 Hi, I'm Rusty Kamori, and this is Beyond the Lines on Think Tech, Hawaii. I was the head coach of the Punahou Boys varsity tennis team for 22 years, and we were fortunate to win 22 consecutive state championships. My books Beyond the Lines and Beyond the Game are about leadership, character, and creating a superior culture of excellence, which is what this show is all about. My special guest today has coached and mentored three Heisman Trophy winners, Ty Detmer, Carson Palmer, and Matt Leinert, and he was the offensive coordinator in the NFL with the Tennessee Titans. He is Coach Norm Chau, and today we are going beyond football. Hey, Coach Norm, welcome to the show. Hey, Rusty, thank you for having me. Excited to be here. Now, Coach Norm, I have such great respect for you, and I know that when you were at Punahou School, you played baseball, you were a pitcher, you played basketball, you were a center, and you were a guard playing football. I mean, and you were all stars in all three sports, and what is it about football that you had such a passion for? Well, you know, it's the ultimate team sport, Rusty, without question, you know, because in baseball, everyone has to throw a ball, everyone has to bat, and basketball, everyone has to shoot, but in football, what a person does as a defensive back is compared to what a person does as an offensive lineman, two just completely different ways of doing things, yet you have to come together as a team. Everybody has to meld as one, and it makes it exciting. It's an exciting, the coached football is exciting because you have that ability to try to put it all together. Yeah, and Coach Norm, you won the prestigious Athlete of the Year Award at Punahou School, and then you went on to play football at University of Utah. Now, about coaching, okay, what is it about coaching that you love so much, and why did you become a coach? Well, Rusty, I really kind of fell into it a little bit, but you know, you realize just like you said in your book, you know, there's teachers and there's coaches, and there's a real need for those types of people, both teachers and coaches. The teachers kind of have to focus in on their subject, whatever they're doing, but a coach gets to teach the entire person, if you will, not only the subject that you're working with, but the growth and development, the spiritual part, the emotional part, all of that together to help a young man, just like we were coached. And I can remember every one of my coaches, like it was yesterday, just like we were helped. It was fun to be able to help others get to where they wanted them. Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. And Coach Norm, one of your early coaching positions, you worked with BYU with Lavel Edwards when he was the head coach. What are some things that you learned during your time with Coach Lavel Edwards? Well, he was an interesting guy. His tactical skills with football, the strategic part of football was just okay. But he knew that, and what he told us was that's why he hired us as assistant coaches. We took care of certain things, he took care of the other parts. And his part was just making sure the young men were developed. He mostly, like I said, spiritually and character-wise, and he did a great job with that, but he didn't hold back because he realized that he didn't have time for the football part of it all. Like I said, the tactical part of it all, the strategic part of it, however you want to call it. But he said, hey, I know that, but that's why I hired you. That's why the assistants were hired. And it made for a very close group of coaches because everyone felt like they were contributing. And it was because of him, the way he handled the coaches and the way he handled the players. So what kind of culture of excellence did he really create among the coaches and the players? Well, he made everybody feel important, whether you were the 90th guy on the team or the first guy on the team or the offensive coordinator or just the position guy, everyone was important to him and everyone contributed. And that made it fun for everybody because everybody wants to be included, everybody wants to be a part of it. And the way he handled young people, I tell you the other thing he did that I learned from is the way he recruited. He made a young man feel like, hey, you're really important to us and you are. And the way he handled that and the way he handled his parents, the parents, it made it, he was an interesting guy that way. He stood out above all the rest. And he didn't have a huge ego, other teams called. In fact, as assistants, we're all hoping sometime he would take another job and we'd go with him. But he didn't want to do that. The OU was where he wanted to be. And he knew that. And that made it very comfortable for the rest of us. We went on for 20 some odd years. We were on a year-to-year contract. And, but we never felt like that wasn't the next year wasn't gonna happen. Well, and Coach Norm, during your time at USC, you were the offensive coordinator and Pete Carroll was the head coach. And you guys had major success. What is it about Pete Carroll that makes him successful? He's a football junkie. And he was through it all. He had just gotten let go. There's a saying in coaching that you're not a good football coach, they get fired. Then you really understand what it's all about. And we all been fired. And he had gotten fired. So he understood what it took. And he wasn't the first choice when he went to USC. I think he was more like the third or fourth choice. But it didn't matter to him. His positive attitude that he had and he's wanting to help people. You know, his staff, a lot of his staff, he encouraged his staff members to move on because he felt like that was his, one of his roles was to mentor guys. And sure enough, you know, Ed always wanted LSU. There's a lot of guys that have moved on because of him. And that's what made him special. And he just enjoyed and had a great knowledge. Unlike LaValle, he was probably just the opposite. His strategical type skills in football and it was tremendous. Now, Coach Norm, how difficult is it for someone like Pete Carroll to be successful in college and in the NFL? There's not a lot of difference. There's not a lot of difference in the, again, in the football part of it, if you will. Like he's using that word over and over again, the technical and the strategical types things. Well, what you have to do is be able to handle young people. You really have to be able, and the pros it's, you know, that's why I think baseball guys, baseball coaches are called managers. You have to manage the players, the eagles, the huge amounts of money that the NFL players make. You have to manage that clubhouse or that locker room. And those that can do that are the ones that are more successful. You know, in college, you don't get a chance to do that as much, you know, they go to school all day, but in the NFL, I mean, you're in the office from eight till midnight, whatever, with those players, they don't have anything else to do but to be there. So you have to be able to manage that, and Pete does a tremendous job with that. Now, Coach Norm, you have my books, and you know, I talk a lot about leadership and creating a superior culture of excellence, and that's really what you're all about. And what are some things that stood out to you in the books? Well, just like you say, you know, the difference between coaching and teaching, the different highlights as to what it would take to do that, the competitiveness, the, you know, not only that type of skill, but the skill about teaching the technical parts of the game, but managing that overall person. And I think it's, you know, there's a good, in my mind, coaching doesn't always end well, if you will. You know, you look at Bobby Bowden and Woody Hayes, it's just a profession where it doesn't necessarily end well, Joe Paternal, but you know, you hear Bill Parcells and he's right when he says that you are measured by your record. And I believe that, but also that's not totally true because you have an ability or an opportunity, I should say, to mold that entire human being. And that's what I liked about some of the players that you talked about, some of the stories that you talked about, the stories of the players that you talked about. Because you know, I thought about this just recently when Bobby Bowden passed, you know, no one, yeah, they mentioned his record, but they also mentioned about what a tremendous human being he was and the influence that he had on other coaches. I went to work at NC State for one of his assistants. His first head coaching job was at NC State and he came from Bobby Bowden's staff. And Rusty, that's all he ever talked about. In fact, our manuals were, I think he just erased Florida State and put NC State in there because that's how much belief he had in this guy and not the football part. That's important, but the building of young people and how he did that. And when Bobby, when Bobby coached Bowden passed, that's all you read about. About how the, what people had to say about the type of person he was. And I think that's what's critical in your book because you cover both the entire person and that's what's critical in my mind. Yeah, and I feel like like legacy, like a legacy that you have had and like coach Bobby Bowden, I mean, legacy is how you make people feel, what it meant to them, the meaningfulness of the experience because yeah, there's records, you know, win losses, but that's separate from legacy. And I like that you brought up, you know, those coaches and coach Norm, I wanna ask you about the Heisman Trophy winners that you have coached. When you were at BYU, you coached and mentored Ty Detmer. What were some specific things that you really helped him with? Well, I wish, I wish that were kind of true, but first of all, he was a good player before we got him. You know, he came, he was a son of a coach and he was a great player, but above all else in my mind, and I was blessed to coach three Heisman Trophy winners, been back to that Heisman show or dinner, whatever, three times back in New York, but the bottom line was, there were three of those young men, the three young men were great individuals. You talk about the whole person, you know, spiritual, emotional and besides being good football players, they were there, they were there. They were all different. I was 5'11", I'm about 185 pounds, Carson Palmer was the epitome, if you were to make a training tape about how to be a quarterback and throw a football, you'd tape Carson Palmer. He learned differently, it took him a while to learn things. Matt Leiner was sharp as a day and Ty was sharp as a, Carson, not that he wasn't sharp, he just took him a little longer. He would tell me all the time, coach, I need to see it, I need to see it. I'll walk the reps, I'll walk the reps. And, but when he got it, oh gosh, did he have it? So, you know, we were blessed to do that, but I think the major, the