 the legacy in the history. And I was trying to think about the legacy and the history of those relationships in terms of what was there, who was going. It was kind of, in some ways, partially sparked and informed by my own experience living and studying in China as an African-American woman. And so when I began to look into the history, one of the first figures I came across was actually Du Bois and his writings on China and Africa, reading about his speech that he gave on his 91st birthday, and also some of his other writings about the new China and his kind of conversations that he was having and his trips to China finding news report, news recordings in both US and in the China press. And so for me, that was kind of interesting to think about. This was, I knew about Du Bois. I had read The Souls of Black Folks, I studied his work, never knew about his time in China. And I was like, where is his other history? Well, you know, why does not mean someone is discussed and it got me further exploration into other individuals who are in some ways in that kind of same time period in cohort. So kind of thinking about what does it mean to add this other dimension, other identity perspective into these conversations. And so we began as what I used to call, because I know that relations is where I moved from the African-American experience in Maoist China, which is my previous research, to looking more into the contemporary understandings of the Black diaspora and their engagement with China. So China is growing. What are these moments of engagement, whether in China or whether in some ways in other countries where China has a heavy interest or engagement, what is happening when we have those moments of contact, whether it can be a political economic, but I'm more interested, particularly in the social cultural, thinking about the people to people, what happens in these ideas or how these social cultural ideas are some ways informing and shaping different policies. I mean, if you ever know anyone who, one of the great things that we had a recent event between the Black China Caucus and the VIA, and it was talking about, you know, living while Black in China. And it was from people who were, you know, there as students or who there was working. And they're kind of, someone's explaining how their experiences in some ways are a little different, and how in some ways that leads to differences in terms of the conversations or the best practices that are added to, what's happening and how this in some ways also can apply to how there's some time being treated, even though they are official resonances of the United States government, which also makes you think about, when we think about these ideas of what I call networks of difference, how does that in some ways come into contact with China as it's going to, it's expanding its outreach to initials like the Belt and Road or the kind of South-South cooperation, what does it mean with their engagement with African nations or nations in the Caribbean, what the majority of populists, people who identify as Black or part of that diaspora, or also places in who have their leadership also reflects that as well. And so it has me thinking about those kind of conversations, does race play a part of it? And so in the Western context, we call it thinking about race, ideas of race and racism, and it comes down to more largely identity formation. How does identity form? What are the structures that form it? What are the processes that are somewhere in different societies that leads to identity? And how does that lead to other ways of thinking about the world and navigating with the world itself? And so I use the term networks of difference as I talk about China specifically because using the term race and racism in some cases is a loaded term. One is met with in some ways kind of, it's not necessarily rejected, but it's met with some kind of reaction to it. We hear the word race and racism, it elicits a response. But in China, the response is a little bit different. One of the two main arguments always here, one is that we don't have races, R-A-C-E-S, therefore we're not racist. We have Xiaoshan Muzu, which is important because that is how they identify the nation state and peoplehood. So it is important. So it's not just the area of semantics, it is a kind of thinking about nationalism and how that is important by identifying as a nation that people identity is. So for them to say that is very much about, well, how can we be racist if we don't necessarily same categories? But also there's another conversation when it comes to the Black Other in particular, is the idea we have the same legacies as Western nations do when it comes to chattel slavery that the system of the translate and save trade where we don't have same legacy in history, therefore we're not racist to the Black Other. But also what happens in those conversations while those are the reasons why they reject those terms, there is still difference being made and there's difference with distinction and how that plays out in terms of the ways which identity formation and structure in China do. And ideas such as blood, kinship and other networks that are very much part of these conversations. And so I think use the term network to difference to one be respectful of the arguments that come from Chinese scholars and Confluent people in China to relate to these conversations, but to not to impose Western ideas and terms on to a different space as well, trying to be in some ways thinking through to get across the conversation, to have more conversation about, you might not call it this, but think about how these particular engagements follow, come together. Think about moments of you have backlash and it's against our good people. What does that mean in that space? And so I think we're two of these terms that kind of helps me think through and kind of engage and expand my conversation a bit more. Think about the ways in which difference happens. I also use the term anti-blackness as well using that framework because that is a global, unfortunately it is global. And so global anti-blackness also allows me to talk more particularly about the ways in which black bodies and black people are treated or how the ways in which blackness is understood or some ways not always understood or always able to access certain things in certain spaces. So that's kind of where I'm coming from. I've been trying to more recently think about and connect it to the kind of growing Chinese presence that I mentioned before in these different spaces and thinking about what does this mean in terms of engagement, thinking through kind of soft diplomacy initiatives. We're thinking about some of these other cases as well. What does it mean when you have these ideas and networks and how are these understandings happening and how do people respond to them? And as it wants to change as we have more engagement or we want to somebody see some of the same kind of tropes over and over, that can be seen as problematic and difficult for these particular relationships. And as those relationships start to change, as we see different nations are starting to, in some ways, know how they're shifting in terms of their perspective or their engagement with China, what does that mean in terms of people to people to diplomacy, peoplehood, and also thinking through those conversations as well. So that's where I am kind of putting together some new ideas, kind of piece the past and the present in some interesting ways and thinking about, as more conversations, thinking about kind of global racial politics and what does that mean in relation to kind of historical and cultural understandings of what I call kind of black relations. So that's me, I hope it wasn't too much of a repeat for those who are who I had a chance to speak to last semester. I do