 ʻI'm sorry it didn't work. A very first time I attended a sudden death was a most likely gang member that stretched straight into a palm tree. That was a 20-year-old picking up someone you felt like described it as a bag full of broken pottery. I've seen it first hand. My relatives, you know, were in gangs ando maenai maithai mienai poi tini i blisai. Darogadao maenai tini te gansiai dada tani. Tungu'n waith kokoi, maenai. Tumai, maenai. Walao. Tumai. Walao. Tungu'n waith kokoi, maenai. Tumai. Walao. Tumai. Walao. Walao. Tumai. Tumai. Tumai. Walao. Walao. Windu'n. o waleva, beth sy'n, a' kana waznt lik at that stage, beth this just really helps ground your understanding of the body's fight and flight mechanism, which affects us all of us on a daily basis, several times a day. And yet, until I read this, I'd never really focused on it, Sean, but before we talk about your great book, Attack Panic, how are things in New Zealand? Oh, I think everyone's pretty, pretty keen to, you know, to close off to 2020. Yeah, let's hit the reset button. Yeah, let's not even mention the the C and the number. Oh, yeah. Gets screwed up with YouTube. They don't even like you talking about it, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's that. That's about all I was going to say. So we're really, we're keen to see the end of this year and sort of reset the buttons. But, you know, we're we're pretty well divorced from what's going on around the world. And, you know, we live in our own little bubble. Yeah, I mean, so we're everything's pretty cool here. You know, our economy's still moving along with we're just moving to the summer. So the weather's improving and spirits are high. But it's pretty tough, just like everywhere else. But New Zealand New Zealand seems to be quite resilient. Yes, I had an absolutely fantastic time travelling around New Zealand in my friend's camper van. And my only criticism is you need a better rugby team. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely at the moment. Oh, you know, like my my old grandma used to say, you know, boy, a good old hiding never hurt anyone. So a good old a good old threshing now. I mean, it's good for as good. Yes, it gets it's it's the I almost said the great reset then, which is a bloody Orwellian new speak word. But yes, so you're in the police force for several years. Yeah, I did. I did my 10 years. I wanted to wanted to do 10 years. So I had a I had a a really fruitful and rewarding career. Most of that was spent in the CIB as a detective. And yeah, it was it was great. It was traumatic, it was stressful, didn't realise it at the time it was going on. But you know, the way we dealt with trauma back in those days was just go out and drink lots and misbehave. And you know, and comfort by numbers, security in numbers. Yes, can you give some example, Sean, of the traumatic things that you experienced? I mean, are we are we talking like shootings and starbings and stuff? And yeah, so in terms of my own personal safety, nothing, nothing like that. Although, you know, I was in fights and there was lots of attacks with, you know, with weapons and things like that. But when I say traumatic, I'm talking about the experiences that I had to attend, you know, anything from, you know, murders and rapes and child, child molestation and all that sort of carry on and right through to, you know, car accidents and attending deaths and things like that. So I wrote in my book about, you know, the very first time I attended a sudden death was a motorcycle gang motorcycle gang member drove straight into a palm tree. And back in those days, they wore, you know, those sort of German-style army helmets that were completely useless that protecting your head and they didn't even tie them down. So, you know, as he collided and, you know, impacted against the tree, nothing protected his head. So I was a 20-year-old, 20-year-old policeman there and I'd only been in the police about, you know, several weeks. And I attended because I was a motor, I rode, rode motorcycles back then as well. So that was one of my, that was my first sudden death that I attended all by myself and I had to deal with it all by myself. And that was, as a 20-year-old, picking up someone's head and it felt like described it as a, you know, a bag full of broken pottery when you try to, you know, handle with as much compassion as you could the body and it was just like a sack of broken pottery. And, you know, that was my first sort of exposure to death and, you know, over the years, you attended lots and lots of, you know, sudden death and car crash, deaths through car crashes and all sorts of others, hangings and, you know, murders and, you know, bodies that have been in lakes for bloody weeks and been discovered and stuff like that. So that's the trauma I'm talking about. And then there's that, the other side of trauma is when you're just dealing with just really bad people, you know, doing really bad things to other people like children, for example, you know, children's sex offending and rapes and real violent offending as well. So, yeah, that's the sort of trauma that I'm talking about that you deal with or you think you're dealing with and you probably are dealing with it on the outside because normally the good thing about being in the police is when you're dealing with scenarios or, you know, serious crimes or anything, those sorts of situations, you're usually with a group, you're with numbers and there's comfort in numbers. So, you know, you all sort of deal with the situation and then you go and sort of debrief and then you go out back in my day, you get on the piss and, you know, and just to deal with it, deal with it in numbers like that and, you know, my belief is that anxiety conditions are a learnt behaviour, but I also do believe that there's probably some predisposition as well, you know, some people may be a bit more prone to, you know, being exposed to or I'm succumbing to anxious anxiety or whatever, for whatever reason. Do you think, and you go on, sorry, there's an analogy like, you know, your upbringing and your personality and your disposition like loads the gun, right? It puts the bullet in the gun and cocks it, but it's your, it's your, it's your nurture, it's your environment, it's your conditioning and your learnt behaviour that pulls the trigger. So just because