 Welcome everybody back to Siegel Talks here at the Martin East Siegel Theatre Center at the Graduate Center CUNY in Midtown, Manhattan. It's a slightly overcast day after some sunshine. It got cold again. But also the world has gotten colder. It has gotten darker. And in that old idea, in the old question, what bastun, what shall we do as theater artists, also as intellectuals in the world we live in. We are having this conversation today on HowlRound with one of the leading, I think, theater artists in the world and the global world on the planetary sense. We have, the billar was a free theater with us today. So thank you both for coming. Svetlana, Svetlana, Zugako and of course Nikolaj Kalizin, both of you, welcome to Siegel Talk. Thank you. Where are you now and what time is it? I'm now in Warsaw and it's 5pm. 5pm, yeah. And Nikolaj? Yeah, I'm in Washington DC at 11, 12. 12 known. So you are in Washington, not in your kind of home where you have been forced into exile into London. Let me tell you all a little bit about them. Svetlana studied graphic design, music, choreography at the Belarusian National University and she was involved with the BFT, the Belarus Free Theater in Minsk. A theater I might add, which is at least in our theaters are legendary, important, admired, and also on everybody's mind when it comes to free expression, human rights and the work what theater can do and should be doing. She has been running the operation of the Belarus Free Theater since it was forced into exile in 2011 and she formally is the production manager and also created a campaign of BFT on LGBTQI rights. It's a very important work. We think at the seagull organizing, activism, political engagement and artwork and theater work is connected. It can and should not be looked at as different works. So it is really fantastic. What you're doing, she's featured also in the book Two Women in Their Time by photographer Misha Friedman, a New York staff writer, Marsha Gessen, portraying her and Nadja Brotskaya as the power couple that is spearheading the operation and the work of that company that has done over 50 productions, if I'm right, and shown it in over 40 countries around the world. And this is quite remarkable since 2005. Awards for them include the Human Rights Prize of the French Republic, the Atlantic Council Award, but Slav Havel Prize. We have good friends with the Batslav Havel Center here in New York, the Magnitsky Prize for Courage Under Fire, the stage international awards and I'm sure many, many more. Nikolai Kalizin is the co-founding artistic director of the Belarus Free Theater and they have won many, many awards. He's a playwright, designer, educator, political campaigner and journalist. And if I understand right, he worked as a journalist, a very important paper in Belarus that got shut down to other papers he worked with shut down. And then he said, I want to continue to write one on the right for theater. And one of the quotes I read was, he said, you know, an article in New Sattel has a life of a week or two. If you're lucky, you write something for this theater, it stays, there's something different. He also owned a contemporary art gallery in Minsk, maybe the only one and was part of major exhibitions around the world. So this idea would art, visual art, contemporary arts theater that we have to redo it. They also connected, he connected with journalists in a way like Remini Protocol that often says we are, you know, citizens, citizen journalists, we are architects, urban planners and we also do theater and performances. He served time in prison for his involvement in political campaigns and was recognized as a prisoner of consciousness by Amnesty International. The most celebrated, most well known, shown of BFT, most of you know what generation genes was created by him and with DJs and others has been shown 100, more than 100 times around the world. The Freedom Theater of Belarus was forced to leave with the entire company, if I understand right, all 20 members. Last December, they fled in the middle of the night in New York City, hiding under blankets, under false names. Their life was in danger and friends have been killed and went to prison. Nikolai is already, I think, since 2011, I think, in London. So please excuse my very long introduction. This is a place for listening. We feel like radical listening. So even so, it doesn't sound like in the beginning, now we come over to it. And I would like to start perhaps with you, Mr. Atlanta. What is going through your mind at the moment? So my, of everything. Well, we just finished our Doctor of Europe in London, which was very, just fantastically, I think, so we did it in Barbican, the biggest stage in London. And now I am in Warsaw, grabbing some of the props and moving back to London to play our different show. Daniela maybe can help me with translation. What is the name in English? So the title of the show is How Man Had a Speaking Sparrow. Thank you. Yeah, so, yeah, we, and what else we will do in a few next weeks, creating a new show, working on a new show. Yeah, and thinking how can we, shall we based on how all this now can work with us, because we unfortunately couldn't go back to Belarus. And now we