 Welcome to our training today on digital signatures and scanning. Thank you guys all for attending. This is Sartro. I'm working with Northwest Justice Project on LS NTAP here. And this is part of a series of different trainings to help people work remotely. We've got some other experts who are on the line here also. I've got William Guyton here helping out and doing color commentary today. And we also have Nia Pat from Northwest Justice Project. I'm talking about one of the technologies in particular. But the first thing we want to do is kind of get a little bit of sense of what individuals are using for technology. We're doing two different things here. We're doing scans and we are doing digital signatures and we're going to be starting with the scanning side. Try using that question box and tell us what you use or how you are scanning things currently. Feel free to drop in there that you are not scanning also. But we're going to kind of get an idea of the different scanning apps that individuals are using today. So we've got one person with genius scan so far. Scanner or office lens. Office lens is definitely one of the more popular ones in the community. Use your computer to email yourself a PDF. That is, that's a very common, a great tip that definitely isn't in the presentation yet. Currently scanning using PDF to email. There's a lot of that. We've got someone here using iPhone. And I'm curious what app they're using if they're just using the camera on there or other things. And I'm HP all in one scan. Several of the different printer companies have some nice scanning software also. Another genius scan. A lot of people use in their phones iPhone and Android here and then the convert to PDF. We've got not scanning and they're here to learn about that and you're definitely at the right place at this point. In scanning, we did kind of a survey of the community asked for some tips and also did some external research here of things to consider. For scanning, Microsoft lens was definitely the most popular scanning tool that we ran into. The big thing about Microsoft office lens is the ability for it to easily integrate with OneNote, OneDrive and other office items. The scanning on it is very easy. In the handout section, we actually had one of the legal services organizations from Washington State here put together a tutorial and in your control panel that tutorial is covers office lens step by step. Office lens was definitely the most popular that came up and that guide is extremely useful. It's also free to use reputable protection privacy within it directly. One of the other more popular is Google scanning but it's not the equivalent which is Google lens. Google lens does have some scanning options but it's actually set up as a much more visual program that is designed to recognize locations or other things. It's actually Google drive and Google drive on it has a very simple easy to use scanning feature. In the bottom right of it, it has a plus. You open up the camera and then there's the ability to scan directly. You crop and then you can add it and you can send it directly to Google docs. The integration is very easy. It is extremely easy to use overall and especially for individuals that are using Google drive and somewhere other products that the integration is very easy. One of the next ones that we had several suggestions on although much less than those last two was a standalone application called scan bot. The Android version is currently about $10 or I believe it was 15 for two. It is a application that just scans. The free version of it is very, very, very low featured. The full version has the ability to send it to FTPs. It has built-in automation. It has compression built in. It does work with things like box and Google drive. This was one of the more full featured kind of medium price scanning apps that has a really good reputation. The biggest issue though is definitely the cost on it. The Android cost has even been kind of a monthly subscription or a or more sorry not Android, the iPhone cost. They are strongly dedicated to your privacy, protecting your privacy. They've got a very simple policy that they do not look at any of your stuff and that's one of the things to really look at when you're checking out free apps. Google and Microsoft have very reasonable policies there. Scan bot has privacy first. A lot of the other free apps that are out there may take to your location information. They may be advertising. They may or may not data share or they may have an incomplete privacy policy. So making sure that the policy that's there is going to protect you and protect your client's data is very important. Also make sure that whatever permissions that those applications are looking for or reasonable, several of the free applications to do very basic things like email someone to scan or share it will ask you for a three or five or $10 upgrade. And by the time you do several upgrades to get the basic features you need, it's no longer anywhere near a free application. And you may be leaking more data or more information. Definitely if there's another application that you're using for scanning, check out the terms of service on it and make sure that it has the basic features from the meeting that you need. William, what are you guys using for scanning? We're using all the above. Part of what we did when we started moving Lasso to 365 Azure was we made sure that when we did our printer leasing across the program that the printers we were going to lease for the next five years had the ability to scan the SharePoint. So that's primarily back when we used to work in a physical office pre-pandemic. You'd walk up to an HP 527 and actually scan to an underscore scans folder that we set up within your private OneDrive in 365. But we've deployed some scan snaps across the program when we needed high-speed scanning. And obviously we use a lot of Adobe Lens. I've been doing Adobe Sign all morning. So it's Microsoft Lens. Well, we've been promoting Microsoft Lens in a big way because it's another way to get those particular scans into your OneDrive environment. It's especially important when you're out in clinics because you like to take as little equipment as possible setting up and tearing down clinics. So the smartphone app is really helpful at the clinic level. Yep, definitely. Molly does make a point that the one