you might have a disposition to being a bit more anxious or a bit more shy or whatever, because of your upbringing or whatever, it doesn't mean you have to put up with that shit. It doesn't mean you have to let it rule your life and let it limit you and restrict you to do whatever you want in life. Before we move on, Sean, I think our friends at home would find it fascinating if we could talk a bit about Maori culture in New Zealand. Sorry to sort of step back, but you mentioned the chap on the motorbike and I've seen just through, well, through the media. Is it the mongrel mob is a big, a big gang down your way? It's one of them. We've got several ethnic, if you like, gangs. We've got the mongrel mob are fairly big. We've got the Black Power. They're fairly big. And there's another couple of other streets as well that I'm not even going to dignify by mentioning, but those are the two main ones. Yeah. And that's where a lot of our youth are going for identity and self-worth and sort of belonging and shit like that. Yes, my first sort of introduction to that part of life in New Zealand was the film Once Were Warriors, which was a huge hit over here. Anybody that grew up, you know, my generation or certainly watch videos, I think it was in the 80s. So you've got introduced to this indigenous people in New Zealand and they all seemed a bloody big, very tattooed and a bit psycho. Of course, having been there, I now understand the socio-economic implications of how New Zealand has developed since it was colonised. Sorry if that's not the right word, but since... That's so good. You know, since the Norveners went down there. But that film was really hard, hard hitting. Is does that still play out in parts? Is that kind of what the mongrel mob type of culture comes from? Yeah, and I can vouch for that because, you know, I'm Ngati Kahanunu and I was brought up in Hawkes Bay in Marainui, which is the sort of lower socio-economic area of Napier, the Hawkes Bay. So I've seen it first hand my relatives, you know, were in gangs. And also my 10 years in the police, obviously I'm interacting with the gangs all the time. So it's definitely a thing. It's pretty accurate. But I just need to stress that that's the minority. You know, it's most people growing up will never be exposed to that environment. You know, it's not an environment that you see everywhere you go. You'd only have to go to a particular part of town to particular... We call them public bars. They're called public bars here, where that, you know, where that sort of profile, you know, member of society or sector of society go. So it's definitely a minority. But they can be rat bags and they can cause a bit of problems. They normally only cause problems within themselves. You know, they keep to themselves. But now and then it spills over to the to the general public, but otherwise they keep to themselves. What is it that makes some Indigenous Māori have the tattoos? And obviously thinking the facial tattoos in particular. And some people choose choose not to. I think it's an obvious question, obvious answer. But I'm not going to get a chance to ask somebody. Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, I don't know if I'm, you know, this is probably outside my swim lane to be fair. But from my own experience, you know, that's that's a sense of identity and the sense of belonging gives them a sense of, like I said, identity and part of a part of a whānau, part of a part of a gang. So it gives them that self, it gives them that self worth. Why some do and some don't. I don't I don't really know, but it definitely is part of the culture. Like respect for ancestors as well, I would would imagine. Well, you know, there is that that type of of, you know, tattoo or moko. But the ones with the swastikas and, you know, sikau and all that, the others, the other part of the side of the tattooing. That's that's more about belonging to a gang or family. That's their new family. And they just, you know, identifying themselves and creating and advertising the family, the whānau that they now belong to. And it seems like a good idea at the time. But, you know, usually bites them in the bum when they grow up because a lot of them grow up and they come to the senses. So, yeah, of course. And Crystal Meph was something I fell foul of in Hong Kong, as anyone who's read my memoir will know. I believe that's called Pee in New Zealand, is it? Yep. Yeah, and I'm guessing these gangs are dealing this sort of stuff in large quantities to fund their activities. Yeah, so that's, you know, that's the intelligence. That's what we've been led to believe. And I think there's probably a bit of truth to that. And my experience as a police policeman, you know, that sort of drug dealing and manufacture and sale always there's always a drug again element there differently. Yes. And. It's interesting because New Zealand, I mean, it is that country that's always quoted as being so far away from the rest of the world, which is wonderful for for you guys. And it's great for us backpackers that have been down there because. Yeah, it's just an amazing place. And yeah, we can have a whole podcast just talking about the diversity in New Zealand, the exciting things to do or the adventure sports. I did my first first part of my skydiving course down at Taupo. The trout fishing is amazing. It's got to be the best in the world. The rainbow trout is huge. So, yeah, the the volcanic springs, the the the sulfuric fumes coming up from the drain covers from from the volcanic activity. The the landscape is, I mean, Lord of the Rings, obviously, was filmed there. And anyone who's seen that that movie will will would get something get something from just visiting New Zealand alone. But just just to finish off, because I don't want to detract too much from your story, Sean, I'm just really fascinated about such things. Gras as in weed is obviously grown in the local area. I'm guessing that the the pea or the meth is either made in New Zealand or shipped from from Asia or Australia. Yeah, that's a good question. I think that we probably manufacture most most of it, in my opinion. And we've, you know, back in even back in my day, we, you know, we'd bus. We've busted, you know, we'd bus quite a few labs to going up all over the place to becoming more portable even back then. And, you