couldn't stay in Warsaw because of the refugee crisis crisis here. So it's a big question now, but a lot of work and that's everything in my mind right now. Yeah, it is quite something. We hear a little bit of a feedback or a radio or television program. I don't know, Daniela maybe it's on your part. Nikolai, thank you for joining. Nikolai, you are a theater artist, you're a journalist, you're a writer. Nikolai, thank you for joining. You're a writer, you're a journalist, you're a creator. What do you think about the world, what is happening and what is happening to you? Amir, I think that we, those who understood what was going to happen, we didn't reach the world, we all, we all couldn't explain what was going to happen. We tried, but our strength was not enough, and now it's happening. All of us, the thinking people, the people who understood what will happen, we try to scream and shout and let the world know of the dangers awaiting, but unfortunately we ultimately failed in our mission. I think that we should somehow collectively separate this fault, because now the conversation is not about the fault of Putin, but about the fault of us, that we didn't stop this Putin. But I think at this point we should all share the collective blame, because you can't just see that it's all Putin's fault, it is also our fault for letting Putin exist and letting Putin do what he is doing. On the other hand, now it's time for creators, for those who are engaged in art, soil for reflexes, for thinking, for new productions, a huge number. But I'm very much afraid that the world will once again not use this in the right way. I was shocked when, after years of lockdown, when the theatres once again opened in the UK, we all of a sudden saw the same shows that were there before. There was not a single new show that reflected on the years that we've spent more or less inside. We all of a sudden just returned to the same jolly musicals that we are so used to seeing on the West End. Yeah, I think this is also true for New York where you have been at the great public theatre and where you will go back. By the way, I think when you were forced out of your home in Belarus, it was perhaps noticed even more than the occupation, you know, and illegal declaration of war of Russia, people came out for you and they were here. So you are in the minds of everybody. You have been interrogated, both of you have been in prison, friends of you have been killed and posted as suicides. You have experienced what free speech means, what free artistic expression really means. All, if I understood, all theatres in Belarus are state owned. All directors, creative directors are appointed by the Ministry of Culture. Everything is censored. We can imagine what you see there. And I saw your theatre, that beautiful, small kind of old fashioned home in the middle of your concrete buildings. You say your work is not put a little, performances are not put a little, there's no politics in play. Explain us a little bit what that means. From Svetlana Nikolay? Nikolay. Nikolay, when all this started to happen because of how many of you people know in New York, how you used to perform in public and come back again, people have always come out for you and will come out. And you yourself have the experience of how much free speech is worth. Both of you were in prison, your friends have been killed, you have been committed to suicide. And I saw your beautiful, small building in Minsk, in the middle of all these concrete buildings, where there was your theatre, which, unlike all other theatres, was not appointed by the Ministry of Culture, the director, he was not legal. Can you talk a little bit about this existence and how much of your experience in this film? Well, I will start with the paradox of the fact that we have not experienced discomfort, working in a small, not suitable room. Because unlike the state theatres, we were able to decide what we want to talk about ourselves, and we talked about the topics that mattered to us, for us, essentially. And this gives a lot of strength. And while you may not be at all recognized in your own home country, it's very endearing when a lot of great stages and companies and festivals all around the world invite you to perform the work that you've been creating essentially for yourself. In the country that doesn't allow it. Well, we always knew the main thing, that we should talk about what worries us, and then the viewer, which doesn't matter in any country, he will be exactly the same with us, thinking about what worries him. Where the show is being performed will simultaneously think about what bothers them. It's a rather difficult path, because, as a rule, the foundations, the growth, the organizations that want to finance, they want to finance a completely safe industry. And you are actually being told quite openly that I'm sorry, but you do politics, so it's a no from us. But now we've come to this moment in time when politics is absolutely everywhere. In this contemporary world, I cannot tell you what is not politics anymore. Because the war makes us position ourselves on one side of the barricades one way or another, making us and forcing us to choose. It's an interesting time, very