 I'm at case because she was doing cyborg camps and I was running transhumanist discussion groups and she has co-founded Geoloki which has then been acquired by Esri and is now at the Esri R&D department in Portland, Oregon. She speaks at all sorts of places including TED and I did not know this. You were the National Geographic's Emerging Explorer and magazine 30 under 30. Inc's magazine? I don't know these things. Did I hit everything? Ah, case is a proponent of data ownership and uses her domain as her own personal data storage and identity provider. She founded Indie Web Camp with Tan Tech and Erin over here, Erin, in 2010. Yay! And that happens on Saturday and Sunday. You all should go. And yeah, furthering ideas of calm technology, wearable computing, and the future of interfaces. She's on Twitter as Case Organic. Alright, hello everyone. I'm going to talk to you about cyborgs and calm technology. So the first thing I'd like to tell you is that we're all cyborgs and that doesn't mean that your terminator or Robocop, you don't have to have anything implanted in your in your bodies in order to be a cyborg. In fact, everyone's a cyborg simply when they use a computer. They use a piece of technology that's external to them that stores some sort of information outside of themselves. So you could consider people making cave paintings or using early tools to be cyborgs because we've evolved in a symbiotic relationship between us and technology. Technology produces us and we produce it and it's allowed us to have longer life spans and really terraform our own worlds and change our environments because people are very strange. They put these kind of external prosthetics on themselves in order to adapt to new environments like a scuba diver can go underneath the ocean where a human shouldn't be able to go because they can attach these new tools to themselves. So in terms of tools, the physical extensions of ourselves like a hammer being the physical extension of a fist is this thing that's external to us that's a pretty stable object. For thousands of years, it's looked the same, felt the same, acted the same, had the same function. We can tell from its form what it does but when we look at computing technology it's an extension of both our physical self and our mental self and the form doesn't match up with function. If you were to walk somebody into an old computer station and say what's this they would say I have no idea and the same with this what about this form actually says what it does. It's a sort of thing that's becoming more and more invisible, becoming smaller. The shape of technology that's an extension of our mental self is unstable inherently. So it's very interesting for me to study the creation of this idea of cyborg from a 1960 paper on space travel which talked about the idea of adding all these exogenous components to yourself in order to adapt to space which is an inherently hostile environment. So the idea of a field of cyborg anthropology actually got founded in 1993 at a conference. They were talking about how we need to talk about our technology as actors in an actor network, as a system that acts alongside us. Donna Haraway who wrote the cyborg manifesto talks about non-human allies that can be animals or they can be creatures and we now have these strange devices that cry and we have to pick them up and soothe them back to sleep. They get hungry and we have to plug them into the wallet night. If we keep them for too long they turn against us and they fill our world with ill-fitting prosthetics. Sigmund Freud wrote this book called Civilization and It's Discontents and he said we might have a future in which it is filled with these ill-fitting prosthetics that turn against us because they're not very well designed. It's because of all these things that I got into user experience design not only for the physical world but the digital world because it's not necessarily about making an interface that looks really nice it's about making this the simplest interface that gets the job done and as I was doing my research I started to look at okay what's going to happen when there's all of these devices. This is a really often cited quote that 50 billion devices will be online by 2020 and it's usually in this very incredibly excited context we're going to have all this all these computers how exciting you know does this sound really great well then I thought about it and I said well if technology right now is really obnoxious and annoying and giving us blue screens and spinning beach balls of death and going out when we don't actually need it to you know turn off or having some interface that didn't get updated correctly then what's going to happen when we're surrounded by 50 billion of them that's the fear that I have is that we're not going to live in a dystopia but as my friend Vin came up with more of a mild dystopia in which we don't necessarily have dystopian conditions all the time or utopian conditions all of the time we have just enough annoyance that it makes our lives there's this kind of friction to it right so let's consider some of the things that have come up so the smart watch that gives you lots and lots of notifications about pretty much everything that could be good in some situations it's not inherently good it depends on the design of the technology that gives you the notification or the smart fridge for instance I don't need to know whether the banana in my fridge is expired because the peel on the banana has been naturally evolving to tell me that it's expired by turning a different color also the packaging is biodegradable and I can unwrap it it's a really smart piece of technology technically the packaging has been embedded into the banana or any of the other things in my fridge do I need to get reminded every time I go to the store to pick up the milk do I really need to do that or do I put that into a system in my mind that says every time I go to the store I pick up the milk do I want to say sorry the virus updates must be downloaded on your fridge before you can open the door you need to add a preferred plan to have other family members open the fridge oh it looks like you're off your diet and therefore you can't eat this sugar well what happens if I'm about to have you know like if I'm about to pass out and