biggest characteristic that all three of them had, the characteristics, actually one, is they were good people. Two, they were extremely bright and three, they work like heck to get better. And you know, coach Norm, I want to talk to you more about Carson and Matt as well, but you know that there, you could have all the talent in the world, but that doesn't necessarily guarantee winning. And, you know, having a star quarterback doesn't necessarily, you know, guarantee winning as well. I mean, everyone on the team has to buy in and that star quarterback has to be able to feel like they can, you know, perform at a certain level consistently to really help the whole as a team. What are your thoughts about that? Oh, I think that's, that's so true. And those young men knew how to do that. They know how to make other people better. They know how to get into a huddle and say, come on, let's get going now. They knew when to push, they knew when to back off. I'll tell you another story. I, you know, maybe stories that are better, better teaching moments, but we were at a practice one day and this great big lineman who eventually won the Outland Profi, you know, it was hot. Everybody was tired. And he leaned up at Ty and he said, just call a play. And Ty Detmer, 180 pounds, this guy's 300 pounds, looked down and he says, I'm the boss. I call a play, you just do what I ask you to do. And the guy went, oh, okay. And, but it was a perfect example of when to push that leadership and when to back away. And good players, great players, like you talked about, they know that, they get that. They understand that it takes everybody. Carson Palmer was the favorite. I mean, he, he surrounded himself with a bunch of good people. And that, that total team effort that you talked about, you know, unlike maybe just that different from individual sports, but that's so important. And that's what good players have. That's what great players have, that ability to tie it all together. So coach Norm, what, what story sticks out when I, when I mentioned Carson Palmer to you? Well, I'll tell you a story. We, the first year we were there, he was the first guy that came into the office to introduce himself. And when I handed him the playbook, which is the only smarts I have. So the playbook was about a half an inch long thick. He was so happy because the coach previous who was a tremendous football coach, his playbook was, you know, a couple of inches thick and it was hard for him to get it. So he was happy right then and there. But as we went on that first year, Rusty, we didn't, it wasn't a great year to begin with. And Pete came to me and says, you know, cause we got to make a change. If we don't get this thing going, we have to make a change in a quarter of X squad. And like I always told Pete, I said, you know, you're the boss, if you're telling me fine, if you're asking me, here's my opinion. And so we agreed that that Carson would have one more game. It was at the University of Arizona. And if he didn't perform like we wanted him to, then we were going to have to change and go to Matt Liner. And I told Carson that I didn't pull any punches. I told Carson, look, you got to have, you got to get this thing going. And Rusty, he took that and he tore Arizona apart and he just went on from there. And I often look back and we often laughed about that situation, but I think the challenge was there and great players accept challenges like that, want those challenges and he just, the rest is history. I mean, the guy is, you know, he's just, he had a tremendous college and NFL career. Well, he rose to the occasion and he never looked back and one of your other Heisman winners, like you said, is Matt Liner. What did you focus on with Matt and what made him a great leader? Well, you know, that's another good story. We went to spring practice the year that Carson left and we had some pretty good quarterbacks. In fact, we had a young man by the name of Matt Castle who spent about 15, 16 years in the national football league and they were competing for the job and there was a third player that was competing for the job. And, you know, we were trying to be fair to all of them. And I think we learned the lesson, Pete and I talked about this, by trying to be fair to all of them, we weren't fair to any of them because we gave them all equal reps and they never got enough. But that time came where the decision had to be made and Pete had felt one way, I felt others and coaches, everybody had their feelings, expressed their feelings and we decided to go with Matt and Matt knew that as well. And so when you explain that to Matt, say, listen, Matt, you know, you won this job, this is yours, but only because of this or whatever it was. And he just took off just like Carson did. Matt Liner was extremely bright. He's extremely bright. He's on television today and you can listen to him and you know how bright he is football wise. We used to scrimmage Rusty and Pete would do something on defense and Matt would just coach, you can't do that. I know what you're doing. You know, so we had a lot of fun, but he, because talent-wise he was good. He had an accurate arm. He wasn't overly strong, but he was as bright as the day was long. How tough is it? You know, Matt Liner was a lefty. What's the difference, you know, in terms of being a lefty righty as quarterback? That one's above my, I don't know. The way you accept the ball from the center, I think, because people ask me that about Steve Young as well. You