know, even now anecdotally, we see on the news lots of Peelabs are still getting, you know, busted and closed down and, you know, lots and lots of expensive assets. Usually you usually follow suit and proceeds of crime proceedings. So whether we're importing, I'm not I'm not too sure. So this it's readily available. I know that much. Yeah, so this mongrel mob, Sean, they sound like full on soldiers at the best of times and you put you put them on crystal meth. This that's going to cause some and these guys are huge as well. Aren't they some of them? That the. Yeah. I mean, I'm guessing this boys. Yeah, I mean, they're probably big from an indigenous genetic perspective. But I'm guessing there's some steroids and stuff going on there as well. And then you chuck chuck a drug like crystal meth in the mix. You must have arm robberies going off and real. You know, when you put it like when you put it like that, you'd expect more shit happening now. So there's not, you know, like I say, they. They play in their own backyard. OK, so they stick to themselves. But that's probably because of the organised nature of their crime, their crime now. You know, I mean, again, I'm outside my swim land. And this is just my opinion. But when it's that organised, you don't need to go out and rob. When you when you've got, you know, sophisticated distribution chains that they have. And I know that because, you know, my circles, I see I see those drugs all the time. You know, my social circles on the musician. I'm out there playing all the time. So the distribution chains are very sophisticated. And so when you're making that much money, even along that distribution chain, the need to go out there into the general public and cause havoc is, you know, is not needed. And there's a bit of, you know, trouble brewing between the gangs. But, you know, that's going to be around. What's the time? What's their initiation? I bet it's something really extreme. I don't know what the initiation is now, Chris, but it used to be it used to be pretty extreme. It used to always involve some level of violence. But not normally on members of the public. It was normally on other gang members, you know what I mean? Yeah, some sort of retaliation or something maybe revenge. Yeah, yeah, and doing horrible things to each other. And, you know, and having the, you know, the standard one was, you know, getting the crap absolutely beaten out of you as part of your initiation. And committing crime, committing some sort of crime was used to be the go. I honestly, it's been so long now since I was part of that. I wouldn't know what the initiation is these days. And, Sean, just one final question. Seeing as though we've got your knowledge, where during your time as a detective, did you see much cocaine coming into New Zealand? Because, again, it's so far away from everywhere. Yeah, it comes in. It definitely comes in as we know that it comes in because we're stopping it at the borders. So, what we know is what we stop is not, you know, if that's how much is coming in, we know that we're stopping that much. Yeah. You know, we're not stopping everything that comes in. So, that's coming in. The myth is coming in a little, we're not catching a lot of that by all accounts. And I can say that because I have somebody that I communicate with regularly at customs. So, I know what's going on at customs. It just so happens that it's just a coincidence. So, it's readily available. I know that it's really available because I'm a social person. I go out and I still like to party with my group of friends and the social users. So, it's readily available when we don't manufacture it, produce it here. We know that much. Yeah. Somehow it's still getting through. The price is still the same even this year with, you know, the borders situation and that. So, that's a really good question. I can't see us producing it here. No. I'm just kind of curious because in the UK it's fairly huge. I'm not sure of what you actually buy for your 50 quid, which is quite expensive when you consider, you know, you can get meth or something for a tenor and anyone listening, I'm not suggesting you do this. This is just educational speak here. But whatever you buy here, it's pretty shit. You know, they put so much other cheaper chemicals in to give you this false sort of sense. And if it's that bad here, and yet we're not even that diluted here, yeah, then I'm wondering what it's like. In fact, you're probably... I'm just looking at on my map here for the South America. I'm not sure geographically, you're probably a bit further away, aren't you, than us? You're probably the other side of Antarctica. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. We're closer to Asia than we are to South America than you guys. Yes. And that's another weird thing, is when I was in Hong Kong, which is a fair way away from South America, the cocaine there was just pure. Just like it's just come from a jungle bloody laboratory or something. But then again, Hong Kong's the shipping capital of the world probably. So all the trade capital of the world. So back to your police days, then, Sean, you started coming under severe pressure, stress, and it all started building up? Yeah, well, just I didn't know it. I didn't know because never experienced inappropriate anxiety attacks or panic attacks ever before. And I wasn't prone to shine. Don't think so or anything. I was just a normal kid growing up into sports, into himself. Thought he was 10 foot tall and bulletproof. And yeah, something really interesting happened one day. And you can't chastise yourself over trying to figure out why shit happens and the cause of it. That's not important. Important thing is to realise that you have a bad behaviour and get rid of it and change the behaviour. And that removes the anxiety. But do you want me to explain, talk about my first time, my first time I experienced a panic attack or? Yes, please. Feel free, Sean, to enlighten us to whatever you feel is pertinent to your story. Yeah, so I mean, everything, when I think back, everything seemed pretty normal. I was a uniform policeman at that stage. I was probably about 22 or 23. And then I had to go and talk at a school of, primary school, five and six year olds. And I'd done that a dozen times before. And I sat in front of them in the room and I just remember my