I actually need sugar and my fridge locks me up because it's not according to my program when when the machine makes these decisions for you you get into these strange traps where suddenly there's a million more parts to think about and a million more parts to service than just a basic fridge which is why a lot of people have just been getting like older model fridges because they just want a latch that opens the door and they can put their stuff in and they don't have to worry about all the extra features however in some countries the more features that you have on your technology the more exciting it is and some people even have like washers and dryers that go your laundry is ready which is really difficult to hear because machine shouldn't talk like humans you know the Roomba does a really good job where it just goes when it's done and when it gets stuck it goes dun dun that's it that's all you need to know right as a status or a tea cuddle so if you put all these things together I really just imagine a dystopian kitchen of the future in which competing companies have all the different protocols all the different data sets they own all the different data about you they all speak in different languages they all give you different alerts and then suddenly one day your entire kitchen is starting to beep at you in different ways but you don't know how to disrupt the beeping and turn it off and it's just this kind of dystopian environment because you know this isn't you know how many standards are they're going to be about kitchen notification and do you really need all of this kitchen notification do you really need all of these you know it's very easy to write about this sort of sort of thing but when it gets into reality it can get very difficult so I kind of think that we already are in this era of interruptive technology and this will only increase over time unless we learn different ways to calmly notify people of certain things and so really what I think we need is this idea of a calm technology a technology that gets out of the way when you don't need it and is there when you do makes you in calm in calms and informs you instead of taking you out of your day and causing you to pay a bunch of attention to it right it shouldn't be like a small puppy although a small puppy is cute that would be okay it should be more like something that's just always there so calm technology came from a paper out of xerox park the mid 90s so mark weiser who's no longer with us and john sealy brown said well we're going to make the future in a small space at park and then we're going to see what's going to happen and mark weiser and john sealy brown said well when we have all these devices we need to make them in a way that they don't really interrupt everybody so they came up with this idea of calm technology and when I went back and looked at what they wrote I said okay well they wrote in an era in which there wasn't a ton of technology around now that we're increasingly having a lot of technology we need to bring back this term and this narrative and this structure and these guidelines in order to at least help people to you know you as as a designer or developer can understand inherently that this might be a good thing but you also need a way to convince the stakeholders in in your company that are trying to add like 10 or 20 features in without understanding the consequences so this is what I'm I'm trying to do this is a really great paper if you want to read it it's on calmtechnology.com it's called the coming age of calm technology and it talks about all the different eras of technology and notification systems that we can have so some of the quotes out of the paper technology shouldn't require all of our attention just some of it and only when necessary and then there's there's a number of examples this is my favorite one about empowering the periphery as humans we have great peripheral vision we can see and sense things that are external to us we can hear sounds that are far away without having to attune our entire head towards them and so calm technology makes use of this peripheral attention so we can be aware of these things but we don't have the cognitive overhead of having to switch our focus entirely to them so it's kind of like a fractal sense of perception what can you fold into this smaller space to your side how low of resolution can you go and also deliver the same quality and same resolution of information that you could with say a text alert this is the question and the challenge of calm technology because once you do that then you have calming and forming technology that's reasonable to to use that doesn't annoy people constantly so the idea of a calm technology it can move easily from the foreground to the background so you can place these things in the periphery and then people can suddenly attune to five or six channels of technology right so you could say I could attune my own perception because it's really low resolution compressed to five or six different channels so I could know inherently what's going on in all these different places without having to place my attention on them one at a time so it's it's kind of a way of calm multitasking because multitasking is not really a great thing to do but if you can compress it you can probably multitask reasonably well so let's look at some examples my favorite example is a tea kettle a tea kettle you put water in you set it you forget it and when it's ready it draws attention to itself by its own power by the steam going through the channel that says yeah so when you're in a different room you can tell when the when the tea kettle needs attention and then you go and get it right so it's calm for most of the time and then when you need to pick it up it's no longer calm and then you know exactly what it does it has its own frequency or chirp you know what a tea kettle is people can make an imitation of a tea kettle and it pretty much sounds the same across all tea kettles except for the digital tea tea kettles but people still know those right a tea kettle is never hey i'm done come and pick this up or it doesn't have like a beep beep beep right um uh so really the the whole point of this is that a little bit of technology goes the longest way if you can figure out the lowest resolution of technology to solve your problem you're going to have a lot less issues to solve and fix and maintain and support and support in some weird language that's a new language that no one uses yet or might not use in another year or two this is my other favorite one toilet occupied sign if i take my glasses off and everything becomes fuzzy i can still look up and see whether it's green or red you don't have to translate this software into 50 different languages it's inherently known that that's a toilet and it's either occupied or not this is really really simple and then it lights up or doesn't could you imagine a non-column version of this if it were to be designed today it would send you a push notification on your phone that said the toilet is open the toilet is closed the toilet is open and would have all these beeps and you get like email updates about network with your toilet because it's exciting you know this is a brand of toilet right this is really simple i like this light-based data system so this was built by Aaron he uh he just made this simple system where there's some lights this is a service called B-Minder where you track your progress and if you go off track they take your money so say if you want to lose weight by like not eating bread every day you don't eat bread you're on track but if you eat bread one day then you're off track and so this system will like turn to yellow if you need to attend to it or red if you need to attend to it right away so then you don't have to go into the app and say do i need to attend this thing you just inherently walk into your dining room wherever you place the system and say oh it's green well i don't need to do anything i only need to take action when it's yellow or red and that way you don't have to open up your computer get distracted by facebook or reddit or whatever and then you can just wait um taking this further uh uh after seeing a talk Aaron made this weather status lighting system using a philips hue and the idea is that when you wake up in the morning you can see what weather it is you can just feel what weather it's going to be for the day it takes the weather forecast and turns it into a light status so if it's going to be sunny it's yellow if it's going to rain it's blue if it's going to be cloudy it's kind of gray and then you inherently know what it's going to be just by walking in you don't have to look at the you know there's always these these videos about somebody living alone in this perfect futuristic world and they have the perfect san franciscan like accent that can talk to all of the voice recognition apps and have them hear them clearly and it's always quiet and there's never any trucks driving by so there's never any need to re-annunciate something because there's ambient noise they don't listen to any music in the morning that might confuse the voice recognition apps that are always listening for their voices about talking about um tell me the weather you know or you know when you're brushing your teeth having this big beautiful weather display that is really beautiful but doesn't give you any information this immediately gives you information by walking into your kitchen and that's all it does so a little bit about designing calm technology the two principles that i went over before a technology can should inform while also in calming and make use of the peripheral vision the kind of fractal space to the side of you that you can compress things into while not giving people interruptions um if you design for people first then with people in mind actually using your stuff with paper prototypes and cardboard prototypes and real people um then you um then you get rid of this idea that that humans uh well the problem is when you design something that's not human first you end up with situations where a human is put on pause where a human is waiting for information a human is acting like a machine if you design for a human first you amplify the best of humans you amplify the best of what machines can do and then they meet in the middle um and then you don't have to get a washing machine that says ding ding ding ding i'm done in some weird language that then you have to translate into a bunch of different languages um you just have that da da and then that's clear like kind of a lower level device language for for machines um so the last part is that technology can communicate but it really doesn't need to speak um so again with a rumba it goes da da when it's done it goes dun dun if it's stuck the funny thing about this vacuum and it doesn't make decisions for you when it gets stuck it says oh no and then you go and pick it up and put it somewhere else so you can always as a human say oh well the machine isn't making all these decisions for me i can pick it up because it's lightweight and move it where i need to put it um this uh posture sensor just sends you a little buzz when you need to sit straight calmly informing you of what you need to do without sending you a text message that says straighten your back um sleep cycle is really great because you can just set this as an alarm clock put it underneath your pillow it will monitor your REM cycle and then wake you up right before um right before you go back into deep sleep at a at a really nice time so this is a way to just wake up naturally without having to track all of these things um so if you think about designing things not just for sending somebody a text message but through all your different senses you have a lot of different senses that you can compress notifications into you can have auditory alerts you can have haptic or or you know buzzing alerts you can have light statuses instead of a full display the easiest one to think about is the record button on a vhs it's red it's recording it's really simple it's universal uh positive or negative tones instead of there was an error just saying that dun dun is really simple um like in video games uh and then transparency one example that mark wiser and john ceilid brown had was these inner office windows there are window up on the top of your office so you still maintain privacy but people can tell whether your light is on or off and whether you're in the office or not so they don't have to bother you as much um the jawbone up um allows sleep tracking but doesn't really have