know, because the ball spins differently, but I think it's just a matter of, the receiver's getting used to the spin of the ball because we didn't, you know, I mean, coaching wise, you didn't change any of the mechanics or anything like that because of the right or left. That one's way, you know, you have to have some, I mean, some physiologist that question. I don't know that one. Now, coach Norm, during your time in the NFL, you were the offensive coordinator with the Tennessee Titans and you were coaching another Heisman Trophy winner, Vince Young. What were things that you did to help him improve from the college ranks, you know, into the NFL? You know, Vince was, is an interesting guy. He's a tremendous young man as well, but he wasn't in college, everybody, they kind of catered to him, maybe he's the right word. They did things for him. So his skills as far as the technical part of the game, they're making the decisions, you know, wasn't really there when he got to the NFL, but the owners and the head coach, they had made up their mind that they wanted to play him. So we just took it slow and he understood that and we kept the game plan fairly, I don't know what the right word is, maybe basic. And then as he progressed and we would go on and on and on, but he was such a talented young man that could run and throw and, you know, he had a long way to go mentally, like I said, try not mentally, but trying to make sure he understood coverage is that kind of thing. But once he got it, he was like Carson, he was tremendous, but he was so skilled. I remember us telling him one day we were in an overtime game and it was a real critical down, third, four or whatever. And, you know, you could talk them on the phone. I said, Vince, look, look for the primary receiver, look for the tight end, if not run, just get us four yards away and hold on to the ball. He took off, he went 58 yards, Rusty, he scored a test down, the game was over, it was overtime game, we looked at each other, wow, what was that? Well, we just wanted four yards and he went 58, but he had that kind of ability. And he's a really nice young man. I got to see him about a year ago, he was in Los Angeles at ESPN and he's a grown man now with a family. Vince was fun, Vince was really fun. So coach Norm, in terms of coaching styles, I mean, back in the day, you know, there's the Vince Lombardi coaching style. And, you know, how coaching has changed through these decades. I mean, you can't do things like they used to do nowadays. That's right. How was your coaching style when you first started? And then how did you have to adapt, you know, in recent times to how it is now? Sure, that's a real good question. Let's see, you know, we grew up, and you're exactly right. You know, I can remember my high school coaches, Charlie Annay and Dave Eldridge and, I mean, I, and Bud Scott, I mean, they were hard now. And one of my real heroes is coach Annay, you know, his colleague's dad. And I didn't like playing football. When I first got to football, it was hard. He was so hard on us. But then one day, I remember my dad and my other hero, obviously, after practice, one day, I was complaining to him on the way home and he says, you know what, son, did it ever occur to you that all coach Annay is trying to do is make you better? And that always stuck with me because regardless of your style, if the young person realizes that you're trying to help them get better, they'll do whatever he asks. And that's especially true in the national football league. Those guys spend, you know, they have so little time, right? The NFL means not for long. If they know that you care about them and trying to make them better, they will run through the wall. And I think that's the key. And that's the big difference nowadays. You can't be like coach Annay and get after you and get after you and get after you. You have to kind of do it a little different way, but the result or the goal remains the same. Try to get the young man better. Try to put young people in a position to be successful, just like I think you talked in your book. If you put them in a position to be successful and they know that you're trying to do that, I think that's the key. No, you're so right. It's all about empathy. And coach Norm, you know, great coaches are always learning. And that's what makes them even greater. And during your time as head coach at University of Hawaii, what are some things that you learned during that time? Well, that was a, as you know, kind of a difficult time. They were, Hawaii was going from the WAC to the Mount West. The differences are huge. Hawaii really has difficulty with finances and all that kind of stuff. I think the biggest lesson that I learned was a little bit of patience because the young people that were in the program that we were a part of were terrific young guys. They tried like heck. It was hard for them. You know, you get on an airplane. I remember Rocky Long at San Diego State, we were before the game, he came up to me and he says, that's a hard trip coming over here. You know, it takes a lot of it. I said, right, you do this once. We have to do this six times when we go to the mainland. So don't complain about the one time you came over on a charter and we go on a commercial and we laughed about that. But it was very difficult for the players, I thought, but they handled it well. They tried, you know, it didn't work out the way it's supposed to. But I tell you, the one thing that I take great pride in about