heart starting to race and found it difficult to speak. My throat was tensing up my stomach. Butterflies were started bloody, experienced butterflies in my stomach and everything was tightening up and I just felt this overwhelming urge to get the fuck out of there. Like it was just really, really overwhelming and I couldn't think and what was happening, I was having a panic attack, but I didn't know what was happening. I didn't know why and I just couldn't function and I was profusely sweating and everything and I just was like an outer body or just a body. It was like an outer body or derealisation or depersonalisation experience. And what was happening was my subconscious mind and the panic button had been turned on for whatever reason. For whatever reason, the panic button was turned on in a situation when it shouldn't have ever been turned on. But I reacted badly and I made a situation worse. But I couldn't go anywhere so I just sat there and I just sucked it up. And I gave my talk and it was embarrassed. Then you overcome with embarrassment and all this sort of carry on because you just don't know what's happening. And that was the very first time but what happened was I didn't get up or go anywhere because I couldn't, I had to keep talking. So within about five minutes it had gone. That fear had gone and the sensations, the sensations had subsided. The adrenaline was still present in my body as I didn't know this. The reason why the anxiety sensation increased was because adrenaline is released into the body to prepare you for fight or flight. That's what's happening. That's why you're feeling on edge and every or hell breaks loose. So there was still adrenaline in my body but because I'm an adrenaline junkie, it felt good. And that's probably part of my problems because I always saw adrenaline inducing activities. But when you've got that adrenaline in your body and you don't know why it's there, it can be quite uncomfortable. But anyway, I stayed there, did the talk and within five minutes it had all gone, gone away. And I was going, wow, that was fucking weird. So I jumped in the patrol car wondering what the hell just happened and then just forgot about it. And just didn't think much of it. But what happened was over time that those sorts of incidences will keep happening randomly more and more. And then what happens is you start worrying about that, that memory, the experience and you start thinking about and anticipating the next time things like that happens. And so over time, what's happening in the background is your normal level of anxiety through behaviour modification, through repetitiveness, your baseline level of anxiety is growing in the background. It's levels are rising and rising and your new normal anxiety levels are getting higher and higher. Whereas when you're born you have, say, you just have a, this is your baseline level of anxiety and through trauma, through stress, through exhaustion, through whatever, you can start stressing out and you can get exhausted and it happens with everybody. And if you don't take time to relax and to chill out and to allow the anxiety to receive back down to normal, you'll end up resetting your anxiety levels, if that makes sense. That's the layman's terms of what's going on. So next minute you're walking around and you're functioning with all this adrenaline in your body because your anxiety levels, your baseline anxiety levels has been reset to higher than normal levels. So you're firing off all these bloody anxious sensations all the time and if you don't know what's happening, you start becoming aware of that. You start becoming concerned about it and what we call resistance, you start resisting it. So the more you resist the more, persist the more and you resist the more prevalent these sensations get and you're just building this anxious behaviour. So you're walking around anticipating these shots of adrenaline and panic and sure enough that's going to happen because that's where your attitude and your attention is. And so for me, I'd be walking around and just having panic attacks all over the place. And I couldn't even, I didn't even know what was causing it. So I couldn't go, okay, there's a cafe. I'm not going to go into that cafe because I'm going to have a panic attack. So the panic attacks are kicking in and what we're saying here, Sean, is your response in trying to protect yourself from them is actually entrenching them deeper and setting your, turn that light down, sorry. It's actually establishing them even more. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Your behaviours perpetuating the problem, your conscious attitude is making the situation worse. Wow. And yeah, in a nutshell, I mean, we're just brushing over this, but essentially your conscious attitude in the moment is what fuels anxiety into panic attacks. Anxiety attacks start with a little sensation and that sensation brings up a memory and experience. So the trigger, like for example, if you're going to a queue in a bank, if you stand in the line and this is a thing and if that triggers in a response, and an anxious response, that's not the problem. That's not the problem at all. The problem is what you do with that anxious, initial anxious sensation if that makes sense. So if I'm going into a boardroom, so this is one of my ones, so I'll use my experiences. At the height of my panic, I'd be sitting in the boardroom and it's like ridiculous now when I think about it. And the minute someone looked at me or asked me a question, I'd feel these really uncomfortable tightening, this tightening in my chest and my stomach and just start becoming really have these out-of-body experiences and those initial sensations would turn up. And what I did with that at that point determined whether it just fizzled out into nothing or whether it just went haywire and all, how broke loose and turned on the panic button and resulting in the overwhelming urge to just get the hell out of there. And so it was that initial sensation and people looking at me and going, oh, fuck, I'm going to embarrass myself. I've got to get out of here. I've got to get out of here. And now if I kept thinking like that, which is what happens, you will, it will get so bad where you have to leave. You don't have to actually leave, but that's what you believe. So until you act on that