an interface too much you can press it and it'll give you like a a green status or a red status especially when it's running out of battery makes a really good use of haptics and light um the live wire was made by natalie germagenko uh mark wiser was her advisor this was this was an interesting device because it took something that was formally invisible like network traffic and it made it visible so whenever there was a lot of network traffic at park it would start to go and you could see what was going on ooh somebody's doing something interesting at this point i guess people would be torrenting and so it would be always going but this early on was a kind of interesting indicator of of network activity um so in terms of privacy uh we can say you know what what really is privacy um you could say in a serious tone that you know part of this is you you need to be able to it's not necessarily the device making decisions for you all of the time but it is giving you some status based on something that knows about you often right and so privacy in some respects i like this definition the ability to have control over where your contact goes and who it's accessed by uh but my other favorite definition um is that you know it can give you a feeling or perception of security which is one of the issues um my favorite example is in second life there was um a bunch of scammers that made banks in second life and they looked like beautiful banks with marble columns they were very impressive so people would walk in these banks deposit their money hook up their bank account and then get all of their money stolen and when the second life security person asked them about them people said well it looked like an impressive bank it gave me a sense of trust a sense of security said well did you know it's a virtual environment you can just arbitrarily create something looks trustworthy and you can arbitrarily create something that's trustworthy online so this perception of security can be completely designed um an example in a in a busing system uh there were a bunch of security cameras put in but only one in five buses actually got the security camera every bus actually just got a wine dark opacity you know um surveillance camera shell but the crime and the bullying on the buses severely decreased because people had this sense that they were being watched um steve man who um did a lot of work here made an experiment called maybe cam where you may or may not be being surveilled by his t-shirt and that really changed people's behavior around him this is my this is my favorite that privacy is just the ability not to be surprised people don't want to be surprised it's as simple as that and so if you can design systems in which people are not surprised and know how to deal with your interface all the time then you have a better system so if you want to design for privacy you could do privacy by design by allowing people export their data we can talk way more about that at indy web camp don't have to go into it or data ownership where people have access to their data um contextual privacy when you share something um being able to expose privacy controls at the point of posting you don't want to give people all of this data that they don't need unless they're actually doing something with the device um and so again you know half of it's perceived part of it socially created it depends on the norms of the world in which you're in what people will feel comfortable with um so the norm for a while was feature phones and then when camera phones showed up people were terrified they said oh no everybody's going to take pictures of everyone all of the time what happened over time was that people got used to everybody having a camera phone in their pocket we all have cameras in our pockets right now and we're not terrified of each other as much as we could be and especially as much as we were when they first started coming out they had limited features they had few apps um and then google glass came out the issue was that it didn't come out for everybody all at the same time so um people started getting freaked out because it the norm was we had camera phones in our pocket and we had these social rituals of pulling out the camera and taking picture so when this came out not everybody had it um there was a design and product launch in which not everyone could create software for it so when the iPhone first came out there was lots and lots of stuff you could build with it and people were playing and people weren't playing with this system um so people didn't get a chance to play with it there was a lot of confusion there were too many features um and there was fear and I made this little graphic of most people asked are you recording me right now because while there was a video camera capability there wasn't an indicator light to say whether somebody was recording there wasn't that piece of calm technology that allowed people to understand whether there was a status of something going on or not um whereas with the iPhone there were small features iteratively added to the device over time in a way that it was cheap enough to actually build things with and a lot of people had phones already and they knew what they did so I tried to calm the device by headbanding it when I went into a place like taking off a hat um for in terms of politeness um but it never really made people feel comfortable because this is a very intimate part of of your experience is your eyes and having something be between your eyes and somebody else's eyes is difficult now if they would this were spread across five years and iterative um products that were cheap enough this could be embedded into reality but unlike the smartphone um it wasn't launched in in the same way and so it wasn't a calm device it wasn't designed even though it was designed to look nice it wasn't designed to be calm and therefore it panicked people whereas the narrative device which is based on a long um understanding of life logging is a calmer device um the it actually is pervasively taking pictures of people but it's doing it for a personal time lapse um the the camera is off to the side up in the right hand corner um so or down in the corner depends on where you put it on and the shape is friendly and it's not eye level and it doesn't sync