artistically interesting time, but it is just as dangerous for literally everyone. And now it doesn't matter whether or not you work in a grand building, or a tiny garage. Because if you're talking about something important, your voice is straight away magnified up to a hundredfold. When we released Dogs of Europe in London, we first noticed that it was fully sold out. And how all the reviewers gave exactly the same rating of four stars. And I completely understand why. Only financial times gave five stars, but apart from that everyone else gave four. And I realized that four, because until now it's not clear how to express, through what system of criteria and ratings, you need to express your opinion. And I understood why four, because it's not yet understandable how and through which criteria do you show your personal opinion on the greater subject. It's an incredible time, a time of transition and change, existential threat of dying, of the time of Thanatos, what we are experiencing. You have to reorganize in a higher company, 20 people left to continue to create, what does it mean for you to create the space for art, for theater, why do you do it? Why is theater work a reaction instead of saying I'm doing journalism, I joined the army, I become a nurse. What is your motivation, what motivates you, what do you believe in? Well, yeah, I'm kind of working with this company for 17 years, but it's not work because it's the whole my life and the people who are in the theater. We're just a family, we do a lot together. We create together, we smile together, laughing, crying together. We go through very difficult situations a lot of time. So it's our family, it's not kind of just work where you came and do something and then you have a different life. No, it's not how it works for me. So of course it was absolutely important to be together and continue to work. It doesn't matter. Well, all the time we talk that Belarus free theater is more than theater because we do not only theater, we do a lot of campaigns and activities. And yeah, Belarus free theater, it's not the space, not the venue, not like building, you know, it's people who do it. And no matter where we are as soon we together and we have, well, we alive. So let's continue to be alive and moving forward and try to change somehow situation, even if it's hard, but well, it doesn't matter. Well, you still have to continue to do what you want to do, you know. And that's of course, so it was not a choice. We move everyone, we'll continue to work on it. It was not kind of choice because of course we, if we have a chance to continue to do, we will do it no matter where. Yeah, so yeah, yeah, it was not easy, but we did it. Everyone in safe now, not in Belarus, not in Ukraine because part of us was going from Belarus to Ukraine to Kiev with families and then because of war, the families have to run away. And but now finally everyone in safe. And I would just for all our listeners to remind you those moments in life which you both went through where you have to make up your mind in a very short time. What is the future going to be do I say goodbye to my country I pack a backpack. Goodbye to my parents and but I work for my company we do the theater we committed to keep in a way Belarus is critical spirit alive and you made such a great contribution towards that wave of protest that went around the world. This is what theater people do is our community and proud to be a part of it in some way and we really look up to to both of you in your work and what you did. I want to say but I also read you built a wooden raft and sailed down one of the rivers of Belarus to talk to people in small villages, but there are no Internet son of thing. When did you do that. Well, just what was the year of elections 2020. Yeah, and until some of us was sitting in the jail, some of us was creating a new show on this raft. So, yeah, it was just after our release. It was premiere on this show release from the jail. So, how did that go. How was the experience. Did people listen. Yeah, it's, you know, people who don't have chance don't have even money to go to city for to theater. They don't have time because they work a lot just to survive. And then theater games to them. Like if you have no choice to go to theater, so theater will go to you, you know, and of course they was very glad to see it and they was asking when the next time you will come like when there is a opportunity again to see you and to talk with somebody from our village and not talk about some something important what we actually don't talk about here. So yeah, it was very important work. I wish I wish we will continue and I have no doubt as soon we will have chance to go back home. Definitely. That's what we will do. Okay, you as you all pointed out the time of Lukashenko will come to an end. It's just a question when and how many people will die and Nikolai. The show Docs of Europe is about a man traveling through a future Europe or Russia where we're almost all memories of Belarus have disappeared. Tell us a bit about the work. Why do you felt feel that this was a novel you wanted to base your work on. The work of the dog of Europe is about a man who is in a different time space