want to open the conversation to any questions you want me to have about this topic more broadly or my journey however you want to go. So with that being said, I'm happy to answer any questions or get the conversation. You can also ask questions of each other. Don't feel you have to ask me. I'm happy to answer questions but I hope we get a dialogue going as well. Thank you, Dr. Brown. And like Dr. Brown said, we'll open the floor to questions and conversations. Feel free to respond to each other. And I think we have a lot to unpack. So let's get started. Does anyone want to kick us off? All right, if not, something that I'm sort of curious to learn more about, we've talked a lot in Epic this year about Chinese nationalism and how to some extent the Chinese identity and Chinese nationalism relates to this notion of joining together against Western imperialism and anti-Asian racism. And then as you were sort of talking about, there's this idea in China that China doesn't have a race problem. And so I'm sort of curious to know what the relationship that you see is between Chinese nationalism and race or networks of difference. I really appreciate that term and I'll try to start using it. And yeah, specifically nationalism and anti-Black racism too, if you can touch on that. I know that's a very big question, but... Thank you, that is a big question. But one of the frameworks, there's a variety of nationalism, how we think about nationalism as this big term. And thinking about Benedict Anderson's kind of discussion of this kind of imagined community, right? There's also different forms, different facets of nationalism. And the one that I look very close to that is ethno-nationalism, where this idea of you have an ethnic identity or kind of this kind of identity that's part of the nationalist narrative. So we think about China, particularly think about the idea that he had the 56 ethnic nationalities. That's very much kind of an example, this kind of idea of where this is part of the nation state, when you have China on kind of a global stage, think about, say, the 2008 Olympics, that was part of the opening ceremony to show this is who we are as China and these who are our people. And so ethno-nationalism brings in these concepts of peoplehood, my identity and ethnic, a lot of ethnicity as well. And so for me, that's kind of a good launching pad to think about this particular form of nationalism that we kind of see are emerging that is not unique to the PRC, that's something that kind of is something that we can think about looking at, say, modern Chinese history, look at the Qing as kind of one of those first kind of early examples of the idea of thinking about ethno-nationalism, what does it mean to bring in all these different people to keep them under one particular national, kind of one particular government to umbrella. And so thinking about this idea of ethno-nationalism, it in some ways allows the Chinese nation state to, in some ways, engage in these conversations about identity along the lines of peoplehood, but also allows them to think about in conjunction with other forms of nationalism, thinking about how they want to swarm themselves in terms of the nation state or the frameworks and engage in conversations about anti-US imperialism, anti-US imperialism, be able to in some ways critique it through the lens of a identity conversation where we see, if we look at some of the writings from the PRC under the Maoist era, they're in some ways challenging Western imperialism, not just because of its policies, but also because of its treatment of people. So engaging in the idea of looking at peoplehood, identity and being that another lens of critique, how we can critique race in the US as a means of kind of engaging these conversations, thinking about the black American experience as a means of critiquing it. So they can use the idea of ethno-nationalism as a framework or a lens to also engage and think about peoplehood in other spaces as well. I'm thinking about more contemporary in terms of, and I mean, I have fortunately seen with the horrible, the horrible and deplorable shooting of eight people in Atlanta, which it just broke my heart to really see that. And it was, when I taught on class on Wednesday, I was like, we're not going to have classes usually, we need to, we're doing Chinese history, we need to talk about this because this is horrible. But just thinking about how this is another conversation that I hope both sides will engage in because they are, I think in the recent talks, I had the idea of kind of the conversation with rhetoric about Black Lives Matter was brought up in China, was that would you do this to black people? And it's like all these conversations about race are happening now in this conversation. So I'm hoping that they're starting to use or think about questions about kind of discrimination, whether it is anti-Asian or anti-black or whatever the case would be, how to have more conversations leading to how do we think about this systematically and think about these forms of the ways in which these structures are formed, whether it's the events that has happened or are able to happen and have conversations more about how can we in some ways have conversations, but not just be using it as a means to be a technical or kind of deploy it as a means of throwing some kind of critique or attack back at each other. And I think for me that's been the case for much of the discussion prior to this, but I'm hoping that it's unfortunately because of the horrible rise of crimes against the anti-Asian community kind of those spike it's been like over what 100% increase it's just absolutely just deplorable. But those are the cases that we know about which is sad to say there are probably other cases we don't know about, but how does it might need to be a real conversation when thinking about nationalism and peoplehood and what does that mean for thinking about the Asia diaspora more broadly especially thinking about how a lot of that rhetoric comes from and thinking about the pandemic itself. How about is your question coming around the world? I don't know if... No, that made a lot of sense. And I appreciate you bringing up the point about the rise in anti-Asian hate that we've seen in this country. I think that's a really important conversation and something that we sort of touched on really briefly actually on the keynote address at the start of the symposium. So good full circle conversation there. Does anyone have anything they wanna chime in with? I was curious, in the US there's this debate over whether ethnic identity and race or simply class are responsible for a lot of the disparities that we see in the American population. And I'm wondering like how that plays out in China if there is just a really strong correlation between those things, especially as it relates to black identity in China or if it is clearly one or the other that creates disparities just in lifestyles and conditions and income. Yeah, thank you. I think that's a great question. I think another element to add is thinking about identity, think about national identity where one is coming from because we're thinking about in China if you want to come and if you go on and say yes, since we have a variety of people who come into China for different reasons. Some are coming to go to school, so they're not for education. So they're in school, that's a different demographic there, right? You wanna school and what that means. So I'm coming to work and you wanna open businesses but some cases it might be difficult to open a business or to have longevity because in many cases you're not necessarily a full citizen. And so in many cases, that's the idea of national identity, where you are from and if you're able to be able to find means of longevity to get support from the Chinese government to