 Friday afternoon folks Ted Rolston downtown Honolulu here in our think tech studios with our show where the drone leads and In the east coast studio of think tech studios Hawaii in Sturbridge, Georgia. We have standing by dr. Mike Brown of one way one world one way Mike Welcome on board the show again Thanks, and Ted, I'm in Stockbridge Stockbridge. Well, we'll push in the stockade. How's that? Halfway in between and it's evident Mike that the Sun has set on the east coast judging by the color of the Of the outside and in the environment there, but you have all blue going you got blue lights You got your blue kung fu outfit on and so night has fallen and behavior Deviations start to show up. Anyway, Mike. Hey welcome on board again and Dr. Mike Brown is an incredibly interesting individual who sees Change in an interesting light. He's changed in the light of disruption and how we how disruption needs to be disruption Automatically accompanies new technology. It also has to be dealt with as Organizations and users start dealing with new technology UAS, which is the subject of our show or groans is all about new technology We happen to have one on the table here one of our Thanksgiving table guests has joined us It's a gate wing professional mapping system a UAS on manned air system on her drone And the reason I have it here on the table is just to open the discussion that Mike and I are about to have But in the in the show last week, we had a gentleman named like a mortis on and his associate Kainoa M&S and we were talking about the Community involvement aspect and the reason we need to think of community involvement and the reason we have Mike on is But we have something novel and different and new such as what we're seeing here It has to be introduced into the user community and into the benefiting community in a very careful way to make sure that the proper positives are understood and any negatives are Understood also and managed and kept out of control in a very simple example If you saw one surveyor on your street doing some surveying No big deal if you saw two surveyors they kind of come in pairs that makes a lot of sense If you saw 500 surveyors on your street, you might wonder exactly what's going on If you saw one of these drones somewhere nearby you might Say hey one's okay. What if what if you saw 500? It's a whole different way to think in a and there's a The the incorporation of this in our daily thought process Has to be carefully managed and that extends to the community of youths of drones Which is going to be public safety the environmental people agriculture All the organizations that can benefit from surveillance and from information gathered by drones are still going to have to deal with the Community involvement and the incorporation of this kind of technology into their Business operations just because it is novel and new and doesn't replace something that's already there a better Telephone replacing an old telephone that's easy, but something like this It does not replace something that's existing but actually adds a whole new dimension of operation is can be frightening and certainly Stressful and therefore has to be properly managed that sounds like disruption and for disruption You always turn to who dr. Mike Brown dr. Mike Brown of destruction Like in blue there you are That's the consequence got it so Mike you were just at the at the International Association of Emergency Managers meeting last week and presented to that group a View of the disruptive aspects that I was bringing at the game. How'd that go? It went well. I was a little worried because Part of what I was trying to get across to them is this is that right now? There's a lot of frustration amongst the emergency managers for and public safety individuals because Their feeling is though they've been kicked to the side because they want what's on your desk right now They're saying we need these tools because there's a paradigm shift this new tool changes The way that we can conduct all of our mission areas Response recovery all of that, you know, it's we know what it can do for the agricultural community for the real estate community for all of those Different areas, but what it does for us we see as being life-saving and and it adds to the Quality of life and helps us to mitigate Certain issues by being able to have these and so I'm hearing Why do I have to jump through hoops to get the co-op? Why is this exemption and why won't my governor give me a waiver? And and so they don't understand it So what I tried to do at the conference was to explain to them in a way that they would understand what is occurring and The method that I used Was things that they are used to lessons learned observations and best practices now everyone in the room could relate to that and They were very excited about that and I said well You know you have to look at Congress and what Congress has stuck with is what we call with bounded rationality I said I know that that's a strange comment having rationality in Congress in the same sentence I said but the bottom line is we can look at this from a rational action Perspective and so I said we're not going to go into rational theory I said but understand this there's a couple of conditions that need to be met in order for you to make rational decisions and I said what they add up to our lessons learned So when I started doing that I said if Congress right now has no lessons learned It I think I think the bill went off So you're breaking this thing down to sort of an executable strategy as opposed to a frightening Barrier yes, because what happened was I you know they want to know why there's such a delay Well, I told them that usually we are always complaining about having top-down Applications where something is decided at the federal level and then shoved down our throat and I said as we know all Response all preparedness Starts at the local level the Stafford act it all tells us that we all learn this in academics It starts from the lowest level local level and we appreciate bottom up And I said this is an opportunity right now for those of you who do have access Who have met the requirements for part 107 or coat? Got your coas got your exemptions and your using these start documenting and Coordinating with the with the national emergency response and rescue training center with the with the Ted Rousen or the person Who I call uncle start connecting with the national Disaster preparedness training center and in FAA. They're not your enemies What we're doing right now is we're a period of structured Lessons learn and if I can enter