. And also there's their forming task force. They're talking about reviving, resuming the opening of the Kaesung Industrial Park. There's also- Can you explain what the Kaesung Industrial Park? Kaesung Industrial Park, that was the inter-Korean, obviously it was a very successful inter-Korean joint business project. What this is, the Koreans will provide the capital, the investment, and also the, all the technology, and also the machines that produce the, mostly the light consumer goods, textile companies, et cetera. And the North Korea will ingest them, obviously Kaesung is in North Korea, will provide the land and the labor and also other materials. So this has been, this was part of the Sunshine Project from the Sunshine period when Korea to Korea, had the opening policy. And this was shut down by previous president, Park Geun-hye, who was impeached. And so right now the Koreans are, all business groups are very strongly, people are expecting that the opening of the Kaesung Industrial Park very soon, maybe in the fall. There's also inter-Korean railroads, a venture, which what they perceive is that, Koreans can, if you look at some of those, especially with the UN sanctions, investment infrastructure can be exempt from the UN sanctions. So Koreans are not only dead, Koreans, the two Koreas are really met in June, they agreed on working on that the reopening though it's a railroad that connects North and South Korea. And there is a, probably you already know about the unification basketball game and also there's going to be inter-Korean theater groups, the cinemas, arts, et cetera. So these, we don't hear much of us from the US media, but if you look at Korean news, almost every day there's some, there's initiatives and very concrete steps being made. And if that one Korean analyst says, we don't know when the, some of the little bit more ideal and optimistic view, they say, we don't know when the sanctions going to be lifted, right? So we have to, what they're saying is that we should all get ready, right? So as soon as when there are more opportunity, we should just be ready to start. So I think that as you and I heard in Korea, Koreans, whether Americans are on board or not, this peace train has left. And the analysis that we made was, while the train, you cannot really, I mean, it's hard to make a U-turn, right? Is once the train has left, you can do my stuff, but it's hard to make going back. So that is the idea. And I really see that there's this enormous opportunity and commitment. And what about family reunification? Can you explain what that issue is when the last programs were and when that might start again? You know, again, this is another really, I mean, something that touches the hearts of many Koreans. And there's, you know, as you know, the Korean War left about 10 million separated family. As you call the treasure of this is the most people at the time didn't know that their separation would be permanent, right? So it has been literally 65, 68 years. And so we're gonna have, again, one of the progress from the permanent of decoration and also Singapore summit is that, you know, resuming this family reunion, we're talking about, since I would say about since the formal registration of a separated family started in Korea, helps more than 150,000 separated family have registered. And, you know, less than 20,000 people were able to have some kind of reunion through the in-person reunion or video. And anyway, so in August, as a result of the permanent of decoration, in August, there's gonna be, you know, we're gonna resume the reunion of the separate family members. The problem is, you know, each side they're gonna see only 10 family members, right? Not the 100, I'm sorry, 100. So it'll be only 200 family members. Out of it, we're talking about really thousands of family members. And in South Korea, it will be done in the lottery system. So basically most people who are the separated family, there are, you know, more than, you know, 67% of them are actually about 80s older. And most likely, you know, very tragically, they won't be able to, you know, most people will pass, you know, pass away without ever being able to meet their loved ones in North. And, but anyway, again, this is the family reunion has been halting since then because, you know, since the, during the conservative administrations, and now we're just about to start and it's gonna be August will be the, you know, first in years. And again, the problem is though, you know, it's only one time reunion, North Korean family ever, you know, was able to meet again. And these are very selected, you know, groups, very, very small, small number of people will be able to reunite with their loved ones. And moreover, and in the United States also, you know, that we have Korean Americans who have relatives, who have family members in North Korea, right? 100,000 Korean Americans who cannot, you know, who could not, who have not been able to reunite with their loved ones in North Korea. So this is a huge humanitarian disaster and crisis. I think that we should really, we should really not, you know, stress. So you've talked about the, you mentioned the sanctions, but the, could you talk a little bit about the terrible effect that the sanctions are still having on the North Korean people and then maybe let us know if you feel like the Chinese have eased up on all, on those sanctions at all and what that might do to alleviate some of the suffering. Yeah, what I want, you know, I want to actually start maybe a little bit good news. According to the, here I'm reading, reported with the ladies to survey done, the news from UNICEF, looks like there has been some progress, but never that this is the dire condition. Progress in what, Simu? Progress in the, you know, in the, especially in the, some of those, you know, worst humanitarian crisis in North Korea during, you know, like the compare with North Korea was under famine in 1990. So we're in that, it's not as bad as that time, but nevertheless, this is here, I'm looking at very concrete because of specifically, the most important one is