 Today, I am doing the first ever Zoom interview, fireside chat. This is a big step, and I'm very honored to begin this interview with two wonderful mental men. The primary guest today is Alexei Grachev from St. Petersburg, Russia. The president of St. Petersburg Leatherman. Assisting us today is Mike Est of Estonia, who is the president of Leatherman Club Estonia. Mike is being very gracious to assist us with Russian and English translation, because my Russian is maybe two words or three words only. So Alexei, I must apologize for that. So I will begin right now. Alexei, please tell me about your early life and your family. My childhood was quite ordinary as other young people in Russia. I studied at a special school. I didn't hear much. Then I went to an ordinary school. I was the first one to go to an ordinary school. I was the first one who came to an ordinary school with a problem with hearing. So I was the first. That wasn't such kind of children before. When I finished school, I was the first one to go to an ordinary school. If I graduated from the secondary school, I went to the high school. I have two diplomas. I have a certified pharmacist and also a businessman, a business administration. Please tell me a little bit about your life in the communist system. Can you say a few words about your life in Soviet times? Not much. I don't understand. Soviet times. How was your life? It was my personal life. It was my personal life. I was busy with my studies. I was busy with my personal life. I was busy with my personal life. I was busy with my personal life. Mostly the study was fulfilling my life this time. But of course I was interested about guys. But I didn't recognize my interest in this time so well. It turned out that my 15-year-old sister had contact with my classmates. If I was 15 years old, I chatted with my friends in school and so on, but nothing special. It was clear what I was interested in. But of course no one could know our time. After that I became... Sorry. With time I started to understand about my interest. But of course nobody could know it. It was indeed a secret. Because I had to support the prestige of my family. Because I was an old man. Saint-Petersburg was a city city. So it was necessary to show the success of our family. And I was married in 1981. Who was the second man, Peter Burrett? He was the second man, Peter Burrett. He was a very old man. He needed to keep a polite position because his stepfather was a vice major of Saint-Petersburg. And therefore he needed to keep such a polite and prestige position. And the position of his family too. And he married when he was 21 years old. And now he already has a daughter who is 25. She knows the orientation of him and supports Alexei with any situation. Yes. I wanted to know about that. On Hotel Uznaita Bertam. But did you feel at age 21 that you must marry a woman? When you were 21 years old, did you feel at age 21 that you must marry a woman? Did you feel at age 21 that you must marry a woman? To be honest, I didn't need it. But before there were such, as they say, concepts. If there is something wrong in the family of a large party worker, then we could already have very simple questions and problems in the career. The situation was so that in this time it was common that people must marry. And if they don't, then it looked strange. And if you like to make a career, you need to have family and children and all kinds of stuff. Then you could have a better position in your career. Therefore it was necessary. The society meets that you are a correct and ordinary member of the society. How long were you married? Seven years. So was this when you were still under the communist system? Sorry, I couldn't understand your question. Let me change it. Did you get divorced still before Glasnost, basically? Yes, he asks, when did you get divorced? Was it during Soviet times? Yes, during Soviet times. It was in late Soviet times. It was already Glasnost and Perestroika times. So how did you come out as a gay man? How did you come out as a gay man in society? What did you tell someone? First of all, she said that there was no coming out. She said that there was no coming out. She said that there was no coming out. She said that she could pronounce it loudly. But I didn't do a secret to her. In the end, it happened again. Our child was 35. Two companies worked on it. I started working in a company called Africa, and I was very busy. So it was normal. It was like that. So until... If I got 35 years old, then I started more, I think, and busier with K-topics. Before, I had three companies. I had a lot of works. So I hadn't too much time for my personal life, and also I thought that maybe it's not normal to live a gay life this time. So after when I got 35, then I had more time to think about it, and to act more likely. Lovely. When I got 35 years old, I came to a Russian gay site in Omsk. I thought it would be nice to talk about it. This award, when I was 35, there started the first gay site in the internet in Russia, where you could have relations and to know each other. And therefore it was easier to communicate gay people in Russia this time. Please tell me more about that site. Can you tell us a little bit more about these sites, what they were, or what... What kind of acquaintances were there, and what they had. Yes. What did these sites ask about? They asked about everything. So it started from the site, and it was a huge size, and it wasn't that big of a difference. Because it was a very unpleasant site. The first one was, ''Hello, let's go to the site.'' It was a very common experience, and I wanted to be sure, because it was real. A man is just a person in the street. I got it. Okay. There was different advertising, and a lot of such kind of advertising, where guys like to meet immediately, and to have sex the first time. But I was more interested to know the other person, more detailedly understood which person he is. Is he a serious man, or just some kind of such person, who likes to have one time fuck, and that's all. Was it very popular to use this site? Was it popular at that time? What was popular? This page of acquaintance. Yes, it was probably, if not the only one, but at least the access to acquaintance, connection, and even the Russia. Russia was a very popular website. It really was the first chance to have