introduce to another comment there community involvement What you just spoke of is about six different communities that are all involved and in some way relate and overlay on top of each other Not completely, but to a certain extent so what you're saying is Involve yourself with all of these be open be communicative put information out including things that don't work failures problems Let them be shared as well That's lesson learned if you know you if you're gonna do it We look I will be the two examples I use and it resonated with them was the in the 1970s We had duck and cover and Then we had on the other side with civil defense. We had the national We had natural disasters Remember the governor's got together and said we got a problem You're giving us all this money for duck and cover because we might get nuke from mutually assured destruction What we really need to use this federal funding for is for natural disasters Can we do that so they developed a dual use system where they said, okay? You can use this funding and their Jimmy Jimmy Carter came around and then we've got FEMA and Barabing by the boom so we developed the system where we we learned well that happened again The most significant time that happened was fire scope with the firefighters in California where they left their egos at the door They said look guys We've got a pool or resources together in order to try to deal with the situation But they learned there was a lesson learned well, that's what we're doing now But this this time it's more structured what's happening now is that Congress has said You're the whipping boy is the FAA let's stop whipping them what they've done is the best They can they've issued us a couple of guidelines some policies that we can deal with and they're going please work with us to tell us How we should approach it because there are so many alternatives How do we deal with protection of privacy? How do we deal with the retailers and the manufacturers that want to sell these items? How do we deal with the people that want to use these for recreation? And then how do we deal with these people for for for that want to use these for public safety? Well all the alternatives and different issues are out there Those have to be weighed in what's called a cost-to-benefit ratio not necessarily an equal economic Standards but also for social standards, which means the values some people value Their privacy and don't want their neighbor to be utilizing a drone Well when needs when Congress finally gives us a law or some guidelines Everybody all these situations have to be weighed so we get the best Possible law for all those six different layers of the communities and players that you were talking about With the most benefit not everybody's gonna win what we have to do is identify that benefit Somehow characterize it write it down and put it in simple terms so people can understand it I like the point you made earlier about The FAA having been the whipping boy for a certain several years here now FAA came through and has made massive changes They put the 333 exemptions on the street two years ago But 107 on the street this year and educational interpretation the FAA has done all they can and they're actually doing even more our state here in Hawaii along with Oregon and Alaska is involved in one of the FAA test centers are seven across the country so issues at I AEM or the International Association of Chiefs of Police or any disaster agency Can bring forward to us the test states can be turned into test programs to go find that relevant information about how that Device kids head that's part of the problem What a question came up from one of the person that was in the audience and he said well dr. Brown let me ask you if we Do this and we had these observations and I said I told myself you know what? These seven test centers is one thing, but that's a controlled environment What George Purdy did recently your guy there at the airport there tonight? That's that's fine And we need that information because that gives us an idea how we can operate operationalized and Functionalized certain ideas that we may have but there's nothing better There's nothing that can replace a firefighters or an emergency managers and incident commanders actual Observation doing a real incident or disaster because those are things where they're not Calculated they're not scripted and what they do In that situation is something that can be shared with all of us because we learned from it The problem is there's no pipeline direct one the policy-making Organization that's a repository collecting all this information We're sure we can talk with the FAA we can talk with the with the comport with the consortium for national disaster preparedness Consortium a lot of those but there needs to be one Organization that filters this in brings it in and is able to do a three a Throughput and put this information out to all they would be great with using it Oh, this should go here Oh that has to do with this and this should go here or that should go to Las Vegas to leave to our group there That's dealing with C toast issues. Mike. Let's let's let's let's do this Let's take they one world one way as an example of an agency that could assist in promoting this idea Let's figure out after we get back from our first break here Let's figure out how we're actually gonna do this. Let's take on the task. It is the open gap right now as us After we get back from our first break Sure Aloha, my name is Mark Shklav. I am the host of law across the sea. Please join me every other Monday to hear lawyers from Hawaii Discussing ways to reach across the sea and help people and bring people together Aloha, oh, huh. How you doing? It's me Angus mctech wishing you know welcome and join us to see us on Hibachi talk I'm think tech Hawaii to all my co-hosts Gotta know the tags up and enter the security guy every Friday from 1300 to 1345 we look forward to see it. We'll talk tech and we'll have some wee bit of fun And remember let your wing gang free where area B. Aloha. Aloha. My name is Danelia D. A. N. E. L. I a And I'm the other half of the duo John Newman We are the co-hosts of keys to success which is live on think tech live streaming network series weekly on Thursdays at 11 a.m. a Low ha a low ha We are back folks for the second half of our show where the drone leads today. We have dr. Mike Brown of one world one way in Stockbridge, Georgia our east coast studio As you can see the Sun has set on the east coast hasn't quite set here as you can see by the background Anyway, Mike welcome again, and thanks very much