be able to keep your business. And so sometimes it's with those who own businesses that we see a lot of upheaval and turnover in terms of what they're able to do and as a result of their visa status and what it needs in terms of renewing that as well. So I think some of it might be questions about identity in terms of maybe I don't know any ideas of race, but a lot of it also has to do with our national identity, who can come in for wearing whether the Chinese law is allowing foreigners to be able to do certain things with property or be able to have register for, how do you register for your household and what does that mean? You wanna stay long-term or what happens in those spaces having to negotiate that in terms of where you wanna be but also where you're from and what does that mean? So I know some individuals take it out. I know we had a chance we were in Hong Kong, we met someone who had worked there. He started the NGO, but he got funding from a US institution because the Chinese government does not really give NGO funds to someone who's not Chinese or the money's not going to directly to the Chinese population. So you wanna do an NGO like a nonprofit or something to find external funds which could also lead to other problems in terms of do they allow, what countries allow what spaces to get what kind of funding and what they have as their funding drives up and so trying to be creative with trying to find support. So sometimes it also comes down to the type of comes out to national identity sometimes too. You're not doing more engagement. There's still not in some ways a parallel between who can do what and there's not necessarily always the same open access to foreigners in China in terms of being able to have longevity and protection. And so what does that mean for people? Thank you. You're welcome. I kind of had a follow-up question to that. Do you think there's like a conception in China that in order to be considered fully Chinese you need to be like Han Chinese by blood or is there, yeah, I was just wondering if you could speak more about like what their conception is of Chinese. Yeah, so that's a good question. So the Han Chinese, that's the old one majority that we know of and we didn't know that the majority out of the 56 but if you ever get a chance to read Thomas Bolin's book about counting the 56, he talks about the whole process that happened about 1954, 1955, what the 56 come from, right? The 56 were not always there. In our lifetime, that's what we know of because we came after that was already created. But he talks about the process and the creation at 56 in terms of it was actually more identities by how they created these different groups in different places. And so I think in many cases, the idea of even like the Han majority, you have these 56 ethnic minorities, I think that also counts as being Chinese. I think in many cases it's kind of really, I'm looking at kind of the legal way of thinking about and also thinking about the ways which it has been traditionally thought about in terms of thinking about blood and languages. If you have Chinese blood that makes you some way Chinese. But thinking about American citizenship, it's about where you're born, right? You're born on American soil. What happens in this case? So you are American, some ways based upon geography more so than in some ways lineage. And so in many cases in China it's more about some ways lineage. So I remember I had a chance to, and I was 16 on SVH, because it's still, when I look back on that, that was a weird experience. Actually it was part of a root-seeking summer camp. And those were people who are Chinese to go back to China. And I was a special guest. I don't know how my Chinese teacher did it, but I remember it was, and she had those conversations with students who were Asian-American, born and raised in the US. They were a second generation Asian-American, but they were like, we'll go back to China. We're seeing these Chinese because our parents, our lineage, our family is from China. We have Chinese blood. And so it was like, it's not about when you're born, it's about the kind of the blood conversation. We had no idea about lineage and linking and thinking about having that kind of connection to previous generations to your ancestors. So I think more so is not in spite of the hun in terms of what makes Chinese identity. I think even more about the Chinese as a larger collective, about the Chinese that ask for what that means as well. And I do think in China today, since the hun is the majority, like any time we have majority and minority, the majority is the one who, somebody sets the norms and the standards and certain things in the society. So in some ways it's useful to be able to assimilate or to be kind of more closely aligned with the majority, but I don't necessarily think that means you're any less Chinese if you're seen as, say, another ethnic identity. So I think it's a, if I do think I can come in today, think about the Chinese that ask more broadly how that makes interesting conversation for thinking about identity. I think for me to also bring up a point where I'm thinking about and working through conversations about mixed race and bi-racial children who are born with Chinese and black ancestry with us, black American, black Caribbean, or someone who's from the continent, radical. And what does that mean moving forward if they are of Chinese blood? What does that mean for them in terms of nationalism and identity? Would they be able to claim being Chinese or not? Because there are more of those families and more children being born who are a bi-racial, multi-racial. And so thinking through those questions about nationalism and citizenship and would they be able to access that? Hope that helps. I thought that was really helpful. Thank you. Other questions? Sort of going off of that. I'm curious. What's interesting to me and I'm remembering kind of remembering some of what you were talking about in the fall with Mao, it's really clear to me at least that like Mao had this idea of global colored solidarity against imperialism in US imperialism but imperialism more broadly. And they're sort of this, like as China has become more powerful I think we've seen what they've done against specific minorities within their country in Tibet and Xinjiang and Hong Kong. And there's I think a very obvious juxtaposition there and difference in those two ideas there. So I was just wondering if you could speak a little more to that and how you're viewing what's happening in those regions against those specific minorities on the topic of minorities. So I think what's happening in, you have the way in which the state was, someone's clamped down on the protesters in Hong Kong and was happening in Tibet and also in Xinjiang with the, I mean for lack of better or the concentration camps that are happening there, there is a way in which there are finding ways to, whenever you are able to as a state to find ways to, in some ways you're pressed or in some ways a go against a segment of population in some ways you're able to, in some ways you humanize them or make them seen as the outside or the extreme. And that's what we see in those cases where it's idea of them pushing back against the more, if we can kind of look back at the rise of Xi Jinping and kind of see the ways in which there's a kind of economic changes. We also see in many cases a clamping down on civil society where we see changes to where it's not in some ways as open as used to be there's a crackdown on civil society is happening very concentrated and there's no identity of this idea I hate to go back to the time that my use is new China but there is kind of an idea of this kind of global China and this kind of way China is reshaping its identity on the global stage in lieu of its new initiatives. How we see this