 Hello and welcome to Pookie Ponders, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. Today's question is, what can adults do to make the pain a child feels after losing a parent a little more bearable? And I'm in conversation with Ian and Phoebe Gilbert. Hi, my name is Ian Gilbert. I set up a company called Independent Thinking nearly 28 years ago to work primarily with young people around thinking skills, learning and motivation and memory and creativity. And over the years that transformed into an organization that supports schools around the world in all sorts of areas to help schools be better at doing what they do and help education do its job of making the world better. And that that that life is sort of divided into two in many ways. The first part of those years was working in the UK and having children having a family and then things changed drastically. And the second part of that life from an education from a work point of view I've worked in lived and worked in various parts of the world in the Middle East in South America in Asia. And now partly spent my time partly in Wales where I'm speaking from now and glorious isolation and also in Rotterdam. So that's that's in a nutshell that's that's me. My turn. So I'm Phoebe. I'm Ian's daughter. I'm a recent graduate at Hallam University in Sheffield. I have done a few of the books of my dad concerning loss which came after we lost my mum at the age of nine. From this, I felt really inspired more recently as I grew older to to make a change around loss and then I am now the founder of Kutchi Care. And yeah, I've stuck a way to go. Yeah, tell me about Kutchi Care. So Kutchi Care, a Kutchi is a Welsh term and it's one of the terms that genuinely got us through our most rubbish days after we lost mum. It's more than a cuddle, you know that if if one of us is in need of a Kutchi it's just to be held and to be in such a safe space. And I wanted to kind of create that physically so that people who are struggling could have that have that whenever they needed it really. So that's what Kutchi is and that's what Kutchi Care is trying to do at the minute. So that's where my my focus has been on. Well, explore. I love the word Kutchi. It's one of my favorite words in all the world. So people listening in from anywhere really other than Wales. Which I think is it C-W-T-C-H? Is that how it's done in English? And yeah, it's a word that was introduced to me by colleagues in Wales. And yes, I think that's wonderful that you've named your business. I think we all need a kutch on some days, don't we? 100% most definitely. So our episode question and we definitely want to learn more about Kutchi Care later on. So I'm banking that question. But the episode question today is what can adults do to make the pain a child feels after losing a parent a little more bearable? And Ian, maybe if you wouldn't mind kicking things off with your first thoughts on that. Yeah, thank you. That is such an important question. When we lost my wife, Leslie, all those years ago, we're those track of the time. 12 years ago, Phoebe, I can't remember. There's nothing that there's nothing schools can do. The quick answer to that is nothing. The pain is there for everybody, for every member of the family in our situation, we battled with my wife's mental health issues for many, many years. So, so there was the turmoil of living with somebody with mental health issues and the unpredictability and the stress levels that that brings to the house. If anybody's heard me say this on another platform, any other platforms and I apologize, but it's worth saying this idea that the family suffered the illness in a different way, but they suffer the illness and they don't get the attention and the care and certainly we didn't get any care or any support. We don't get the medicine. We don't get the sympathy. We just have to deal with whatever, whatever happened. It was incredibly, we had an incredibly stressful life and childhood was, was, was, was robbed. So Phoebe is my youngest. Olivia is you've got to help me with the ages Phoebe Olivia is 25, 26 now. Okay, so sort of five years difference and then William is 31 so he was five years again different so at the time then, William was at college and he was, well the last time he saw his mum was on his 18th birthday. He was so 13 and you were nine. So we had infant school as it was then we were living in Suffolk secondary school and college. So, so all schools in their different ways had helped or not us through the illness part of it and then suddenly there was this, which in many ways was a shock for everybody because so much of it is hidden with mental health, there was around alcohol and abusive, abusing substances and things. And there's so much that there was then so much shame and so much denial. I'm not a huge royalist but one of the things that I'm most thankful to princes Harry and William for is that he started talking about mental health which meant it got into the daily telegraph, which meant other families could talk about these issues and the stigma went whereas we were dealing with something that you had to keep hidden. And then the, then then when the death, it was a tragic accident. When that happened it, it, there was a piece that fell that's my perception if he can can give her perspective perspective as well but there was a piece that fell. There was a distress from what happened before, which was then also met with the most terrible pain, and there isn't anything that anybody can do to to take that pain away. And what people, what I noticed or what we all noticed the response was people either did something or did nothing, and something is always better than nothing. And those who said I didn't know what to say so I didn't say anything I think I refer to that in what what became our little book of bereavement and is now independent thinking on last could be updated it because I wanted them to see the hope and the positivity and the possibility for children as they get older through this. But I just saw that as a form of moral cowardice. I don't know what to do so I'm not going to do anything it's just that's, that's, that's the worst possible thing, do something, you can make a cake you can say hello you can send a card you can send a bunch of flowers you can, you can do something and something is better than nothing so I think I think that's that's probably the starting point for this conversation what can schools do. It's to do something and not hushed and not pretend it hasn't happened and not not discuss it, and not support the parent, the remaining parent as well, and, whereas, I got a bit of support from some parts of that those that three tears in the conversation in