 Hi, so I'm Stephanie Patrick. I'm managing editor of ad week and editor of brand week this edition you have here And I'm going to have a conversation with Jen rubio. So Jen is the Co-founder and the chief brand officer of away. It's a very young luggage company, but they've seen staggering growth in a short amount of time they've produced five hundred thousand sorry, yeah five hundred thousand suitcases and They've grown from four humble employees to two hundred in less than three years So you see this luggage probably all over your Instagram feeds and you see Jen on the cover of this magazine And now she's gonna come and join me on the stage So great to have you here, I'm so impressed with with the turnout given how many people I saw in the hotel lobby late last night But we're all here. We're excited for you So you are the first person to grace a cover of brand week Since this title was last in print in 2011 So I really went I went to the green room and replaced all the Kevin Hart magazines with mine And she was like thoroughly Instagramming every page of the magazine. Yeah, so so check out her handle. It's my mom so so Jen something that you talked with our Senior branding editor about for this story was the beginning of a way and how you got the idea I love a good origin story, and I feel like you have a good one. What sparked the idea Well, it's only a good one because it doesn't involve this this business school thing of like creating a matrix where there's opportunities to create businesses because I didn't know how to do that but essentially my luggage broke and You know, we always talk about seeing this gap in the market when that happened because I was you know Shopping and trying to find a new one, but there were kind of two gaps from the product side If you think about it, there was like really nice high quality luggage or super expensive Or just like cheap luggage that you knew was gonna break you I live near Canal Street in New York and there's just like all these like random no-name luggage stores But you knew that wasn't gonna last you and that's kind of where creating high quality luggage and an affordable price point And the direct-to-consumer model came in But that's not what really got us excited Believe it or not. I did not like grow up dreaming about selling luggage So we also identified like a more exciting gap which is in building a brand around it And if you think about legacy luggage brands people would always talk about things like like ballistic nylon or What the frame of the luggage is made out of or the wheels and the zippers? But no one actually ever talked about travel and no one ever actually talked about like the trips You would take it on sometimes you'd see marketing campaigns where it's like you know and a legacy luggage brand on like a like a boat in the middle of paradise and It was just like not realistic and and no one actually thought about The emotional part of it and I think that's that's what got us excited where We could kind of create this new brand in the travel and travel goods industry and start By creating that perfect piece of luggage I want to ask the audience how many people here have had the experience of their luggage breaking like a zipper gets stuck Roller pops off Okay, and how many of you decided to start a luggage company to solve that problem? How many you just bought a new suitcase so Jen I'm curious to know what what is it in you that? Made you want to go down the path of an entrepreneur and actually like what made you take this hard road? I think to be honest, I think a lot of it was my Was my co-founder? I don't think you need a co-founder to start a successful company, but I kind of went to her being like Hey, there's this thing that I'm seeing There's like an interesting Gap for something that doesn't exist yet and I wouldn't say like either of us were trying to start a company But the more we talked about it the more our back We had back at Warby Parker years and years earlier. She went to business school I went I moved to London to work for another brand and the more we talked about it The more we realized we could actually do it and this was kind of around the time we started the company We started working on it in 2015 in January of 2015 and it was when like the Warby Parker of everything was being pitched to Investors and we were like wait a second. We worked at Warby Parker. We can make the Warby Parker of luggage and and I think having Had that experience at a startup really pushed it, but I mean even after I don't know even if the week we incorporated the company She and I were still like Considering and negotiating jobs elsewhere. I was like I was moving back to New York I was talking to a few brands to to run marketing for them and she was she was gonna run supply chain at a direct-to-consumer startup and And we both quietly just didn't take the job offers So I don't know if we were kind of I think it actually helped that we weren't that kind of like Gung-ho entrepreneur like we're gonna start a company because it meant that we really wanted to do it Yeah, I your co-workers have told me that in some ways you're kind of a reluctant founder like that you you love the Branding aspect, but there are other parts of the job that you know You wouldn't have necessarily chosen, but you've adapted to can you tell me like what parts? What parts of the job have been hard for you and like who told you this? Depends who you spoke to I think something that nobody tells you is that you've become a founder and you hire all these people and Your job essentially becomes a lot of HR a lot of recruiting and I think you know