my time at University of Hawaii was that I felt like our teams always played hard. They did the best they could and that's all you can ask. I mean, we, you know, we were playing one year. We played Colorado, I think, Ohio State, Wisconsin, at all in a row. And by the time that group of games were over, I mean, it was hard. It was hard for these young people. You know, you get on a commercial flight and you're sitting back there with grandma and the little grandson going off to Disneyland and you take 315 pounds and try to squeeze into a little seat. It made it hard, but those kids never complained. And I think that was the best lesson that I learned about young people and how resilient they really are. Yeah, I know that's, and like you said about effort, I mean, as coaches, all we can expect from our players and our teams is having a great attitude and giving a fantastic effort. And coach Norm, you know, personally or professionally, what's a big adversity situation that you dealt with in your life? Well, that's a hard one, Russ. I guess I can tell the story. You know, I was sitting in a hotel room in Houston, Texas on a Friday. We were about ready to play a game on that next day and I get a phone call and they brushed my wife to the hospital, my daughter-in-law called and not sure what it was. She had a tremendous headache. And I told her, you know, I asked her if it came up with, I could tell the story and it ends well. So it's not, anyway. So I talked to my children. We decided to coach the game. I coached the game on Saturday. I flew back to Los Angeles. So we had great assistant coaches, Deronte Jones, who's now with LSU as an assistant coach. He took the team back. And you know what, Russ? When I got to the, I lived near the LAX airport. So I came home to jump in and get a quick shower. And I looked down and her bags were half packed because it was a Friday, the Saturday that was Sunday. That Friday, we're going to bury my mother in Hawaii. My mother had passed, we were going to have a funeral service. So one Friday, my wife has an aneurysm and the next Friday we were burying my mother and it was a hard time. It was a very, very difficult time, but it was also a time when I had to sit back and say, look, all the things that you're trying to teach, just like you as a coach, everything that you try to teach your young people about getting up after you fall, everybody falls, nobody wins all the time. Prove it now. Be a man and be the guy you think you are for your children and all that. And that's what we tried to do. And you know, it ends well. We find out later that she had an aneurysm. She had a bleed they call in her brain and was in ICU for a couple, three weeks. We'd play a game on Saturday, Saturday night, fly back to LA. And then Monday night I'd go back to Honolulu and try to coach the team. And but it made you realize that that, you know, like just like we talk about during this time that how important other factors are besides the winning, who won the game four years ago? You know, you'd have to go back and look. But and fortunately, we found out later, Rusty, that 50% of the people that had what she had don't even make it through that day. And of the 50% that didn't make it, only 13%, 16%, something like that, get all of the faculty back. It ended well. She's fine, still going strong after all these years. So you learn it and everybody faces adversity. Everybody faces adversity in their careers in coaching and your willingness or your ability to get back up and get moving is, I think, you know, the real key. Like Martin Luther King said, right? What is that? He has a famous quote, the ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in times of comfort and convenience, but rather where he stands in times of challenge and controversy. It's on his monument back there. I told my every team I've ever had. I told him about that saying that I just love because that's the truth. I love that saying, Coach Norman. Coach, I wanna ask you one more question before we wrap up. You've seen greatness, you've coached greatness. How do you define greatness? That's a hard one, Rusty, that's a hard one. Very few people get to that level in my mind, but it is probably a combination of hard work, dedication, humility, respect, all of the characteristics that you talk about in your book put together, combined into one human being. And I think that defines greatness. You know, that's a big work because, you know, everybody has difficult times. Everybody wins, everybody loses. But it's those guys that you remember, the coach bounds at the time of his passing, people just raving about the type of person he was, the legacy that he left, the people that he made better. I think that's greatness. And, you know, we all wish we could get there. Coach Norm, absolutely fantastic hearing your insights and having you on the show today. Well, thank you for having me. And then we enjoy your deest, your deest and my granddaughter of best pals. And so we'll hopefully see a lot more of you. And then it's an honor to be here, Rusty, and thank you for thinking about us and thank you for having us. Thanks, Coach Norm. Thank you. Thank you for watching Beyond the Lines on Think Tech Hawaii. For more information, please visit rusticamory.com and my books are available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. I hope that Coach Norm and I will inspire you to create your own superior culture of excellence and to find your greatness and help others find theirs. Aloha.