for that stimulating conversation We just talked about it a bit at the break your idea was that the gap of communication and understanding in You're about the only person I could I know who could see it this way But that is such an important issue part of the community involvement expressed in the what's how good is this thing for me? How can it work for me? What are the issues? How am I going to make something like this novel anew go forward? So what we're talking about before the break is the gap the absence of a Repository a place where on a safe basis everything associated with the use of drones in the world of Emergency management for example could be collected and could be sorted could be shared and the things that work Shared and understood the things that don't work Advertise as well so people can begin gaining the the the experience the the muscle memory of how this stuff really ought to go Right, that's right. So we were just talking at the break is you know We have a lot of other new technology that's come in like social media and stuff I don't think in social media that we necessarily have that mixing box where everything gets to come in and get sorted out I think we probably in the social media domain call that the marketplace things that don't work Don't survive in a marketplace things that you can ask them something about that Say again, you can ask Sam something about that their phone. Well, there you go. Right. Yeah Now of course really old people like me don't do social media So we're not really we our information doesn't contribute to the the DNA increase here. So what are we going to do Mike? How are we going to get? In fact, why don't we do this you had the meeting with I am we had a similar meeting you and I together with in my and Steve Johnson Steve Jensen as well with NFPA a while ago. We have a meeting coming up Tuesday with the International Association of the Chiefs of Police. I think we're going to head in the same direction You get three major organizations here Would they have any place where they come together and share thoughts? Would they as three organizations be interested in owning this box into which we deposit this kind of experience? Well, of course they would you know I reached out to the Atlanta Police Department here and I asked them if they had had drones and even though Georgia has a Law a state law now for drones for UAV's the Atlanta Police Department has not yet adopted the use of of drones Same thing with their fire department is quite a large fire department and police department But they're they're not utilizing even though the state has already implemented a law on the contrary You know Chicago was one of the first major cities to come up with a I think I sent you a copy of that of their drone Ordinance that they're using so they're kind of a disconnect my interest with the Chief of Police would be this That there are some gaps in what they call the communications assistance for law enforcement act That needs to be updated That law needs to be updated to include violations and use of new technologies so that they can have access to certain tools In order to investigate in prosecute Acts using that so that's one of the laws that I think Congress needs to look at and that needs to be brought up Doing this Chief's meeting the other issue is you get these organizations the IEM and the International Association of Chiefs of Police and the National Fire Department, but None of these individuals there's not one specific place within FEMA Or within the consortium where they can download and send and format videos and or narratives of their Incidents That they've been involved in or their exercise and say look this is what we found out that would make for an excellent Excellent and that would be a no fault. No no follow-up type issue. You whatever it is. You report it You know, there's an interesting situation about 15 years ago either the FAA or the NTSB created a No, no follow no harm type reporting system for aviation Whatever you did that might have deviated from the rules or whatever you Experienced observed or saw happen or cause yourself you could report it and there was no Recommendation for there was nothing coming back to you It was simply a data point that went into a box of some kind and then decisions were made about where regulations need to Be changed for training needs to be changed something like that So we're talking the same thing here. It's been done before You know, then that that's one of the things every day across the country There are different situations no matter how small they are that are utilizing that tool That's on that table in the front of you. Well, these are things a lot of this is being lost They're filed away. Nobody ever knows about them. Look how we're doing this now We could have a repository and what needs to happen is that it needs to be interacting Someone on the other end or group needs to review this information and get back with them and say look We appreciate your input. It was wonderful. We saw this We have another question for you. Let us ask you this and from that you start to build an actual algorithm of narrative Technical and narrative Qualitative you where you can see where you really can filter and get the best You know what Mike this is starting to sound like an intelligence situation just like you and I have talked about before We're talking about semantic analysis of multivariate narrative and such We're talking about correlation and deconfliction all the rules of intelligence play out here as well That's right. And as you know, this is such a as all the ideas come from you are You know beyond the the limits that were used to us. So this this is this is shocking and incredible at the same time Oh Man, I ain't got that much money. Okay. We have one more guy who often is at this table named general Daryl Wong Same thing we limit him to two bright ideas per show because we can't handle any more than that But what what this is this is critical for the nation this very discussion that you're leading and this idea You're taking us into what but it was here's another here's another way that it works Well, because it's tied into if it's tied into Congress's database they do research constantly if it's tied into their research in the GAO government accounting office They would have access and be able to go and look at things are being done In other words, they could review and look at these lessons being learned and observations as They were trying to get together to develop law going forward in the future So it would help them as well, but it'd be one