a contact in Russia for gay people, because before there wasn't such kind of places and it was the first one and all Russia and all gay people in Russia could use it so it was very popular because there wasn't anything before it came with the internet as they don't they didn't have such a magazine or printed places where you could put advertising so internet games a chance to communicate directly to the gay people how did you learn about homosexuality and about kink how did this information come to you, how did you accept it? probably it came intuitively, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know what my inner nature is I looked and made searches on the internet and I found that I was a gay person I looked and made searches on the internet and I found that I was gay I looked and made searches on the internet and because I had interest then I searched about these topics and this way I could collect some knowledge about these topics so the internet was where I could educate myself on this field for many of us in North America and Europe also we are very curious about gay life under communism please tell us a little bit about that in in the communist days of Russia how was their gay life were there bars or saunas or a cruising area this is very curious for us in America and of course in Europe men are interested in gay life in the Soviet times there were some bars, places somewhere in the park where people gathered and talked and how was gay life in the Soviet times organized at all? Well, considering that I am quite late to go to the demo, but I knew that Saint Petersburg had places for such meetings. Saint Petersburg has an old gay club in a bar that already existed in the Soviet times, even in the so-called past, I don't know how you can put it, it's a few meetings in the city of Saint Petersburg, but that's why, of course, you know only your own because I came out so lately I didn't participate too much this time, but I knew that there are some bars and some places where gay people could meet and also in the center of Saint Petersburg on the main street there was a place where gay people could meet of course this information was known only in a gay circle not for everybody, but in Saint Petersburg there was already in Soviet time one club which was well known for gay people and who gay people like to visit and to meet. Officially, of course, it wasn't gay club, but people knew that they could meet other gay guys very often. Of course, there was a sauna, a so-called freezing sauna, but I don't know, so I can't tell you. Of course, there was such a situation that in public saunas you could in a certain time meet gay guys, but it was such unofficially and Alex didn't visit these saunas and these freezing places this time, but yes, there was such places and people who were interested they could visit them and to meet some other guys in this time. Okay, okay, was it very risky then? It was time to visit these places. It was in Soviet time, right? Yes. If you say that, well, as a class 5, at that time, it wasn't too much, so everything was very clear, everything was clear, but if, of course, there were a lot of attacks, then it was necessary to have some kind of extracurricular appearance, as a rule, as a rule, because a lot of gay men, they look like natural, so well, in general, and those who have a certain kind of extracurricular appearance and social norm, appearance and behavior, there could be problems. In Soviet times, these gay people, they looked like ordinary people and there wasn't any difference, but of course, if some gays were more differently outfitted or something special, so then could be some, how to say, higher interest or the other guys could attack them because they looked like different and act different, but of course, it wasn't so generally, but with some certain persons, so there wasn't a big danger for gay people, if you act like ordinary straight people, so nobody was interested and nobody didn't care. Ah, okay, excuse me, so Russia is depicted as having a negative view about homosexuality. How do you see that in Russia today? In Russia, gay people are treated negatively, how do you see this situation now? Well, that's it for now, but for now, I don't know what's going on in the world, it's just getting harder and harder, so right now, when there's a movement in Russia that's going down the drain, even though the activists are trying to solve this problem, but for now, Okay, thank you very much. The situation in Russia is going more complicated nowadays because official authorities, they found in gay movement a useful enemy who they need to attack to orientate people from real problems to such, how to say, moral problems, like he's a gay movement. And after collapsing of communist system, the first president of Russia, Yeltsin, he took from penal code homosexuality as a crime, but now the authorities, they are talking again that we need to put it back to the penal code. So, this way, this gay activist who would like to organize and develop a gay movement in Russia, they are going more deeply under the cover because authorities, they try to show that it is not common for Russia and not common for traditional values. Do you think authorities will succeed? Do you think authorities will be successful in this case, to press and close everything that is related to gay movement? How do you rate it? You need to answer this question, because on the one hand they are on the basis of Russian mentality for which the law is not only about men and women, and on the other hand they are not acceptable. Of course, the church itself does not include it in this question. I think, if the situation, the government needs to do everything it wants to do. I think so that the authorities nowadays like to fix that the only normal and acceptable relation is between the man and the woman, and the other relations are not legal. And if the authorities think that they need to somehow to stop and to liquidate such gay movement, of course they can do it. But it's difficult to say, because Russia is so large and of course public opinion is a little bit different in bigger cities and the small towns and countryside, so we need to accept these differences, too. I said that it depends on which place, that in small places it is more conservative than in big cities. How is the current gay life