other places I just got sympathetic looks and people avoiding me. You know in the in the school when I went so you know you just you got to. It's the hardest possible thing and nothing you can do is going to help, but you got to do something. So I think that would be the starting point for for that my answer to that question. I think from you following on and saying, you know, do something those people who say well they didn't know what to do, so they chose to do nothing. I think it comes from a fear of making it worse but you can't make it worse. The truth is with, we're experiencing the worst thing wouldn't much rather you do something and get it it's not even wrong I don't think that's the right time but not. Maybe it's not going to take anything away but at least it's something. So I think yeah I think that's the perfect place to start and schools were so essential in all of this because all three of us are in school. And school is where I found out mum had mum had passed away Olivia found out mum had passed away and so I just, yeah, I don't think you can take it away but there is so much that can be done. I think that for me it was being there and remembering people need to just remember and if you can remember specific days or birthdays. If I give me another look or a cuddle it will just take take some of it away I think. I think that's that's there's an ongoing. There's what happened what to do immediately. And then there's that ongoing thing and I think schools and people and humans can get it wrong. Maybe not the right word but not not not do what was needed at the time at that precise time and then over time. And I think those who did get it right then sometimes feel that okay well you've moved on or I don't want to reawaken an old wound or and that shows an understanding but maybe we can sort of come back to that if I can just go back to that that day Phoebe said you know she found out about it at school so so I'm in the position on that day where I've now got to go to tell my three children what has happened. Weirdly was the Alton towers so I'm and we've always talked about life being a roller coaster and a roller coaster being better than the teacups. Just around around and they're perfectly safe but you know at the end of the day who wants to get the roller coaster is. It's it, you know, peaks and troughs happy is happy very happy very sad sometimes hashtag happy sad all at the same time. And then the fact that William was actually my son was actually Alton towers about to go on a roller coaster and I had to text in this is before what's out this is just text on mobile phones. You know just can you come home and what's happened and just come home and he needed needed to know and so I could have to tell him that way. So he's on his way back and then I had to go to Olivia secondary school. I remember just you know I need my daughter to come out of the lesson, and I need somewhere to talk to her because of this is what's happened. And they have no space they had nowhere, no front office no, nowhere near that we could be probably nobody was prepared to sort of leave their office for 10 minutes while I, I ended up, maybe was brought to me at the front and then I had to walk halfway through all these sort of halfway through a school to these down these corridors with her going what's what's going on dad what's going on to find a space to close the door to then tell her, and then leave the school. And that that was, that was, and that was awful, just, you know when you know when when the front of office stuff know what's happened you know you're going to find a office somewhere to free up that sort of space and in Phoebe's which is a lot smaller so an infant school. That's what happened you know the head teacher had left her office, so I had that space, and then was able to sort of speak to the head teacher afterwards so it's just. It might sound like a little thing, but having a school, having some sort of procedure by which when there is some bad news to be broken that there is a procedure that will allow that to happen quickly and safely and securely with the minimum of first not dragging my daughter by a hand through halfway through the middle of the school. So this this this those little things that you get you wouldn't really think of until you go through it and then you realize that they are that they are important. So one of the things why we wanted to write this book. We'd seen a program, probably I don't know five, six months after, after Leslie died where I think it was John Craver's news round I think it was wasn't it and it was people set in Bristol and they were talking about grief and loss and, and how it was hard to talk have children talking about it. So we thought well we've got we've got an experience let's put we just put like a four sheet together of 10 things 12 things we think schools got right schools got wrong this is was useful. And that's what then became the book, which was a little book of bereavement for schools with the pebble on and I'll let Phoebe talk about the pebbles and the puddle in the minute. So we've just updated it as now as we've got new for independent thinking press, which is the independent thinking series of books independent thing produce. We've got independent thinking on loss, which is the core of the book is the same as the bereavement book I didn't want to update, I don't want to go back into there and update that because it was a place in time and it was raw and personal and needed to be that way but in the new book. What's happened is I've updated the forward with a bit more of the research now that there is more research in this area, especially by Winston's wish with Cambridge University week and perhaps come back to that so maybe bank bank that question as well pookie. Yeah, I'm banking it. But, you know, because if that was written 10 years after the event then I wanted. I wanted my kids to write a new forward and where they were in their lives now with Phoebe she was at university and Williams in Dubai and Melody's in Melbourne, and they're all, they're all good. They've all been through it they're all raw and they're all hurt and they're all damaged, but they're all good. And that's okay because one of the things I didn't realize is that what the research did show was that a child who's is things like more likely to live in on the streets more likely to drop out of education more likely to be on alcohol more likely to be on drugs more likely to be on cigarettes more likely to die early. I think I said living on the streets, and then if you throw in mental health issues at home throw in alcohol issues at home and then all of those things are compounded. And the statistics point to all three