belief, more adrenaline is going to be pumped into your body. You're going to get more on, feel more on edge and all your senses are going to get heightened to the point where you've just got to either fight or run. But it doesn't have to be like that. You can dis-empower it as soon as that initial sensation or trigger turns up. You walk PTSD, you walk in soldiers or ex-police, you walk into a cafe and the people that you're with say, we're going to sit in the middle of the cafe, fuck, that will just trigger all sorts of like, fuck, that's going to happen. You know, I'm going to the exit. I'm sitting up against the wall. So that's creating all these tension and if you act on that, if you go towards that middle of that cafe, it's going to create even more tension and anxiety. It's going to release even more adrenaline into your body and you'll probably freak out and act on that. And what I'm saying is you don't have to act on that. You can talk to yourself in a way that turns the panic button off. Yes, I'm resonating with this when I'm talking to an audience. Sometimes I'm thinking like, sorry, go on, just move this light, Sean, it's never in the right place. Yeah, I'm talking to an audience and as the speakers introducing me in the seconds it's like five, four, I'm stood there thinking, oh my God, what, you get that kind of nervous feeling and you think, what if I can't speak? What if I'm like, right? But what I do, I don't know if this is some of you, I'm just like, oh, fuck it. I'm in for a penny, in for a pound. Just dive in and just, this is, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it. And suddenly that switch just enables me to sort of go into professional. Professional mode. 100% and that's a huge takeaway if there are sufferers watching, listening and they think they have to cope. What they need to know is that every time you act on that false fear, so let's call it a false alarm, right? Let's call this public speaking, five, four, three, two, one, it's your turn. That trigger or that fear, which is perfectly normal, if you were to act on that, so what's happening is, your false alarm is telling you to do something and I'll go back to my situation. In the border in the false alarm is saying, fuck Sean, you better get the hell out of here before you embarrass the shit out of yourself. Before you have to start talking, find an excuse. Find an excuse to just go. You've got to go right now. So if you act on that and you get up and you follow on that belief, if you act on that, you're going to go out of the room and your panic will immediately subside because there's no more fear. By doing that, you've told your subconscious that there's no more fear, but every time you do that, you reinforce the fact shit that was lucky I left that border in because if I had to stay there, it would have been really embarrassing. But one of the takeaways for sufferers, and it might be really hard to understand or believe or even have trust in what I'm saying is, if you did stay there, nothing would ever happen. The fact that you went against what your false alarm was telling you to do is a non-resistant attitude and the fact that you stay there because it's bullshit, because it's a false alarm, nothing will ever happen. And when you stay there and when you stand up and just go, fuck it, what you just said, fuck it, my mantra is it is what it is, fuck it, it is what it is. I'm going to get up, I'm going to move forward and I'm going to engage. The minute you open your mouth, everything's fine. Yeah, it always is because you're dealing with a false alarm that you're not acting on. The two things you need to know before you go into your hot moments, the most important thing that the therapies don't tell you or the programmes don't tell you is you've got to do some homework before you go and address your anxiety-provoking situations. You have to know intimately what you believe is going to happen, right? You need to know what the false alarm is telling you to do. In the boardroom situation, for me, the false alarm would be, fuck it, the hell out of here before you embarrass a shit out of yourself. Yep, before they look at you and you have to speak, find a reason to get out. That's what my belief, the false alarm is telling me to run. Run before you embarrass yourself. You've got to know before you go into your hot moments what your beliefs are because you need to be able to challenge them in the right way. You've got to know what your false alarm wants you to do because your job is to not do what that false alarm is telling you to do. That's all you need to do. And you need to know what you do physiologically as well, okay? In your hot moment, you're going to do things. For example, if I'm at a, in the boardroom and the people are looking at me and it's my turn and someone mentions me, you know, you get this sort of thing going on here, you're trying to frickin' shrinking you, sort of, you know, and people are looking at you so, you know, it's like, you need to know all these physiological things you do to protect yourself because while you're doing those, you've reinforced to the subconscious mind that you need protecting. So, you know, I know what my false alarm's telling me to do, to get the fuck out while I'm not going to do it. I know physiologically what I normally do. So, you know, when I came out of it, when I can kick that ass, is when I felt the sensations turning up, I can move forward. I use my physiology positively instead of going like this and trying to shrink. I, you know, I pushed my shoulders back. I pumped my chest out. I moved forward and I put my hands on the table right in front of anyone and I just spoke. And as soon as I did that, nothing happened. So, the showing people how to disempower panic is really easy. It's really easy and it's 100% successful every single time you do what I've just said, providing you've done your homework. The problem here, Chris, is that you have the success and you run out of the room and you're going to tell your wife that you've just healed yourself and going to tell your friends and you know, you've got this new lease of life because you're no longer limited by all this shit. But what you don't realise is that you still have a bad habit, right? So, the next time you go into a queue at a bank, the next time you go to public speak or the