and it exists in a space where Belarus, like Belarus, doesn't remember anything and don't know. Can you tell us why you chose this work? Why did you want to see it and in general why the dog of Europe? Probably for the first time in history, maybe even theater, we got the rights to the staging of this novel, not yet read one of its lines, it was still in the editorial. We actually got the rights to stage the novel before it was published and before the work was completed and before we've actually even read it. And we were sure that it would be an outstanding novel, as it turned out. In my opinion, this is the best novel for the last 30 years created in Belarus. And we thought it will work out, we hoped it will work out and I believe it did when I read the piece I realized is probably one of the best pieces of literature written in Belarus in the last 30 years. It's a dystopia and a dystopia that is being realized as we speak. The worst thing that is happening is that Alger wrote this novel in 2017, now it's the 22nd and these 5 years we are going straight to the novel. Everything is going as it is described in the novel, it's actually terrible because if it comes to what it came to in the novel, our normal life in the usual form will end. It's very scary because Alger, the author of the novel he wrote it back in 2018-2019 and the years since the production of this piece, we've been following the exact narrative that he has laid out. And it's really scary if we will continue the trend that is currently ongoing, there is no way of saying that this wouldn't be true. But now it looks as if it's a documentary. What are you afraid of? Where does this novel lead to? It leads to the polarization of the world and instead of Russia, part of Asia, part of Europe, including Belarus, there is a new Reich on this territory. Europe stops reading books and gradually degrading. There is a new Reich overtaking part of Ukraine, Belarus, Mongolia, China, so it goes eastwards and southwards mostly, creating a very bipolar world in which there is a huge degradation of the West. In fact, because first the European Union dissolves and then the League of Nations as an entity is degraded, part of the world that is no longer interested in literature, which poses us over the risk of what will happen to us all when there is authoritarianism and indifference. It is quite dystopian in the sense of the word. Nikolai, so your work is in that sense political and not, it is cerebral, intellectual and it is not, because also the body, the work of the body of the actor is in the center also of your company as less projection and more movement. Tell us a bit about the philosophy. What is the Belarus Free Theater's idea of theater? Tell us a little bit about the philosophy of theater. What is the philosophy of the Belarus Free Theater? The Belarus Free Theater, if we take it as a content element, is based on a football principle. If we kind of take it to the core of what the theater is, it's based on an actual football principle. American football? You mean soccer? No, soccer. Soccer, okay. And this question as well is still football. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. In the 1970s, the head of the Netherlands national football team was Renus Michels. And they developed an idea which they titled the idea of total football. We took these principles and based on them we created a principle of our theater which is based on the idea of total immersion. And we took those principles and we redeveloped them to work with our theater and now it's based on the idea of total immersion. The total football had three main principles. The first one was ensemble game and playing in pass. The second principle, quick transition from defense to offense. And the third principle is force spread throughout the field. We also added the sincerity and actuality. And now we have the principle upon which Belarus Free Theater was based. But the problem was that we couldn't find in the government system any actors that would co-exist with that principle. So we created a principle of our theater. So we created our own theater school that would prepare things, actors for our theater. And it's called Fortin Brass. And for the last 12 years we've been working to prepare. So it's based on different types of work, the to-do work, the immersion theater. The principles of the physical theater is also very important to us. And the theater that is based on how the actors perceive the work personally as human beings. Yeah, it's incredible. I think it was Pasolini who said that artists have to throw their bodies into life and connect to it and be there. Also, Svetlana, you were co-founder of Fortin Brass. The educational side of it. I understand an actress from Belarus who once was in your company will never be employed again at a state theater. Is that correct? Correct, yes. So I just want to let everybody know, you know, there are distinctions between off and off of Broadway and Broadway in New York, but this is much more serious, much more radical. So once you even participated in the workshop or that was it, you will never ever for your life work and what you're trained for perhaps at the state academies that you created a new