 As we started doing our own products in chemical fashions, we realized the marketing aspect is important. You know it's not to say that what a waste of time and money but you know there is that it needs that finesse to really bridge the message together and we'll get into this I'm sure more later but we realize now that customers are more and more aware, they're a lot smarter than a lot of industries give them credit for and so with that it's been really helping us with both content and products. We should also add that you asked how we got that started, we didn't really have a clue as to what we were doing. This is Started to Storefront. Today's guests are Gloria Lu and Victoria Fu, co-founders of Chemist Confessions, the skincare brand that started as an attempt to break down the overly complicated and purposefully confusing world of beauty products. They were industry insiders working at L'Oreal and they were fed up with the lack of transparency and how the big brands marketed to consumers. Since they're both actually chemists, hence the name, when they tackled misconceptions and broke down the basics of healthy skincare, people listened. They were able to amass a passionate and loyal fanbase before eventually expanding into their own line of skincare products. So listen in as we cover everything from what would happen if you only applied sunscreen to one half of your face consistently over 10 years, the three most basic and essential skincare products, and in accordance with one of their most popular hashtags, we decode that ingredient list. Now, back to the episode. All right, welcome to the podcast. On today's show we have Chemist Confessions. Thanks for coming on. Hi, how are you? Thanks for having us. Tell us a little bit about what your company does. What do we do? Well first off, I'm Victoria. And I'm Gloria. Our first names and last names, Rhyme, it's absurd. I know this one. Sound like Tweedledee and Tweedledum. People assume it's, these are fake names, but no, it's all my life. Real names. So, I have Victoria Fu. Gloria Lu. Yeah, I know, I know. Do you guys have nicknames? Do you guys have nicknames for each other? Oh, no, really. Chemist A, chemist B. Yeah, so how we got started? Well, first some backstory. We met working for the same big beauty conglomerate. Yeah, can we share? Can we share who that is? L'Oreal. That we shared. Friends with Chemoreal. Yeah, and we were cubicle neighbors. And yeah, just friends first, you'll see we share the same very like awful quirky humor. And that's kind of... Sometimes not very well received. And that's like how, you know, we started a friendship and then through that timing just so happened that we ended up leaving the company at the same time. And neither of us really had a plan at the time. And I know like well, since we were cubicle buddies, we complained to each other a lot. What were you guys doing at L'Oreal? Yeah, we're both skincare formulators. Which means what? So to someone like me. To someone like me who knows nothing. What does that mean? What are you guys working on? We always say behind every product you see on the shelf, there is a chemist like us in the little hole in the lab, just mixing everything together, making sure it's stable, making sure marketing can at least legally make the claims that they want to make. Interesting. And make sure it's safe for everyone. And they also oversee quality. So it's not just about the formula in the bottle, it's making sure it's happy in the packaging. It can actually last its entire shelf life in stores and yeah, holds up over time and safety and efficacy as well. Fun story for Diego. Victoria specializing anti-aging actors and I worked on... Why is that a fun story for me? Well, I'm getting to the fun part. Fun story for everyone in general. Diego feels all about it. I think people don't realize how much stability issues just, something as plain as a serum or a lotion can be. We've had many like explosions. There are things that one goes from white to gray to brown to black. Just because of... Pooh brown. Pooh brown. We made liquid poo before and that's kind of a chemist job to make sure it doesn't happen. Yeah. So when you guys were leaving was one of the things that you didn't agree with some of the business practices or were you guys... What made you really want to say, I can't take this anymore? I mean, good question. I think we try to emphasize the chemist portion and it's because when you think of a chemist they're kind of like that gremlin in the basement that's like toiling away producing formulas. So and we also realize that you know it's frustrating because at the end of the day you're just like with all the marketing noise out there you're just kind of missing all the work behind the scenes and knowing that and you know being a simple chemist where you're not able to like really be the master of the formulas. A lot of these have already been kind of drafted up by marketing following trends, looking at what... They're telling you they need this. Our hot topics. Right. Exactly. Yeah. So with that I think both of us yeah we're kind of feeling the same way it's like I probably could do more or I don't really know how I feel about my current position and yeah maybe ultimately I think I was trying to straight away from the industry get more until like actual like ingredients and molecules not just for skincare it could be for food industry anything like that and Gloria I think I think I was just trying to leave the big company at the time I wasn't sure if I wanted to be a chemist in a long run but I knew I wanted more exposure L'Oreal was so big as a chemist that that's what you do that's your role right you're captain in the hole I was trying to go to a much smaller company so even as a chemist you have more saying other departments right yeah I'm kind of surprised that marketing dictated what you guys would formulate and not the other way around like what's going to be good for you so that makes sense to me but yeah yeah I mean that ultimately it's what sells and I'll be completely honest when we we had that feeling leaving but as we started doing our own products and chemist go fashions we realized the marketing aspect it's important is important you know it's not to you know say that what a waste of time and money but you know there is that it needs that finesse to really bridge the message together and we'll get into this I'm sure more later but we realize now that customers are more and more aware they're a lot smarter than a lot of industries give them credit for and so with that it's been really helping us with both content and products so yeah what was one of the things that so you guys just make the decision to want to create some content what was the first thing that you wanted to either debunk or just share so I think in the beginning just us industry insiders we always have friends and family come to us and ask us questions and we realize how lost people are in this industry so in the beginning it was one to vent frustration a little bit and say hey guys like chemists exist and this is what we do and two I think our first series was actually on sunscreen because when we started content it was right around summertime so it was just very little things that maybe you don't think about like double check the expiration day why is broad spectrum really important and why do us sunscreens suck so so on that topic on why us versus everywhere else I mean I found I've had so many problems with my skin that I look for things that are not made in the US because I wish the US had more regulations that's a great great point and oftentimes the sunscreens is the biggest biggest category for that simply because yeah the FDA is incredibly behind you know we actually just wrote a post on how the world not the US can use a lot more filters than we can and the last time this really important sunscreen new age sunscreen filter was approved like the pussycat dolls was still releasing top hits so like it's a long time it's been like 15-20 years tell people where they can find the the blog post you just mentioned from your website oh it's on instagram yeah it's on our instagram and we should also add that you asked how we got