happening where there are in some ways finding ways to say this is who is part of the populace and this is how we can find ways to say how we redefining China and how they're in some ways using it to also say so also we want you to become more close to social with this new China that we're foraging and if you're not in some ways part of that project then we're gonna have to reshape and refashion you to be part of that. So we're thinking about in terms of Xinjiang it's along the lines of racial as well as religious and ethnic identity I would think might have to bet along the same thing religious and kind of identity as well and in Hong Kong it's along the lines of kind of political and local identity where we think about the protest unfortunately the way it was very much talked about in the US press was oh it's these people in Hong Kong who should be happy to have all these laws and protections and rule law should be happy what was going on and it's just one little thing that's happening why they're making such a big fuss over it and so I think many cases the narratives overlooked but we can also imagine places like Xinjiang and Tibet it's a more complicated multi-layered narrative where it was about local politics by having the right to some ways think about the promises that were made to keep those promises to the people of Hong Kong about the 40 year period between when they were going at the 40 year moment had this 40 year period but to be able to have that space to kind of grow and exchange we're here to keep the rule law to keep policies in place so we could have democratic elections to not have to be extended to mainland China which they did not feel as a safe practice if you were arrested and how we see in many cases that happens in a way and so this idea of like when they're not necessarily conforming to this face of this new China one put out there how certain groups or some ways are in some way stigmatized and how there are some ways talked about in ways to say this is why we justify what we're doing and how they can do that in the nation state where you think about it and we have been to other places too it's not just China that's the only one but we're talking about China today more specifically but how they're able to say this is the image for crafting and how they can justify on the one hand we're talking about close out there we're talking about built and roads we're talking about built and infrastructure we're talking about this cooperation we're giving many of these places and it sounds good on the other hand how there are also some ways horribly treating people who are Chinese or treating their own citizens and how they're justifying and splitting those hairs to say this is why we can do this and this is why it makes it okay and how we're trying to someone show this idea what this new China is as I mentioned I had a chance to be in Hong Kong last January which was crazy to think those were my last ships and I was like did not know that two months later the world was gonna completely be shut down for a while but I remember just being able to go to the square having much of the protests I remember we took a trip there and that day we were there was a much smaller protest it was not one of the larger ones but just being there you can just feel just the areas you can just feel the frustration you can feel the pain like people were really it was like it was very deeply emotional space and because it was something that people were really fighting for trying to some ways have a Hong Kong that they knew of but also try to keep Hong Kong striving and strong and be able to say well these are the promises that we were given are you gonna honor those or are you gonna come in and not do so and so to go through Hong Kong and see and feel that we see armed police on the corners it was like this is different this is not the Hong Kong I remember and having those moments of where a few of us we did cry because we're like you can feel it and I remember they were calling out to other people and I remember kind of bringing back to the idea of global solidarity the Hong Kong protests we saw flags from all over the world they had flags you know asking and kind of appealing to different people around the world and thinking about global close I did most particularly this was in January and it was right before the king's birthday and there was a speech where somebody gave in a young guy you could tell he was in Mandarin he said I have a dream he was invoking King also an idea of a dream but also invoking the language of the Chinese nation state of this idea of the little China dream and kind of using that language on two different fronts so saying I have a dream very clearly I was kind of invoking King but also a play on the China idea of this China dream what does that mean for Hong Kong what do we fit into this China dream and so that protests kind of brought it back to the idea of trying to reach out to the community global community and trying to support each other and thinking about how do we keep fighting for those who are fighting for just causes I think I'd be right there I talked a lot to my hands I've been rambling them you give a faster microphone we can't help it I'm sort of curious to expand on that point a little more because I know there was a pretty big connection between the civil rights movement and the Mao era and so it's really interesting to hear civil rights figures being invoked in Hong Kong so I would love to hear hear you explore that a little more and also learn a little more historically about those figures in the Mao era so I remember while Dr. King never went to China he never was in that space a lot of what Mao was doing in terms of his speeches or in terms of the release that of his speeches was centered around Dr. King so the speech supported after America's 1963 that was on the eve of the March of Washington the one that came out in April 1968 that was at the King was assassinated so his timing of his speeches was very much tied to what was happening as well he also knows speeches kind of really invoked different moments in the civil rights movement so it talks about like the little rock nine and those things in some of his speeches where in some ways he's aware of and has no knowledge in many news about what's happening in terms of civil rights movement and I think for him, for Mao I think getting someone like Du Bois who was connected to the lone civil rights movement it's not just one of the 1950s and 60s but kind of thinking through the lone 20th century civil rights movement where you have people like Du Bois who was writing about in the turn of the 20th century their problem or the 20th century the problem of Kondaline which unfortunately we've seen in the 21st century still the same problem, right? The problem of the 20th century is the problem of Kondaline he's writing souls of black folks he's talking about double consciousness he's really trying to put pen in the paper and put in some ways a tangible a word to what the black experience words they might have psychologically and emotionally and so for him who had so much and clout and so much kind of connections in both US and also in different countries in Africa because by this point he was living in Ghana after he went on self-imposed exile after his experience with McCarthy and being a part of the House of Un-American Committees Un-American Committees he was like, I'm not dealing with this anymore but how in some ways he was still very much part of those conversations because he was original founder of the NAACP the National Association of Advancement Color it's National Association of Advancement Color people and it also had people like who are people who are connected to the civil rights but through more so through labor activism so we think about people like Vicky Garvin who goes she