anytime you start a company You're constantly selling the company whether it's to investors to customers to press But the team is so important and if you had told me in the beginning Hey, you can start this luggage brand, but you're gonna spend you know more than half your time recruiting and dealing with people issues within the organization and thinking about organizational development like I don't know if I would have done it Yeah, but I'm getting good and I I heard a story that in like the very early days You and Steph sat down and made post-it notes of what this company might look like in a year If it was successful and divvied up the post-it notes Yeah, so that that was that's I think that's another key part of why I was able to really wrap my head around starting this company It's because we kind of made Post-it notes of like all the departments that the company would need and we're like, okay Which ones would you want to oversee and we kind of just divvied up the post-it notes and there was like an even amount Afterwards and there were no post-it notes left. So it's kind of like okay. We have all bases covered and I think that's tough I think I see a lot of co-founder pairs or or groups where a lot of people A lot of people start companies with people they've worked with so they end up having the same background Or the same skill set and I think that's when you kind of start to see the conflict or even ambiguity around What everyone's gonna do, but from the beginning Steph and I were really clear on on the things that we were good at and the things we wanted to do and I think the sign of a great co-founder pair is when You know, she looks at my job and she looks at like the brand we cover and she's like I don't know that's like that's not for me and And I look at the things that she does and now she she runs the company She runs a very tight ship and I'm just like so grateful that That she can do all of that because I know I can't and and I think that We started with that where a lot of founders Have to figure that out down the line and it's a harder conversation Yeah, it sounds like you guys balance each other out Well, and that you do a good job of hiring for your weaknesses, right? Yeah, exactly. It's just basically across the board now. I I So I understand that really early on you guys like hit a big challenge and that you were expecting to launch for the holiday shopping season and The there was some sort of production delay, right? The bags weren't ready in time Can you talk about kind of how that was a defining moment and how you guys solve for that problem? Yeah, and it wasn't as Crisis mode as as it sounds but basically we knew we wanted to launch before the holidays. So this was in 2016 one of the one of the first things we invested in as a company was press so we hired we heard a PR agency before we hired any anyone else actually and Had lined up a bunch of great press around the brand and what we were doing and that was gonna hit in time for the holidays We had gone all these amazing gift guide placements and that was a feat in and of itself But the bags weren't gonna be ready until Like February of the next year. So I think you know, you think about what a company does they're either delay the launch which We didn't want to do like holiday such a key time You either delay the launch you maybe Do like a pre-order which I think is one of the worst things You can do as a brand because it's like no one's heard of you You want them to put money down for this product that they've never seen? And I've personally maybe I'm just like easily fooled but I've done a bunch of pre-orders and just have never gotten anything So we were like, okay, what are we gonna do? How do we show people? What kind of brand we are the kind of people we're aligned with we have like a great network of Influencers and communities who are really excited about us and how do we like keep these press placements that we're definitely not gonna get in February So we did what any normal person would do and we decided to publish a book We had No, but we we decided to publish this beautiful like coffee table book and gift box I've seen some on eBay and I can I think I can figure out who's selling them, but I We interviewed like 40 like taste makers like Adam Rappaport from Bon Appétit like just a great Like people who aren't necessarily household names or celebrities, but we're very esteemed in their communities And we asked them about where they travel and in the places they return to and in that book was a gift card For $225 for for the suitcase that was coming and people were so excited We were like this is either a great idea or we're gonna There's gonna be thousands of books in our living room for like the next 10 years And they sold out within a week like the the press came through people were I think people were more excited about the book That than the suitcase because they're like here's this incredible Brand that's all about travel the way I see it. So So yeah, it was like it was a real turnaround moment for us before we even launched and you guys have sort of Continued into publishing. I hope you don't mind if I share this So they have a custom away has a custom magazine called here that they produce in-house with an in-house editorial team What is the goal of that and and even more broadly? Can you talk a little bit more about that hole in the luggage market in terms of storytelling around travel? Yeah, well, there's a lot to unpack there. Yeah, but I so when we started here magazine you know all again all of this was around travel and around storytelling and About six months to a year and