 I'm in the very happy position to have with me Dr. Elisa Granato, molecular microbiologist and the first ever FEMS early career microbiologist awardee. I have so many things that I want to ask you today, but I think let's start simple a few questions to get to know you perhaps. Where are you currently based and what is it like being a scientist there? Yeah, so I'm currently based at the University of Oxford and I'm a joint member of two different departments at Oxford. So one is the Department of Zoology and one is the Department of Biochemistry. And yeah, being a scientist at Oxford is really it's quite amazing. It's a very beautiful city. It's a very old city. There's a lot of really old colleges and many different departments. Also, they're very like physically close to each other, which is great because you can pretty much walk or cycle everywhere, which is always a lot of fun because it's not unusual to like see students or scientists walking around town or cycling around town with their samples. So it feels like a place that's very infused with science and with students. And I really enjoy that. And yeah, I'm also very lucky to be surrounded by very supportive people, both in and outside of my group. So it feels like a very kind of warm working environment overall. So, yeah. So can you tell us a little bit about the stage of Korea? And so our listeners know what you're doing. Sure. Yeah. So I guess you could call me a senior postdoc at this point, which always makes me feel very old when I say that, but I guess it's true. So I did my PhD. I finished my PhD in 2017, which was almost four years ago. And so I did my PhD in Switzerland, and that took like four and a half years or so. And then after that, I moved to the UK to do my first postdoc. And that took roughly three years. During the time I worked with a group here at Oxford with Professor Kevin Foster. And then now I recently got a fellowship to kind of develop my own more independent research, and I just started that. So that's kind of where I'm at at that transition point between kind of the first postdoc where you gain more independence, but you're still kind of working really closely with API. And now I'm transitioning into that phase where I'm kind of doing my own thing. And yeah, that's where I'm at. Yeah, I mean, I would like to wish you good luck in that. I know it's a very important stage of your career. So it's also very scary, but that's normal. I mean, that's what I keep hearing from other people. It's like, yeah, you can rely kind of less on the guidance of other people. You have to do you have to take more responsibility about, you know, with respect to your own project and this kind of stuff. So yeah, yeah. Do you think this is kind of the hardest challenge so far that you had in your career, I don't know. It's like every stage of your career has its own set of challenges. So I don't know if that's necessarily the hardest. Like doing your PhD can be a huge challenge during your first postdoc can be a huge challenge. Like being an undergrad has its own huge challenges. So it's just that the nature of these challenges change over time. Right. So in your PhD, the biggest challenge is usually just like getting used to the process of being a scientist, which usually means getting used to feeling very stupid all the time. You know, making mistakes all the time, failing pretty much at everything beginning. And that's totally normal, but that can be like mentally a huge challenge. And it is for a lot of people and it certainly was for me. So you have to like usually what happens during your PhDs that you kind of over time get used to this, you know, process of just repeatedly failing at things and realizing, hey, this is normal. And then as a postdoc, the biggest challenge is usually like, OK, now I have more independence, right, which is great. You usually have more freedom to pursue your own things, maybe. But that can also be kind of scary. Usually people tend to have more guidance in your PhD. So maybe the idea came from your PI and then you're in quotes, kind of only executing it. And that can be great in terms of structure, you know, you know what you're going to do. And then as a postdoc, you usually have more freedom. So it's kind of like gaining a set of skills that allows you to come up with your own ideas and come up with your own experiments and this kind of stuff. So it's always a great learning experience. But that can also be a challenge, of course. Every learning experience starts as a scary challenge. And so where I'm at now is basically the next level of independence, right? Like, now it's OK. You have to write your you have to come up with your own ideas for a grant. You know, and that's what I did. And of course, you still get help from other people, but it's still kind of your own brain baby, what I like to call it. And then if you're lucky, you get money to pursue that project and or to pursue those questions. And then it's all on you, right? So now everyone's looking at you like, OK, so this was your own idea. You're going to do it on your own. How is that going? So that's kind of the challenge right now to deal with that kind of pressure and to yeah, kind of find my own niche, I guess, now that I'm getting more independence. I mean, going a bit lighter mood now because I think I gave you kind of a hard question to start. So what is your daily routine? How do you start your day? How do I start my day? I mean, usually. Usually I oversleep. I try to get up early, but I tend to like sleep in a little bit. Then I actually I try to be pretty organized with my day. So usually I have an idea of what I'm going to do. Let's say I go to the lab in the morning so I know when I need to show up, I do maybe start an experiment. Then I usually have lunch at the lab, not in the lab, but like in the building. And then, yeah, it kind of depends. Like some days I'm in the lab pretty much all day. Some days I'm just doing home office and analyzing things. Some days it's a mixture of that. Some days I maybe give a talk in the morning, then I go to the lab in the afternoon. That's also a degree of freedom that I really enjoy. So actually, there's I guess the answer should have been there's no such thing as an average daily routine because every day is different. And yeah, so sometimes it's also like, OK, I'm just not feeling well. I'm going to take the morning off, you know, but then I'm going to come in Saturday morning or whatever to make up for that. So I really, really enjoy just kind of going with the flow, seeing what I feel like, you know, doing tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. And then, yeah, then kind of structuring my day around that. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. And I think you are active on Twitter mostly, right? I guess I am. So Elisa has a Twitter account. If anyone of you wants to follow her and her journey, your account is at Prokaryota, right? Correct. Yes. Nice. So, yeah, if you want to follow her journey at Prokaryota on Twitter, if you do that, Elisa is a cat lover. So often the spotlight goes to her adorable cats in Oxford. I have two cats. I adopted them when I lived in Switzerland. So this was a while ago, like five or six years ago. I have a female and a male. Their mother and son, actually, which is a funny story, because when I adopted them, there was a bit of a mix up because it was a mom, dad, and then three kittens situation. And I was actually interested in getting the mom and the dad. So a male and a female, but they all look completely the same. They're all completely gray. And then they ended up giving me a mother and one of her sons. And then we realized, like weeks after the adoption took place, they called me like, hey, we gave you the wrong cat. Anyway, now it's too late, I guess. OK, it's fine. It's just sort of unusual because usually a mom and there's a mom and son wouldn't get along necessarily, but they they're totally fine. So it worked out well. Anyway, yes. So the female is, how old is she now? Eleven and her son is a year younger. So he's 10. So they're getting kind of old right now, actually. Almost officially classified as senior cats, but I'm hoping they'll stick around for a while longer. I mean, the breed can can get up to 18 years old, I think, on average. So hoping, hoping that can get many more, many more wonderful years with them. Yeah. And having having those cats has been great, honestly. I was like, I live alone and it's really nice to have, you know, just someone to kind of interact with, you know, at the end of the day, even if it's just an animal, if they don't talk back. But it's really nice to just have company, you know, and yeah, they've also been really great for my mental health because being a scientist can be very stressful at times. And it's really nice to have that, you know, kind of support from a companion animal. And yeah. And of course, they're also just funny, silly. They make me laugh every day. And that's where it all started. They're just posting, you know, silly, silly pictures of them on Twitter because I realized like, hey, maybe other people will enjoy the silliness as well. And yeah, that's when it kind of kind of took off. And it's always, it always brings me a lot of joy when people say that they enjoy my cat pictures because I'm like, yeah. They, yeah, they bring me so much happiness that it's always great to like be able to share that a little bit. And I, yeah. And I've seen you kind of moved to three or four different countries throughout your academic year, right? Yes, I've lived and worked in three countries. So I started in Germany. I was born in Munich. So I did my undergrad there. I did my bachelor's there in biology. And then I moved to Switzerland to do my master's in PhD. And that's where I adopted the cats. So they didn't have to do that first move at least. And then I moved from Switzerland to the UK after my PhD. And I was just kind of pointing that question to maybe talking about a little bit about research, the international nature of research. And, you know, as as you progress to different stages of career, you often need to switch institutions with countries. So if you have anything to share with us, it would be really nice to learn how how you experience that shift. Yeah, it's interesting because it's not only about shifting or switching countries, so to speak. And of course, that comes with a cultural shift, right? Like, I mean, language, you know, culture, social rules and this kind of stuff. But it also comes with a shift in departmental culture. So even when you move from department to department within a country, that can be a huge shift because different departments or different groups have different, you know, vibes, different levels of hierarchy or not different levels of cooperation or competition among their members. And it's really also about figuring out. I mean, first of all, making a choice of where to go, right? Figuring out what's a good vibe for you, what's a social environment that works for you in terms of how people interact with each other, how people treat with each other, what's the chemistry like, right? But after you made a choice and you decided where to go, it's all about kind of figuring out, yeah, like, what are the local rules? How do people interact with each other? How do I fit in? How can I bring my own voice to this? What can also be really useful is like, figure out what you liked at a place and then try to bring that to the next place. If they don't have that yet, you know, whatever that is, it can be like a way to do a group meeting or it can be a fun thing to do for socializing or whatever. Every place has something to offer in terms of, yeah, positive, I don't know, like strategies that work or positive interactions or something like that. And if you can remember that and then bring that to your next place, that can be a