central place where public safety could deposit Their experiences that they thought were noteworthy having to do with new technology stingray technology In other technology, I've been I'm a big proponent of the communications act of 1934 is completely outdated And it doesn't allow under the FCC rule for any use of jamming technologies At some point we're going to realize that with this new technology in the front of you and others that Some of our intelligence agencies and some of our national security agencies will have to be able to use Some technologies that we are saying are forbidden You're giving them to individuals so that we can fight an asymmetric battle Of changing things that mean that thing in the front of you is a wonderful tool But it's also a platform for disaster And I've you've heard me state that once before you saw what happened with the president last year When the Secret Service had to stop the one guy in Hawaii and Compliant the drone. There's a reason for that, you know in Dallas, Texas They slapped C4 on a robot and sent it in a room and got rid of a problem Well, they could do the same, you know, somebody that's nefarious can put C4 on a on a UAV And put it in and our national security Apparatus and our public safety need to have the tools that they need in order to address That probability that something like that will be that will happen particularly since it's easier to get a recreational drone Then it is for our public safety This very issue you're speaking of the the malicious use and this sort of thing would fit that same pattern It's a it's a it's a pat it's a data identification and pattern recognition situation and that same intelligence system that would collect the Issues associated with positive and negatives of use in disaster operations would have a section in it. It deals with this malicious use So you could use that same system to collect those Factors and those there's indicators of emerging patterns, right? So okay Mike So we have an obligation. I think between the two of us to take this story forward You know, I was just thinking as you're talking And I don't want to put anybody on on the spot here But we have been talking with our partners in Alaska about using our congressional delegations to in a shared way To see this picture and start taking some of start taking an interest in some of these issues at the at that level I think that and you're you're correct on that. It is the that's the level that has to occur and in fact all of the I Would should say in fact all the work in getting UAS into the business in the first place was really came out of Congress FAA took care of a lot of actions, but they were mandated by congressional acts and by the Revitalization Act of the FAA. So that's where it starts. That's where it ends. It's in Congress, isn't it? Right? Well, and we have some friends in Congress. I've mentioned Charles Schumer. Yeah, he's Schumer. Yeah, Senator Schumer He is introduced acts and he's he's looking to push Geofencing and the question came up last week when I was at the conference about geofencing and I I avoided the question to some degree. I Don't like going into to Certain technology because I believe that those particular geofencing is a key a very key Technology that will put us in a position to protect critical infrastructure and also to strengthen it or the national information and infrastructural protection program Because they got to be working hand-to-hand and that's something that I haven't seen Lately and that would be under PPD 8 PPD 21 But I think the the main issue is Congress has their hands tied to Because none of those gentlemen know as much about the instrument on that Table in front of you as the people that are actually using it and they're waiting for us to give them ideas ways and means and Lessons learned they have to you can't make policy or laws based on you know If I can intercept your thoughts for a minute might which is is the second you've given two brilliant ideas on a table And that's the limit for the show We don't allow more than two as I mentioned it because if we just can't handle that many more bright ideas But but the as an analog of that what the FAA has done with these test centers is exactly a Small-scale version of what you're speaking of the purpose of the test centers is to find out what works What doesn't work what the issues are what fails and where the success has to be done either technology or regulations so the model is there we've seen that model play out several times and This idea you've got of taking a story to senator Schumer. Let's do it. Let's obligate ourselves right here on TV I reached out. I reached out the week before last. I haven't heard anything back, but I did reach out The problem with the test centers Uncle is that those test centers Like I said, and I stated before are those are controlled environments We can fix that. We'll take that challenge and go fix it. My god. That's that's what we're all about Now I can guarantee you the same scenarios that they're using and that they're putting out there Given in the real-world situation There are gonna be three or four other variables that many many more variables no question about that But we can do it and that's the thing that you know, you you're preparing you say you got your you got your you got your You got you a be under air operations. You got all the resources yet tight ready You got everything set everybody's ready for the next window next for the next period everything's fine And then you get a telephone call that there's four or five drones because a little group of teenagers are Out there and they're all trying to suit and get the best picture of whatever it is is happening now You're ready for one UAP, but you're not ready for five right or or 500 and in fact the whole world counter drones all about that We're reaching the end of our rope here in in the show Again, I can't thank you enough for the the brilliant ideas We'll see you on the telephone on Tuesday We talk to the chief of the chiefs of police and let's follow up on this idea of At least starting to present the idea to our congressional delegation and the senator Schumer at the same time what I want you to do is reach out to the National disaster preparedness consortium and see if they can have a policy report Pository we'll do that. We've already suggested that to them many many times. So we are out of time at this point in time Mike Brown in Stockbridge, Georgia and his wonderful family standing by off-camera. You may now return to your 1030 Friday night activities, whatever they may be and Okay, Mike