in St. Petersburg? In St. Petersburg, of course, there are gay people, but in terms of gender, I know that there are three groups that work, one is gay, one is gay, and the other is gay, but it depends on the situation. There are three gay clubs that are working nowadays in St. Petersburg, and there is a cruising club which is working in St. Petersburg, too. But of course life is changing and some clubs have openings and some are closing, so the situation is changing all the time. You mentioned a cruising club, is there a leather bar? Do you mean a cruising club? Do they have leather bars in their clubs, or what? Yes, leather bars, they are very expensive in St. Petersburg, but in St. Petersburg, they don't have any money, they are only for our business. In the cruising club, there are mostly vanilla guys. Leather and fetish guys are very close in St. Petersburg, and they didn't show yourself on these clubs in Leather Gear, only these Leather Club events, there are guys in Leather and they are visiting, not in other places in other clubs. Do you have private leather parties? He is asking if you organize private parties for your family. Yes, they organize private evenings. How does the community feel about this? Is it popular? Is it popular for you to organize private parties? Yes, it is popular, but it is not for our family, but for our family, it is popular. Well, it's a bit boring, it's a bit boring, I don't know what to do, that's the same thing. Therefore, this interest is not so big, it is bigger than it was sometimes ago, but not too much, let's say so. And we are happy to work in the club, cabarets and central station, but because we don't have the opportunity to organize a club, then we are happy to work with all the visitors of the club. Because our lesser club is not very large, there is not too much members, so we couldn't rent a whole room. So we need to accept that if we organize our meeting in some club rooms, then there will be also other persons who are not members of our club and who are not into the festivities. They could be of course interested about this, but they are not members of this club. So therefore, we don't organize events only for fetish people. How about if you do this in a private home? Well, in general, in the club, in a private area, we do not participate in parties. There is no special distribution for us and for the rest of the people. Yes, the question was that you don't meet someone in a private... No, no, no. Then if it's a large place and they have some room or corner where they are collecting for this event, then this way. Wow, how many people are part of the club? How many members of your leather club? How many? How many? How many? Fifteen members. He said it was a little. Well, it's a primary activity, but it's the most active activity in the club. It's a real situation. This is, of course, not too much people, but it's a reality of today. And a lot of guys who are a little bit interested about leather and fetish, they are afraid that if other persons could know about their interest, they could have problems at work, always family and so on. And therefore, they keep a low profile. Such a shame. It's sad. It's sad? Yes. It's sad, but it's a reality. It's sad, but this is a reality. Yeah. How is it seen elsewhere in Russia? There is a movement in Moscow. There is a movement of the bear. It's clear. Well, because it's old, it's a little bit later. But about the club, it's a very rare place. It's about 34 years old. And it's a big concern. They try to do something. There are no other places, so there is no talk. It's just so... It's so empty. Okay. Of course, in Moscow, the situation is a little bit better because it's a capital and the biggest center. There are more key clubs and also the bear movement organizing regular sauna meetings in Moscow. But there are four free cities where the key activists try to organize something. But in smaller places, there is nothing because the public opinion is so... It is not legal and not supported. So in smaller places, there is no such events and meetings as in bigger places. And also, I forget, the influence has this so-called law against homo-propaganda for minorities, which put big pressure to gay activists because it's forbidden to make gay propaganda for minorities in Russia. And therefore, if there is something about gay life, the authorities also turning it against gay people that it's not prohibited to talk anything about gays' lifestyle and so on. Even if these for adult people, grown-up people, these authorities say this information could get for children somehow and it's forbidden. So that's a question and a problem. There is a fetish club in Moscow who are interested in latex and they are organizing once a year competition Mr. Rubber Russia and Alex cooperating with them and they have connections. But this is only once a year. So there is no more regular events during the year. But once a year they are organizing this competition Mr. Rubber Russia. How many years have they been doing this competition in Moscow? Alex? You are asking me? Yes. How many years have they been doing this? Alex thinks that they have organized this competition Mr. Rubber Russia three times, three years. May I ask you to please introduce me to them for an interview like this? He asks if it's possible to introduce him to these men in Moscow so that they may agree to do an interview with him. What do you think? In general, we have discussed this issue a lot. We are thinking to combine our efforts and conduct all these activities on a higher level. But for now it's just an interview. For now. I don't know what to say. I think that this is still very, how to say, in a low level. And therefore they think that there is not too much to talk about it yet. But I can ask that you could have some contact person to take contact after some time. Let's think about a year or something like that. I ask him. But what do you think? You can just give some contact person with whom he can, for example, contact well, let's say, after a year and find out how things are going to look. Maybe then we can talk about it in more detail. Yes, that's not a very clear question. What do you think about it? The question is that if you have the opportunity with some of these men to organize Mr. Ravir Rasha to give him some contact so that he can directly communicate