we're like, okay, we obviously need some sort of Some sort of editorial aspect of all of this Separately we had started to see this really weird thing happening where you know We would do brand campaigns and photo shoots like in Tokyo in Panama like I mean for the first year I the best job on earth and we we would post the photos and People would call our customer service line or email and say hey like saw you guys just went to Tokyo Where should we eat? Like what should we do? What hotel should we stay in and we're essentially using our customer service line as like a travel agent or for travel recommendations and and I'm not gonna name any names But I just like don't know if you could imagine doing that with any of the legacy luggage brands like calling their customers Should I say so we we definitely saw this gap in the market for For a place to kind of make those recommendations to tell those stories and going in and and building here magazine I think we realized We could really bet on it in a way that would benefit our brand either way like worst-case scenario We'd have like a really great travel blog for the company and best case This could be a standalone media division that's generating revenue generating profit for the company while also giving us this editorial platform so we started it was a kind of like a start-up within a start-up which is a Which is like what innovation labs call themselves in big companies but really for us it was like a start-up within a 15 person start-up and we We created a print magazine online magazine. We did an extension of the editorial arm and did a podcast last summer and and it was incredible we one we had the amazing distribution platform because it's going in this suitcase So it means that anyone who's buying it has like a certain amount of income Is about to travel And it's like we knew exactly who like the demographic that it's going to because we're a director consumer company And these are our customers and that actually became very appealing to advertisers and to partners So so we're going in the direction of that best case scenario, but but still at the foundation of it We're just still really proud to have the storytelling platform Yeah, this is something I think about a lot with direct-to-consumer brands I mean we see like the model is pick one thing and make it really well and make the customer service experience shine Do you think that brands can can can sustain the kind of growth that you've had with one product? Or do you need to branch out into things like this which can be risky too? Yeah, I think it's um, I think there's a lot of different ways to branch out and I think if you if you think of Well-known global brands there there is a hero product that they're they're known for or that they started with So I think a lot of the branching out has to do on the product side I mean I think one thing that's a real that's a big testament to the brand that we're building is that you know There's a lot of excitement around away, but until Until like March or April of this year all we sold was a suitcase and we started introducing Like soft goods and and the like the everywhere bag that sits perfectly on top of your suitcase and the packing cubes that go inside and expanding the travel goods line, but all of this excitement was really You know, I'd go on stage like I talk and press and say like we're We're way more than luggage and the people go on the website and so you're just one piece of luggage But but it was more about like that feeling that the people understood that we were trying to do more so When we think about our growth we think about Like brand extensions like the magazine We've done pop-up hotels which have been really successful And thinking about travel experiences that we can impact but then there's also just a huge future ahead of us in terms of product expansion and You know, do we go into travel apparel? Do we go like there's just so many directions that we can go in I? Think we're starting internally to shift our mindset from being like the direct-to-consumer luggage brand Because because we know that there's there's so much more Potential out there, and I think if you think about you know The number of people in the u.s. Especially in like coastal cities who are who use Instagram who want a hard shell suitcase? Like you're gonna hit a cap on on how brand your big can be How big your brand can be and and and for us we're just trying to think past that But we're still really just scratching the surface like we still don't have that much awareness You know and and again our first You know hundred million or so in revenue was just on that one suitcase to think about what more we can do How do you? How do you choose? Where you want to go next like which product you want to launch next do you have a way of testing that out? Yeah, so we were really One of the things we did before we even had customers was interview a ton of people Because we were actually trying to test the strategy of do we? You know do we become basically like a to me and just launch a bunch of suitcases and different types for different people or do we say? Hey, we're just gonna figure out exactly what a traveler needs and create that product for them Which is why I think we're able to To achieve that kind of growth with one product It was because we interviewed hundreds of people ask them what they wanted ask them what they needed and create a product that Basically met the the needs of most travelers And I think as we expand our product line. We're taking that same approach The best part about it is now we have hundreds of thousands of customers