that started we didn't really have a clue as to what we were doing sure but you wanted to educate you wanted to inform right yeah we also didn't want to write really really lengthy blog essays because we knew that there was such a barrier with explaining the science behind it and a lot of people are just like looking for quick answers right so with that we were like okay maybe instagram is the better format for like short blurbs we say short but nowadays you'll see that but I think that's okay like I know when it comes to food products even people are they seem more willing to write a longer caption on instagram to know like there's no gums in my almond milk or something we realize our followers are super informed and they want that content that level of detail and there are times where we write something and I'm like damn that's really long I don't know if they would read that and then someone will point out a typo I had in the middle of it I was like oh my god you read the whole thing so happy I love it and I've seen some of your posts where you know you debunk like the ingredients list and go through it and it's like well if your skincare has 45 things in the ingredients list I do want to know what all those things are and you know I don't want anyone to skip it I want to know every single thing and why it's there and if it's helpful or if it's not helpful or damaging is it like food where it should just be four or five ingredients oh not necessarily yeah but we all say 45 ingredients it's too much yeah yeah okay there is purpose a lot of times we'll get questions where they're like oh this looks like it's mainly water this looks like there's only one actual beneficial ingredient but what about all the other ones but people forget that in order for it to hold up in quality safety make sure you're not growing any mold like there's they're still important you know and they may sound slightly foreign but it's not necessarily something to be afraid of and there's always a trend of going chemical-free we really don't like that going toxin-free chemical-free but at the end of the day you have to remember that even water is considered a chemical so you know it's important to know that the dosage makes a poison so it ultimately comes down to that and I will say the cutoff or a too long formula is something like you'll see packaging you'll see the ingredient list and it runs over to the other side oh yeah that's usually one something necessarily well yeah yeah what else besides sunscreen that you guys first start your content on? yeah I actually uh I should also add that so I never had an Instagram before oh yeah oh wow and Gloria only had an Instagram for her cat for my cat and so we were basing our expertise on running an Instagram how many followers did your cat around have? I will have you know that my cat has 4,000 followers wow and that was a big day when kevin's confessions passed my cat's Instagram and kevin's confessions now has over 100,000 followers yeah the cat's been left in the dust that's funny it goes to show you the bigger industry I guess people are really concerned with beauty yeah yeah or skincare I guess in general it's just a giant also a really giant social media industry too like from this social media aspect yeah I just think of kairi or sorry what's her name? kairi the Kardashian kairi kairi no in her skin I just think about so kairi has this billboard on sunset like right over here oh and she it's pretty prominent and it's I don't know how long they have the like contract on it but it it feels like forever it's just a revolving image of mostly her and then there's either like a lipstick or a balm or whatever the product of the of the month is and I'm like okay is this is this a good product how do we know her stuff sells out within like minutes of it going live yeah so it's like maybe it's just the megaphone that works I have no idea as an outsider I have no idea and we know that celebrities are it's a great entry for them there's always a beautiful people you know they yeah I think there's I think this year alone Lady Gaga has her own eyeliner like everyone has that products and there was I feel like they always feel like beauty is the long hanging fruit yeah and they just want to get a quick exposure on it yeah exactly yeah like even I think recently the thing that shocked me the most is Deandre Hopkins is now like a face of you know a hippie like skin care line and so even then that's it's just shocking how inviting skin care is now whereas before it just felt like your mom's cream like the Nivea Tin is your skin care I don't need to have as many options as you do today I just love that it's part of your mission to simplify and that we don't need these like insanely long regiments I mean we're all very busy and for me you know I'm sort of intimidated I'm not like really a girly girl and I look at these you know like lengthy routines and I'm like I can't follow that there's no way so to have like a few really good quality products that work together that are easy to follow and easy to like implement that to me is like much better than how pretty the packaging is and that's actually one of the biggest things we preach on Instagram is it's nice if you're someone who's regimented who want to follow a 10 step routine but it boils down to consistency and we get it right it's like the window shopping effect you see that pretty packaging we're guilty of it too but at the end of the day you should know what your core essential products are and using just just using sunscreen every day will go a lot further than having a 10 step routine that you maybe remember to use every other other day you know and also we ourselves are very lazy you would be considered incredibly lazy because you mean the both of you yeah oh yeah like really you know we're always on the go we have to travel like exhausted there's only so many things you want to put on your face by the end of the night that like it almost I would feel like an imposter telling people to use 10 layers sometimes we get people who ask us for well we get a lot of people who ask us for routine help and sometimes they're so regimented and they they'll give us a long history of what they use and it's like 15 steps and we're like every night that's something I try to do with let's say real estate development from the outside can look really complicated I try to boil it down using either metaphors or analogies to like these really simple steps yeah and so when I think about skincare when you guys are saying you don't need a 15 step regimen what do people need is it a three to four step regimen what would you yeah so we actually going back to your original question about our content we actually break down the entire industry into four major segments because it feels like one of the biggest source of confusion is marketing always develop new product names right you have essence CRM ampules Diego's giving me a very blank look and after a while we get questions that's like oh like do I need an essence and a toner and then an ampule but then from a chemist perspective they may not be very different in composition so the way we divvy up the industry is into just cleanse moisturize sun protect and those are your three basics okay if you do nothing else moisturize sun protection okay yeah and then treatments is definitely the one that can target you know these long-term skin concerns wrinkles pigmentation but at the end of the day if all you have time for is you know the basics then we would just say the core three right and then yeah what is a cleanser what is like a good cleanser need to have in it well that's a great question so you definitely shouldn't pay a lot for it you shouldn't pay a lot for it no that's the problem in makeup so I'm an outsider to Natalia's skin regimen but there are some things upstairs that cost five dollars and there are some things that cost like 200 and I'm like I don't understand it is very frustrating too because you know as someone who I just want to fix the problems and have like a long-term sustainable solution going forward and you know I'll go to like I'll get facials down or like chemical peels or all these things and these people tell me okay