with them. Maybe in a few months or in a few months to find out how these things are going. Well, in the future, we can, of course. And, of course, we can talk about it. First of all, ask them if they agree and if they agree with them. You can send them an email address. He agrees that he will talk with guys in Moscow and if they agree, then he will give your contact and you can date later contact with them. And if something you can arrange some email connection and maybe interview one day. Okay, thank you. So, what shall I ask Nick? Please tell us about being the president of St. Petersburg Leatherman. Please tell us about your work as president of the leather club Peterburg. How did you become president? What do you do as president? If you have a job, then I will do it myself. Because I never got a job. Because I already had someone who could take care of himself and take care of the person who is not afraid of the fact that he can do it himself. I understand. Actually, there wasn't any election for presidency in this club. They just needed a person who was a leader, who could organise and who other guys trust and go after him. So, he elected himself president. Very good. And the other point was also that the president is somehow a public person. So, he is not afraid to be looked as a leader of his fetish and leather movement. That was the other point where he was agreed to take his role and post. Great. So, what would you do if you could be open about your kink? What kind of events, what sexual activities would you like to organise or try? If I could be free, I would like to organize a meeting for myself. For yourself? That's a good question. Well, yes. But, until then, it didn't work out. But, in the end, a private party is being organized. I won't do that, but private, private, private meetings in the apartment, something like that. Well, I don't know. He tells that he is interested in different kinks, but he hopes that he could practice them in some private meetings in private places. But he didn't specialise very much what kind of kink he would like to practice himself. Which kink do you like? What do you like? With a leader. He likes to be dominant. He likes to be dominant and to be a leader. For example, is there any kind of physical fisting or, I don't know, flogging? Is there something that really makes you excited? For example, fisting or how to speak Russian. Well, if you are drunk, on such behavior, it wakes you up or is it not for you? What kind of behavior? Do you know what? For example, fisting. I would say it is very confident. Very little. Very little. I think what is your favorite kink that you like to do? He asks what is your favorite behavior? I understand. I understand. I like my business with dogs, as they say. When they value I don't know how to say. Well, it's good to dominate. I understand. Of course, they don't fight. I understand. When you are going to fight, you need to master the character. I understand. He likes to dominate and if there are puppies, then he can organize and discipline these puppies. Then he is a puppy owner in his role. You must come to the international puppy contest here in the United States. You must. He said that you should feel international competition for the Chinese in the United States. It's very cool and good to fight. Yes. Well, I really want to. I want to fight for 2-3 years. I'm afraid it's unreal. I'm afraid of the Russia. It's not going to be easy to fight. He is very interested but he thinks that it will take a couple of years and he could arrange it and of course they are organizing competition of Mr. Russia couple of years. But it is also very in a very beginning and if this event will be more developed and so on and then probably they can visit more other such kind of competitions different competitions in other countries also in the United States. They like to do this competition of Mr. Russia Europe more higher level and if they could arrange more more publicly and so on then they can do the next steps and visit and go to other countries and other competitions too. You must let me know about Mr. Leather Russia because if you do it I will try to come and if you need if if you organize the next competition of Mr. Leather Russia he'd like to know it before and he'd like to come and if if you organize the next competition he'd like to know about it and then he'd like to come and watch the competition. If you organize Mr. Leather Russia then then he'd like then he'd like to know the date so that he can come and watch the competition. No problems he will keep you informed it will be next year next year next year. Please let me know as soon as possible. What king do you most want to try? I want to test everything in Poland. I understood. The question is how what Well, what awakens you, awakens the sexiness of pain? It awakens the sexiness. Well, in that sense, we have a lot of classes such as, let's say, Golden Shower, and other events. It's just one thing, but it's interesting to him that in such games it awakens you more. It's complicated. It's complicated. He could meet such real men, real masculine men. Don't tell any specific thing he'd like to practice. My last question is, what is the biggest misconception about you? Is it too difficult? It's difficult. I think I need to look to the translator correctly to translate this question. I'm very sorry, Alexei. Just a moment, yes. What is the biggest misconception about you and your position as a leather man? There is no misconception, right? There would be some misconception. He thinks that most people don't think he's gay because how he acts and how he looks doesn't show that he could be gay. That is the point. Lovely. But Alexei, I must say thank you very much for such a lovely interview. I want to say thank you for the translation, for such a good friend who helps you. Thank you to our general friend, John O'Brien. Alexei, thank you for translating and for John O'Brien who connected us. And also to you that you are interested about people in Eastern Europe and especially about us. My pleasure. It was very pleasant to him. Right. Pleasure on both sides. But Mike, I must thank you very much as well. You were very kind to assist Alexei and me. This was very kind of you. And I say thank you very much. Yeah, you are welcome. You are welcome. I did my best. You did wonderfully.