We have tens of thousands who have actually opted into giving us this kind of feedback that we can tap directly that we can We can do focus groups with The that can test our products beforehand and we're taking a very you know there's we have Like gut feelings and instinct about what we should launch next But we have an amazing customer base to test that on yeah, and I understand you you have a partnership now We've come out with a backpack with Carly Klaus is that right? Is that a way for you to sort of test the waters and see if there's an actual market for this or if it you know Can be sort of one and done Yeah, I think so we've so we did a collaboration with Carly Klaus earlier this year and One of the things in her capsule collection was a backpack we did Another collaboration with Dwayne Wade I think that's out today and One of the things and there was like a wine case So I think the collaborations are are an interesting way to test if if actually if we can make the products But the it's not a great test for if consumers really want it because all the collections sell out a lot of it is based on Like we don't make enough to properly test it But I do think it is just What we do with the collaborations it's more a reflection of what that person Wants to create and how they travel and we see based on Like Instagram comments and based on customer emails if those products are something we should make in the long run and I'm curious to know your thoughts about the longevity of Influencer marketing and I know I've seen a lot of brands pop up that feel like they're made for Instagram They look beautiful. They're really aspirational There are these great influencer partnerships, but it's relatively new in terms of the history of brands We don't know what kind of staying power these these brands have like are they are they built for the moment? Or are they built to last? I have no idea. I think We'll see It's actually crazy because every time I open Instagram I just get an ad for like this new I mean how easy it is to actually Create a product whether it's good or not But you can like you can find factories online you can You know whip up some logo like I think like the bare bones of like what it takes to to start a company like the bar is lower than ever and you can just like go on Instagram spend a bunch of money on on Instagram and Facebook ads acquire some customers and then All of a sudden you have this Like you have like a million dollars in sales, but you just you just don't know where that's gonna go And I think over the next few years. We'll see a lot of a Lot of companies, you know like come in and out of the market. I think the the companies that are doing this to have a long-term effect or that Companies like us that we want to be around for decades We'll just have to approach it really differently like we don't inject all of our All of our marketing dollars on Facebook. We don't we don't just want to pay to acquire customers And I think you can do that, but also you're gonna hit your cap like very very quickly So I think the companies who are focused on building the teams and building the culture and building the relationship with the customers So that when they want to expand past that first product you already have that that pent up demand those are the ones that are gonna last and curious to to get your predictions about Direct to consumer brands in the sense. Are we heading toward a future where as customers? We're going to be you know buying every individual product, you know Directly from a brand or is this just a right fit for a certain kind of product? I think I think there is You're gonna want to buy things from a brand if you have an emotional connection for the brand And if you don't you're gonna buy it from Amazon. That's how I shop now, and I think that There's not really an in-between even if there's like Let's think about fashion even there's a fashion brand that I like and even if they're in department stores And they're not on Amazon. I'm gonna go out of my way to buy from that brand whether it's because like the merchandising is is is better on their site or Or maybe because I know about how margins work and I want to support that brand, but I think I think that's really For the average consumer It's gonna be about ease and convenience and the only reason that you would Go beyond something that's really easy and really convenient is if you have an emotional connection with that brand You can buy a suitcase on Amazon Won't be as good but But people go out of their way and go on our website to order from us because of the experience that we provide and because of like the The journey that we take them on And because they want to be associated with that brand and before we existed like luggage had really just become a Commodity, so I think over the next few years you'll see a lot of Products that you thought were a commodity like maybe cleaning supplies or cookware and you'll see like more and more brands pop up To kind of to fill that like emotional void But I think there were just some categories that don't lend themselves that well to emotional connection I think what you said about emotional connection is probably the big takeaway here that That people are going to buy from brands where they feel emotional connection if they don't they're gonna go to Amazon Or they're gonna go to someplace that feels maybe a little less personal I'm curious to know if you Picked up any lessons from your time at Warby Parker about creating that kind of emotional connection with a customer I know you were the social social media manager there, right? Yeah, I think And