was very much about grassroots organizing labor rights in New York looking at that as a place of how do we have think about civil rights movement not just in terms of the right to vote but also the ability to have the express our rights to vote but also thinking about equality in terms of pay in terms of labor in terms of organizing how do we find ways to where this is also a civil rights issue other women who are going as well think about Robert F. Williams who's very much kind of seen as this connected between civil rights movement and then the black power movement where his writings about the Negroes and guns he's talking about armed self-resistance where the idea that as American citizens we have the right to have guns as well including black Americans what does that mean now he's just kind of the linchpin between those two organizations even though he's not in the US at the time that we see all these women's happening he's in China and so having them being able to be in China to have you see Mao very much talking about Robert Williams invoking him in his speeches as well kind of shows that there was a connection there or understanding and using the kind of global outreach to kind of one be connected to African Americans I think about civil rights movement use television as well they see look at the ways where they were using this new medium to show what was happening that we're not going to talk about I'm going to show you that they're firing putting water hoses on us using water cannons they're using dogs if you haven't seen a water cannon if you have a good chance to go to Birmingham and go to they have a park that's across from the civil rights museum there and actually have a stone replica of a water cannon and those things were not like just a water like a fire hose they were like a cannon and shout out water so much more powerfully so your position is they're talking about the children's marching in Birmingham so using its own this huge like powerful water on 75 pound children who are marching because they want to have rights as children be able to have you know if we're going to have separate equal can we get equal can we have better schools can we have better rights can we have better spaces so I think there was a lot of connection that we're thinking about and engaging these conversations through on the question of you know kind of anti-U.S. imperialism we're also thinking about the ways in which race as America's Achilles Hill and kind of using this experience or think about African-American experience to also say this is also why it might not be the best to align with the U.S. because you are a nation like you know for instance that gun out of the crew but why would you align with a nation who does this to its people and people who look like you and you have a lot of scholars who write about this as well who talk about when African diplomats come to the U.S. and they travel by car once they land somewhere in the U.S. they travel up to D.C. and how they're like or to New York to go to the U.N. they're like wait I couldn't eat with my other diplomats at the south side of the back or I was pulled over or I couldn't go to the hotel and so this question about you know there was a lot of issues with the U.S. in terms of its policy and how the rights movement was very much connected to what Mal was talking about and how he was connected to people as well as the events and moments as well. Go for it. Oh yes, hi Dr. Brown thank you so much for taking the time out to speak and this is a really fascinating topic. I actually took a really wonderful African-American scores with Tufts professor Gerald Gill I don't know if you heard of him. He was amazing, an amazing lecturer and so I did study a little bit about W.D.B. Boyce and what I find fascinating I would like your thoughts on this because he definitely said he was persecuted because of McCarthyism in the United States and so that's a form of repression but he passed away in 1963 and in 1966 Mal started the cultural evolution which lasted about a decade and that was a severe political repression and so one could argue that this type of culture of evolution is you can see kind of microforms, microcosms of that right now, relatively in with the Ubers and also with the Tibetan Buddhists and also Tibetans and also even Falun Gong practitioners especially with the crackdown in Tiananmen Square. So what are your thoughts? What are your thoughts about what W.D.D. Boyce would have thought about this? You know, how would he have felt and how do you live to see that happen? Oh wow, that's another question. He lived a full life though. He died when he was 90. I mean, he died when he was 90. So he had a full life to say the least. I'm not as silly as at all but I think there is a good conversation and good question because I know that he was not around during the culture evolution but you do have others who are research who were there and they didn't talk about it because the idea is like, you know, as many, you know, nation states do, it's the idea of statecraft and what the message is getting out. And so the idea of what the culture evolution was or how it was like, you know, the language was like, it's, you know, using culture as a means to revitalize and really, you know, change the nation state. And so that was the rhetoric that was going out but that's not what actually was happening as you mentioned it because you know, like it was not that at all. Let's be real, if I lived in the culture evolution I'd probably be paraded down the street somewhere because I'm in a position of like, I know you represent the four O's, right? And you represent bourgeois culture, you know, a college professor, like I couldn't be, it would not have been one who would have been safe in that space. But I think I feel like Robert Williams was there. Vicky Garvin was there. She actually was teaching in Shanghai and she actually leaves Shanghai, moved to Beijing because schools got shut down. And so she actually changed her whole career as a result of it. So they were there as part in China in the midst of it. Not sure how much they saw a witness because they were, I know the case, Robert Williams, a special guest, doing that he did see his son's teachers being paraded down the street. He did mention that in interviews much later in life once he was back in the US. He didn't mention that. He saw that, but he never wrote about it. And his news of the crusader that was still in circulation while in the US. So it was a lot happening. But in terms of his idea of repression, I think it is happening. I think it's happening on a very grand scale. We have whole regions of whole people who are not in some ways being told that their way of life is in some ways they're not able to live and take function and to be able to have the basic human rights of just being able to have freedom, right? And so this idea of not being able to be who you are. And so I think this idea of repression, I think Du Bois would have, he did change his opinions a lot because at first in the 30s when he was in China, he was like, oh, I'm pro-Japan because Japan is on the right thing with this whole Kupas Brady sphere. And then he later had to apologize. I was like, yeah, I was wrong about that. I do think that if he was able to witness, so this kind of getting to like revisionist history, so a little bit so, no, don't, don't, don't, don't quote me. But I will say that I think he would not have been for any form of repression, any form should be formed. I do think that because of his own experiences in the US, his own experiences being a black man in a global space to where even though he had a prestige had a name and he had a power and he had a legacy. I mean, he was a prolific writer. You can find, he wrote about almost every topic you think of, he has so many books, so many essays