you just need a few like really high quality products and that's it and I'm like cool and I'm willing to spend because I want to figure it out right but I also want to know like specifically for my skin type you know which are going to be the most effective things if it's a four dollar cleanser I'm totally good with that too I just right there's just so much noise in the industry exactly yeah and that's why like you know we always tell people if you want to save somewhere cleanser is probably one of those things because it's simply for the function of cleaning do any big names make a good cleanser yeah actually cleanser from a chemist perspective is not the easiest thing to formulate and a lot of bigger companies have pretty good cleansing formulas I want to say one thing that as a if you're trying to get more serious about skincare something you should consider replacing as soap based cleansers because they're usually a little bit too stripping especially you have dry and sensitive skin and that actually can cause a lot of irritation in the long run not saying it's bad for all skin type because like soap's been around forever but just saying in something that's worth upgrading yeah agree what's a good range of dollars people should spend on a cleanser that you guys would say oh anywhere between five and 25 25 nothing I don't think I've seen cleanser that cause like a hundred twenty dollars like don't do that it's not like this is still mermaid here it's just marketing it's just marketing yeah and yeah there also seems to be this trend of like custom skincare how do you feel about that I've seen a few of them I absolutely like take this quiz and we'll like develop this specific thing for you yeah so I would say to the the good side of it would be all of the prescription ones just because especially with COVID right now you're not really able to see a derm so if you can get prescription Trentanoan through curology apostrophe and what is it muesli there's like we think those are great the ones that are you fill out a form and they customize for you they charge you 200 bucks I will definitely say I am not in love with that idea simply because the formula itself has to be relatively rudimentary for them to customize those actives in you're very limited to the actives you can use to kind of like make that sustainable business model let's just say that and a lot of times like it comes down to the ideal customization is attractive and I think many brands have their own take on it but when you put in practice it's very and this is part of philosophy of how we develop our products is when you do those projects of course like you want people to give you a set of data points and you pump all form and that matches that but a lot of times you realize that with skin it's hard to do that right because self-perception is very different amongst different individuals if someone fills out a survey that says oh my skin is dry and I'm in my early 30s versus someone that says I'm 40 and my skin is ish dry like are those two different from a product perspective right and it just a human condition messes us up more on their own right yeah and the suggestion that that's a good point the customized concoction ends up not being very meaningful in a real sense I always wonder when you fill those things out did they just have two or three standards that they just tell you yeah this is made for you but they really just have three standards that oily you know combination and dry yeah probably yeah that's what I thought too yeah I look at it like an algorithm it's like you can't solve for every case so you have to bucket each use case right as best as possible but there's inherent error right and every formula needs to be tested if they're a responsible company or be tested for at least a few months for stability for shelf life for compatibility with the packaging too so it's just not possible to have a hundred of those on deck ready to go to be customized so and I think the other big category where customization doesn't work is those with sensitive skin again how someone perceives their skin is sensitive they could be like oh but it's really delicate doesn't necessarily mean that you have an allergy or you really are sensitive is just you're trying to be as gentle as good to it as possible and so it's really hard to measure that and when you do I guess try to take such a conservative approach you end up missing out on good ingredients that really could help you and so that's why these quizzes they just don't really capture that that makes sense I have another skincare related industry question before we I think switch back over to entrepreneur so you know companies like the ordinary you know and Desiam right have popped up with these they're basically stripping everything out that's unnecessary and a lot of there's been a lot of feedback I feel like from users that maybe they don't hold up as well compared to like the name brands of retinol and stuff like that how do you feel about those kinds of brands I think I kind of like the mission and I think it resonates with your mission as well yeah it depends on the formula I think it's great that they're making these ingredient names more recognizable right like just while we were starting at L'Oreal it's unthinkable to market with lactic acid or resveratrol because most consumers are like where's who you know and now like because of what they're doing people are more comfortable with these names so I think it's great but quality of their formulation can range far and wide in between so not everything's a winner why is that why do you think that is quality control the thing that I guess they essentially do is they sell ingredients they don't actually sell treatments or they sell formulas moisturizers and so so it's a shelf life issue it's not necessarily that it's that I think they're not stable we would consider them side phases so it's solving it's too simple so what Victor means we actually wrote a post on Instagram recently too they have this product of resveratrol and they have a 3% which is very high and there are only two ingredients in the formula it's just propane diol which is a solvent and resveratrol but that means this formula is 87 propane diol which in most regular formulas it will be in it at 5% 10% max so that level of solvent can actually be very irritating it's too simple right and so it's good in that you know I think so it's directionally correct as I would say yes what they're trying to achieve is directionally correct but the application of achieving that is far more difficult exactly the ordinary did a great job of showing that you don't have to pay a lot to get good skin care but the other side of that is when you do make it so simple you do open up to other problems like irritation the other issue we get a lot with questions about the ordinary is just sheer lack of education you know they were the forefront of introducing all these ingredients but now users are like I don't know what to use but I feel like I can afford 10 different serums I gotta use them all right but then it's not how it works you know it's just your skin can only handle so much and you know we'll often hear from people about like yeah I see them take away six of the ordinary serums I know they're gonna come back and return four of them yeah they realize it's just too much and so I feel like you should have like a television show where it's like a Mary condo type of thing yeah I was just thinking you just where to go through like literally we should open up all of Natalia's goods to you and I would just love to see what happens I would just I don't know I think you could probably boil it down to if you need like four of these 20 things and if you don't know how to use niacinamide don't maybe don't use it I would love to take the same approach of duh do you love this can go in the ring in a spark drill like like well sometimes I don't know that's great that's true because if you're having like a really good let's say like makeup day but you've applied something that maybe you shouldn't be wearing there's gonna be some nostalgia associated with that product that we imagine right and then you're just hooked forever so we