school. As Milo Rau often says, we have to create new institutions of learning, of transferring knowledge. How much of the work of Belarus Free Theater is work for stage, for performance? How much is activism, taking action, education like this school? How percentage-wise? Well, we definitely do more stage work. We did a lot of activism before 2020 when it was possible to do any kind of activism. And then because of pressure and everyone, all of the civil society is gross, you know, during the last president elections. So people start to do activism without us. Like a lot of people was doing different type of actions on streets, but government police, KGB was very aggressive. And of course, a lot of people was ready to sit in jail, but not a lot of people was ready to die there. And yeah, the situation was very horrible. Yeah, and that's the point where people start to left country, like it just was scared to die there. Even there is no war, you kind of in the center of Europe, you do nothing wrong, you do not any kind of criminal on streets, but there is chance for you to die. So completely not safe. Yeah, in terms of theater, all of our work, all of our show have some kind of actions, campaigns, they are connected, as Daniel compared. Correlated. Correlated, thank you, with performances. So yeah, we did our best to be active and to be visible and to put questions on top in society. Yeah, it is incredible what you did. You're an example of what the leader can do, you are signaling through the flames and the idea that you can discuss something, you know, on a stage, different opinions, a dialogue, which is not allowed. I know you did a play against a death penalty is I think Belarus the only European country where a Western kind of whatever middle European death penalty exists. I think bodies are not even given back in Belarus after executions and you just even the discussing it is a radical act of resistance and shows. And is it true I understand even performing speaking in Belarusian language can put you in jail. Yeah, tell us about that. About what the language performing in or speaking in Belarusian language. Yeah, being in jail just because you speak your national language. I couldn't believe it when I read that. Well, you have to believe it is what it is. Yeah, even when you have national flag on your, I don't know, somewhere on your t-shirts or somewhere, or even some mastic with national flag in on your car. You can be arrested because of it. Yeah, or if you talk Belarusian that definitely you kind of person who are not government couldn't trust you, you know. It is incredible to even think that the government of Belarus will not trust you if you speak the language of your very own country. It's hard to put your mind around it. I, you said it earlier you said you go to London and you see old place place that happened in production nothing has changed. What goes through your mind about the idea of free expression, free speech and how Western states but also artists how they are working how they are using it what what do you think about it. You said at the very beginning that after the lockdown you go and see the same musicals, the same pieces. What happens in your head, what do you think about the freedom of expression, how Western artists may not use it and what happens in the Western world with the freedom of expression? So the sad thing is that what is happening is dogs of Europe. The artists who even want to talk about the topics that matter the poignant topics, they do not get enough response from the people who allocate the funding, their ideas are not supported. And it creates an impression that in reality all artists really want to talk about as my fair lady or book of moments. Yeah, book of moments, openly racist show in a way, you know. But I really do think it's a lie because I do believe that a lot of artists do consider what really is going on in real life and they do want to talk about it. But very often the institutions marginalize them. But if you look at the people, for example in Dobs of Europe, we just lost Daniela to what is going on in the world now and it was a complete sold out. Which means people do want to talk about it, they do want to think about it, the audience needs that. But if you look at the people, for example in Dobs of Europe, we just lost Daniela to what is going on in the world now and it was a complete sold out, which means people do want to talk about it, they do want to think about it, the audience needs that. I really do think that at the moment it is up to institutions to provide the artists and provoke the artists to allow them to express their real thoughts and feelings. And then through a discussion we can finally come to a world where things we see on stage are relevant. So you feel leadership of institutions have to face and realize what is going on in real life. So you feel leadership of institutions have to face and realize what is going on in real life. So you feel leadership of institutions have to face and realize what is going on in real life. So you feel that leadership of institutions have to change their hierarchy and they have to realize that we need to discuss to get the right answer. Yes, yes, they have to