paid app that was on here is rather expensive. There are medium tier paid apps that are less expensive. All of the other apps on here, we did focus on stuff that was definitely free. So outside of apps here, we also have a few suggestions that came in that were on the hardware side of things. The Epson Workforce SE50 is a very portable individual scanner. It's very light. It hits five and a half pages per minute and is one of the smaller kind of hardware solutions that we've seen. On the home office side, we've got an example here by my brother, ADS 1200. It is on the more expensive side at the 200. It does hit a significant number of pages at 25 pages per minute here. This is definitely on the more expensive side. On the less expensive side, Canon makes some nice stuff and the Canon Scan LIDE 300 Slim is one of the less expensive for a piece of hardware if you're doing a significant amount of scanning. Hopefully you're not having to scan too much at home, but we have several jurisdictions out here in Washington that still do everything by paper and people are still sending around large stacks of paper. We're going to be moving on to section two here, which is going to take a little bit more time. It's digital signatures can paste with Microsoft Word and then convert. A lot of tech hackarounds to make something create a signature that is digital. We've got a question on what is the how do courts respond to those kind of hacks? It widely varies on different courts. Just here in Washington state, we've got courts that are 100% fine with that and then other courts that have major objections to just that hack workaround of putting it into Word and printing. Some of them have actually required a separate affidavit stating that this signature is valid assigned by the attorney or a potential witness. Our sign and sign requests someone is asking about. I'm not familiar with our sign. We will talk specifically about sign requests coming up. Okay. Jumping into the digital signature here and the first thing that we're looking at is just kind of the standards of things to look at or consider with digital signatures. This is kind of across the board for any apps that you're using. First one is authenticity and audit trail. Is there a way to prove what it is? Second thing is does it work with kind of the e-sign act here in the US? Third is how mobile friendly is the way to do it? Fourth is what are the different standards if you're starting to look at a product that specializes here. Does it have a document assembly option? Like how do you actually get it into the document that you need? And the last one which we alluded to a little bit earlier is what are the local rules and what does your state or county court need or require? It doesn't matter how good the particular product is. If the local rules don't align then that's where a lot of the challenge comes. A lot of states have been passing emergency rules. For example, Oregon just passed an emergency rule through their Supreme Court that allows signatures and it requires an authentication process so that the user confirms that they were the designer but it doesn't prescribe a particular technology. So the answer to this could be a very low tech solution as long as you've got documentation that that taking their signature and pasting them in the document is confirmed by them in some way. So having that authentication process which could be a call or an email back from them or a piece of information that they put in to the document that verifies that it was them could let a very low tech solution work. So audit and authentication. The tool that you're seeing here in the background is DocuSign. DocuSign does several things to give you kind of an audit trail to show you that the signature is authentic. They capture the IP address that something came from so you can see it was an outside and its geolocation. It creates a hash back and forth. It logs the time and date that something was signed. So it creates several trails here and also uses encryption to verify when that digital signature takes place. Going to turn it over to Ornia from Northwest Justice Project to talk a little bit about DocuSign while we're in this not just related to authentication but she's one of the individuals who uses it most over at Northwest Justice Project. Thank you for joining us today. So there's a really good question here from Monica. Is it safe to share your IP addresses on documents? It is geolocation information and can often be traced back to a general place. It is something I would consider personally identifiable information especially when combined with other pieces of information. So it may not be safe to share that. The screenshot here is of the audit screen which often comes directly after the document and it gives you a bunch of information that you can use later to verify that. One of the best practices that I've seen so far in the community is to keep that audit information separate in their case file and only bring it forward when it is actually needed by the court if authenticity is questioned and to possibly seal that if there's a reason to keep some of this information out of the public's hands or even possibly opposing party if you need to do some type of in-camera review. But yes, this information can be used to find private things out about somebody which is why I don't recommend blindly filing it with the court. So anyways my name is Naya actually and our office at NJP started using DocuSign probably a year and a half ago maybe and it was given to a short few people within offices to see if we like the program. Right away I figured out that it's extremely simple program to use. It's like three or four maybe clicks to get documents as long as your clients have email you can get them to sign. If they don't have an email account then that's obviously kind of a big deal because you have to send the signature request through email and if you're sending to a significant other and they're trying to use their spouse's email address that doesn't typically work very well either because it assigns the address and the name to the person's account. What we've seen with the courts is that they are accepting it at least in Spokane County. I've used it in Spokane County, Lincoln County, Ponderay County, Stevens County and I think a whole bunch of the other offices are able to use it as well. The one