this was in like 2011 where we partners just starting out and I remember all of my friends were like You're gonna go sell glasses online. Like that's so weird Like it was weird, but it was a good move it worked out. Yeah, I worked out pretty well, but I think it was a lot of Honestly, I think part of it was like we were it's kind of like with with luggage Like no one who had worked at Warby Parker then was like one day. I'm gonna sell glasses and it's gonna be amazing People were drawn to the mission to the brand to the way they talked about it and and you know Warby Parker has stayed largely a They just sell glasses but people like what it stood for and people like the stories we were telling and the way we kind of drew the emotional connection there was like through things like the home try-on like getting people really excited to try different pairs of glasses and And getting like online feedback about it and those are the things we were doing in the very early days of the brand I think it away We get to have a lot more fun. It's not just it's not just It's not just about the product. It's like travel is inherently so emotional already and part of the reason we saw that that gap for a brand like us is that You know people As you guys know like you guys are only gonna go back to the office after this trip and you're like talk about palm springs and all The stuff that's happened all your coworkers are gonna be like, okay we got it like you went on a trip and Ever if you've ever like sat next to anyone who just came back from a vacation It's like it's all they can talk about so there's already this this narrative that we can tap into that I actually think was a lot harder to do with glasses and I want to shift gears for a moment and talk a little bit about the culture within your company and One thing that I know a way did I think before you even sold a single luggage was partnering with a non-profit called peace direct and I understand that every single employee of yours also has a role in that non-profit Can you tell me a bit more about that and specifically how that affects the culture within your organization? Yeah, so before Before we sold a single piece of luggage be where Steph and I were kind of like okay, we're building this thing It has the potential to fail, but it also has the potential to be really successful And the way we both see it is is kind of like what's the point of creating a company if you're not gonna have like a net? Positive impact on the world like we didn't want to we we definitely don't want to fail but we don't want to be successful at like at the expense of a lot of other things so we knew that We wanted to just just to do really well, but also do good in the world and We had obviously come from like the Warby Parker one-for-one model But it's actually probably no one's ever heard of our partnership with peace direct because it hasn't been super outward facing We're starting to talk about it a little bit more, but we You know we believe that like travel is this like inherently powerful thing it like opens you up to new cultures gives you new ideas But there's just so much going on in the world where We're a lot of like the the disagreements and misunderstandings in the world Just stem from people not Not understanding other cultures so peace direct is this organization that works on the ground with peace building and peacekeepers like some of the projects we worked on are like we went to the Congo and Helped reintegrate child soldiers Into into their communities and and just it's just very local very hands-on work and we've donated To them financially, but also every single person at away Uses their skills to help them so our design team help them with a rebrand Like our comms team like just like just gets like PR pieces for them Are like our product development team has like made things for them to sell so so they can fundraise And I think that's been really valuable because we also just We like to remind our team that They have all of these talents and it just doesn't have to go towards like on a like a the grand side of things like selling this amazing travel brand or Like on the worst days just selling luggage It can actually do some good in the world and I think that's made a huge impact on our culture And I'm gonna ask you one more question before we throw to the audience We're gonna have plenty of time for questions from you guys so be thinking But I think that as a founder you have a unique experience to build the culture of your organization from the ground up And you'd had a number of work experiences before starting away What kind of culture do you want to have what did you want to bring in and what did you want to leave out? I? think there's this there's This misconception when you're starting a company that you just like have to know more than everybody else like otherwise Why would you be the boss, and I think? Steph and I learned really early on that the way we could succeed faster and and do better as a team is just Like through humility like we know Our goal is to just hire people who are way better than us in the things that they do And I think You know that there's a huge part of our culture like we hire people who are experts at what they do For example our like our team that works on content and influencers I think rivals any influencer agency out there, but they just get to work on our brand the whole time And and because of that we've just built these like amazing pockets of like really deep talent in in the Organization, and we just like empower them to to run with it, and I think You know people talk a lot about empowerment in