of my kids should have should be not in the good place that they are, that they are now and I think that's one of the things maybe we can sort of touch on how what schools can do to help the the remaining parent that sort of work work towards that. But yeah the research shows that that and they don't even feature in the aces, the adverse childhood experiences losing a parent isn't one of the 10. Divorces I think isn't it? Divorces and abuse and sexual abuse and violence and witnessing all of that so you know some terrible things are but but but the fact that just just losing a parent you know you don't hit an aces aware school this is means that we need to embrace the aces but know that it's not complete. And that just because they don't hit those buttons that point score if you like, but there's nothing to see here. What are your thoughts Phoebe kind of hearing that from your dad that you know on paper your prospects shouldn't have been great but here you are today and you're telling us about your new venture and I think it means that we're doing something right that we've done. We've done something right and I think it all led from just from being honest and speaking how we are now we we're open we want to speak to people about it because it's it's going to be the best way forward I think in the UK especially part of our society we find death really uncomfortable topic. Whereas I think how open we are from before mum died and all the way through during and after we were honest and I think that's what has got us here why we have gone completely the opposite way where statistics have said we should be. And I think it's I think it's about having a unit and having people that you can rely on. I think that's where we school because that's where we are most of the time but also your family and your friends and those people that that can help I think that's where what we should look at the support network that we can have around us more. Schools schools have a part to play in that as well so when I talk about the extent to which the schools were supportive of the remaining parent. It's hard to explain but you know when you've got two parents or two carers that's 5050 and then when it's down to one it feels like a whole lot more than just double. It's an incredible challenge, I suppose and there are all that sorts of stress involved in it as well as dealing with your own grief and what you can do with your own life is all of that so anything the school can do to support that remaining parent in their support of the children is worthwhile so my son's college. They were great they, they, you know that his tutor had me in with will, and they went through his grades and went through his target grades and went through what was needed and it was all. It was incredibly caring, but it wasn't cuddly, you know it was, we want to support you this is what needs to happen in order for willing to fulfill his potential at this college and move on. It was exactly what was, what was needed it was, it was, it was precise it was firm it was academic it was caring, it was professional and it was just 100% 100% right and he got those grades and this is where you get have a situation where you know he probably wouldn't have got those grades dealing with the chaos of, of what had to be going on before his mum died, but that sense of peace and we just were left with the, with the pain and that's you can deal with that. So he was able to focus on his studies and get to Durham University and sort of go on, go on from there and you know set out on his life really. So that that that level of support of the parent I would suggest is helps and to for the school to be aware of what who else the parent remaining parent has got the support of, and the children got support top so in our case it was my, my parents. When you've got a world of chaos, the rocks are important. Not the pebbles, we'll come back to that Phoebes but the rocks, the things that don't move, the things that the chaos spins around. And, and, and, yeah, for, for us it was you know my, my parents were all the way through that and, and still are. They're still on my mum's just because we've opened up the border between England and Wales at this point in our history. Now, I can see my mum for the first time in eight months so she's out in the garden now sort of, but she's still there looking after us. She's good. The pebble Phoebes so just I keep talking about that. We need to know about the pebble. If you want to join in cookie at all just just let us know. I'm happy just listening you go for it. I kind of get into the zone so the, all of this stuff is in my little box in my head so I'm just listening to you as well that I'm just getting back into all of it. As it's quite a difficult one to touch but it needs to be touched upon. And I think we've learned that there are specific terms that have helped us in our family. So coach being one, and absolutely love it and I still use it. The pebble and the puddley day is two of the things that I wouldn't have to communicate with Dad and say I'm really having an awful day. I could just say I'm having a puddley day and that was it you knew. So pebble came from the pebble in my pocket. It was from when I remember kind of going through it when I was little and how I still see it and I share it with a lot of my other friends who have also lost someone close to them. So it's in your pocket it's always there. You can always pick it out as the grief is there you pick it out and you can look at it and you can, you know, be with it when you need to but you can put it back, put it back down. I think that's kind of still how I see it. Tell me if I'm, if I've kind of mixed up on being nine to now. Nana we spoke at a conference I was asked to speak at a conference in north Wales I think, and I asked you and Livy if you wanted to come along and I think was it both did both of you come along to that one I think such a long time ago. And that was the first time that we sort of spoke openly about, and it was a good audience of teachers and social workers and, and one of the teachers there one of the delegates talked about the pebble that it was something it's you feel it it's a lump it's uncomfortable. But you don't have to have it in your hand the whole time but you can put it out and take it out and you it might be hourly or daily or every other day and it's there and then you can sort of you put it away again so that's where that came from which is why we put the pebble. That's why we did the original book on there, but then the puddle that was from the. It was Olivia had a big thing where she went to school to school and home is home. So whereas Phoebe in her infant school was happy to for the