very, very positive thing. And that's also the opposite. If you were unhappy at a place, try to figure out why. And then if you move to a new place, try to maybe avoid that or learn from that or try to, you know, prevent people from making those same mistakes at your new place or like that. So it's all about learning and growing and figuring out what works and doesn't work. I mean, at this point, I've been to so many places that I have a mental list in my mind of like, things that work, things that don't work, you know, when it comes to, you know, research culture and group interactions and this kind of stuff. And that's really the upside of moving and living and a lot of places that you get a really good, comprehensive picture of what works and what doesn't work. So I'm hoping this will help me in the future when it comes to like building my own group that I've seen so many different versions of scientific departments of groups and social interactions and this kind of stuff that's probably, hopefully going to help me set up an environment that's inclusive and fun and productive, you know, and people are not too stressed, you know, people don't overwork and this kind of stuff. So yeah. Amazing. Thank you for sharing all of that. We have a lot of early career researchers who are listening. So I guess this this might be a bit comforting. Nice to hear tips from you, especially as you are you're going through that stage. So thank you for that. So, Eliza, Elisa, you're the FEMS early career microbiologist our day, the first one ever for this award, recognizing an excellent body of microbiology research, research potential and contribution to your society. First of all, I want to learn how did you feel when you first learned that you were selected for this award? Honestly, I was kind of like not in denial, but I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Like I saw the email and I thought like, oh, I don't know. Like I saw it and it didn't really register. So I kind of clicked on it, clicked away and like went on about my day for a few hours, which sounds weird, but then it kind of had to set in like, oh, wait, this actually happened. And then I went back to the email like, what? Wait, I actually got it. I don't know. Some of my brain wasn't processing it correctly the first time. But yeah, and then it was just elated. Honestly, I just kind of freaked out. I jumped up and down. I was like, unfortunately, no one was there in the lab with me at the time. So I wasn't able to like share with anyone, but I just like danced around like a maniac. And it just came as a huge surprise. Honestly, I was like, yeah, this thing happened. I mean, I know about the nominations and about the nomination and stuff, but I was 100% sure someone else was going to get it because I know so many people who are like, yeah, just so amazingly talented and brilliant. And I always feel like do way better and more impactful research. So I was honestly very surprised. But of course, it feels great to be recognized. It's a huge honor, also the fact that it's the first time this award was even given. So it feels very special. And yeah, I'm just so grateful that someone thought that my work deserves it. And of course, I'm very proud of what I'm doing and what I've achieved. But I just feel like I'm just surrounded by so many amazing and brilliant people that to be recognized in that way feels very, yeah, just feels very special. And yeah, very grateful. Again, huge congratulations from me. Thank you. From the middle of FEMS. Can you tell me a little bit about the research that helped you reach this award? Yeah, so basically the main thread, I guess, of my research interests over the last few years was bacterial interactions. So historically, I think people have sometimes assumed that bacteria are kind of these isolated cells that just kind of do their thing. Little machines, not very social, like maybe animals are. But we now know that that's very much untrue. Bacteria interact a lot. Bacteria can be super social. And basically, I was lucky to be able to work on different aspects of these bacterial interactions during my PhD and my postdoctoral work. In my PhD, I focused on cooperation. So basically how bacteria help each other, how they can play nice and achieve great things by working together. And I looked at how these things evolve over time during my PhD and also how cooperation affects virulence. So how much damage a pathogen is going to cause in the host basically by cooperating or not. So that was basically my PhD work. And then when I moved to the UK to do my postdoc, I wanted to see kind of the flip side of bacterial interactions. So I got really interested in bacteria, how bacteria compete with each other, how they kill each other. And so I worked on a project over the last few years where we looked at a very extreme competition strategy in E. coli, which is essentially cell suicidal toxin release. So some bacteria lies en masse to release anti-competitor toxins. And we were able to show that that mostly happens when bacteria experience a lethal attack by a competitor. So it's a super extreme response to an extremely lethal attack. So that was what I was working on over the last few years. And that's the project I just finished. And yeah, that's essentially the quick summary of what I did over the last few years. And this is something that you are going to continue or are you looking to kind of go into different avenues? A little bit of both. So I want to keep working on bacterial killing mechanisms because I just think it's a super exciting field. There's also a lot of new signs coming out kind of every day. It's very active, very dynamic field with a lot of young PIs too, which I think is great. So I'm hoping we can kind of push this field forward a little bit. And I want to bring in a new spin. So I've been recently really obsessed with horizontal gene transfer, which is basically bacteria kind of exchanging genes