thing that they do require though is some version of an electronic signature signature declaration from the person who received it. There's an audience question. That's definitely one of the one of the more common things that some of the pre-existing local rules would require is that declaration add-on. Yeah and they used to have well the rule is a GR17 of some sort and we've modified it to say an electronic signature declaration and we say very specifically that we sent it to our client and that they sent it back to us via docusign. That way it doesn't have all of this authentication audit in the background of the record but if the court were ever to want it we would have access to it to provide to them so we don't file it with the court file. So do you use the templating option within document sign at all? I recently started using it but most often we do declarations from clients so those are unique in and of themselves. The way that you can use the templates are for maybe retainer agreements. We have a citizenship form that would be really helpful in that way. I found that having a few of those is useful but because we modify each document individually for the client I usually just upload a Word document which uploads as a PDF and then I get the best outcome that way and you can see the signature the best. I have found through docusign that sometimes if you are uploading a already scanned PDF sometimes the signatures and the boxes become very little and you can't get the signature out itself and so it's a glitch with the program. It's happened to me maybe a handful of times so it's really not a big issue but it works best with just Word documents or in the template form if you set up your templates properly. Excellent so we've got a few questions here. First would you be willing to share that declaration, the GR17 one that you've customized? Yeah I'm absolutely willing to do that I have to redact it but I can certainly show you the sample yeah. Excellent and I'm happy to post that with the materials and put it and send it out to the email list of individuals who attended this so it's available. Second one is what type of what are the basic elements of that? Of what specifically sorry? Of that declaration what does it basically say? Let me grab one out and I can see I just did one not too long ago. Because I remember in Washington State the like model language talks about like facsimiles and stuff but this is actually a very old rule that it sounds like you've got an innovative way of repurposing it to show that you're using digital signatures. Right so typically our heading is declaration regarding signature on electronic document and we put that I NIA declared a penalty of perjury that the foregoing electronic document attached to this declaration consists of however many pages it does that's complete and legible image I examined it and I received it by email on the date and then I always put said document assigned by the person via DocuSign and then I signed that. Yep any other things that may have been surprising to you in setting this up or tips that would be helpful to people that may be setting it out for the first time? Yeah so a couple of things that I learned later on because I kind of fudged my way through the program at first was one of the main things that you can do is you can set reminders within the program to send it reminders like to the client say I want a declaration signed and it's not super important to get it done that moment so like there are places within the program where you can set reminders to resend it like maybe every day or two so that the client automatically gets a reminder and it keeps popping up in their email until they send it to me. One of the other things is that if there's someone else in my office that needs it and they want and I may be leaving for the day but they still need to get it back from the client when it's signed there are people that instead of just signing there are people that can receive a copy of it once it's signed and then it would go to their email as well so then I would I always get the signed copy but then I can send it to anybody else who needs to receive the copy and then I don't have to monitor it as well so I found that that is extremely helpful and then I guess I haven't used the templates as much I'm learning them but it looks like they're extremely helpful and you could set them up for certain people so if I had like I service three different attorneys so I could set up template envelopes that have all of the required documents per attorney and then it would build those templates for me depending on who I want to use or who I need to sign and then I could have the client sign and the attorney sign all at the same time and it's it's fairly simple there you can have multiple people sign you can put the um the you can put who you want to sign first and then it goes to so and so to sign and then it goes to so and so to sign so there's a lot of different things that you can do within that program I see how that order of signatures could be very useful especially if you have parties that may have some trust issues or other things to see that it's been signed by other people already can alleviate some of those tensions yes and I've also started using it with because we're all working from home I've started doing it on some court orders with opposing counsel so then the opposing counsel is even recognizing it and signing it and sending it back to me instead of having to try to figure out how to fax it to him so it's been working out pretty well that's excellent if um if it comes out of this unfortunate situation that uh we use these collaboration tools a lot more often than faxing things I will definitely be happy about that yeah um there was definitely a question here which is does this meet the lsc requirements for program letter 16-2 electronic signatures I don't know the answer to that question but I do know that we've been authorized to use it for citizenship forms and retainer agreements and things so um that might be somebody else question William is that something that you're familiar with or can speak to it is not that's a that's a very good question okay we're we're using adobe sign for the same forms so the attestations the citizenship the retainer and we're we're building it out it's a good question to ask but we're we're building it out not