internal cultures, but for us We don't want someone to start it away and say like okay What do you want me to do? We want them to be telling us what we should be doing in their field And and we've done that from the beginning nice So I'm gonna throw out to the audience any questions that you have Jemima and Christie, I believe will be Coming by with a microphone here in the front My question was just about the book part So you're faced with this challenge so early in the evolution of this company and so many fail where you guys ended up kind of Coming up with a solution a solution that actually worked out there So I know you already talked about it Can you spend maybe just an extra minute talking about who not necessarily who came up with the idea? But how did that gestation kind of come about okay? But can you speak a tiny bit more about that because it's those aha moments in some ways that could have tipped You know if you'd given up could have gone the exact opposite direction So how collaborative was the process and how did it work? Yeah, I mean it's to be clear I think that if we didn't do the book it's not that we wouldn't have launched I think that we would have just launched it like a worse time in the year We'd have gotten less press it would have been less exciting So I actually think like we had this good idea to launch with a suitcase and get a bunch of press around it But then the thing that we did turned out to be a better idea And and I I have no idea Like if it would have affected like how the brand took off what people thought of us, but I do know that really Counting on the fact that like storytelling was going to be a big part of what we were building Actually gave us the confidence to do that because otherwise it was a lot of money to it's like hire a writer It's interview all these people to like print these really beautiful books and it was a risk that that we took But but I think at the end it was like it was a long play and and it worked out In the middle thanks Doug Look at that teamwork Exactly As a follow-up to that question actually the battery ban I feel like you guys have these kind of moments throughout the the lifespan of your company so early on What is it about a way that's made you so resilient? Yeah, it's actually funny people are like there's all these bad things that have happened You guys are so resilient. I'm like for people like what were the challenges? I'm like, I don't know if there were any they're like, were you around for the battle? I think it's like it's a testament to how we kind of Just like Approach things in the organization. Like we're so iterative. We change things all the time Like we don't ever feel like there's been one huge crisis or one big failure because like everyone's like consistently Mobilized and changing things and it's part of the day today For those of you that don't know the airlines basically Decided like around Christmas time like the busiest travel travel period That you couldn't bring lithium let you couldn't check lithium ion batteries Anymore if you're a gate checking it you take them out and our carry-ons have a built-in battery That was always removable from the inside But in that and admittedly like a more annoying process than it is now We had actually when we first designed the battery. We're like, okay, we have to make it removable We had gotten the feedback before all of this happened from our customers that they wish there was an easier way to take the battery out So it was something that we were working on already and something that we had rolled out before the battery ban But but it wasn't something we publicized So like the new bags had it the older bags didn't and that meant that our tens of thousands of like early Adopters and first customers were trying to board these planes And the airlines were being horrendous to them Like they weren't letting them board like people were missing their flights like People were looking for screwdrivers in the airport like there weren't that many So we actually like Just rallied the whole team around it what we did was we offered a free Retrofit program so anyone who had the old type of battery Could send it in or we could send them a DIY kit to replace theirs And this this could have been like there's so many things like I think a lot of it was luck We had already had the fix And and we wanted to to commit and and really invest in our early customers by doing this for them It actually put two of our competitors out of business completely And I think it was then I mean obviously it was a lot of work But it was then that we realized how big of a deal it could have been like for us It was just like business as usual. Let's try to do right by our customers. Let's switch out their batteries But then when we heard the news that like the other companies like didn't survive this this like crisis We realized like we could have been really screwed. Yeah, but I think it's like never waste a crisis. We had You know, we got so many Positive like tweets and emails about this about customers who were like, this is amazing that always doing this Like we also were doing a lot of work behind the scenes with the airlines to try to help improve the customer experience So I think it was just like really actually brand defining for us in the way we handled it Other questions Okay First of all, congratulations amazing company. We've heard a lot about it. I'm the chairman of the Sports Agents Association and We have travel events our athletes and entertainers travel a tremendous amount I love the fact that you had a collaboration with D Wade But we have industry specific things