school to be a little bit more aware of what was going on at home both before and after as he died and have the support and the care and know that there could be time out. So this is what's going on. Olivia just wanted to go to school and not have any of that sort of stuff just school to school and home is home and that's what we want. And one of the things because I wanted to make sure they were getting whatever support they felt they needed I went with her to the local doctor service just to speak to the like the counselor there but it was away from school. And one of the things the counselor said it was the children grieving puddles adults grieving rivers children grieving puddles so do you want to explain that one feed. For me and and the way I use it and the way I feel it still to this day is that, you know, for me a puddle I'm going to go in it if I'm going to go in it I'm not going to. I'm not going to not be able to get back out of it I can get back out of it but for the time being when I'm in it I feel it, and it's rubbish and I hate I still hate it probably a day, but you can always get out of it, whereas it was adults grieving. What was it dad rivers rivers yeah it's a constant continuous. Yeah, yeah. For me it's it felt more like waves to be honest you remember writing about it at the time you just it's like you're standing on the shore and just suddenly this way just you know it's coming and it just wash is nothing you can do it just washes over and then it sort of recede and then another one's going to come. It could be why you're driving the car giving the supermarket could be in the middle of the night could be out walking the dog just it just it's that sort of relentlessness. About it but yeah the puddle it's it's like you're in it and then you come out, but the one of the again back to that original question what can schools do it's helping. Helping children other children especially young children when all children really know that that's okay. Because what I remember Phoebe coming back from school you know really upset one of the days not long afterwards and it was something and the changing rooms wasn't it Phoebe, and it was you know well I don't you know you're lying your mum hasn't died because you're not crying. Do you want to explain that one bit more. Yeah, it was because I think they just expected if someone you knew had died if your mum had died that was it life was over. You've got to be a mess, you know, but it wasn't and to be honest at the age of nine how I dealt and felt grief then compared to throughout the years. It wasn't a case of crying all the time. It works especially at such a young age you can't really comprehend what's happening so you have a moment where you feel it and it's awful. And then the moment where you just want to be nine again and I just wanted to be young and I just wanted to have my friends and play in the playground. But the fact that someone had taught that girl that it was okay to say, you know, you know, yeah she's not dead you're not crying or wherever she got that thought from that such a young age is just yeah beyond me and that is what I just want to change around it grief isn't just someone miserable. It's so much more it's it's this it's us moving on and not you know we haven't forgotten mum and I still miss about your move and you live and you laugh again, and then we get to nine plus one which is another term. But there's just so much more to it than just your mom's not dead because you're not crying. I think that's something that I end up having to remind adults often when you know how we support children is it can seem a little bit perplexing and and sometimes you know to a remaining parent that a child might be really deeply upset at the loss of parent but then the next minute they're laughing and that can feel very difficult as an adult to understand. But I do think it's it's really important and actually children probably is the nine year old in the family you were the best placed to process that grief in a normal and healthy way because you haven't yet had society telling you how one should should grief. What do you think your school could or should have done your schools could do now to support children to support their peers because presumably in that situation how your friends did react and the things that they did and said to you and you would make a big difference to your ability to manage what do you think children need to know and be taught about this. So I was really one of the lucky ones out of us three my school at the time and was just brilliant so they gave dad the space to kind of break the news and then sent us flowers. They then did a little class with all of my peers and made all of my peers make a card to which I still have all of them. For me it wasn't that wasn't just about the support that I had and how loved I felt and how, you know touching it was but that also taught those nine year olds how to respond to grief throughout the rest of their lives. So I can never ever felt that but there were other schools where I was made to sit in the Mother's Day assembly. Wow. And I just remember people just the looks that you got not because people are being mean but it's that look of you know when people are looking at you thinking I wish you're crying yeah is she. She realized that it's Mother's Day assembly isn't she hasn't got one she should be in here. And so there are just places schools that some did it right and some didn't I've been in 16 different schools now and I think schools where you join and you haven't lost your parent whilst you were there. Think that it's not their issue and it's not their problem. Wow. I need to be reminded that actually you are one of their students you come with a history like everyone else does and they need to work out how to support you individually. You know it's not just one framework and I will, I will, I think I've said this before but for me and my sister if we were in the same school it shouldn't be the same framework how everyone grieves is different. And we need to make adaptions and talk that is what we need to be doing we need to talk we need to talk to the child we need to talk to the the parent that's been left. There's so many different people in this it's not just right. Here's the framework here's what we're going to do. I've helped you I've done what I needed to do you should be fine now off you go. There's so much to it. No. What, what, so some of the schools then they thought it wasn't their issue but what about schools that got it right what did it look like when they they got it right. Oh gosh. When we finally got to one that got it right. I think it was the remembering of specific days so my form tutor when