here because of all this very hard line policy, lack of engagement, lack of diplomacy. This report says that in 2017, it says only 31% of the requested funding, I'm talking about UNICEF, right? Request funding has been received. And 2018 the funding, again, these are the, you know, these are funding, you go to most of vulnerable people, you know, like a pregnant woman and infant and elderly and sick. In 2017, only 9% of the, some of those requested funding from UNICEF has, you know, has been coming, has been received. What do you mean that this is direct result of a UN, US led and also South Korea is participating in other countries has been sanctioned. And as we pointed out, you know, research, so again and again, again, sanctions, really do not affect the elite. Sanctions do not really affect those nuclear programs. Sanctions, it is a form of warfare. It is mostly, you know, it affects the most vulnerable people in North Korea. And as soon as I do 10.3 million people or 41% of the total population in North Korea undernourished. And I met with doctor, American doctor who went to, you know, who has been visiting North Korea annual, you know, a missionary visit and taking care of those patients visiting North Korea. And he told me he was just shocking in a major, we're talking a major, you know, hospital in North Korea, very basic things aren't there, clean water, even penicillin. And so this has again, you know, this is human made, man made, if not American policy made, disaster. And also I think I read another report about, you know, those, you know, American NGOs who have been doing amazing job for years, they could not even, you know, they have to even stop their, you know, humanitarian engagement with North Korea. So again, I think going back to your point, I actually agree, disagree with the other people who says, you know, wow, denuclearization first, and you know, sanctions as a real data. But I would say as one of our, you know, our delegation to Korea in May, you know, to me, these sanctions against that specifically effect that have a devastating effect on the most vulnerable people in North Korea should be lifted immediately, you know, before even before the need to continue the nuclearization process. I think I cannot stress enough about that. Yeah, so maybe as we wrap up, you could tell us any other messages or things that people can do. It seems like you've been saying that people should contact their Congress people and say that they support the talks, the denuclearization and the peace process and that sanctions should be lifted. Are there any other things you suggest that people do? One thing I think we should, we wanted to, I want to emphasize the importance of, you know, this process. This one is very somewhat unique and it's very special. It is especially, you know, led by two Koreas in my view. It is two Koreas initiative, no matter which way to look at it. And I feel that I have never seen such sort of a, you know, momentum that and two Koreas have been very, you know, under the harshest right now, the sanctions regime, again, that this current sanction is almost like, as you know, is like economic embargo against North Korea. And, you know, people like to compare with, oh, you know, how about the, you know, the sunshine policy? There's really, I would say, even no comparison between the political climate of the sunshine policy and now. Right now is the most two Koreas engaging, trying under the harshest and the most difficult condition. So I think that has to be pointed out. And in spite of that, as you know, you and I are following very closely. I mean, since, especially from this year, the Pyeongchang Olympic and through the permanent declaration and the Singapore summit, what we have seen is that in a way the Korean people who have really the strong will and determination, as we point out the earlier with the analogy of peace train, no matter what United States is going to do or whatever, even all the hardliners or even media and also maybe the Congress that may not be so supportive to Korea are determined to move forward. And we, I think we should really give full support to the Koreans who are on the ground, especially those people you and I met, those women's group and those right now in Korea, all over there's young people, youth groups are, you know, mobilizing to sign, to demand peace treaty, a peace letter. And so we really, I hope the US media really more focused on people in Korea who are doing this very difficult, but nevertheless a very courageous work on the ground. And then we can, you and I and also in our groups and us in United States can amplify so that, you know, A, lift the sanctions especially as soon as possible, especially those that affect the most vulnerable people. And secondly, take the give a, you know, secure guarantee peace treaty, political decree that end the Korean war. And also, you know, American Congress can support, members of Congress can support those resolution that is right now in the US Congress about the union of separate family members in United States. And I hope the resolution go to the Senate, the Senate version so we can support it. And most importantly, I think that bipartisan support for the current initiative. And I think that should be interesting. They will interest, you know, they'll benefit not only Koreans and also for the United States as well. So I hope that I still remain optimistic and I hope that we continue, you know, fight and in solidarity with the amazing people. Wonderful. Well, thank you for bringing it back to the issue that this is really initiative that has been moved by waves of people in the Korean Peninsula and that no matter what people think about Donald Trump, this is about the people in the Korean Peninsula and that we have to love peace more than we dislike Donald Trump. So let's move forward. You can sign the People's Peace Treaty on the CodePink.org website. And thank you so much for Simone for a wonderful recap of what's been happening and a lot of enthusiasm about the way forward. Thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye.