 Hello and welcome. My name is Shannon Kemp and I'm the Chief Digital Officer of Data Diversity. We'd like to thank you for joining the most recent webinar in the Data Diversity Monthly Series, Elevating Enterprise Data Literacy with Dr. Wendy Lynch. This series is held the first Thursday of every month and today, Wendy will be joined by Josh Reid, a Data Strategy, Data Literacy, Data Governance and Delivery Leader for Success Data, or for Succeed Data, and Bullwood, Data Governance Officer for Health Trio to discuss Data Governance, Data Literacy and the management of data. Just a couple of points to get us started. Due to the large number of people that attend these sessions, you will be muted during the webinar. If you'd like to chat with us or with each other, we certainly encourage you to do so, and just to note, Zoom defaults the chat to send to just the panelists, but you may absolutely change that to network with everyone. For questions, we will be collecting them via the Q&A section. And to find the chat and the Q&A panels, you may find those icons in the bottom of your screen to activate those features. And as always, we will send a follow-up email within two business days containing links to the slides, the recording of the session, and any additional information requested throughout the webinar. Now, let me introduce our speakers for today. With Josh, Josh helps organizations implement their data strategy and support the literacy programs. He's a trusted advisor and business partner with a contagious passion for data and consumer centricity, experienced driving small and large-scale data and digital transformations and building governance practices. After spending 10 years in the Navy, Bill has spent many years working with all aspects of data in several industries, consulting, corporate training, healthcare, telemarketing, and pharmaceuticals. His passions are data quality, analytics, and visualization, and helping organizations learn how to best leverage and manage their data. He is currently the data governance officer at HealthTrio, a software as a service provider for health insurance companies, and he's also organized several meetup groups for data governance, board games, and race relations. And let me introduce to you the speaker for our series, Dr. Wendy Lynch. Wendy is the founder of analytictranslator.com and Lynch Consulting. Over 35 years, she has converted complex analytics into business value. At heart, she is a sense maker and translator, a consultant to numerous Fortune 100 companies. Her current work focuses on the application of big data solutions in human capital management. In 2022, she was awarded the Bill Whitmer Leadership Award for her sustained contributions to the science of corporate health. As a research scientist working in the business world, Dr. Wendy Lynch has learned to straddle commercial and academic goals, translating analytic results into market success. Through this experience, she has created her book, Become an Analytic Translator, and an online course. You can find it, analytic-translator.com. And with that, I will give the floor to Wendy to start the presentation. Hello, and welcome. Thank you, Shannon, and to all of you who are joining us the first time. Welcome. For those of you who have been here before, welcome back. As Shannon said, today's topic is governance literacy and the management of data. And I have asked our panelists specifically to comment on the overlap between data literacy and data governance. I want to first start by talking about what I hear about data literacy. When people ask me about it or talk to me about it, they say, you know, we need people to be highly data literate. Because they say we need people to make data driven decisions. And I'm going to push back on that just a little bit. I would say that in our society today, every single person, pretty much, who reads a paper or looks at the internet or scrolls through any of the things that they've subscribed to, they use data, depend on data, compare data, decide what to believe, react to data, debate data, celebrate the results of data. We use data all the time. In fact, we take for granted that we can depend on many, many things in life. What the time says is the time. When it's 70 degrees, we know what that's going to feel like. We know what day Christmas is coming. We know how far a mile is. We believe when the speedometer says we're going 55, we believe what the statement says in our bank account. We can lift a five pound dumbbell and we probably shouldn't lift a 50 pound one. And we know that if somebody holds the world record in the javelin they probably threw it the farthest. That's because there are standards that we agree on. Certainly there may be exceptions, but there are standards about how far, how heavy, how hot, how cold, how fast, how slow, how much we depend on those. And because we depend on those, we're confident when we make comparisons today was colder than yesterday. My team scored more points than yours. Now there may be debates if maybe that touchdown was really on the line, the foot was out of bounds, whatever, but no. We know what the rules are. We know when a job pays more. We know that the stock price was higher because we believe the Dow has an accurate metric. We believe when we've lost weight, it might be up or down a little bit on somebody's scale versus your scale, but we believe that we can measure these things. Because those standards are collected and applied consistently. We use data all the time. Almost every person makes data driven decisions all day every day based on real time or predicted data even. It's supposed to rain on Sunday 100% chance. So let's have the picnic on Saturday. Traffic is backed up on Google. So I'm going to go a different direction. Interest rates are down. So I'm going to start looking for a new house. Plain fares cost more in the summer. So I'm going to book for the fall. There's supposed to be an eclipse on May 3. So I'm going to go see it. Because there are trusted systems and authorities. We believe for the most part, I get it meteorologists. We believe the astronomers. We believe the economists in general. Because we trust the sources and there is governance about how those data are tallied and measured and presented. And I think what we're talking about is that people also make data driven decisions from questionable sources. Apologies if any of you believe in these authorities, but we might have someone say the celebrity took ivermectin so it must be safe. Politicians says vaccines cause autism. So I'm not going to get one. But it has a five star rating. So I'm going to buy it four out of five dentists say that Colgate is better. A person has a million followers on Instagram. So I'm going to follow them to they must be great. We make data driven decisions. It's just maybe in some cases we misplace our trust, or we're not quite sure how to assess the validity of that five star rating. So I don't think we want to increase data literacy so that people can make data driven decisions. I think they make data driven decisions all the time. We want them to make effective, valid, accurate, reliable decisions. They're already using data. And because my brain works this way and I just like to think of things as analogies and trying to understand them. I would say that there's a parallel a person who has low nutritional literacy still eats. It's just, they may choose differently than someone who has high nutritional literacy. Similarly, person who has low data literacy still consumes information. They just may choose and use that information differently. So if we continue with this analogy of food and data. Somebody is making a choice about what it is they are going to consume, whether that be information or some dish. We start to realize that there are parallel responsibilities. On the one hand, there need to be governing bodies. We want to make sure that there is safety in food that consumers are protected from known dangers that there's consistency in what things are called or how they're measured or the process used in order to handle them or create them. And that there's enough transparency that we know what's in that food. Similarly, I mean, to a certain extent, you have to be responsible for what you decide to eat. And so we hope that consumers will take enough responsibility to understand the meaning of the information that they get about the food, whether that's an expiration date. Another includes red dye number five and some of you aren't old enough to know that reference, but it's if there is something dangerous in it or something that's dangerous to you personally if there's peanuts in it and you have a peanut allergy. We have a certain amount of responsibility to understand as long as that information is given to us. We probably need to know that we have a role in it. We have a role to understand what is in the packaging that tells us whether or not the salmon salad is what we need right now or the double cheeseburger is what we need right now. So if we think about this as a chain of production, we can start at the top. And governance about food starts with the collection or the sourcing of the food. Where did it come from. Was that salmon farmed or caught wild. Were those cows raised humane. And so we have to understand the collection and the sourcing at the very beginning. And then when it's transferred or transported. Who handles it. Is it protected. Did it have any stops along the way. So, what in the world, do we need to know about it between the time it was sourced, and then the time that it's actually transformed from its original format into the format that will be used by the consumer. And as we think about it, all of these steps also have to be collected in a way that we have enough information to make knowledgeable decisions about whether it's safe. And so we have to have transparency at every step of the way. If we start on the other end, that total opposite end. We're just talking about eating or reading if we're thinking about data. If we just get the results and trust them no matter what, get the food and trust that it's going to be great. And then for the most part, if we're lucky and we live somewhere where they, the governance overseas the food and for the most part, as long as you don't have something expired or damaged. It's going to be great for you. But there's a step above that, which is in what format. Are you going to get that food or that data. Do you want that salmon in a salad. Do you want the salmon grilled and into go in a wrap. Do you want a cheeseburger to go, or do you want it to eat in house in the restaurant. And what do we need to know to make some of those choices. What kinds of things do we need to understand about the ingredients in order to make that decision about how to present it. And one step back is how did you prepare it or manipulate it, whether this is analysts figuring out how to use the transform data, or whether this is the chef deciding whether to boil or fry or grill. We get to think about the steps from consumption, all the way back to the choices that we make about handling it as the consumer. And if we think of it this way, you need more literacy to understand how to prepare it to be a good chef to cook it right to be able to read the recipe and understand it then figure out how you're going to deliver it and consume it. And so how much do we want people to be just getting the food versus learning how to actually prepare the food. And so if we think about that from the top of the chain down to the bottom of the chain. Governance is pretty much involved in all of these steps to make sure that when we're going to prepare it it's prepared consistently, and that the metrics we use are the same that they use at a different restaurant down the street. And that we decide how to deliver it all of those things are in governance consumption can just be at the very bottom or we can start to ask that people become more literate and get more and more involved in making good choices further up the food chain. And also think of it as the difference between, look, I'll eat whatever you give me versus I'll select and prepare what I'm going to eat based on what I know about the ingredients and where it came from, and how well it was handled and whether it's safe. With that analogy, it helps me think about this differently, because it clearly defines what we mean by governance, and then what roles we could have as consumers of information. But again, I would argue that a person who has low literacy. Bill uses that information and probably makes data driven decisions it's just a question of whether they're using data. They can trust, or whether they're using data that they don't understand, because they haven't learned to go back in the steps to understand it. I invited Josh and Bill to join us today, and I gave them some wide parameters and asked them to think about one of these questions. In what ways, is there a disconnect between governance and literacy. Are there specific misconceptions that non data people have about governance and could literacy help with that. What can data literacy efforts learn from governance and any other lessons that they may have learned. And so, at this point, what I'll do is I'll invite Josh to give us a commentary on his perception of the overlap between governance and literacy. Hi, everybody. Can I share my screen now. Yes, please do. Right on. We'll get past the title page. I'm going to start off with the data literacy dilemma. Data literacy for me isn't necessarily the same thing for all of the people on today's call. It looks like I'm shared the wrong screen. Data literacy dilemma. Good. I'm just confused. So I was hoping to get a show of hands today in the chat. Who here is really looking to learn about data literacy. If you can put your your hand up please do with the thumbs up that would probably work. Well, we got Shannon so that's good. So the thumbs ups are starting to come in that's fantastic. That's the best one. Who here has actually already started a data literacy program. Can I get another thumbs up. It looks like we've got a bunch of people that have that are in progress already that's great. The last one is who is about to start. I haven't started yet and they're here to learn and get ready for this. Okay, so we've got a mix so it's going to be I'm going to do my best to help everybody a little bit but I'll try to stay away from as much detail as I can. Where where it might be too deep. This is probably more of a verification on whether or not you're on the right path, or even some things to think about some speed bumps to be aware of along your journey. What's clear is that the data literacy program for your specific organization isn't going to be the same in any other organization. I'm just going to jump right into it and give you my view of where I think there are overlaps. And as I go through this I'll talk about where I think there are disconnects between data governance and data literacy. What may make my view a little bit different is I see data literacy from a capability perspective as a data governance capability. I believe it's something that data governance is responsible and accountable for. If there was a hierarchy, you'd have data governance as a capability and day literacy. It's just below it, similar to how you'd have data quality below data management on the people side of this I really believe that it's a data literacy specialist in data governance organization that really drives a data literacy program but as you see in a subsequent slide. There's a whole lot of more people involved in a data literacy program than just data governance. Having someone lead it from a data governance point of view, I believe makes a whole lot of sense. But they certainly cannot succeed alone from a process perspective. So data governance is a data governance process to kick this off and I'll touch on that a little bit in a subsequent slide. But the actual learning path learning development is outside of data governance is, I really believe that fits into an HR and a manager employee kind of relationship. So as you can see I'm doing people process and technology to start off with a technology is a hard one in the space of data literacy. What what kind of technology are we talking about. Well, if we think of technology as the, the learning management system, or the subscriptions that you're using to deliver or the courses that people are going to. And in general, the technology is outside of the data governance realm that really becomes, once again an HR thing and a vendor management or possibly even a procurement thing. While standards are standards I can't say that they really come outside of data governance, except in the space of those technology delivery tools. I do believe you need to select standard learning channels and stick with them, or the program will get out of control on you from an organization perspective. I believe that data literacy should be a standing topic in your data governance council and you should have measures to show that. However, how that data is collected would be outside of data governance. So, as you complete a course, you need to submit that in an HR tool or one of the platform selected by human resources. Finally a policy. I'm in the belief that a data literacy program is something incredibly wise to make part of your data strategy. I know we haven't used that word yet today but if you think about it if you're about to make a multimillion dollar investment in your organization by modernizing your technology or your data environment, if you don't make literacy part of that engagement part of that strategy then you've missed out on the people side of this you're going to have all these wonderful new tools all this wonderful new data. But you're going to have a whole bunch of people that don't know how to use any of it. So making sure that you write data literacy into policy I think is incredibly important and depending on which kind of organization you have policy may or may not be inside your data governance program. Thanks for the thumbs up everybody. So before I move on any questions on this. Well I'll keep a monitor on the chat while I go through. Let's talk a little bit about who to involve at the center of it I really believe is your data governance data literacy lead. It's very possible that the data governance lead and the data literacy lead are the same person depending on the size of your organization. I'll start picking on senior leaders I, I believe they have a role in this, but they might not realize it. I believe that. So I would say the answer is it's not just chicken and egg, I call it just in time. So when you need training it needs to be ready for the senior leadership I think advocates and support and making them available of pardon making resources available to the program is their job. But they actually need to be taught that they don't just know it. This isn't something that is what I'll call common knowledge. So there's coaching that starts at the very beginning with senior leadership. And is that the data literacy person that has to do that or is that somebody that is more working on the data strategy overall I think that's where that that literacy comes from. I believe people managers need to support their employees through their learning journey. So make, and that means make sure they have budget make sure they have time to learn. I believe that the participants, obviously they're engaged in this whole process, change management. There's a lot of speed bumps along the way and if you don't have a change management person in place to manage communications, read the, the culture and provide guidance, and even identify gaps, because of other meetings that they're in I believe that to be a pretty big gap. And a lot of people don't see change management as part of data literacy but my goodness is that ever important. I talked about human resources a lot already. And one area that I think gets overseeing a lot is, you really need to establish a community practice that includes subject area mentors. Sometimes the participants want help with a very specific problem in their education to date doesn't help. It's a very business specific problem that you're not going to find help with in a in a course. So making those mentors available are very important. I promise to talk about how we make this work. My animations aren't quite as fancy as the last slide. First off, I think an organization needs to understand that there really is a need so going back to the data strategy hey we're going to have all of this cool new stuff how do we make sure we know how to use it. Data literacy component to the data strategy scope. And assign the work to the data governance organization for execution, because it is overall their job to bring the right people together, manage the culture change and build a data literate organization. And where there are gaps I believe it really comes down to layering in HR layering in technology and layering in our change management folks. My key takeaways for today. It's more than just people process and technology. It's an individual and an organizational skill set and that's really important. You have to measure both from an, from an employee's perspective the participants. They're really under a microscope as they go through a data literacy program. It's really hard to execute this. Learn something new and then be expected to perform the pressure really is on and just like data governance if I call it a similarity. It's not just a project it's a culture shift and it's to journey. What makes this difficult, similar to data governance is there isn't one way to do this you have to understand. What is the problem that your organization has to solve for your kind of data literacy problem, going right back to my first page on my data literacy isn't your data literacy. That's it for me. Thank you, Josh. This is when you keep a quick question for you. When you're talking about literacy. In the analogy that I built where you just eat the food versus figure out how to put all the food together versus actually do some of the preparation. Which is reading the data versus understanding how to put it into a report or a graphic or understand a table versus actually do some even basic analysis. When you talk about literacy, which of those levels are you thinking about. Or is it all of them. It's all of them. It comes down to the problem that you're trying to solve for me. I think a lot of organizations need to solve all of those problems. But one might be more important for the other in the moment. The problem is seeing the forest for the trees and making sure you have a real conversation on. Do we need to teach people how to find the data that they need to teach people how to understand the data that they have. Or do we need to teach people how to analyze data or use a business intelligence tool or interpret data quality, whatever it might be. What I love is is where you were where you are thinking is that it may be it may be situation specific, but it's all of these levels. Yep. Okay. Well, we have a bunch of questions that we will get to but right now I'm going to invite Bill to share his perspective from his experience, working in both data literacy and data governance. All right, hopefully you're seeing my screen. Let's see. Let's see if I can see my screen. It's hidden by all the other things. All right. So happy to be here. Thanks Josh and Wendy for kicking it off and sharing what you shared. I'm going to share from a perspective of starting off from ground zero with a data governance program and a data literacy program. So I was working for a company called online insight and recognizing that we needed to use. We're having problems with data. I wanted to address the problem systematically so I thought hey let's do a data governance program. So I started learning about data governance and gearing up to help our, my boss and the owner of our company, which was a small company with about 15 employees to understand the importance of data governance. As I was gearing up to do that we were purchased by a company that was about 10 times the size of us and when we were purchased by them, they already had some data governance in place. So I was very excited about that so they had a board of directors they had financial backing. They were much more structured and formal. And so when they purchased us, they had a data governance charter they had a data governance committee with two co chairs, they had a CEO who stated that data governance was important because they gave an all hands meeting to say hey welcome to the family and here are our goals for the next year. So that goal for 2022 was to improve data governance so I said, cool, I don't need to make the argument now I can try to plug into this process and and I was plugged into it. We established a data governance team of myself, my boss and one of the data engineers who was very interested. And I became another co chair of that data governance committee, and the data governance efforts were largely driven by the fact that we had gone through a high trust certification. So, with high trust, the kind of idea was data governance is good. Let's do one. So, my title was changed to data governance officer so I kind of had that responsibility I was added to the data governance committee like I said. And here's a part that's in bold because we'll come back to the impact of this later I was moved to the data technologies team in the other company, which was within it. So my first responsibility was to create a roadmap for 2022 for data governance. So, as this is happening. We're kind of in 2022 while I'm doing this. And so they sent me to attend the DJI Q conference in San Diego in June of 2022 highly recommended chance to go there if you, you have an opportunity to go there I learned a lot of stuff. So, I was asked to make this roadmap. And this is the first copy of the roadmap, very pretty, you know, has some nice lines and channels in it. And you can see where we put the data literacy plan. The top line there is just kind of overall data governance. And within that there was the idea of the foundation I wanted to revisit the charter and make sure the charter was accurate, create a communication plan. And anyone with experience in creating a data governance program from scratch probably looks at this and goes Wow, this is overly ambitious. And that's what I would say is, you know, I was naive at the time and said oh sure we can accomplish all this. We already have an infrastructure in place we have a committee we have a charter we have a CEO that's you know saying how important it is so we can get this stuff off the ground. So I wanted to focus on all these different areas. And understand from the areas there you can see the asterisks on some of them that will or may need tools or services so as recognizing that with a small group of people trying to do this just a team of three, that we may need to leverage tools to help us do things more effectively and more efficiently. If we're trying to do data discovery by hand by writing sequel queries and things like that. That's going to be less efficient than a tool that's made to do that, for example. So I have that little picture in the upper right of the little boy with the airplane, because it was very much like trying to build the airplane as you're flying it. So, you know, we're kind of cobbling this together and trying to figure out things and figure out definitions. And I like how Josh pointed out that data literacy isn't data literacy. I often liken data governance to the Wild West and data literacy to the Wild Wild West, because if you ask six people what the definition of data governance is you'll get six different answers. But if you ask six people what the definition of data literacy is, you'll probably get 10 or 12 answers. It's less well defined. So that's our plan for 2022. And it was a year of transition, there was a lot of stuff that we did get started but there were things that we tried and that ended up stopping so there were fits and starts and, you know, it was hard to say that we made a lot of progress but you know we were trying. Here when we created a roadmap, you can see that we made five bullets, and one of those bullets was data literacy all by itself. So, what I really wanted to do was, as I'm launching a data governance program, I wanted to launch a data literacy program in parallel with that, because I didn't want to build this nice robust data governance program and get these wonderful tools, and then have people that don't know how to use those tools, or like Wendy's analogy, not know how to choose something to eat or not know how to prepare the food. I wanted to make sure that we were helping people in parallel with the efforts that we were making, especially since some of those people were the people we're going to rely on as data stewards. So data literacy took on much more prominence. And so you can see the steps that we had there we wanted to select a data literacy assessment and conduct a baseline assessment, and then based on the results of that do some targeted training. This is from my background as a trainer. It's kind of a very stock old school approach, and then conduct a year and assessment. So that was kind of what we were looking at. So then, how hard can it be to just pick an assessment. It ended up being pretty hard. There wasn't consensus that data literacy was of primary importance. So we had to revisit the plan and continue to make the argument that data literacy was important, even within our committee and our data, data governance group or team. When we did decide we evaluated five data literacy assessments and we couldn't agree on one. So I created my own. Despite how great I thought it was. What I did is I took our monthly operations reports which had some graphs and data in it that people were using, and I took examples from there and I did some analysis of it and I wrote up some questions on is there a way this could be improved or what conclusions can you draw from looking at this or is there any ambiguity or confusion in this one, and I thought it was pretty good. But that wasn't universally accepted as a good way to approach it. So instead I dropped back and I said okay I'm not going to fight this fight there are many other things to do so I'll go work on other things. So after doing that, another team member suggested hey let's do a maturity assessment. Okay, that sounds good. So we selected an assessment from oval edge, which is a local company here in Atlanta who was one of the three vendors that we had selected when we were doing tool selection. And we selected one of the tabs to focus on and I wasn't the one that drove this, you can probably guess which one it was. Since it's the one that circled there. They actually chose the data literacy tab, which I thought was wonderful and awesome. It's like oh okay it's coming back around. So data literacy became the one that we started focusing on. This is an example. This is the tab in the assessment and the questions that it has. So what we decided to do was send this out to the members of the data governance committee, because the data governance committee meetings previously had been kind of reporting what we had done in the last quarter. And that wasn't very interactive and if that's all we're going to do we could just send an email out to let him know what we've done. So I wanted to make it more interactive. So we sent this out two weeks ahead of time. We asked them to fill it out we got about half of them back we compile the results and then we went through it during that committee meeting to discuss these elements and try to figure out where we're at. Now because we had done a kind of a merger and acquisition where they acquired us. We had kind of two different approaches or two different views of what these capacities were for each of the different sides of the business. So it was a good discussion to have. And so now we have finally this baseline that we can use to move forward. And so we synthesize the results of the assessment. I've synthesized on there twice how about that. So, we want to take the results of the assessment and then look at it through the views. There were three people, Peter Aiken and his book on data literacy, john ladley, who has done some webinars and has this approach called data acumen, where he's kind of trying to rebrand data literacy, and then Wendy and her approach to analytic translators and we're trying to look at it through three different lenses and just try to come up with what's going to work best for us. Because like Josh said, different companies are going to use different approaches, and then turn it all into a plan of action. So from all that, the lessons that we learned were that having data governance deep within it has its drawbacks. So I was alluding to this earlier when I said there was that bold element. Because it's hard to have a voice or drive forward an initiative, the farther down you are the more consensus you have to build and spend time building that consensus in order to get things to move forward. So being farther up where you have more of a voice is useful. Carefully consider what executive sponsorship means because you know they always say you should have executive sponsorship and that can look like different things at different times so whether you have it or not whether you can just go to the CEO and say, Hey, CEO, I need some help getting some visibility to this. That's an important element that if you have executive sponsorship you can you can leverage. And it seems generally accepted that data governance is important data literacy less so you know anyone that I asked in our company is going to say yes data governance is important, even if they don't know exactly but it is or what it's going to do, but they'll say it's important. But when you say data literacy, you have to make more of an argument for that to say, you know, but data literacy is an essential part of data governance that the data management relies on people who are able to cook the salmon. And so improving data literacy is even less well defined than what data literacy is. And so I'm really glad to have started to have found Wendy's approach to it, where it seems like a lower bar to be able to get people that can be analytic translators seems less daunting than trying to raise everyone up to a, you know, a level of data literacy, depending on what their role is. And communicate communicate communicate. That's an important element we had to drop back and we started doing presentations at new hire employee new employee orientations about data governance. I did an all hands meeting about data governance so we're starting to get the message out about what data governance is and as we do that and kind of, you know, rattle the cage and get people involved, then we can introduce the idea of data literacy. And I think it has to be started early and in parallel with data governance efforts, or like Josh said, part of your data governance effort, because it will take time to get people to get on board and for you to figure out how you're going to apply it in your organization. That is what I had. Thank you bill. So just one quick question. What is it that you think gets in the way for the experiences that you've had where people say yes governance is important but literacy. Not sure what what is it about literacy that is difficult for people to prioritize. It's like the example that you gave where people are making decisions based on data all the time. And those people that are making bad decisions about data, don't know they're making bad decisions about data. So, I think people overestimate their ability to make decisions with data. We look at our ops report, and it has these graphs in it I think people are impressed that we have graphs in it, and I don't think they're really looking at the details and saying, you know what can I draw from this graph, or how is it ambiguous or why do they have a mixture of things on here that don't make sense to be on here. So I think that maybe a lot of it they overestimate their ability already to make decisions with data. So some of their reluctance is either an ignorance about how much they do or don't know, or that they presume they already know. So they don't need it. Is that what you're saying. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Very good. Josh, if you're still on I think you probably are. What, what about you do you think that people accept governance more than they accept literacy as a priority. As a priority. I have to think about that. I don't, I think literacy is just coming into the light. But I also think people have been doing both without without realizing it. Okay. And so, in what way are they doing literacy without knowing that they're doing it. What, what, in what form does that take. For example, with with what Bill was just talking about going with oval edge, as you start to collect your metadata. You are naturally and organically increasing your literacy just by people having access to that tool. Okay. So it even though you're just trying to find out whether people are literate just the measurement effect of somebody asking you about it gets you curious and and you learn more about it. That's right. Got it. So Shannon, have you been looking at the questions do we have some questions we can direct to Bill or Josh or me. So many great questions coming in. So, and just answer some of the most commonly asked questions just a reminder I will send a follow up email by end of day Monday for this webinar with links to the slides and links to the recording, along with anything else requested throughout. So diving in here and I'll just open it up for any of you and all of you to answer is it is a before and after individual sentiment questionnaire a good KPI for data literacy improvements. For me, I would say the after is really important for the participant. But I would add that you need that participants manager to actually also get the opportunity to provide feedback and whether or not they saw an improvement in their employee. What about you, Bill, what do you think. I think, like anything you want to quantify it as much as possible, you know, we're talking about data so we want to have data so we don't want it to be anecdotally that yes we're better at data literacy we want to try to measure it somehow, so that we can demonstrate improvement. Right. And I saw that the measure that you had about maturity really was more about the organizational structure. It felt like organizationally where certain things put in place, not necessarily the individual is that is that true. I'd say that's accurate. Yes. Okay. All right. What else have you got for us Shannon. We have a data governance program and a data governance committee but it is staffed entirely by people who have other full time jobs governance responsibilities fall under the quote unquote other duties as a sign category for everyone including the data governance council co chairs. So can you speak to managing data literacy in the context of an all volunteer governance structure and I know Josh you were you were typing some of this in the in the chat there too but I'm going to get everyone's opinion on that. And maybe I apologize for the typing I'm still learning. No good. Yeah. So for everybody to hear the answer I really think the secret sauce to that situation or any situation that governance is really three elements. You need to embed your data governance and data management outcomes in your project delivery process so as you build new as you change you are building everything into it. So from a business case perspective, hop down people need to understand and truly win over hearts and minds and and put in a role or a group of people to complete that that data governance function. Maybe often if you're struggling to get past the first two then bringing in someone from the outside who has that energy that passion and can get people excited about data governance to help hit a home run with the business case and kickstart and accelerate your program. That helps a lot just bringing somebody in from the outside for a couple of weeks just to get things going. Another thought I know you, you were officially assigned, but in the first job before you were acquired you were not necessarily as official is that true. Right. I think that, you know, Robert Siner wrote that book about non evasive data governance, and I think that's kind of the approach that's important, because just like every company is already doing data governance they just are doing it informally. And not realizing that's what they're doing. So by the same token, there are already data stewards in your organization, there are already people that are, you know, interacting with data. So it's just a matter of having them realize you know this amount of time that you're already spending is doing this job. And, you know, we work in healthcare. So every year we have to take, you know, HIPAA training and HIPAA, you know, we have to pass HIPAA tests to show that we know what it is. And it would be similar to kind of adding that to the other duties as assigned to add data literacy testing, or something like that to say, you know, this is just a half hour training or tests that you need to take just to see what level you're at. So I think integrating it in small chunks may be helpful. That's a really great answer. I like that. What else have we got Shannon. Yeah, anything. When do you want to add to that. No, I think these two gentlemen have far more experience in governance than I do. Well, so is data literacy a useful label? Do we really want to tell the business folks we are trying to attract that they are illiterate? I will take that one. I think it's a horrible label. And I don't think it's the appropriate one in discussions with the people we are trying to attract. I don't know that we can get away from that term when it comes to discussing the overarching efforts that companies are making, but I am not certain at all that we ought to be using that word. And so, however, we want to do it, it should probably have a positive spin on it. And we can talk about people being good consumers of information and getting better at those things. And I think that going on the positive side would be much better than the literacy does have just a really tough connotation. And I just saw Maria put in her suggestion in the chat data awareness. There's there's so many good terms that we could have awareness and safety and there's a whole variety of things depending on what industry you're in to make parallels with it. Data engagement Heather just mentioned and Heather was our presenter last time when it came to assessment. Yeah, even data mastery doesn't have that negative connotation if you're not a master you're like oh okay I'm not a master but I can become one. And I, it's similar to data governance. I try not to put a name on it. So if we're doing data governance, I'll pardon me data quality for example I'll ask the workgroup that I've been given. Okay, who who here's done data governance before one out of five people might might say that they have said okay well I'll do a quick presentation to give you an introduction to data governance and then we'll get things going from there. I'm not using the concept of the literacy at all. I'm going to see. But I'm not calling it out. Yes. And I just saw a suggestion data Mavericks, everybody wants to be a Maverick. Data partners, those are all really good words but yes I agree with that question, I think literacy is a tough one. I love it so there's a question here a request for the all the books that mentioned in the presentation and we'll get that in the follow up email get those from you all. And so, but, and we've got just few minutes left here so in three minutes of being get everybody's elevator pitch here I see data letter CS a component or pillar of data governance. So why are we separating them. I do think that they're it can, if I can describe it in terms of the analogy that I used. I think they are separate, but very connected responsibilities. And when we are talking about the consumers getting better and better at understanding it. It's not that they can't use it without understanding it, but it is a much more comprehensive and thoughtful and appropriate kind of use when they are able to understand it. But I think that some of the governance has to be centralized with people who do it day in and day out. But I would love to hear, Bill, what do you think. That's a good question. I think it depends on who you're focusing on who your audience is. And who's in charge of it like Josh said it may be the same person in charge of both data governance and data literacy. But maybe your organization's big enough to have someone who can spearhead data literacy efforts. So then you might want to separate them more. And I'll, I'll kind of take the point that we will be delivered earlier in the end of discussion. They're measured differently. Data governance has different metrics than data data literacy. You can't use the same metric for each. So that's why technically I separate them. And my view is data governance is on top and data literacy is a part of data governance or component of it. Yeah, and I don't think I don't think we're disagreeing that it is a key component. Yeah. I do think that they are separate in terms of, of who they're directed toward. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, makes a lot of sense and that brings us right to the top of the hour. Well, Wendy, thank you so much as always. And Bill and Josh, thank you so much for joining us this month really appreciate it. Thank you for the insights. Glad, glad to be here. Thank you as always. Well, thank you guys and thanks to all of our attendees for being so engaged in everything we do. We just love it. Thank you for all the comments and chats and throughout. And just again a reminder I will send a follow up email by end of day Monday with links to the slides and links to the recording of the webinar along with the books that were mentioned so thanks y'all. Have a great day. Thank you. Thank you.