face the problem. Yes, they need to face the problem. But it is not a task to look for answers. Our goal is to ask questions. Question for both of you. What would you like to see? What should artists do? What do you feel strongly about? What kind of methods work, play, should we see? What would you like to see? What should artists do? What do you feel strongly about? What kind of methods work, play, should we see? What kind of work should we see? What should artists do? What would you like to see? It seems that nothing is matter. None of your movements, none of your art now can change the situation. But it doesn't mean it is how it looks like. It doesn't mean you have to do nothing. That's because a lot of my friends, artists now, Belarusians and Polish and Ukrainians, they're stuck in, you know, they're stuck in and kind of what the reason we will do something. No songs, no theater performances, no art at all because nothing matter, nothing could change the situation. But you have to continue to do, like express and show and shout, and you have to do it, you are artists. And that's how Natalia Kalida, every time she repeats, like this is only one of our weapon, the art, everything what we have. So we have to use it. Nikolai? I want people of art to be talking about me. I want people of art to be talking about me. I'm not Hamilton. I'm Nikolai Khalezin, I'm a Belarusian, I'm an emigrate, my country is involved in a war. I'm a European. My friends are currently dying. And I want to hear a story about me, not me as in me, but me as in every single one of us. And talk about what I want to do. If you ask me what I want to do, I want to stage an opera. We have a Belarusian opera called The Wild Hunt of the Kingstah. About a group of wealthy people who dressed up and pretended to be ghosts. Yeah, it looks like we lost Danila. So go back to the group of people who pretended to be ghosts. The group of wealthy people who pretended to be ghosts and went on this Wild Hunt and went around me ordering while in the disguise of ghosts. I want to do this with the opera singers who lost their job, whether it's because they were fired in Belarus or the theaters were bombed out in Ukraine. With the singers of the Harkov Opera Theater. The singers from the Belarusian Opera Theater who were fired for political motifs and also forced to leave. With the actors of the Belarus Free Theater who were also forced to leave and now are literally homeless. And involve a big European theater that is capable of putting on a show like this. I think it's this sort of work that has to be done now because we as artists and as people need to understand how close we all are to each other and how we will eventually all suffer together. Have you have an offer for that? Have some people offered you space for that opera? Have you already talked to someone on this topic? Have you already offered space for this opera? No, this is an idea that we came to just now and discussed for a long time and realized that it can be very significant and very uniting. And something that can really reiterate what we've been trying to say for a while. But we are willing to talk to anyone who wants to listen. Yeah, so this is anyone who is listening to us now and in theater in opera is wondering what can we do when we could do our part to invite the Belarus Freedom Theater. Who act for freedom? Acting for freedom is their motto and produce that opera with people who lost their job because perhaps of an interview because of something they said or because they participated once in a workshop with the Belarus Free Theater. It's just shocking the moment where we are and artists like Nikolai, like Natalia, Alexa, they ever needed our help. It was already horrible and catastrophic enough before. It is now, so this is a way of help to express in the mankind's contribution to the civilized world. It is hard, as someone said, the opposition of war is not freedom, it's creativity, discourse, antagonistic exchange of ideas in a civil area, on a stage in a soccer field of theater, as Nikolai said. A question for Svetlana. We also wanted to have Natalia Kaljada with us. Natalia is in Washington together now with Nikolai and she is talking to policymakers. So tell us a little bit about that part of your company, of your work. What is she doing? What is she talking about? What is that all about? I think Nikolai actually will answer better than me on this question because they are together doing one thing. Nikolai, could you tell us about what Natalia is doing and what she is doing in New York? We have our own political and social background, so we spend time to engage in public activity. So we separately from the theater have a very political background and we do a lot of political high-level advocacy, so we dedicate a good proportion of our time to that. So in the last week we saw representatives of the Congress, Senate, the White House, Foreign Ministry, Ministry of Defense. So at the moment as I'm speaking to you, Natalia is actually talking to people from Pentagon. So if people know us, if people are ready to listen to us, we ought to use our names and this power we have to help both Ukraine and our country. There is this really old Nikolai