and many writings. I think in any form of repression is something that he was very much against and he was very much about, it was pro-Afro-esolidarity. He was very clear about that. He also was very much about people being able to, what solidarity means across the board, meaning everyone in those spaces being able to be part of the conversation where you're not in some way silencing some groups in the form of in some ways uplifting the whole group. So seeing that we're doing this whole uplift by in some way silencing certain voices who were not able to be part of this kind of course of thinking about solidarity. And we can kind of see this in some of his writings one of which is his fictional story about Doc Princes, where his protagonist has this kind of experience where he's a black American, he leaves and goes overseas because he was, because of race and racism, he's forced out of medical school. And that actually was a real thing where you could have documents to show that a lot of African-Americans would apply to the medical school. And like, well, we don't know if we can train you. We don't know if we have a space here. We don't know. I mean, it happened over and over unfortunately to many black doctors who they were, they were able to go, but they were not able to get the resources and it happened over and over the side tangent. But the protagonist goes to France, he's at this kind of dinner table and it's like people from around the world who represent Afro-Asia. And he remembers doing it the way in which he's like, you know, his character felt in some ways kind of silence where in Matthew Towns, the character's name was someone's like, you know, they want us to be here but the African-American experience is always not always seen as like, what can you give us to the table? And so I think if we can look at his writings and other writings like that to see that he would have been against a form of repression idea that we're going to have solidarity and movements bring everyone to the table. I don't think that he has any writings about race or more progressive than his writings about gender. I do some issues like he writes about women in some cases but that's not the conversation about the voice in women. But I think in terms of ideas about race and thinking about a racial solidarity, he would have been against any kind of a form of repression whoever it is happening to because of the way it's going. How could he have reconciled the faith that he had now? Because, I mean, he's using this information about the civil rights struggle in the United States and how ironic that after that, 10 years of violent suppression, you know, oppression. Yeah, for a lot of African-Americans, they did reconcile. Originally, if you look at Mark Galatio's work on Afro-Black internationalism with Asia from 1895 to about 1945, 1950, we see that it starts with Japan. So I'm the same way they reconcile what Japan was doing. Well, you know, Japan is this model of, you know, kind of this, we look at them as this model kind of leader in this kind of global close-out there team because they beat the Soviet Union, Russia and it's a Russian-Japanese war, 1904, 1905. And so holding it up on this kind of pedestal, what ignoring kind of Japanese imperialism until it came to the point that it couldn't ignore it any longer and thinking about kind of the Japanese invasion of Japan. I think about Nanjing specifically and I'll think about the Japanese invasion on the bottom of Pearl Harbor. So in many cases that happen in those moments and thinking about also with Robert Williams and others, they kind of did the same thing. We're going to overlook the bad or to see if there's still something here to be good to look for. Because in some cases, is it still better than what's happening in the U.S.? I think with this case, with the happening right now, I don't think you can reconcile it, to be honest, because I think those old patterns are doing something where, well, it's better than what's happening in the U.S., not to say that the U.S. is any better, but it's idea of reconciling it using that framework, which you see over and over and over, because they were trying to find something that helped them kind of think about moving the situation in the U.S. I mean, it's a little bit better meant for African-Americans in any kind of space form or support, but I think these days, you can't necessarily recon... I don't think those old models of reconciling could be done. One, because there's more information coming out, they can't necessarily deny it easily and say, well, we didn't know the extent of it. Because when Du Bois was traveling, he had handlers. And so I'm not sure while what he saw, he didn't speak the language, I'm not sure what he was told through translator. So I think there was an easy for him to use that as a means of reconciliation, but I don't think it's then that you can reconcile those moments. You can't say, you know, we're gonna be anti, you know, what's happening at our own borders and then say, but it's okay, what's happening to Xinjiang. You can't do that. I don't think they can reconcile the old ways they were reconciling things back then. So I'm not sure if he could reconcile it. I don't think he probably would have reconciled it to be honest. I think at a certain point, he would have had to speak out the way he kind of went back and openly apologized to China since I was wrong in the 30s. He might have come back and said, I might have been wrong about this too. I think he would have been open to say, what's happening here is not what I envision for the new China. And this is not what you said the new China was and I'm not able to in some ways continue to support this because not every African-American who goes endorses it. I'll be pranking you on my research subject. He goes, he's an entertainer, he's a speaker, he's a singer, contemporary of Paul Robeson. He goes, he's like, oh, you're called by this one. Yeah, so he's like, he goes in and pink is like, you showed me the same schools, why you showing the same, what is this like? You keep showing the same, like he was very critical. And so I think many might in this moment, and I think there are a lot of people like pink, he was like, there's something here I'm not getting and I'm not getting the full picture and I need to ask questions. I think right now, I don't think at the moment what they can try to reconcile the two. I think it'd be a question of what is in some ways the best for, we're talking about human rights and civil rights, what are we talking about and what does that mean and how do we do this? I don't think the way they've reconciled it back then would actually be able to do a work these days. Well, and actually on that, so I'm talking about now like present day in terms of Africa, like where there's significant Chinese presence, does it give pause to African communities and countries to see how China is treating its ethnic minorities, the ones that we just reviewed, talked about and what could possibly happen if Chinese economic interests collide with natural interests or community interests in East Africa and South Africa, all over the continent. I think so, yeah. Cause I think they're making, cause I think in some cases and I think this is a conversation that I've been having more and more people are like, what is the Chinese policy or their attitudes towards their own internationalities? What are some of their readings and writings about that? And thinking about saying, how in showing is the Chinese policies towards different groups? How does it in some ways relate to not just domestic policies, but also foreign policy making it as well, are there some parallels between the apparatus issues to make one set of policies also make, excuse me, look at the policies. I think there are some overlaps in some of those as well. So