only for client facing forms but also for internal forms uh for the same reason because we don't want to walk into an office and put a wet signature on anything anymore I am not an expert on 16-2 but I did read it this last week and it does specifically mention eSign and the eSign Act of 2000 which doc eSign is designed to have the basic elements of that and that is something that we've got here in the signature section but it is not something that I'm an expert in and have reviewed if there's anybody who's on the line who has please let us know but I yeah it looks like we've got a few people that say they've been using it um four years also um cost estimate on doc eSign um said anybody willing to talk about the cost related to this tool and feel free to type that into the um uh questions box as an answer um there is um a initial um like $10 uh version or so but it's extremely limited in the number of documents the uh plans that we looked at uh ranged from about $20 a piece up to thousands of dollars depending on whether there was um API integration or customization um it is definitely one of the more expensive and robust tools that is out there uh there is a more basic feature but it is definitely not the most cost efficient one that we've seen um there's somebody out here who also mentions that for individuals who use legal server um that they send attestations um and retainer agreements through the built-in signature function um in legal server um and that is one of the interesting things that there are um most of the modern case management systems will have either their own signature function um or a built-in um add-on where you can provide integration between those uh it looks like Sue also mentions there's a non-profit discount um on tech soup um and you can set up the contract by user um or by envelopes used um but it is expensive and that it works very well and they've been using it as mentioned for about two years now Laia also has a signature function built into it so we're going to hit the next thing to think about uh with these program um and this uh sign request had these tips for verifying users and this is still on the audit and authenticity thing to think about but some of the ways that you can do that is add input fields for the user and those input fields may be unique to the user um the IP address during signing is one way to help verify them although definitely keep in mind the privacy and security there um there's a difference between having that audit trail that you'll need to prove authenticity um and what you're submitting to the court um some of them create um hashed um or other um digital locks on there and give you the information um in an encoded way uh other things um some of the sign signing programs will allow individuals to upload a picture of an ID or something else to verify who it is um once again you have privacy concerns in redistributing that information but it gives you a way to prove that it was done um we've seen people use um phone numbers as a way to verify that is one of the lower tech and probably easier um to come by pieces of information but if you have a both that it was sent to their email address and that they have some verifying information for some of the rules that will definitely work on the authenticity but once again check with your local courts there uh next thing that is um well worth mentioning is um the eSign Act which is the electronic signatures um in global national commerce um it's a us act and it focuses specifically on that these signatures have the intent to be just as good as physical signatures now this is often modified by your local laws or local rules but this is the standard for um interstate commerce it is interesting that it specifically mentions that for e signatures you must get affirmative consent this is not something that they're opting out of it's something that it is very clear to the user um what you are doing so make sure that you have that check-in process the last thing that you want is to add a digital signature later and then have a um clients say no i didn't review that or i didn't see that or i didn't give affirmative consent um to it and then the act also talks about retention and keeping an audit trail directly within it i mean this is also mentioned inside of that program letter so um the there is a significant amount of information out there but these are the basics from the elect for the eSign Act in 2000 um here make sure that whatever you're using also has a um is usable on mobile phones especially for clients all of the apps that we're talking about today and we've got a few more that we're going to talk about have definitely been tested there but make sure that it works on mobile phones it saves a significant amount of time some of the older school solutions that people were using did not there was a question here about being connected to the person using legal server and signatures through legal server and i will um help make that connection happen that continue to send questions to the question the box and will continue to respond to them got another comment here which is um for elix lsc requirements um i can offer the program letter includes requirements for um association authenticity and intent to sign the intent to sign requirement for lsc includes providing an option for the signing party that they can reject the agreement immediately by sending a cancellation email or text this cancellation requirement is more than what we do in paper or wet signatures which is puzzling but we build all of this into um their use with legal server and i'm sending that whole block of text thank you so much vivian out to the whole group so they can review that excellent thank you for talking to directly to that program letter standards to look for in kind of the full functional applications um some type of encryption on there um and make sure that it is reasonable and up to date um a yes 256 encryption is there also what are the policies of the application that you're using for digital signatures so for example some of them have explicitly stated on their website who has access what is the terms of service how will employees um be able to see is is there any transfer of your actual data is your data kept encrypted on their server that type of stuff is often within their policies all the ones that we're looking at today um we've at least