mentioned cleansing what was the second one and then there was sunscreen sunscreen moisturize okay I'm just trying to break this down because I don't have any idea when it comes to cleansing is it cleansing twice a day morning and night oh you don't have to no just once a day once a day if you can cover once a day then you're golden any time of the day whether it's night time night yeah night would be best okay good I shower at night that's when I climb yes think about like daily grime accumulation of sweat all that it's best to at least before you go to bed yeah before bed okay yeah moisturizer is the tough one for me and then when do you moisturize the mornings we'll come in morning and night okay when I moisturize the moisturizer I use has a SPF it's 30 SPF also it's got a sunblock and a moisturizer that'll be just for a day right is that good or should we not blend anything oh no that's great actually okay especially for those who are like finicky with sunscreen oily skin I'm the same gets really oily wearing moisturizer right and do but it smells delicious and it happens to have an SPF yeah I know that's great I'm doing what I need to do and with SPF we just want to say that our go-to recommendation is you know I forget about that's a one category we'll say forget about the chemist recommendation forget about what anyone says if you enjoy using it and you're willing to use it every day like if it smells delicious that's that's it that's a big struggle with sunscreen is a lot people don't have good sunscreen habits or they don't like it so they don't wear it every day so yeah I finally think I found one that that works and I want to show you I want to get your opinion on it that's okay yeah of course just to check I use a so we actually had a company on the podcast called a system and they were making essentially products and I have no idea if this works or not but basically it's you start your morning off with supplements they call that number one it's just every vitamin you've ever wanted or needed allegedly but I have no idea I'm just putting this on it's testing no way and then number two is the actually there's a cleanser also which they recommend twice a day but only you at night when I shower and then in the morning I put on the moisturizer with the SPF and then at night they have a overnight cream which is basically a moisturizer yeah it is and I just put that and that's it that's all that's I feel like I nailed it okay they nailed it yeah there you go all me says come the thing is like the problem is this what do you call winning right so if I start a business I would imagine the revenue the views the users the adoption I can view as like this is working when it comes to putting things on your fit like if I subscribe to a diet I would say okay is my body fat going down what is my BMI is my weight going down do I feel good there's clear indicators of success in this world of putting things on my face there isn't well that's because you're blessed with it I know for me it's lack of sun damage controlling the acne yes not having oily scalds that was like on rosacea can be like all these things that I would this are measurements but if I started a new program today right like a new diet let's say it would it wouldn't I would still have to maybe take two weeks right for things to really start to set in yes okay of consistency yes skincare still needs time to work I would say in your case you will know if it works probably 10 years down the road wow so that's a terrifying thought because of you know because of developing re-goals you know are you developing sun spots it's stuff like that that is really what's going to end up just doesn't help though because that means I could be on the wrong path for 10 years I know in the next day if something isn't working so that's such a good point that you brought that up because when we first started like Victoria mentioned we're like yeah science everyone should subscribe to it and then when we do more as we go down into this rabbit hole we realize like okay we understand why skincare is a little gets a little culty because it is a belief system right you have to trust it's a religion it's a software yeah you have to just believe that it works you blindly for 10 years so I mean there is certain areas of skincare where you see results faster right we say you still have to become system but you can see say lessening spots you can notice lessen your fine lines or just sunspots in 4 to 12 weeks that's usually how long a skincare clinical testing is but in terms of age prevention especially if you have pretty good starting a pretty good starting point like you Diego then that it gets a little religious but you just have believed that this is preventing aging yeah but you should do it either way yeah well no one are you really gonna do half your face in the name of science right I actually would I actually would I actually would you were just trials of himself all right call you back in 10 years I won't let us take measurements we'll start you on the clinical would it be night and day let's let's your face let's pretend we did that let's pretend we subscribe to this in 10 years time and I put nothing on one side and the system that I mentioned to you about on the other side would you know like would it be very clear you would I mean there's a very clear like very clear very clear like one side of you is dateable the other side not dead very clear the other side leprosy yeah tone deaf joke look like 100 years now people will listen to this and say oh can you believe it tell us the I don't think it's really a thing now either no no no there's a really famous study of a truck driver and he is driving on one side so that means in this while he's driving the sun only hits one side of his face and you can see very clearly the distinction of damage on one side versus the other so the sun causes a tremendous amount of damage the most damage it is biggest source of damage aside from aging I love this great that we're in so cal right I know I'm playing tennis later today I almost I always wear sunscreen very rarely do I wear a hat because I don't want to tie those but I might have to start doing stuff like that it's a great point and I was going to just add on that the science can only try to bring logic to all of this it doesn't tell the whole picture and will never tell the whole picture for every single individual just because skin is so personal it involves your lifestyle your stress your age you know your genetics everything and so with that like we always tell people if it's working for you you found something you like it doesn't matter what we say if you pay $150 and it works like great you know keep going there's no reason for you to abandon something that works and try to start over because you heard some celebrity you know is using some miracle treatment if it sparks joy deal it if it sparks joy this is a television show I'm telling you yeah I would love to see it if there was like a service you know if you guys offered a service that was like okay I'm like a weekly or bi- home consultations no like a check-in of like okay what's working what's not how should we you know like assuming somebody is accountable and they are going by routine that you prescribe you know that would be like and they can help you and be like a feedback loop I think that would be so helpful because I feel like you know what do you get these products anything new in skincare or makeup and you try them you're like left to your own devices and yeah you know if it doesn't work you're like on your own searching for the next thing is diet a big part of this yeah sugar is not great yeah sugar is not great avoid sugar oily foods yeah how about wine the anti the anti-oxidants I think it's great it's some red wine I'm not gonna eat on it you just you need enough of it to work there just saying that's what I tell myself okay yeah that's what we tell ourselves too so going back I mean I just I I so admire you guys because you starting this company like this is a big industry with like like you know well I'm not American regulations I guess but in most places like heavy regulation heavy approval process long trials I mean were you guys intimidated when you started started this like on your own after working for L'Oreal I think it's like ignorance is bliss in the beginning we're so cute like look we look at pictures of us when we first started and we're like there's this joy skin was great don't lie no stress no stress there's this don't lie look yeah we do always say if you want great skin don't start your own company I'm just saying yeah yeah I hear that yeah yeah I think as we did the content we were just doing content and then we kind of get gone to a point where the content became so it became a full-time job that we were like okay well we either need to get a job or or we need to figure out what to do with this and so we're kind of blown away by people like actually enjoying the content we really didn't think that people want to listen to like all the technical kind of jargon behind it oh we want to know like yeah so then with that we were like okay maybe we can try to capture that in these products and I will tell you being chemist we did not want to put like more stuff out there it couldn't just be like another miracle serum you know and it really for us to make it gratifying was that it could actually solve a problem or a need gap that wasn't there and I think that's kind of helped us kind of shape that's good how far along were you before you thought about making a product we were doing a content for about a year almost and then I imagine people were just saying hey make a product yeah yeah awesome and I'll be honest you know when I think as chemist we knew we you always wish you could be right make your own product right and so we definitely would talk back and forth of like what about this what will we do if we do it yeah so what did you do what was the first product you did so so we start out with moisturizers moisturizers not a cleanser a moisturizer okay yeah oh man our cleanser has a story no the cleanser is harder to formulate yeah well moisturizer well to your earlier question it was a lot easier because of our chemist background that we know what we'll be faster to do we know how to get little less money yeah less money we know all the testing we need to do right off the back we we probably could cut a good half a year from regular product development process just because we were in the know and down to the packaging type that will help preserve the product all that was really helpful we started with moisturizers because to your point cleansers and sunscreens are both really lengthy developing development time and sunscreens have actual regulation hurdles to go through so moisturizers the way we structure the line is we kind of divvy out the components of a moisturizer from the perspective of chemists what I mean is everything on the market is something moisturizing something that will make you dewy right but most people don't even think about their different components or moisturizer there's the water based ingredients that's just going to grab on to water and then there's the oils and waxes that's going to smooth and then seal that moisture in this was actually a big source of confusion in our community where people ask questions like oh what is our community oh our instagram skin care community yeah yeah yeah instagram consumers yeah so people ask like oh I bought this um kind of like acid serum why isn't it hydrating enough for me and they don't realize oh it's lacking the oil and wax as you seal it in it's an incomplete product type oh wow not that not that it's not a good product this is like the spray right the uh there's a like a dropper HCL or something oh the the spray mist is also another thing it's water based and yes but it doesn't seal it's same no exactly exactly exactly okay and I think the other thing was you know when you go to a drug store you are kind of at the whim of the brand right they could tell you it's normal it's combo it's dry but that's like in their metrics right but in comparison to other brands their threshold really what they did there's no there's no nothing has been calibrated so instead of having people like kind of just blindly guess guess and check yeah and go through that why not that's what it feels like right exactly why not just provide them these essential tools where you've isolated out these ingredients by function and they can just add it in when skin gets more dry or take it away when it gets more oily you know and with that they will be like essentially the master of their moisturizing needs yeah and going back to the point of customization and we kind of think about this line as personalization we are not we give you suggestions but what we want is create products where the customer feels comfortable experimenting on their own because skin's always going to change right no one's going to know what you're going through by a survey so if you if you get comfortable with the quality of a product and understand what really does for your skin then you should be the ideas you should be comfortable enough adjusting it to what you're going through so how do you do that so in my head as an entrepreneur I'm always like I just need to bucket like if I can take skincare or food or whatever and bucket people into three groups then I can create three products right to solve three problems right and then I can create lines right it's like vertical integration is that completely the wrong way to think about skincare so I'll I think and I won't get offended if it's true because I don't know I honestly have no idea no no no so I think and Gori I can also add on to this is we really struggled in the beginning with the moisturizer launch because it was so technical no one understood like what do you mean I can do this like and they still needed you to tell them exactly what to do you know and I get it it was just it's a very very different way of thinking about a very actually not very glamorous product you know moisturizers people think they're just like well it's okay it's the thing I'm supposed to put on but it's not the magical serum that's going to make me look like a million bucks you know so why should I put that effort in you know and so that's why the snail oil yeah snail music we get that question all the time is that a real thing yes it's a real thing wait wait wait it works no it's hiring no no yeah it's a real thing I know it does it it makes me less oily does it work it doesn't work it doesn't work oh debunk debunk it's okay it's not going to be anti-aging yeah and it's a water baby but I'm not using it for that yeah you're not using it for that no no what are you what are you solving for it's it's very hydrating to me I don't because I my skin is like I have the chemist in the room this is amazing feels good it's a water grabber so yeah it's a post-hydrate mm-hmm yeah so you can see me nice or me yeah it's not it's not a cure all but you should YouTube how they how they extract the how do they do that oh yeah tell us very fun yeah so there's a real snail yeah it's or a bunch of snails a million so you put in a blender I'm just gonna have it oh so it's a monsters ink story right so the old way is it sends a little electric current to it so the snail squeaks out and releases mucin but then they found out that if they put it in a very pleasurable sauna it releases more mucin so that like straight out monsters and it's a half-year snail yeah it's a half-year snail being a thong being a thong or humane yeah that's the only way to make it what are we talking about we're talking about snail saunas okay but get on board you guys are saying that there's really no practical application to it it sounds like I feel like you're guiding us on I know there's no great leading questions here just let me have my snail oil okay so we would consider like it's like a b-minus it sounds like it sounds like you're not proud of this student you're not really proud of this student but he's not failing she's not failing so yeah it's a c-plus I hope this type the title of this podcast is now going to be chemist confessions so snail and oil is a b-minus ingredient no definitely not so we would say that a lot of Asian skincare is notorious for using these like very eye-catching exotic ingredients and so for something like snail