next time you go to a situation that triggers your panic, it's going to happen again and again, and again, and again until you rewrite, until you change the record, until you change the habitual patterns of behaviour. And that's the problem for people because they think, wow, I've just healed myself and then tomorrow they go back into a cafe and the shit happens again. They forget what to do in a hot moment. They forget what to do in a hot moment because it's still a habitual pattern of behaviour to react the way they reacted. So, they're going up like this and they go, I have a success and then they have a failure and they go, oh, fuck this shit doesn't work and they just go back coping and managing and using all their safety crutches and excuses. But if they just realise that it's one thing to disempower panic in the moment, that's a piece of piss. But to remove the triggers, to remove the sensitivity, to remove the panic, you have to do some work. You've got to do some work on yourself. You've got to build some new routines. You've got to reset that amygdala from this new baseline back down to normal and you can only do that through repetitive behaviour. You know, you created the habitual pattern of behaviour. It's through repetitive, anxious behaviour whether you knew it or not. The only way to reset that is by practising being a non-anxious person, day in, day out, routine after routine after routine. And that's what sufferers won't do. So, they have success. They have success, but then they expect it, like they expect to be healed instantly when that's not how habituation, it's not how behaviour works. You don't pick up a guitar, I'm a musician. You don't pick up a guitar and a week after trying to learn how to play like Stevie Ray Vaughan, you chuck it away and go, oh, this shit doesn't work. I can't play like Stevie Ray Vaughan. You don't expect that. Well, changing your patterns of habitual patterns of behaviour is exactly the same, but we, because it's uncomfortable and it's based around discomfort and fear, we want that shit gone now. We're not willing to expose ourselves over time, to keep practising in attitude and practising and practising until it becomes sick in nature. That's my takeaway. Yeah, the points that are coming up here for me is also, if you went to see a traditional, let's say, therapist or what they call talk therapy, two things are going to happen there. One, I doubt that therapist is going to be saying the direct action measures that you're telling me now, shorty, I reckon they're going to be more. I haven't done it, so I'm not generalising here, and this is for the sake of conversation, but if they're like, oh, they're there, you're okay, tell me what happened. Well, two things. One, they're not getting this vital tool that clearly is the thing to address the panic. It's the turnaround, face it, I know there's a lot more to it because I've read a lot more things you can do because I've read your book. But also, along with not getting the proper tool to deal with it, you're re-establishing that fear and panic by talking through these scenarios all the time. Absolutely, 100%. There's got to be a balance about talking about it because when you talk about something that doesn't even exist, that is a ghost that's a false alarm, every time you talk to the wrong person about it, you're reinforcing that behaviour, right? That's why I say in my book, don't talk to family members about it, talk to someone like myself or a therapist that knows their shit, right? Because too much talking just reinforces this false fear. We're not in... There's a balance between allowing you, say for you or a safara, because I've got to build that relationship with you. So I'm going to listen to you for a little bit. But I'm a coach, I'm not a therapist. And a coach-student relationship, the coach does all the talking. The student just listens and does what he or she's told, right? But you've got to build that relationship up. So I'll listen to your story a little bit. But I want to get to the cause. I want to get to giving you the tools and the education and the training and the roadmap and the program to heal yourself if you want to heal yourself. There's way too much talk going on. There should be more coaching. You know, student... In any student-coach scenario, the student fucking doesn't do all the talking. The coach does all the talking. Whether you're an individual tennis coach, tennis student, whether you're a team. You don't hear the bloody team talking all the time. You've got to shift that balance. But you can't do that without building that relationship. And that's the big rub. Unless a therapist or whatever, a counsellor, whatever, can relate to you. It's a bit of an uphill battle getting students to do what they have to do. And even myself, man, I can build really strong relationships. And there are just some that are just so entrenched in this fear that they're just not willing to do what they have to do. They can disempower panic, but to day in, day out, do what you need to do. The mantras, the self-talk, the self-love, the self-acceptance, the gratitude. And the practising going into your hot moments with the right attitude, with the right mantras set up, with your right set up and all your planning. It fucking takes effort, man, because it's really uncomfortable. It's got to become a part of you, Sean, right? I mean, there's two things we haven't spoken about, but there's two things I do in my everyday life, every single second of the day. I probably even do it when I'm asleep now. One is ultimate self-love. And you can add in that forgiveness, because I've done shitloads of stupid stuff in my life, right? Of which I'm completely apologised. Still cringing, still cringing over it. Oh, God, yeah. Chuck in a good sprinkler or a few shovelfuls of cringe as well. So ultimate self-love, which involves forgiveness. Just as an aside, I chuck it in there for people that are interested, but for me, the past is the past. I don't even think... The only thing I think about the past is the good stuff. The rest of it, I couldn't care less about. Today's the day, tomorrow is my future. Just on that forgiveness, Chris, just one thing with the forgiveness. It's really important that we forgive ourselves, because we've got to be able to forgive others as well. Because we're not... To be able to forgive yourself and be able to forgive others is to acknowledge that I'm not perfect. And neither is anyone else. So that compassion, you do that for yourself, you forgive others for yourself. It's a real healing. When I'm chatting to my young people, Sean, doing the odd bit of life coaching, I explain it like this. If you're in the marble championship of the world and you've got your big pot of marbles, but in life, the reality is you've got a gripe with this person because I don't know, they bullied you at school or they backhanded you when you didn't deserve it or not that we deserve getting hit, but something like this, it's like you're trying to win the marble championship of the world but you're taking your marbles and you're putting them in their pot. And then you wonder why you're not winning, i.e. why you're not happy. And it's what Sean said. You have to forgive. I mean, it doesn't mean, like, accepting that bad behaviour is OK. That's a different thing again. It's that you got on this person's human. They got a story like you. If they were bullying you at school, imagine the shit that they were probably going through at home. That's empathy and compassion, brother. To forgive others is to acknowledge that you're not perfect as well. And it's a real moral high ground that's always a slippery slope, that moral high ground that refuses to forgive people for their actions. That's a real high moral ground that's a long way to fall because you're effectively, in my opinion, you're effectively saying when my shit doesn't stink, when it does, it stinks just as much as anyone else's. And that forgiveness of others is awful for me. I forgive others for me, not necessarily for the other person. It feels good. Anything that bloody feels good, you should do. There doesn't harm anyone else. It's good for people around you. You should just do it. But it's a big leveler with respect to the panic. It's a good reminder, this self-love, self-forgiveness, that we're all equal, that when you're in that boardroom, there's no one in there that's better than you. There's no one in there that probably is even judging you. Sorry, Chris. Sorry, you go. No, no, no. Here's another good, good takeaway that any sufferers listening just needs to know that in all my years of suffering, even my friends had no idea I was suffering. I was panicking at the time. And in all my years of study and research under trainers and my last 11 years of helping other people, nobody really knows when people are having difficulty. For many reasons. One reason is because we're all just too wrapped up in our own stuff. So people don't even realise when people are under, having difficulty in their boardroom. No one knows. No one knew that I was having difficulty. And I know that because I went back and I spoke with colleagues. They said we had no fucking idea that was going on. You look normal. You look almost cocky. And that was part of a byproduct. But that's for people that suffer from social anxiety or social phobia. It's the fear of the sensations, but it's also the fear of being embarrassed. That's just another level of difficulty, having this fear of being embarrassed. But the takeaway is you're not as important as you think you are. You're not as important as you think you are. And no one really knows because we're all just tied up in our own thing and we all act differently anyway. And so how to deal with this fear of being embarrassed is through self-love, building up self-love, and gratitude and acceptance for yourself, and being prepared to be embarrassed. Being okay with not being okay, being prepared to get out there, and if it turns to shit, I'm going to start practising if I can not give a fuck. And you start doing that and you start turning the tables. But ultimately, people don't really know what's going on. We think we're too important. Well, this is part of... I don't want to sort of go on to a parallel narrative here, but I've got my ideas of why so many people are screwed up in society. I don't think it's accidental. I think if it's all part of an agenda by the ruling elite sociopaths that have controlled the whole goddamn show since the days of Babylon, right? Control the money system, control the mainstream media, control everything. I think one of the things they're good at doing is getting you to focus on your identity as an individual as opposed to understanding that we are, whether we like it or not, part of something much bigger. And this is where it gets clever. So these carbon molecules that people like to call Chris's rule, but which in actual fact are just carbon molecules held together at a vibrating frequency, I'm actually no different to a book if you really want to get them. Analytical. And as such, I can dismiss a lot of day-to-day things like panic because I know that this is just an illusion. I'm trying to talk it without sounding utterly confusing, but I know that I'm a part of the universe first primarily and that this universe has been here since time immemorial and it's going to be here to infinity. So so are these molecules. And by reminding myself that I'm part of the universe first, secondly, I just happen to be formed like this. You know, when I die next week, suddenly these molecules, they'll be different stuff. This molecule will be up flying in a bird. This molecule will be running down a river. The molecules in my foot might be floating in the sea. Molecules in my heart might be reforming as a tree or as a carrot in someone's vegetable patch, right? This is it. You are this beautiful thing called the universe, which is a crazy experiment. I don't really care to even want to understand or I kind of know I'm never going to understand it and I'm happy with that. And when you take yourself out of yourself like that, there's a lot less stress on trying to be bloody perfect. Right on. You know, who the hell cares about... You get one life in this form just bloody enjoy it and if people want to be idiots, well it's just they're not very far on their journey, are they? They've got some learning to do to become well-rounded people. You know, in an attitude like that, like seeing yourself in a bigger picture, actually is a really good tool to expand your awareness in situations. It is actually a really good tool to start building up your awareness exactly the way you've