done a quick brilliance through those um and are highly used by the community there are a lot of little startup apps with very low price points um that may not even include that whole terms of service or there may be some gaps in it um GDPR has some of the best standards for data protection it's the general data protection regulation from the EU um and the EU also has its own equivalent of the eSign Act which is eid.as so those are things that you'll see on there GDPR more focuses on does the user have the right to then access that information or ask for it to be deleted or used it's something you see less common in some of the us apps but it is something to consider especially since california um has regulations also that are very GDPR like that went into effect this here some people have asked about compliance with HIPAA I know that adobe sign in particular and docuSign cover this directly on their websites um oh some of the smaller startup do not necessarily cover that and it's something to consider what group of standards you're going to have for your organization and then what you look at in those applications and another one that we wanted to mention that um very important is what kind of document assembly is available and if anybody is willing to speak to the document assembly that is built into their case management systems that allow for signatures um doc assemble does document assembly and integrated its own signature block it is technically free to use although you have to have a doc assemble server setup which is open source um it does take a techie to set up but it does not take a technologist to use and create those forms and to do signatures that way both docuSign and pandadoc which we will cover a little bit later have very strong api integrations and you can get in there and customize it a lot there's usually different licensing in order to access some of that stuff with docuSign there is a special tier that gives you kind of that developer access also oh there's a very good point here in the comments and the questions which is that in their state they need to be able to witness the signature for their atta station or for their declaration it sounds like so what they've done is do screen sharing via zoom so a client will jump on and then they'll see that they're doing that digital signature via that screen sharing that's happening great idea there finding ways to use technology to get through those local rules requirements is so important so a lot of different programs out or different options out there we're going to go through a few of those we've talked some already about docuSign and docuSign has one of the richest feature sets that's out there it does go well beyond just basic signatures you can have contracts and workflows with them you can do document generation they also have the ability to put in analytics so you can see what is getting signed when how those types of trends most signature programs do not have analytics or dashboarding options as part of that has anybody figured out how to witness the signing of a document via a smartphone is another question that came in is there an equivalent hack that someone can present that watching via zoom allows and it can definitely be a challenge as most of the video conferencing apps for your phone either have access to your camera and may not have access to your screen i know that the video conferencing private server that we put together based off the 50 tech tips you only had access to someone's camera and not their screen on phone and being able to share what's on somebody's screen would definitely help definitely looking for other suggestions there if anybody can help with this question about watching it on smartphones without having like two smartphones like someone signing it on their smartphone and another one broadcasting what is going on to someone to see it panda doc has anybody here in the audience used it i know it's been one of the most popular for people just starting out it is one of the leaders in the field and they created the unlimited documents and e signatures as part of their donations via covid response it does have some api options that are in in there i have not played with them but if anybody else who has experience please help us with a little more of a review here i did use it and it was easy to use oh there's a there's a good answer here to our previous question over how to see that someone signed it via smartphone smartphones will have a video record option on some of the apps that allow you to record movements on your phone or even cast that so you could have them record that and then send it back to you in an email so you see that it's going on and the questions that people are asking here i definitely also recommend asking to the ls ntap listserv ls ntap.org has a link on the front page so you can become a member of the google group there's about 700 people from the legal services community that have an interest in tech in some way that are there and can help answer questions most of these suggestions came from that listserv we're done to the last few minutes here so i'm going to cruise through a few other programs that are out there um sign request is extremely easy to use the features are very stripped down compared to uh panda doc or docuSign in our testing it was the quickest one to go from zero signatures to one signature they have a free option which i believe is 10 signatures per month which isn't very many but they do have very competitive pricing for and for some of the smaller plans they are more competitive than some of the other options that we've looked at here very very easy to use and they have a very privacy first perspective they use a lot of the EU privacy values and put those right up front in their marketing and their terms hello sign is a another lower cost competitor very easy to use it is owned by Dropbox now curious to see what kind of integrations we see in the future from them one of the things to think about though with hello sign is they on the lower cost plans they limit your templates severely so if you're going to be sending out a significant number of different types of contracts or forms i believe you're limited to three templates on their lower cost plan and which features signature platforms monetize or charge more for is going to be one of the bigger things you think about when