mucin we would say that it's kind of like a moisture a hydrator plus right you know it's shown to have certain like other beneficial molecules but at such low levels that it's kind of like a nice perk to what essentially is just a moisturizer so you could just use a moisturizer and be just as fine it sounds like what you're saying it sounds like you want a Marie Kondo her cabinet sounds like the problem is that there's so much information out there coming in all different directions yes that I don't want to just throw something out if it's like and yeah you said it's working right I like it that's a while there you go yeah then it does murder in the winter it's nice and moisturizer is one that you absolutely should based on how your skin's responding right that's not something you need to wait three months to really know yeah especially if you have dryer skin or even combo skin if it makes a difference and your skin's on right drag you will know so you guys had this suite of products and then what was it like like actually bringing it to market and going through the yeah so we mentioned that in the beginning it was like the education piece was really hard we were like oh it's better to have to let the customers like explore you know we created these little like experiments and we call them box of goodies yeah so it allows them to kind of trial and error you know and allow them to mix and match get the idea of like really honing in on like what's working but that's unfortunately when you make it you almost open the world too quickly right and they don't quite understand you know the capabilities of these products and so I feel like it really did take us almost a year to really hone in the story give lead by example you know talk about case scenarios to kind of help them realize like okay oily skin start here dry skin start here they still need like a starting point and then the funny thing is like well at the same time we're still keeping up with the content because we don't want to lose that community that we built and also we do feel like there is a need for that kind of objective voice so we also didn't use the platforms you just like all right guys it's all about us now and I'll promise how it's been and all the other bitches out there it's all about us now but so I would have told her it's not going on APC because a part of me is thinking you guys are kind of like the blockchain for these products where we're trying to arrive at the truth it's almost like the media right if we have blockchain and media there would be an absolute truth and we wouldn't get so we put it that way right through thank you probably for worries and to I know Victoria's point we started going to a few trade shows to kind of get our names out there and then we realized this is what we realized like holy crap really appreciate marketing because we're in there and when we're talking to people we can see that moment and they're like oh I get what you're about this or still this process awesome but then we're starting to realize that it takes us five minutes to get there it takes us eight ten minutes to describe the genius behind these products but really you need to get there faster I do so then you're saying with a nice packaging or some with the better marketing or more streamlined communications more like people have these pain points and they do want to something that we are really proud of is these very hyper transparent ingredient list but which people do want to know but then we're forgetting we're jumping too early we're forgetting to explain to them why do they care about our transparent ingredient list what is the one thing that's really going to strike a chord so they hear the rest of the five-minute story behind the product because one of our top seller aquafix is a hydrating water gel and we really put a lot of thought into well every product but that one has layers right it has high levels of soothers it has hydrators of different molecular weights and sizes but then if you don't hook them with something that they really care about they're not going to find out everything else that we thought about and put in the product their eyes blaze over is what we've had that many times yeah I wonder why that happens though it's it's a lot you know like it's think about it you try to pack in all the science when they're used to only hearing moisturizer right so and we've just unveiled level 40 you know there's 40 different levels of understanding I'm trying it's called Mr. Reliable East I don't know I like the packaging it's an all-in-one moisturizer yes I put it on my face sure and in 10 years magic happens so what am I looking for now it's not on my face am I do I want to feel a certain way am I applying this the right way I think for guys generally it's just I don't feel heavy or greasy do you feel love do you feel like your face has been crushed by angels all he knows is that the lotion he uses now his sister bought him at lush like 10 years ago that was an old one he hasn't gone back so uh products expire yeah I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know oh no I mean rebuying rebuying that's the same oh yeah so I guess this is the question and so then when it comes to marketing the brands what they've figured out is really how to apply or appeal to fear right or appeal to yes yes sorry I have no feels about that fear mongering yeah totally but that happens in every industry and it's the easiest way and so as a real estate developer if I tell you we're gonna build this amazing thing and it's gonna be so great for the community versus if I tell you I'm gonna give you 20 cents on the dollar every single year and your stock your 401k is giving you 10 one induces a ah I gotta get in the other one induces that urgency so cool Diego yeah these are these are really different yeah and so one almost feels unethical yes and one feels ethical and so how do you guys right because you're you're acknowledging and you see it you're at the trade show you can tell it takes you eight minutes versus two seconds so I think for me and then that hits it right on I'm sure Victoria has her feels about the tail so for me personally it's to be cheesy it's part of what got us here is believing in the message that's a cheesy side of it is it's hard for us to who are we if we just jump into that because it works because and then we're just contributing to the noise right so that's one side of it and the other side side of it is that blind believe that this more honest messaging that we can get on board with is ultimately going to be more sustainable because it's such a crowded industry every joe schmo down street wants their own skincare line right so the brands that's going to last versus the brand that sells you on the fear and then going to fizzle out and we see so many of those brands I probably started around thinking how we do already fizzle out oh wow okay and we want to believe that it's because our messaging is more honest that's going to work in the long run but then when it comes to being at a trade show there's a part of right how do you handle that because ultimately you need that to get into the market yeah and I think it's tough but I will say also it's probably because of our personalities that we are so analytical and we just pride ourselves in just trying to stick to the science of it the logic behind it that to kind of get to that level it's just like we would feel very ashamed you know to have to reach that and it doesn't make very good business sense we understand that and we understand like in the marketing that's why we were really challenged in the beginning because we were trying to have a very honest like content approach but then day I get to sleep at night I sleep well because I know we're trying to do good you know so will you say ethics lead to good skin is that what you're saying sure you sleep at night because you're following your ethics and so therefore part of your skin regimen is just being a good person oh yeah it's like wow okay we're selling this product people let me just get that down we're selling it cold you know I'm hating that life totally dang it that's the hard part I mean it is the hard part that's also the it's