laterally with each other. So genes moving through populations. And I think that's super exciting because it also brings in this concept of kind of multi-level selection. So selection on the gene level versus selection on the bacterial level. So lots of cool evolutionary questions that can be answered by looking at this mechanism. So I want to bring together bacteria killing each other and bacteria exchanging genes horizontally. And that's actually what my fellowship is all about. So when I kind of merge these two fields, merge these two disciplines and then do cool science hopefully at the intersection between these two topics. So I want to bring killing mechanisms together with horizontal gene transfer. Let's see where that leads me. Yeah. I mean, good luck with that. I know. Thank you. And it's a bit difficult now that you say you are a bit more independent, perhaps figuring out what you really want to focus on and stuff like that. Yeah. And these things can still change too. Like there's a bunch of examples in the field where people thought they were going to do this, but then something really cool happened a year into the project and then they go into completely different directions. So it's also very important in science to always be open to the next cool thing. Because sometimes your original plan just didn't work out and that's totally fine at science. And then as long as your mind is open to like cool discoveries on the way, you can also switch directions. So who knows what I'm going to do in five years, but that's my plan for now. Yeah. I mean, you just started being at the stage. So you said senior postdoc fellow, right? Yes. This might sound a bit of a weird question, but what are the next steps that you're looking to do in your career? You mentioned having your own lab. Is that still? Yeah, I mean, that's definitely the vision. So I'm hoping that I can use those next few years where I'm still on my fellowship to kind of, yeah, carve out my own niche, get really cool results in this kind of new fields that I'm, yeah, hoping, not new field, but like a new direction that I'm hoping to get started in this fellowship. And then either apply for more permanent or assistant professor type jobs, maybe in the UK or in other countries, I'm actually open to moving to a different place in Europe. Of course, my home country is Germany and I also spend a lot of time in Switzerland. So going back to either Germany or Switzerland would be, I think, a really obvious next move to me and that'd be great if that works out, but if that doesn't work out, I'm also open to like other countries. So, and yeah, and then hopefully start my group. So that's going to be very exciting and also very terrifying. Again, like I said earlier, every step has its own challenges and things to be afraid of. But that's also the beauty, like it never gets boring. You always, I think that's really one of the upsides of this kind of career path. If you wanna call it upside, there's a challenger on every corner. And if you find ways of like sustainably getting through those challenges, it's such an amazing growing experience like in terms of personal growth. So I'm really looking forward to the challenge of having my own set of students, working with young scientists, mentoring them, helping them develop their own ideas and hopefully turn them into amazing scientists one day. And yeah, so it's going to be a huge challenge the next few years, but I'm so looking forward and I can't wait to get started. Yeah, I can feel a lot of positivity in you, Elisa. So yeah, I just hope everything turns all right, you know, with being in the lab, experiment a lot of things might not work, but I'm sure, you know, if you've been persistent, then you'll reach to a very good result. Hopefully fingers crossed, yeah. Yeah, so I've reached to the last question that I have for you today, which is again, on a positive note, I'm going back a little bit as well. So what inspired you to get into microbiology in the first place? Yeah, it's funny, because I actually kind of got into microbiology by accident initially. And I think that's actually true for a lot of people. I think it's actually quite rare, I mean, just based on my conversations with other scientists that people knew from the beginning, this is what they're going to do and that's what happened. I mean, that can happen to some people, but it didn't happen. It was not the case at all for me. So when I started my bachelor's in biology, I wanted to become a behavioral scientist. At first I thought I was going to do animal behavior. I was really into, yeah, just large animals, mammals and this kind of stuff. So my vision back then was that I was going to be a behavioral scientist. I was going to study maybe like lions and the savannah or something. So this is where I started. But then I just ended up taking this really, really good introductory course in microbiology in my bachelor's. And that completely changed my mind about everything essentially. So I immediately just fell in love with microbes and all the amazing things they can do. And then I basically said like, hey, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life period. I got so excited about microbes. And I also immediately then decided to specialize further in microbiology. So I ended up moving countries just because they had a really good master's in microbiology in Switzerland. And they didn't at the time in Germany really. So, because I was so motivated to like really get into microbiology as fast as I could. And then I also ended up doing my PhD there in Switzerland, also in microbiology. And then, yeah, I haven't looked back since. So I'm hoping I still get to work with microbes for a few more years or decades, hopefully. I mean, thank you so much for your time today, sharing all these amazing stories, tips of your feelings really with us today. It's been such an interesting discussion. Thanks for having me. This was a blast.