we were in Hong Kong was just brilliant and finally got, you know, grasp the hold of what you needed to do and it was you know, have a cuddle and in UK schools that you'd probably do that with your teacher was so lovely and she did remember and that was one of the most important things was just finally having someone who you knew when you got to school would know that if that day you need a little moment you could take it, or if you seemed a bit grumpy, it was okay. It was just that it was being remembered because I think when mum died you have like those two weeks where everyone's thinking of you everyone's messaging everyone sending you emails and flowers and, and then the funeral passes, and there is just such a lol of loneliness. Because people go back to life, whereas yours is completely changed. So, yeah, sorry I went on a tangent but that's where my brain was going. It's a beautiful tangent. One of the lessons in the book is that grief is exhausting. Was that, from whom did that come within the family or was that something you all felt. Probably each and every one of us all of us I think. It takes it out of you. I must say it just from the from the bottom of your stomach it just drains you completely. And I think I say there's like an oxymoron really in the book between, you've got to put the pressure on them to keep up their schoolwork because you don't want that to fall behind for this. But on the hand, you mustn't put the pressure on them to keep up their schoolwork because there's all this other stuff and then when they come back from school they've got to go through all sorts of levels of awfulness. It's a hard one to get right and I think having there isn't a framework. So let's keep the conversations going. Let's speak to the parents, the carers, let's speak to the child. Let's keep these communication going on an ongoing basis so we know what is best and when to put the pressure on. Like we had with my son when to take the pressure off, like with Olivia a little bit, when to distract. When she went back to school, the first thing she went when she went back to school was there was it was because it was, we were talking about, you know, getting into the summer term or it was in the summer term, June. So the school had had a like an activities week so they went there was some drama thing that she went back to do that so there wasn't lessons but there was that so I went back into school that that was the first time I'd gone back in after the after having to go and find Olivia. And it wasn't an attraction, it wasn't academic it was theater but then I. People talked about the quick. Again, I don't know when people might be listening to this podcast but we've just had the funeral of Prince Philip and the Queen sitting there on her own. In black with a black mascot and people saying how lonely it is but grief is incredibly isolating she could have been surrounded by 1000 people and she would still be the loneliest woman in the world and I'm sitting in this theater event in the school hall feeling like the loneliest person in the world and no yeah people weren't talking to me but they could have done and their head teacher sort of just rolled not rolled her eyes but she looked sympathetic and started crying and crossed the room and the head of year just refused to speak to me and it was just, it was lonely enough as it was but then going there was even lonelier and I was just just desperate to just grab hold of Olivia and just leave as quickly as I possibly could. So yeah just just ask, just ask just talk just keep the communication going don't think okay we've set a path. That's it because it could change because one week it could be something and next week you could be something else so just keep the communication going I know it's hard and I know teachers are busy but put you know just put something in there and put the anniversary in the diary so that in a year's time that you can just say hi Phoebes I know it's a rough day, how are you feeling or should we go and grab a cup of tea or just some connection even if you end up the child steers you away from talking about the lost parent talks about the football or whatever that it's okay it's connection that's what we in an isolating state and the sense of connection the sense of people at least trying to reach out is so it's so helpful to put the anniversary. Remember the mother's day remember the birthdays, the first the first year especially for all of these sorts of things but you know Christmas. All these anniversaries all these significant events count even some holidays, you know they all they all have a resonance that's different now from from how they were before the nine plus one. Just to sort of just while we're on the subject of that it's okay to be okay. One of the first outings I had was when a colleague of mine independent thinking is also a he's a head teacher now and a good friend. Jim Smith invited me to go and do some work in his school because he knew it would be a friendly environment to go out and do that and we had a couple of years a night before and he'd lost his father quite young. And I was saying that there won't be a 10 out of 10 moment anymore, there won't be a wedding, a birth, a christening that will be complete. And he was saying but it. No, but it will be complete but in a different way. So it won't be 10 that it will be nine plus one out of 10. And that was such I came back and wrote nine plus one on the chalkboard that was in our kitchen and that sort of stayed with it will stay with you now fee because you got the tattoo of it. I really. Yeah. But we had my son's wedding, getting up one year and a half ago. And that was the first real test of nine plus one and it was just the most wonderful complete day. And plus one manner if you like and it's okay you can have wonderful complete happy experiences you have the right to that you deserve that so, you know, births and weddings and everything you deserve to have them complete. They're just complete in a different way. And I think that's that sharing that sense of hope and optimism and positivity and happy sad. It can exist simultaneously it's not one or the other. So, and that wedding was happy sad, a lot of things. Most definitely. You're going to say something before Phoebe. It was just going on to back to schools and teachers and I think it would just be to remember that we haven't just lost a person you don't just lose a person there is a whole lot of traditions and a life. A place at the dinner table that has just gone and I think if people can start to connect with that rather than just thinking oh you know so and so lost their mom today. If you can connect with that actually I was going home then to one person less at the dinner table and one person less at Christmas and your birthday less that we would celebrate that year. If you can connect to all those things that we celebrate as humans, then you can start to feel it like in your heart and want to help that person and want to do what you can rather than just thinking I don't really know what to say so I'll just leave it I'm sure should be fine and be getting support from anywhere else because if everyone thinks that you're supporting that person no one will be because you will be thinking the same thing. It sounds a little bit as well like people didn't say or do the right things just because they were so worried they would get it wrong and that maybe just messy and clumsy and awkward is better. You can't get it wrong there is no wrong. One of your cards Phoebe I'm sorry your mum died. I was dead love yeah love Amy or whoever it was and yeah and that was it you know it's that was something it was still something. I look at it now and I just think that's just madness isn't it just sorry your mum died and it's just a little child's drawing. And if anything it's you need to catch yourself laughing and then kind of catch yourself with that rock in your throat because it's sad it's so young. But it was blunt and to the point and they didn't get it wrong they tried and that meant more. Yeah. Than nothing. Yeah. And I think sometimes actually just saying it. Yeah, I think it is really important isn't it I think sometimes we dance around it and there's, you know, in the English language I talk a lot about how we should talk to children with special needs about death. And I often find myself thinking more why don't we all talk about it this way because actually we say well you can't use all the euthanisms you just got to talk about it really bluntly and simply. And actually if we all have much more simple conversations about this yes it might feel a bit clumsy and awkward but at least we'd all be on the same page wouldn't we. Yeah, that you know what I was thinking at the other day I work in a nursery in the cemetery. And, and I catch myself so many times because when we're walking through the cemetery obviously they sometimes go across stones and things and I catch myself going to say something but I know that my co workers wouldn't feel comfortable. Because it's just part of our society but part of me thinks why shouldn't we anyone any of them could could lose someone tomorrow. Why do we dance around it we just need to help bring it up from when they're young so they can understand it. Maybe that's where you know the statistics come from maybe the people that are going down that route when they've lost someone is because they just don't understand it from a young age but maybe if we tried to help them. It would be a lot less confusing. I think there were cultural aspects to it as well I mean different cultures responding in different ways I was. Everything always happens for a reason I was just happened to be out earlier and then on BBC World Service was a half hour program all about. Why do we grieve what is the, what is the genetic evolutionary reason for it and it was some guy in Australia lost his cat and he was like I don't even like cats but I was in this so much pain for weeks and I'm a Australian man I was lost a cat I couldn't talk about it was very private thing but it was just he wrote to the BBC to this program. It was just crowd science to say can can you ask the experts why this happens and they were just pointing out the evolutionary nature of it that it that we, you know in our past as human beings we needed to connect we needed to bond and if you lost somebody, because they went in a different direction as you're walking over the mountains or through the forest. You wanted to be able to remember them to be able to get them back. Totally ridiculous thing of going through so much pain that that that can't it's not moving the person back so why does it exist but actually it's, it's because we bond it's because we, it's because we love and this is how the program ended, you know this lady was saying I was with my husband for 50 years, my pain that I feel at his death is awful and terrible, and is a result of 50 years worth of love. And that's that's how it works and there's a really corny Dolly Parton thing over Christmas but she talks about grief is love with nowhere to go. And it just, yeah, that works. That makes sense. You know, if you didn't love you wouldn't grieve. So, if the choice is no love and no grief back to the roller coaster and all the tea cups, you know you go go for the love and the pain that comes with it. If that's what needs to happen. Yeah. You said earlier that you would talk a little bit about the Winston's wish research in. Yeah. And so we, the original book the little book of bereavement we royalties went to a local hospice that had run a Nicky's way is that Nicky's way is that what it's called. It's like a children's bereavement support group so we sort of for the first few years we supported them. And I got got involved with Winston's wish you're probably one of the if not the leading children's bereavement charities, and I do recommend checking out their their resource and also their phone line, whether you're a child or a parent or a or a teacher or any adult working with children if you got got a child facing grief, reach out to them they have so much good stuff. So we sort of started sort of doing a little bit of work with them and Fergus Crowe their CEO is in the forward for the new book, and all royalties from the new version of what we're going to Winston's wish now and we did a sort of a short launch video with them with Phoebe bits just before code was all sort of kicking off. So they had commissioned some research from Cambridge University because they were aware that when they went to look at what is the research on helping children with grieving that there wasn't any, or what there was was quite old. So they commissioned Cambridge University to do this report which is now fully available and I can send the link through to you who keeps so that you've got it you can add to the, or people just put Winston's wish Cambridge, you know grief research and they'll find it. It pretty much showed the sorts of things that we were had experienced empirically but it also picked up from other little bits little snippets of the research that it's, it's different things for different people and there's so much of it is, you know, how do you how do you help the child Well, it depends. It depends on the circumstances of the child's life beforehand. Was the child living in poverty has an implication on how the child is best aborted was a child living in chaos was the