the scientist part at the core of what we do and science itself but you'll see that you know even in the science of a community not everyone agrees you know totally smoking with apparently there's enough studies out there to show that it won't cause anything but happiness except lung cancer no there's I mean but yeah but depending on who the study is funded by it's like what are we talking about also then by the time you're a dad who cares you're happy exactly so that's another thing about our content is the social media loves black and white they love to tout right and wrong and they love anger yes and at the end of the day like to get out of bed for a lot of people exactly and so it's not skincare at all you know a lot of it has not there's not enough funding to even do the testing to prove it you know there's a lot of lack of data all around so with that we try to just share okay this is there is a lack but this is what is out there we know and that's it it's up to you the reader to decide hey okay I think I'm on board with this or I'm not on board they're more than capable of making that decision for yourself instead of us telling you this is really bad you should cancel just to hear some form out of your letting people deduce from themselves but if you content wise sometimes it's hard because a lot of people comment it's like what are you saying is it good for me or not right like be more fair so does this give me cancer that's kind of how I look at it or I try to get as close to that as possible what I'm learning here is that there's actually it's a bigger space than what I originally thought it's not binary it's that there's a tremendous amount of people who can be right yeah space and there's also a function of does it feel good and that's a completely subjective thing so it's not science per se right we used to joke so part of our job or real is formula aesthetics is very important so there are times where when we're trying to like really feel down to nitty gritty it's stuff that consumers don't necessarily think about but it makes a difference it's a psychology thing right so then this chemist sometimes I'm so stupid I'll sit there about one cream is slightly creamier and we used to think it was so stupid when you're doing your own brand and you can dictate in direction and formulation at least I start to appreciate that sense a little bit more like it's like the little things you want you want your consumer to feel from the smell to the texture to the break there's a lot to it like outwardly it's like if you say it seems kind of stupid but it kind of matters the whole experience yeah yeah yeah it definitely dictates whether people use it again and buy it again so you have these four products right now ah so that that's the moisturizer one then we have a cleanser that was also its own beast to formulate and going back to our mission of getting the consumers get feel comfortable with kind of taking control of your routine these are they're multi-use they come in these tubes with a precise application tip what you can do is use it as a booster you can mix it with your stale mousse and cream or serum to to kind of get used to acids or you can use it as a wash-off mask so you don't disrupt your daily routine by adding the stuff you can just add it as a once a week treatment to get the same effect if you get peels in offices then this will help you upkeep with that result in between visits too so yeah I like the packaging there's high apples on it peel like flaky peel with that one you can and that would be a sign that it's a little too strong so that's why you know we kind of wanted this format so that you had the option of a gentle introduction to add to the moisturizer and then you can just bump it up for the you know direct wash-off mask we really wanted to make sure that people felt like they could no matter how complex or simple the routine was you had an easy way of incorporating it just really wanted to make it as inviting to all sorts of users as much as I love that so it's not going to throw off your entire everything I'm doing this is a once a week thing you guys recommend yeah as a wash-off mask yeah yeah so this is and we also try to be clever with the packaging and put all of that in here I love that how would you describe it to people listening you got I guess the packaging itself is the ingredient list or the in the instruction card instruction card okay and we'll try to keep things fun this cute bubble people I like this it's time for real results yeah what's the bubbles oh they're high-fiving are these water are these water molecules no they're just cartoons by the way all of our art is hand drawn by Victoria wow that's incredible my job is to like go Victoria world sport fine tune the design that's amazing very important I like it so as you guys think about scaling I don't even know so you guys obviously have a following so is it a function of just getting influencers on your Graham is it getting people you that align with the product that is a great color this has been a great question to you yeah it's been good it's been really good actually and I think so COVID has been good no just kidding that's okay okay this is just like traps that's okay to say it's like snail oil it's like snail oil yeah well people are sitting at home and thinking about self-care so I think most skincare companies are seeing a boost I don't know I think the education actually I think people are really leaning into education because they're bored and said that they're like oh maybe now I should get educated on everything we're right and we've seen that everyone that we've had on the podcast it's they haven't been able to sell so they've leaned into education and they realize that's worked yeah that's exactly it it is like they finally have time to read what we're writing you know it's we've been really lucky during this period we're mainly D2C so that's also been relatively easier as far as growing man I have no clue I'm still I feel like we're still waiting to see how all of this is going to just pan out and then how much are these how much are the products that you guys have so the moisturizer line ranges from on 29 to 39 dollars and these are 38 to 42 that sounds reasonable to me yeah it does it is very reasonable very reasonable yeah and we we want to keep it that way and for the moisturizer line we are working on revamp too to try to make the value even better but value is a hard place to be for a startup too yeah so I want to ask a question so in terms of if you guys could put your marketing hat on for a second yeah but looking at it as a scientist so put on your marketing hat and say these are the things these are the myths that we completely debunk these are the things that people definitely get wrong about skincare to me one feels like doing nothing is wrong right and so do you get what are some of the things that you could tell the listeners sounds like lack of sense this is what you've been told or this is what you're ignoring this is the fix this is what you should absolutely at a minimum do so I think for for me the biggest thing is like moisturizing is so much more important than what people realize they don't realize that if you just moisturize every day you probably don't actually need to spend all that money on treatments you know when your your skin is healthy and hydrated that's good you know and but unfortunately moisturizer just kind of been simplified to this cream that no one really takes the time to invest in that that idea and just keep keeping you know skin as hydrated as it can be and happy because once you start dealing with dry skin and it's irritation you're kind of on this vicious cycle to solve that but they then kind of you get distracted because you're like oh I need to fix you know this the wrinkles and the pigmentation where you're like no you need to bring all dial it back come back to the moisturizer so that would be like the one thing that I think from the beginning why we were also really motivated to do the moisturizer line right even though it just really wasn't the most glamorous product to start with yeah I love that I love that I feel like the mission kind of you know drove you guys to