thinks possibly Latin saying that roughly translates to something like, when the guns are singing, Musa Malcha, when the guns are singing, the muses are silent. But actually what few people know is that in the original it sounded more close to when the guns are singing, the laws are silent. So we are those muses who hope to not stay silent when the guns are singing. We don't have the right to stay silent. We have a lot of friends in Ukraine, musicians, artists, poets, FCs, a lot of friends in Ukraine. We have a lot of friends in Ukraine, musicians, poets, writers. They are all fighting. And they do everything they can and we have to be the backup who will look after their backs. Because there is no one else to help them. In fighting you mean actually on the streets with guns or you mean? Yes. Yes. I know that actors from rehearsing on the stage they left and put on the uniform to defend their country in Ukraine. But that's important. We should not be silent. And it's stunning to know, I did not realize that you have a high level of consultancy, advocacy, arm, like an octopus of the Belarus Free Theatre. Maybe also a great idea to do one day a documentary play. What are you talking about in these, you know, in these sessions. And it's wonderful to know that theatre is being taken serious, that voices are listened to. And but it also I think because the Belarus Free Theatre created work, you know, people were interested in collated to it, it changed their thinking. So it does show the place of theatre in our societies, in our civic engagement. A question for both of you. Who influenced you? Who are your stars if the heaven of theatre is made up of actors, stars, directors, playwrights? Who are your guiding lights? Who do you learn from? Who do you learn from? Who is your light that inspires you? A question for both of you. The light will start. And you guys knew him. He was a supporter of your company, right? Yeah. Yeah, so if I need to choose one person, I will choose him. And who else? I don't know, for me, hard to answer. Just my friends to inspire me, my family inspire me. Belarusians who together on protests very inspire me. And people who now in Ukraine fighting, they are very inspiring, you know, like everyone who even they have chance to die, they will continue to tell the truth. These people are very inspiring. And it can be very like everyone, everyone can be, but not everyone do it, like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Nikolai. Nikolai? We were lucky enough to be friends and know a lot of truly inspiring people. Tom Stoppard, Vatslav Havel, Harald Pinter, Mick Jagger, Steven Spill, Berkett and other. And it has taught us a lot. And each individual has taught us a lot. And first of all, not kind of the theater arts, not the arts in general, but a way of conducting yourself, a way of looking at the world. All these people, they don't talk a lot, but they ask a lot of questions. And all these people, they talk to people of all ages and very often people who are considerably younger than them. And they're all socially and politically incredibly engaged. And if to talk about art, I would say I'm in a phase when I'm learning, but learning in dialogue. For example, the show Burning Doors, we created when I wanted to get into creative discussion with Jan Faber. For example, Burning Doors, a show we did and performed in New York, actually, was created in a phase when I wanted to enter a discussion with Jan Faber. And for example, the show Dog of Europe, there are elements of discussion for me, for example, for me, there are elements in it when I'm in discussion with them. These discussions, they teach much more than just any master class. These discussions that you can conduct, they teach much more than any master class you can attend. But the biggest inspiration and lessons I'm getting at the moment are from people in my own country and from Ukrainians who are currently fighting for their freedom. Within all of it there is a good level of betrayal and cowardness, but a huge level of bravery and love. Some say war brings out the very worst of mankind, also the very best of mankind and people are fighting. Also, that a company like Bilaro's Free Theatre can do their work, show their work, that their artists are respected, that they can discuss and help our society to look at problems that exist and work through them on a stage. It's personal ones and relationships and families or political ones over centuries and millennia's theatre has done that and it is now no longer possible in countries like Bilaro's and also in many parts of Russia. And we will also see how that big support that the Russian government gave to the Russian directors and their big festivals and Golden Mask, how that will turn out and what of this is also a real resistance. It's incredible to hear you, to have both of you with us. I feel very honored to share time with you, maybe as one of the last questions we're coming to. And what did you learn? What is the most important lessons you learned in these 15 years of engaged work, of work there? You were threatened by your lives where you fought for freedom of speech and artistic expression. What is the most important that you learned? The