constantly to the web so it's a more calmer version actually designed with the principles of calm technology um by a guy in sweden so the idea of really good design really just allows people to get their goals done really fast and the technology just gets out of the way where people just don't even notice the technology is there like a good book is well there's two pieces of interface going on with a good book one is the pages and the form of the book which loads instantaneously and doesn't require any battery life and is stable for a couple hundred years and then the writer's words which are their own interface that allow you to to slip into it and so a great book allows you to dissolve into the interface um and a great piece of technology allows you to just become one with it temporarily and then come back out in a calm fashion and the idea of calm technology is also you can accomplishing same goals with the least amount of mental cost because there's so many things now that are taking up our mental space that we can we often have you know if we have 100 percent of our our mental capacity for the day we often have like 200 percent more um you know notifications and things that we that are drawing our attention the more we can compress those it'd be nice to have a day where we only had you know 50 percent of our cognitive capability taken up by technology or 25 percent because it was compressed in a way that we could handle all of it and we felt calm at the end of the day so in conclusion I think that a person's primary task should be being human and not being a computer and not having to always look at the technology and the same a computer's primary task should not be to try to be human and try to understand us it should be connecting to us to each other and our knowledge and our data in an efficient way and be designed to be smooth so if you want to read more about this there's calmtechnology.com um and that's it so thank you so much uh this is a little bit of a general question I would just really like to hear uh what your thoughts are on uh user experience design over the last couple of years and trends because I've been designing interfaces for over a decade and I've seen a lot of changes in the last few years do you have any thoughts on UX culture uh and maybe if you could just share those really quickly I think you sure um yeah so the question is about changes in UX over time yeah um the exciting thing is that when I first got into UX design I didn't know what it was and that it was a legitimate field that you didn't have to go and get a four-year degree for um somebody told me hey you're a UX designer because you have a physical physiological reaction to a button being in the wrong place where like it makes you angry and frustrated and and you know just almost kind of violent you know looking at like a parking ticket machine and then just bristling in anger right um where I think that before it was go and get a degree and you know human factors you know or human user experience and write a bunch of research papers and a lot of those that came out were really helpful like the idea that I keep telling people um you know where there's a larger iPhone format and they're like we want to put this button that people would use all the time over on the right hand corner and I said well then you can't use the app with one hand you have to use both hands you know um so I think on the one hand there's a bunch of stuff from academic research that's extremely useful in the terms of user experience design that you know should be built into some guidelines that people can um have at their fingertips you know in a kind of brief uh and on the other hand that limits people from really experimenting and doing new things and I think now with like the rise of JavaScript that people can really prototype stuff quickly and determine what they want but on the other hand there's this kind of uniform user experience that everybody's using constantly um so unlike the early web where you're just experimenting with that whatever you wanted um we kind of have these standards that are arriving and some of them are really good and some of them are limiting um I like the idea that I can say user experience and people know about it now um and that there's conferences that support it um but on the other hand we're still stuck with a lot of bad user interfaces and I think it's just kind of like the fashion industry there's going to be some people that lead it and then there's going to be a bunch of copycats that do something that looks like it's good like there's a lot of beautiful like infographics and a lot of beautiful user experience that isn't necessarily um usable it looks good and that tricks people into thinking that it's good when in reality it's not usable in fact I always point to craigslist as something that's super usable because it works on an old computer it works on a crappy browser it works on your mobile phone anybody can use it has low bandwidth right or like in china there's we chat which is built originally on irc for really low bandwidth conditions so I think there I hope there might be a shift to um things that uh don't load three megabytes of javascript in the browser and like have good user experience and load the data first um but we're always going to to run through these waves of it's crappy it's okay it's crappy it's okay and there's always going to be you know maybe 10 percent of the apps out there that are going to be reasonably good and then a bunch of people who built things that aren't that good and that's just human nature um so I kind of think of it like a bunch of different animals and species that are competing with each other in new and weird environments and thankfully we as humans can decide which technology we want to use sometimes until we get trapped into things like you know facebook where the user experience changes on us and we don't have any control over that versus building our own websites so that's a long and squirrely answer I hope that answers your question a little bit um you uh you need to yeah oh no no please it's a short question so uh I'd like to ask what is the degree of association between current technology and invisible technology okay so the question about common invisible technology so there's this idea with invisible