choosing one oh sign sign request specifically mentions a GDPR but not HIPAA and yeah not a lot of the program or not a lot of the signature groups talk about HIPAA and those requirements docu sign and i want to say panda doc were the two that had specific things there um adobe sign um william is adobe sign what you guys are primarily using at this point we we are two weeks into a 90 day evaluation with adobe sign um went with them initially primarily because of the tide integration with 365 and azure um so it's it's we are we will know more as we roll it out to staff we're doing some trainings actually today and on thursday um we've had a couple of i know the irs put out a letter uh wanted folks to to sign stuff and for ssi and i think something else uh so we've got a couple of attorneys we're working with just to quickly spin them up because we've got some deadlines uh but we'll know more in the next couple of weeks and that'll that'll all get shared by the by the listserv has anybody had um comparison or experience with comparing um acrobat pro to adobe sign and differences to go for one or the other i have not actually compared those adobe sign was the only um adobe product that i looked at in this right there's definitely there's another good point from the comments um think about what works short term um but also what is kind of your long term strategic needs um it may be worth moving people over to a platform that has some of the longer term features now instead of having to learn two different pieces of software uh definitely something to consider is what is the long term plan versus the short term kind of emergency need people have open it up to any other questions we're down to actually almost perfectly on time um we've got about three more minutes here we've got a question here which what has been the easiest for clients with limited tech literacy to use um have there been any issues with clients um using it um here at northwest justice project or or william have you run into any um issues with uh clients not being able to navigate the software or the options that you send out to them well the the we've done some testing and and we've most of what we're sending out right now in the form uh is is very straightforward it's it's got this the yellow sticky note that says sign here um so it it's very mobile friendly uh and and and makes a whole lot of sense the data never actually gets sent like you're emailing a hyperlink which goes back and the data from a pii perspective never leaves adobe's infrastructure um we we found it very easy to use um from a client perspective and it's it's very very easy from a staff perspective because there's a plugin for all of the office products so there's a adobe sign plugin for word and for and for excel or for or for teams for that matter so whatever platform staff are working in the most uh it's it's literally a one-click drop and drag type of situation we are using the templates because we want a standardized form across the program and we've the basic adobe sign evaluation doesn't include the enterprise features that we're probably ultimately going to want such as single sign on and a document in a template document library to share across staff and those kind of things but from an ease of use perspective it's been very easy to consume both on the client side on the staff side um another question just came in which um are the disclosures um provided to um for clients to agree to a e signatures um available in Spanish and English as well um do people have standard language that they're using for those disclosures um that they would be willing to share two different questions there on kind of the same topic I will definitely follow up with some with some programs and see if they've got some language that they're willing to share I know that most of the programs that I've worked with if if something is being distributed it's um translated for primary languages for the clients there also but I will see if I can get some stock language to add to the blog post which should be out in a day or two uh the follow-up question for William which uh clarify which program seemed to be easy for clients to use um was was that adobe sign that you were talking about directly yes yes it it's currently the only e signature platform we're testing but we're probably going to test most of the ones that have been mentioned on this particular webinar um because we're you know we're looking for the the biggest bang for the buck and on the language question I did notice on my template interface that you can choose the language um it defaults to English but I need this I need to click on that drop down and see how many languages are supported on the template function definitely worth looking into I know that there um I've used docuSign in the past um and did not have any problems getting signatures on it um hello sign um I do occasionally run into a problem with the emails being caught by spam although that could be a more general issue it's just something that I've seen recently in using hello sign um I think that covers all of our questions at this point we are about two minutes after quick last announcements just a reminder that email list there's a join the email list on lsntap.org it's on the front page probably I'm just slightly and we can get people added there have been at least three very um involved discussions over e signatures in the last month the archives are available and searchable there it is a google group I just I'm looking at the recipients language options in adobe sign and it looks like about 50 different recipient languages are supported from symbolized symbolized chinese to finnish to french to german to spanish to vietnamese it looks looks pretty long excellent that's definitely another feature worth looking at when you're evaluating uh last thing just a huge thank you out there um to our um speakers today who helped out with this and helped answer questions um to northwest justice project and to lsc for funding and help making this happen and then also to all the suggestions that came in through the lsn tap email list um there are probably nearly 100 comments in the last few weeks and people directly messaging us with reviews and feedback we chose the more popular programs from what we've seen people in the community uh using for the discussion here today so thank you all so much