described it. And then also, you know, in the words of the great George Carlin, you know, not giving a shit. You can take what I've just said out of context, but man, that is the best advice you can start practising. But the thing is, your attitude, my attitude of not giving a shit, it's powerful that you've got to be prepared day in, day out practising that. Some sufferers are really good at giving it a go for a couple of days and then allow habits to creep back in. Because creatures of habit, because habits don't like dying, they won't just roll over, they'll keep coming back. And it can be really tough for sufferers to change their behaviour and change their attitude. It's not impossible, but they've got to be prepared. And this is another takeaway. You've got to be prepared to practise and practise a new attitude. And it's going to be tough. It's always difficult at the start. Anything that you try and do for a start at the start, it's going to be difficult. You go on a diet for the first two to three weeks. It's fucking hell. Everywhere you look, there's a chicken walking pass, you know, chicken wings walking pass. Everything smells like food. But after three weeks, if you were just to keep, to just stick to it, shit gets easier and easier. Going and training at a gym for the first two to three weeks a month, it's tough, but eventually you start forming the habit. And this is my takeaway. You know, the advice that Chris has given in this whole expansive awareness that you're part of a bigger thing rather than this little person that everyone's looking at and fucking judging, which never happens. To be able to expand your awareness to the universe, to be able to adopt an attitude like who gives a shit and develop self-love and acceptance, it takes repetition and practise. And if sufferers are willing to fucking put in the work, then they'll get the rewards. Maori, we have a little saying, do the mahi. Mahi is mahi for work. And that's, you know, do the mahi, get the treats. If you do the work, you get the treats. But it's trying to get sufferers up to the starting, you know, up to the plate to start swinging and persistently swing. But that's what my programme does. That's what I do, is I give them the roadmap and the programme to do that shit. So, Sean, to finish off, how can people access your services or your skills and where can they find your book? I'll just reach out to me at atekpanic.co.nz. I'll put that link below our chat. Yeah, just reach out and, you know, we'll have a chat. I have a coaching programme, a personal coaching programme, a four-week coaching programme. I have, you know, obviously in my book, you can buy my book through my website. You can go on to Amazon. You can buy it online. But yeah, just reach out. Just reach out and let's start a conversation and see where you go. I've got some big, you know, some big ideas and visions of where I want my next book to go and my programmes to go and, you know, it's nothing better than helping someone who's found themselves in a pickle. I've been doing this for 10, 11 years now. I've published eight years ago and, you know, since then it's just been really humbling and rewarding, just helping people get their life back and heal themselves, you know. So, you know, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. Yeah. So, we've given, basically, we've given five practical tools. Sean has given five practical tools there that we can all implement if we're experiencing this panic business. You know, turn around, face it head on. Ultimate self-love and forgiveness. Remember, we're part of a much bigger thing. Our time in this form is very limited. So, just get on and enjoy it. Remember, probably not as important as maybe you think you are in that moment of panic and no one's judging you. And if they are, that's their issue. You know, we're really focusing on this, the anxiety, social anxiety, social phobia part of the anxiety conditions. That's really good. That's so important that no one's judging us apart from ourselves. But you need to practice being a non-judge, self-judging person. You can't just listen to me and Chris and then the next day think that shit's going to change. Nothing's going to change. You need to put in the work. You need to put in the persistent behavioural modifications or the changes. But you've got to know, you've got to know intimately what this false alarm's telling you to do because every time you cope, every time you pull out a coping strategy, like pull out your phone or sit against a wall at a cafe or walk away from the queue or cower down when people are looking at you, cross your arms or try and make yourself physiologically look smaller. Every time you do all these little bits, just reinforcing bad behaviour. You've got to know what your belief or your false alarm's telling you to do. You've got to know beforehand what you do physically to protect yourself and then all you do is you fucking don't do it. No matter what fucking happens, don't do it. But you've got to know and understand what's happening. And, Chris, in the background, you've got to understand the truth about what's going on before you can grab the courage to do what I'm telling you to do. Yes. Without belief in what we're saying, you'll run out of puff. You'll be like, OK, Sean and Chris, I'm going to try this. I'm going to try this, but until it gets too hot, when shit gets too hot, I'm out of here. And that's a recipe for disaster. So friends at home, much love to you all. Thank you so much for watching another episode of The T-Shirt Podcast. I love having this podcast. I get to chat to wonderful people like Sean and we can come up with this stuff and you'll probably guess we're not spring chickens. I'm a bit less springy than Sean, I reckon. And we have learnt some shit over the years and we're kind enough or thoughtful enough or we just understand it's only right that we give these tools to you, especially our young people, because you've got all this stuff to come and you don't want to be the person in that team meeting that sat there going, don't speak to me next. Don't ask my opinion, right, because it doesn't have to be like that. So thank you all for watching. If you could like and subscribe, that would be wonderful. I'll see you next time. Sean, thank you ever so much, mate. No problem, mate. Thank you. Privilege.