really align to go that way it makes a lot of sense is there one for you that you think of yeah for me it's probably more is not necessarily more in skincare especially now I think in the beginning Victor and I spent a lot of time writing content on just the idea of hey concentration really matters a one percent environment cesium or or you don't know the percentage versus a 15 percent environment cesium there's a difference and you know that but now that more brands are leaning to that level of transparency we see a lot bogus transparent percentages out there or brands that push it to a dangerously high level and irritation doesn't mean it's working especially for something like acids we ourselves have high potency acid lines right some lighting wings normal but if you feel like your space shouldn't look medium rare at any point and I think with that's another thing with the ordinary that we find can be a little challenging is people get too layer happy and that damage is not good yeah I think are there companies that play into that or they're like we're going to give you this it's going to be a little evident and then you're going to buy mine I think proactive my moisturizer I know of it yeah I mean there I think there's this notion and honestly I actually started from using retinoids retinoids for long history help with acne and wrinkles but everyone knew there's a side effect and now you kind of have this issue where people almost expect that in order to guarantee peeling redness stinging okay um it's just because you're scale it back yeah it's because your cell turnover cycle is just like kind of on steroids so when that happens a lot of people who have acne or dealt with acne understand that and so they're just like oh it's my retinoid my Trentinoin going to work but now people are expecting that in order to get results and that's really just gone too far that sounds crazy I think that it has to hurt yeah to work exactly the concentration thing has been a recent pet peeve of ours just because it's just so much more confusing now because now you're you're telling them to pay attention to concentration they barely might just get a hang of it and now they're like I gotta go oh higher this is better right this is more you know so happening that's that's a really good one so what's on the horizon for you guys tell everyone what you're working on now or what you might be releasing in December in winter so and we're working on a retinal we are we are nice good segue one that doesn't hurt one that doesn't hurt our feelings that's great we're in testing phase and that should be ready for December we're also trying to improve our packaging all around so hopefully it'll be a big launch in December yeah great time for the holidays yeah I think the goal is like we really want to make sure the formulas just keep getting better and better you know gen 2, gen 3 instead of like another moisturizer adding to the bunch so that's our goal for winter and then yeah who knows our goal is also to keep the line really laying so we do want to complete it with like all four categories but it's never to have like 85 products and as you can see from the names we have like aquafix baby stuff Mr. Reliable naming things are terrible it's real it's so hard yeah how you decide to name them oh what do you name them oh it's usually on long drives and Victoria has almost voted me off the island many times so aquafix almost we were thinking of Sploosh that wasn't great that wasn't great Mr. Reliable was almost McCreemie awesome that's cute and the I can see how people might miss it trip or trip or trip or trip or as you can tell we are not Mark or trip or trip or Sploosh and McCreemie yeah yeah so it wasn't good so you guys are just literally creating names yeah we sit there we go back and forth yeah we go back and forth because we want to be memorable and kind of cutesy and just but when people Google it they won't Google Mr. Reliable but would they Google McCreemie definitely not I don't know for aquafix term the safe search I think also if it sounds like the struggle too is like picking a category of things that kind of go with each other right along the same lines like to me bomb voyage and aquafix I like I like that because it's like travel you know it's like like quick things that are like super essential and like you you definitely need them and it's kind of says what it is I like that she helped us put logic to create a there is zero actually was not so do you have it in your plans to hire someone from the marketing side so okay actually before answering that we should say that skincare naming we actually think it's garbage very rarely do people remember the actual name of the product hence why we went to town on naming these because we were just like at the end of the day you're just going to think of it as oh that acid treatment I use that blue acid treatment or like oh that will work exactly so that's why we got creative and we just feel like ultimately it should be we want to have fun with it I mean if I could offer a suggestion and this is from somebody who's like yeah I smell oil it doesn't like no you know I'm like just now figuring out what's working for me and stuff so even if you were to just have chemist confessions number one number two number three and it's like then you could say okay use this one this time of day or one two at night and like three four in the morning or something like that or or whether like I've got I've got two products by Cosmetics and one of them is called Simply Brilliant and the other one is called Clarity and I've had to text my my derm and be like which is the if it just said like morning or night and it was just in the brand I would be like sorted and I'd never have to be confused about it so I've actually labeled them like morning and night oh because that's what makes sense to me and I don't care like these names are like cutesy but it's like I want it to work I want to know when to use it and like what the order is right hmm my products are literally labeled one two three literally I know yeah it's it's simple it's easy to follow and I when I go to the bathroom because it looked the same so imagine two identical units and I'll just go oh this is two all right I use this now and then three is that night and then that's it that to me makes sense and we're just providing some market data could totally be wrong I have no idea 10 years you said we'll have you back on 10 years we'll find out well tell everyone where they can find you where they can support you where they can get educated on all things and buy your products and buy your products yeah so you can find us our education content on our website chemistconfessions.com and instagram it's just chemist.confessions yeah and that's our main channels we are in a few ascetician offices there's one here called uroclear skin care by the way if you ever get an appointment with her her name's Angela she's incredible amazing shout out to Angela yeah definitely just like a therapist yeah fantastic so yeah we're in a few and also on beautylish it's a e-tailer and we should have a youtube channel soon very soon at some point too we're in the more in the mores what you got with with with your youtube channel will you guys wear like lab coats no gym clothes okay everything's casual now yeah that's true what are clothing anymore we we did buy um lab coats in the beginning we're like oh yeah we can totally wear these for trade shows or whatever i don't know where they are anymore yeah just i think derms have done it enough that we're just like yeah at the end of the day we're just your crazy kind of friends yes i think i think you're the blockchain for skin care the blockchain is i love it i love it you should use that it'll resonate with a lot of really nerdy people that go by your products so they're just like hiding in the closet because they understand it no these are the people that don't go out in the sun until they don't need skin care they don't need sunscreen whatsoever you're good they're just downstairs drinking soda and eating Cheetos well thank you guys for coming on the podcast thank you for having us i certainly learned a lot this was so informative it was so great