where our athletes Executives and industry insiders go places together. Have you ever thought about doing a collaboration? With a destination in mind for a whole industry or is it would be just one-on-one athlete entertainer or whatnot? No, I think from like a collaboration and partnership standpoint We're open to a lot of things one of the things we're actually rethinking now is you know, we've done we've done We've built this amazing platform as a brand to do collaborations with With anyone from Carly Claus and Dwayne Wade to We did a collaboration with with the Star Wars franchise for the launch of their movie We've done things with with like the apparel brand made well So it's actually incredible how we've been able to collaborate with lots of different industries and lots of different people But as we look at You know the kind of company we want to be in 2019 and and further down the line. We've realized that we need to really rethink the way we do our collaborations and structure them in a way where There's a lot more impact. So I mean, I think there's just a lot There's a lot that we haven't done yet. And I think if we were to do The same type of collaboration in 2018 as we have in 2018 It just like wouldn't make as much of a dent in in the revenue that we're trying to create for next year. So Open to ideas Gil Is that right or no in the back? Sorry Thanks, you talked about legacy brands who have they've spent billions and billions and decades Building these amazing brands that people know What are some simple things that they can do to get the love back from consumers that all these disruptors are taking away? What so what are some of the things that legacy brands can do to get the love back? Yes And So there's a reason I don't work at a legacy brand because I actually think I would be really terrible at it I tried and It didn't work out, but I think it's like If you think about all of the new brands that are popping up They are the ones that are working are successful because they are creating that that connection with the customer And I still think I still think there's a lot of legacy brands that are doing Amazing things to connect with their customer I think on both sides whether you're a new start-up or legacy brand if you're just trying to chase Trends and trying to chase platforms without thinking about Who you really are or the story you're trying to tell like either like anyone can fail And I and I think that's that's been the most important thing. I also think like for us we had to It was like a real wake-up call for us over the last few months of like, okay We've been we've been striving to be like a top tier direct-to-consumer brand and if you kind of look at the landscape like We're doing it or we did it and we need to set our sites higher And I think for both sides it doesn't mean totally reinventing the wheel like we don't need to change like every aspect of how We sell things whether it's online or offline or how we get customers Like there's a reason there are legacy brands with billions of dollars in annual revenue and that we're not there yet so I think it's like no matter what kind of brand you are like having the the Humility to to know that you can succeed or you can fail either way and also just knowing Knowing who your customer is and knowing who you are and creating that relationship And I'm gonna ask you sort of a final question or almost give you a final challenge to wrap up here Okay, so I want to imagine that there's an away carry-on right here And we're going to pack this suitcase for a future founder. Maybe even somebody in the room. Okay, so just start What color is the bag? It's the aluminum one. I just think it's like the most common. All right and What's an item that you can't travel without this person should not travel without like like metaphor clear My co-founders in it It's a large suitcase and stuff is inside and stuff fit Is there an item that you have to have with you when you travel? I do Actually, I tweeted about how this was a lie, but I pretend to do all my work on planes. So Like someone tweeted the other day like I'll do it on the plane is the biggest live ever told. Yeah But that's me I always bring noise-canceling headphones just like no matter where you're sitting and like there are noises to drown out It's good when you're pretending to work. Yeah, exactly Um, and what is like a book or a podcast that this person should have? I'm a huge fan of how I built this I think it's just Like all founders interesting stories every single one is different And and the host guy I think really just goes in deep and tries to figure out like People's motivations and intentions behind what they did versus just like saying what they did And we're gonna go metaphorical here. What kind of employee Does this person need to bring along for the ride? Someone who's smarter than you Yeah, and what is the one thing you have to leave behind? I think just like any preconceived notions of what you think you're supposed to be doing Like anytime I've ever tried to be like, okay, we're this phase in the company and this is what we should be doing I've been totally wrong And and a big part of what I've really just been doing over the last Few years is just like asking a ton of questions like knowing when you don't know something I you know, I think your employees look will look to you a lot to To answer their questions But I think you can really only answer in like the context of the business and if you're smart like You will figure out what you don't know and and find the people that will give you that answer Jen, thank you so much. Thanks guys Thank you