I think they argue in some ways having more pause and I think the FOCAC of 2018, it gave them, they wrote about human rights. So in writing, it said one thing, but then we saw in 2020, the kind of backlash as a result of the pandemic, people realized like, well, they said one thing, but then this is what happens when rubber hits the road. So we would know that there's some way of distinction between policy and actions. I think more countries are starting to take more pause and more stock and say, how we protect our people? Because many African nations did put our statements and saying we want to protect our citizens what's happening. So I think there is more of a pause in realizing that these policies, while they categorize a domestic versus foreign, I think they're realizing there's some overlap there and what we do. And so I reached them to a conference, it was in January, and she was a virtual conference through Black Liberty. And one of the, I think the keynote speaker was speaking about the idea of values and what does that mean in terms of, he's a works in foreign service. What does that mean for nation states? How do we think about what our values are what's important? How do we use that to come to negotiation tables? I think more nations are not necessarily just taking what China is willing to offer, but they're starting to push back a little bit more and say, okay, what is happening here? How does this relate to X, Y, and Z? How did it come down to the specific policies and what does that mean? So I think they are using what's happening as a moment of reflection and pause to see what does it mean for us as well? While we're doing this engagement on the kind of nation state, nation state level, how does this impact influence people to people policies or attitudes in those spaces and how can we find a way to protect our people and our interests? So I think there is a lot of pause. I think there is some heavy pause and reflection. I don't think we've seen prior to this. I think prior it was more like, we're taking the resources and whatever that means, but I think now it was more of a, and we can see the shifting in politics where I think was it recently, was it Ghana or Nigeria where they have just restructured the whole cocoa industry? You know what I'm saying? We're not going to, oh, yeah, we're not going to. Yeah, they were like, we're not going to keep sending this to say Switzerland, we're going to change it. So I think that's a shift in terms of how these nations are thinking about their role globally. And so I think they're taking a pause and they're really thinking like, what does this mean? And so they're making those, those shifts, I think. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. No, yeah. I mean, that's one of the things I'm trying to find a link just to people. I was like, I think there's a link there. I'm trying to figure it out specifically because I mean, I'm like, all this political jargon. You know, politics stuff, that's not my will house, but I do call it era. So I guess I am, you know, do political stuff. You can't wait for me. That's a great question. Thank you. It's all been a great question. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Anybody else? Yeah, I was about to say. Anyone else feel free to jump in? If not, I have a couple more ideas of where to bring the conversation, but I want to leave the floor open for just a second. Yeah, I have a question. Go for it, Daniel. Could you talk a little bit about how or why a common denominator of a non-white racial identity is not always a catalyst or a reason for a convergence? Mm, yeah. So I think that's a great question. That's why I started using critical mixed race scholarship because what I was finding is that in kind of thinking about initial mixed race scholarship is very much about white and some other identity. And I was like, but I'm not looking at that in this particular moment. And so one of the first anthologies I really got into was red and yellow, black and brown. And it talks about a non-white, non-right racial identities and how that is in some ways a conversation to be had in terms of race theory, why it was not necessarily happening. And so for me, that was a kind of really good space to get into these conversations about a non-white racial identity. What does that mean? I think there is a catalyst. I think there have been moments historically where it has been a catalyst to think about Afro-Asian kind of connections and kind of meetings and conversions in the US. So there is an anthology by Fred Mullen, Fred Ho and Bill Mullen, called Afro-Asia. And they talk in different essays where they talk about in terms of say music, in terms of politics, in terms of other moments. We're thinking about Robin Kelly and Betsy Esch's piece, Black Agmail, and how these kind of conversations are happening where I think there is more of those moments historically that are not always thinking about a bond in terms of how those give you moments of formation. And we think, for example, the Black Panthers, how you had Japanese Americans who were part of Black Panthers. We'll think about the rise of Black Panthers post-World War II, how the Japanese American experience being put in a termic camp that you rounded up and taken from your homes and being put on these camps where, I mean, just deployable conditions. Most of them in the Northwest, there also was one in Louisiana, which I think that was very interesting. Like there was a Japanese termic camp in Louisiana of all places. But they put them on these termic camps. And what that means for thinking about post-World War II, have the rise of kind of the Black Pan movement and how that was happening on the West Coast and how you had these identities that are converging and meeting. So I think there are those moments where it happens. I think for me, the question is, why aren't those moments analyzed or highlighted more? Why, in some ways, we go back to this idea of comparative racialization where we see that in terms of citizenship or belonging, especially in the U.S. space, why does this idea of citizenship been used as kind of this little trinket or dangling from these groups where there are some ways compared against each other and some ways seen as having to compete? And this idea of comparative racialization where we take out the idea of what are these different groups or some ways having to have these kind of moments of thinking about where in some ways, comparison with each other and how this leads to issues in terms of minority communities and across the board being able to connect. I think for me, I'm more frustrated where the moments of diverging or conflict is more highlighted than the moments of conflict or more highlighted than the moments of convergence and the moments of collaboration. And there are those moments, I think that's one thing I'm thinking through because I think for me personally, in light of what's happened in Atlanta, I've been having a lot of colleagues who are struggling with not necessarily supporting, but talking about how do we support a group in some ways who I wouldn't necessarily see them as being supportive of us over the years. I'm like, no, there has been support. We just think about in some ways how it has not been necessarily talked about champion or in some ways celebrated in some of these moments. And so I'm thinking that we need to have more of those moments of thinking about what solidarity in our relationship looks like, how we see this historically, whether it's in the US, but also whether it's in the places across the globe too, how there have been historically in those moments. So thinking about Bandung Conference, that was Afro-Asia coming together to think about moving forward, non-Iman movement, all those kinds of moments historically are there as well. So I think it's there. It's just not always somebody's seen as, it's not always somebody's talked about in ways that could be celebratory. But I'm talking about ways in the world it's like divisive. And I think that's where I get more frustrated than anything else. Yeah, great question. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. How it's definitely a source of frustration how divisions are highlighted rather than any collaboration or mutual support being celebrated at the time. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I think I feel like, you know, Yui Kujima, you know, part of the Black Panther, about Grace Lee Ball, the work that she was doing even until her last break, she was about Detroit and she was building and helping to rebuild posts of the economic collapse like you have those moments, those people who are like, they were doing the work. They were there on the ground and how their stories are not always the ones that we hear about or think about or think about in the 60s and 70s when the other rise of like, you know, one in Black Studies programs, you also had the creation of Asian Studies programs that move away from the language and think about Oriental. So talking about Asian and Asian Americans identity and how all those are kind of coming together with these different identities are helping each other move forward in their own kind of bad past. We're also doing it together where we learn from one group how they use this infrastructure to do this, how we can use it, how we can support each other. So I think that's one of the moments where we gotta really think about the moments of convergence more than the moments of divergence. Yeah. Thank you. I was just gonna say, I think that's a really, really an important point and it's something that it's a conversation I think I've seen happen on Tufts campus a little bit actually over the past year or so where just on social media, many members of the Asian community in light of George Floyd came out and said like, look, this is how like we are gonna support the black movement and the same thing is happening now sort of like in reaction to what happened in Georgia. And I just hope that that continues because I think it is important in terms of reconciling the divisions that we kind of seem prone to create right now, but I'm curious to sort of to end the conversation, how do you see, how can we ensure that we uplift the positive reinforcing stories and narratives rather than sort of the negative ones and going forward, what do you think is most important in doing that? Oh, having a difficult conversation. I know that's not always fun, but sometimes it's knowing to when to have those difficult conversations. So when you see someone, you know, saying something, you know, call them out, hold them accountable. When, if you see something happen, you know, the AAPI, it's not the AAPI, I hate to have a website where if you experience lots of you witness, I see something, you know, recorded and say, this is what I witnessed, this is what happened, put awareness out there so that we can, you know, find those moments where we need to be doing where can we be supportive? Think about what allyship looks like it means for you. It could be getting involved in an organization, it could be involved in supporting what does allyship look like for you and what's important and important for you. And so I think it's very much to think about ourselves as allies and support each other, not getting bought down into what I call the struggle Olympics where, you know, we kind of compare oppression. That's not going to get anybody anywhere because the key word is oppression, shared oppressions. So thinking about how we can dismantle those systems of oppression, what are you trying to tackle with system? Are you thinking about, you know, trying to, you know, just looking at racism, is it sexism, is it whatever your, what it is, but thinking about those and how we can figure out how we can be allies to our other people as well. And so, and you know, having and doing it in a way that is genuine and important to you, making sure that you do it in a way that is authentic for your experience. And that can be as simple as, you know, organizing something for your classmates. We have no, let's have a panel about something. It can be as simple or it can be something more nuanced when you have conversations or whatever is personal to you. And I've seen what I think you all may have seen it as well. The students from, I think it was the last spring, Yellen Harbor, who wrote letters and talking about what they talk about, they were Chinese American students talking about and thinking through, but that doesn't matter what I like to know through the immigrant experience. And I think at least in some way, think about how to have this conversation in my family to break down some of those understandings and to generationally. So as always, you know, it's what you can do, but it's about what's important to you and how you can be out there and write a piece, write an op-ed, write something, kind of share your highlights as well, share information, but just be a fine way where you can be an ally and be supportive. I mean, just, you know, what can you do to help people and to make this, what a better place. And so I hope we continue to do that, continue to grow. Might want to be comfortable, I trust and believe, because everyone in my family, we all had the same racial background, we do not have all the same ideas. And so, so that's the moment where it can be quite tense. And when it comes to politics, it can be really quite tense. I'm a Democrat, so my relatives are not, and we have those moments. And, you know, it can be difficult, but you have to have those difficult conversations because I'm a firm believer that, you know, growing pains, you need, you know, growing pains is how you grow. And sometimes it's being uncomfortable that in some ways allows you to get out of your comfort, zone allows you to get out of your own space, kind of make you kind of push you out in a way that you never thought you could do. So I'm just, you know, hopefully we can have those moments and we can kind of talk about it. Because we know that race is there which you never talk about. It's never a conversation that's bought up. It's not a comfortable conversation. It's not the nice one. And I have learned to sit in that uncomfortableness. Like I go to the conference, I'm like, so how do you question about race? And they're like, oh, here she comes. But it's learning to where it, I want to bring up the conversation. So, and then sometimes we're no in the moment, no one to bring it up and just been, and having those moments and thinking about allyship and being supportive of other people and their struggle and finding ways to support each other. Well, thank you for your comments today. I think just to sort of wrap it up, something that I know a conversation has been happening against among some Epic students is the way and to tie it back to Sino-Black relations, the way that often in the whole study of international relations, race is overlooked. And I think that's something over the past couple of weeks we had a guest lecture and Epic come in and sort of talk about that. And something that students in Epic have been thinking about a lot in the past couple of weeks. And so, thank you for coming today and giving us your remarks. If anyone else has anything else they want to say at the end, that is feel free to do so now, but I want to thank Dr. Brown for joining us. This was a wonderful conversation. So, thank you for being here. Oh, thank you for the invitation and thank you for the questions. I greatly enjoyed this conversation. So, thank you all, thank you all. Thank you so much, I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much, so nice to meet you all. Nice to meet you. Bye.