child going through a bit like we were with mental health issues beforehand. And then the circumstances of the death was it an accident, was it sudden, or was it a long term or even a short term meeting to a middle nest that the way you knew something was going to happen was a suicide. But when it is suicide that has implications for the impact that it will end up going forward on the children on the rest of the family. So it, and then there are the cultural aspects to it as well as I didn't teach you too much on culture. There are other areas in the book where we look at some of the cultural aspects in the research on on grieving and loss. It did show that they were that it's exactly what Phoebe said that you can't have a framework, you have to know how I was going to say this that you have to know the child and sympathy is easy. If somebody's in front of you crying it's easy to say they're there you don't walk away nobody walks away from a crying child, empathy. I've always thought his best definition is it's sympathy with imagination. You have to imagine what that person is going through and then act accordingly. So you know, I wonder what they that child might be going home to at night at tea time tonight on this Tuesday night and in the member or whatever. So, so what it takes is the empathy to be able to put yourself in that child's shoes before during and after and then think that child might need some help and then the bravery to have those sorts of conversations. And also to know that it's that it could be part of your job it's an interesting one because you know based on some of the stuff that's been going on on Twitter recently. For every five schools that are saying yeah we need to take mental health of our children seriously and we have a responsibility we'll do everything we can there's there's one or two that are just saying that's not our responsibility we're an academic school we don't do. We're quoting here from a school we've had dealings with recently. We don't do that well being nonsense. And I mentioned that on Twitch and I called all sorts of few Rory. I think I got the tone wrong on that and then because that school then had a what they called an unexplained suicide. But you could clearly say that some people it was like well you blame your school and I'm not blaming school I'm just saying schools. We're there we're in low co parent is we can do something it might not be in your job description it might not be in your training. It might not be what offset are looking for it might not get you to the top of the league table. But surely we have some sort of ethical moral and provincial responsibility if we can do something that we do that thing. Whatever that thing might be and I think that's that's that's the bit and you can walk away you can cross the road you can say well or send a bunch of flowers and move on. But if you believe that your job involves an element of well being which involves element of empathy and understanding and connection, then then do your job. And we're also there was research that shows when you get well being right their academic results go up anyway so I mean you know it's a double win anyway don't worry about the exam results by focusing on the well being. And going back to that idea on connection takes us in a beautiful radio to style link to cookie care baby so it'd be nice to kind of as we're getting towards the end of our time just hearing a bit about where you are and what you're doing now and just tell us a bit about what cookie care is and what you're hoping to achieve with it and what what that looks like. So, it was originally inspired by by of course the loss. And when we lost mum, there was absolutely nothing there was nothing around there still is nothing until cookie care really. That just gives a child what they need most and it is genuinely just a big cuddle. That is what's really kind of inspired cookie care. And also taking it into schools over the next year hopefully if covered decides to calm down and taking it into schools and you know setting up cookie corners where children can have a safe space to leave, leave the classroom just 10 minutes I'd much rather than 10 minutes an option to leave, just to recollect my thoughts have that awful puddle moment and then go back than have wanted to leave for the whole day and just go home and have a puddle day rather than a puddle moment. And so that was kind of where the inspiration of cookie care came from and then with COVID and everything. Now everyone needs a cuddle. Because it is like bereaved in some sense we've lost, you know a year of our lives with not been able to see family. We've lost, you know, our own routines that we used to have. So it's all about being able to kind of send a cuddle to the people that you miss most. So, currently I've got a bereavement hamper box for a child, someone that's bereaved, which is kind of bought by the parent or the care give of the guardian, and you can work through this with the child so you've got Winston's wish resources we've got memory jar that you can have so you can fill lovely memories of the love one and hold on to them which I wish I had done. Really because you can have as many memories as you can try and hold on to and then when it's 13 years later it's kind of more pictures really that you remember. So you've got a gravity blanket in there and then lots of other little comforting bits, and then the other boxes for bereaved adults due to COVID and the more recent one is just a big cuddle in a box that you can send to someone you love. So that's, that's mainly it really just supporting those who have lost and supporting those who need, who need it most really. A box. Pardon. Explain a cuddle in a box. I've got a very weird thing in my head of you know, a box being delivered and you jumping out and almost. Yeah, well that's the aim. But so the main part of the cuddle and the whole couch comes from for me the weighted gravity blanket. So just having that time to just spend with yourself have this lovely gravity blanket have the calming balm, have the hot water bottle. Just take time for yourself and have a moment cuddle yourself. So in COVID times we haven't been able to cuddle anyone else. So let's just learn to cuddle ourselves. So that's where the cuddle in the box kind of comes from and, and yeah I can't go around and give every bereaved child, adult or someone struggling during this time a big cuddle or I wish I could because I do love a cuddle and it's not. We're not able to at the minute because of COVID but that's that's where it comes from really. And there's a sad lamp in there and then there's a frame for photos and you're going to deal with a local company where there's a mug with hot chocolate and chocolate. Yeah, folks and bombs and multi sensory. The whole thing, the whole thing so we launched it a few weeks ago which was just one of those moments where I just thought this is not going to happen it's just silly idea silly me and then we got an order of 100 boxes in the first 24 hours. And I love my lovely, a lovely care company that want to look after their carers who have been looking after people during COVID. So it proves that I'm doing something right and I want to put my pain from losing my mind to something. And it, it gives me enough distance that I can help people that have gone through similar, but not have to relive it every day because I think at one point I thought that's it I want to be you know, social worker agreement specialist and I want to do what I can, in a way that still allows me to live and not relive that loss every day. That's incredibly sensible. Thank you. Really proud of Arion. Yeah, you have no idea. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, no it's an amazing thing and she's, I mean she went to Prince's Trust, some of the support for that and but so much of it is just she's just going back you know she's I'm an entrepreneur I've said about in company she could have turned to me for lots of stuff and she hasn't she's done it her own her own thing in her own way and it's just it looks incredible and I'm incredibly proud and the idea that you can get a booking of 100 within 24 hours and you said there's another care company that's looking for 200 and you'll need a warehouse I took photos or she sent photos surrounded in her flat by all these gravity blankets and doing soap and all sorts of things and I sent her a picture of Anita Roddick and all black and white room from the whenever that was ended the 60s early 70s of her in her first store, saying that people start in the body shop people, you know, there will be everybody starts in this way you start with a pile of stuff in a bit of space and you go on from there and it's, it's done with such heart as well that when you describe you envisage Phoebe leaping out and giving somebody a cuddle. That's exactly what it is. Almost exactly what it is. What a perfect idea as well though because actually I it is hard to know what to do and what to say when someone dies and actually being it's not. It's not the end of the conversation is it sending something like that but it's a very, very good way of making a decent start isn't it. Yeah, it would show yeah it would show that you care and give you a starting point for some of those conversations. Definitely. Well we'll link through to that in their show notes as well so that people can can can have a look and. Oh yeah that'd be lovely. What a wonderful, wonderful way to turn such a very difficult thing into something really positive and hoping that it makes things feel a little bit different for some people. Oh yeah me too. What I warned you at the beginning I'd ask you at the end for a final thoughts and what what thought would you maybe to start with you Phoebe what thought would you like to leave people with as we come to a close. Um, I've got two thoughts that have been going on. The first one is if you are if you are dealing with someone who was just lost someone that they love. If you can be there there is no wrong. Just be there talk encourage them to talk because I think talking has been one of the biggest healers, even if they don't want to it, it helps. And more importantly, listen, you don't always have to come back with your own story just be be the ears let us run and just explode and have a cry and just listen. I think the other thing is if you are the one that's bereaved and you're struggling is there is so much life after loss and and I hope that as someone who lost someone at nine with all the statistics that say I shouldn't shouldn't be here. I have so much life left to live at this moment and I feel it more than ever now, especially with where I'm kind of channeling all this loss into. Yeah, there is just so much life after death and loss and just know that you, you can do it you'll be okay. And Ian what would you like to do for this. It's hard to, hard to compete with Phoebe on that. I think it's, it's the ongoing nature of it. So Phoebe was nine and you said earlier pookie that you know in many ways she was like ideally placed to experience it fully. And she did as a nine year old. But then the difference when a nine year old and a 13 year old experiencing grief is different is is is more extreme difference than a 18 year old and a 25 year old for example so. So the way that I've always defined it or described it is it's a bit like Phoebe sort of leaving the coast, and as she goes sailing further into the sea looking back the land is getting bigger. She's got more of the picture, which means she's got more of the questions, and is experiencing it each year almost in a different way, and, and, and equally hard each time. It wasn't like coming to terms with one thing that then no fades or changes over time it was every year it was slightly different because she saw more of the landscape and had more of the questions about why was it like that and why is it like that and why people doing this so. There's that sense of ongoing change and pain, and then from my perspective as the father especially because then I mean if we talk about being in 16 different schools, it was because we traveled it wasn't because she get getting kicked out. Honestly, we have to put that there, because we sort of we traveled a bit within England before, before as he died and then when I remarried and then we sort of traveled and went around the world that was why all these changes. In schools. Yeah they did they didn't, they didn't always grasp that they were taking this on board even though we were very open about it. I remember having a conversation quite early on more of an argument really in Hong Kong saying, you know Phoebe chooses to be happy. She chooses today I could be sad but I'm not going to I'm going to choose to be happy and I think that's incredible. And I wanted them to know that that's because she chose to be happy doesn't mean to say, we didn't need the care and the support and the understanding, because it's really hard. It's really hard because on a day she choose to be happy at night she's crying her eyes out. And I need help with that and she needs help with that so it's that it's that ongoing awareness of what children are going through and what their families are going through and the role that schools can play just just it can be an email it can be a sentence can be a smile can be a hug. When that's allowed it's just little things that show connection is that that word again.