last question for you is what is the most important thing that you learned during these last years of your work, during all this time when you fought for freedom? And all of us, you don't need a lot, you need people around you, you need family, you need people who you can hug and who you can be together with. That's the main now thing for me. And of course, all these 17 years, like with all this company, we understand, doesn't matter will we have any buildings, what kind of money we will have, doesn't matter where we are, the people who are around you, who close to you, who support you. This is the most important, like everything, what I am, what I have, it's people. And again, doesn't matter where I am now, how many staff I have with me, if there is a people, all good, we can hug each other. Taking care of each other is a priority. Nikolai? Well, the main thing I probably learned is that you don't have the right to turn, that is, you have to go even despite the fact that you have your own way, despite the fact that you really want to face it. The main thing I probably learned is the importance of continuing on your path, no matter how many people want to turn you away from it. And I'm not talking just about violence, I'm also talking about other influences, about just some other things you want to trade in perhaps. And when you realize that you're continuing on your path, that you're resilient in it, you start really enjoying it. And for that you also need to learn how to be patient, because very often you want to give up and take the path of least resistance. But I doubt that will manage to sustain you as a persona, as an individual. Even though it sounds incredibly, it's full of pathos. There you go. There you go. Yeah, so this is the truth. And I said that is also what you both on your company said, just to be on the side of truth is a big thing. And these are important lessons and I hope that everybody listening, you know, also younger artists, we have many young artists from around the world listen to this, you know, this is a very serious twice. And what you guys do is a model we look up to if theater is of interest. Also it is because it is a model for something for a different society a different place it's by people demonstrate because they envision something different they have hope and that's why they go on the street and theater is is part of that. And, and we spoke today to to, you know, of great workers in the field of theater and we miss Natalia but the Belarus freedoms that I will have, and already has its place in the history of theater of global centuries and you are a shining light, a brilliant in that sense of that, you know, more light comes out of you than perhaps even you put in that you have a real symbolic imaginary but real influence and and we really would like to thank you for all you have done for Belarus, I think for Ukraine for your friends but also for theater in general. It's a great role model it's one of the many ways to do theater theater is a someone said it's like a museum that has many many rooms with many different forms. But what the free Belarus free theater created what they are doing what they're continuing to do what they will do is a brilliant example and a great example of what theater is about. And anybody asks, does theater have any influence at all is it of important and he asked people, like a looker shanker who forbid them who don't allow them in their tiny little place they can even tolerate that. So, because it is dangerous it's subversive, and it's actually not trying to feed the big hungry machine of entertainment. It is actually also working against that machine. And it's something that's very radically different than a lot of theater what we see is thank you both. And thanks for how round for hosting us the IVJ Andy and Tanvi at the seagulls and then for you listeners I know how much is out there there's this big, big fatigue a battle fatigue of Corona now wars. And, but it is important that we use because I also feel this is inspiring and what they do what they say, if you take it too hard, it's also meaningful for your very own life they're not just talking about art and are they are talking about us in our lives and that we have to participate and we have to be open and we have to believe in what we are, but on the side of truth. So thank you all. And I hope to see you both in New York if you come next January. Hopefully we can do a single program maybe even life in person or space is still closed we have no life events. And we hope that the corona situation will get better a terrifying statistic came from Germany yesterday 59% of all tests were positive. And nobody knows what that means it's a staggering number. And we have to monitor the situation where we are going and I always wonder those Russian soldiers who are not vaccinated or very bad one. Whereas a mask in their tanks together when they shoot a people you know it's apocalyptic in the sense of the word and and but I think we have to continue what we are doing and it was truly inspiring important. And we are better because of what you said today we learned a lot. Thank you. Bye bye. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye bye. Thank you.