technology that technology is completely unseen um which is interesting if you if you think about okay we're gonna put little sensors everywhere in the city and then we're going to monitor um uh toxicity levels the best thing to do is take somebody's phone that already has those sensors and have it run an app that just records these levels or have people you know set something on their phone um the issue with invisible technology is that it's it's kind of a it's it's more of a binary at that point where it's like technology should be completely invisible right it's like no no no no we need moderation technology it doesn't need to be completely invisible it should be invisible sometimes and it should be communicative sometimes um and there's some cases in which you need to take something that's invisible and make it visible so just saying the you know and and I I'm I take some responsibility for this because there was a talk that I gave that talked about the interface should be invisible and you should be able to walk into this invisible button and should give you information which I apologize for it's not necessarily that it should always be invisible but sometimes it can be um where you can make a boundary that's invisible you can make a piece of technology that's somewhat invisible um but it needs to be in moderation so calm technology is about saying here's the times in which it can be invisible here's the times in which it should be loud like a tea kettle shouting at you when it's an emergency and then um here's the times in which you know it should be this other thing with audio um and so I think it's more encompassing of the whole spectrum of technology than just these little tiny pieces where we have people who've come up and say hey it should be invisible or no it should be ubiquitous or no it should be this so I tried to go all the way back in time and say who has talked about something that's like a holistic perspective instead of just these little tiny points in the dark and so that's why um I think it's more encompassing so it's for your question okay okay and I and I won't be uh I won't be long for him okay so um I'm a biologist and from a biology point of view um from a Darwinian point of view the more we adapt the more we survive and that's how we've survived for so long if we continue being humans and just follow the same old user interface that we've been following take standards would that make us lose our adaptation don't we actually need to keep adapting to newer technology and incorporate it rather than just accept what we are oh this is a good question uh first off I think we need to okay okay okay I'll store that and I'm compulsive about time so I'm gonna sorry okay this is a completely unrelated question uh so this calm technology is really necessary because uh for example we see apple products against uh android and and some people just hate apple products because they're too simplistic and and they want to be have more control uh so so even if the user's experience is a little bit better a little bit simpler to use some people still want to go to common prompt and and and just to type and have exactly what they want so uh I remember people with uh when the vcrs were selling and and and and uh features were about programming vcrs and and and the more complex the more expensive it is but most people couldn't use it but but it was still a compelling thing to upsell so so probably maybe it's just you you have a calm technology it's easier to use but you need the features so that's a wonderful wonderful question I'm gonna answer that one first and I'll answer your question um okay so there's the idea this is kind of um this is not necessarily a true story but is a great urban legend uh there is this um I forgot her name oh Lucy Suchman at Xerox park who came in and said no one can use these printers there's too many options on them why don't you put a button a big green button on the front that just says print and copy and that's not exactly how it went down but the idea is that most people need to just use that button that one button and then there's a bunch of other people that want to tweak all the features so the idea with calm technology is not to stop giving people choices or making a completely simplistic thing or remove the command line it's about um exposing these features to people in a calm way so in the one case I want to have you know I I like windows a lot because I can completely change the experience um but I also like um Mac for just getting stuff done really fast um and so you know but I want to change everything around so the number one thing is give people choice and in you know in kind of an open competitive software world there will be choices um and then you know make for 80 percent of the people who want it a very simple feature of here's the thing that you want to do but don't obscure all of those ways to change the system and of course it's going to be harder to make a system where you can change all the things and expose those controls to people but then you allow people to design the experience they want let's say I had a system that said okay um I'm gonna have every time somebody text message messages me and I'm in the car it'll send them a text message back that says I'm driving okay that's interesting for some people but if it locks me in that way and I can't change the type of alert that I want then the system is being more controlling of me than it should be right so it's here's a default pattern that you can easily change so that doesn't like override or make decisions for you um so in the case of a lot of apple technology it kind of makes the decision for you about how you'll interact with something and a lot of people have these blog posts about how to change the default interaction mode on an apple because they don't like it and so I think it's important to think about that whole spectrum um and you know give people more choices but do it in an elegant way in a computer game you know the first level is always about you know do these things in a simple way and then you get all the complexity and all you know the bag of extra holding and then more capacity and then more tools and you learn it over time and it's the same way with like a lot of this technology where you need to start simple as a wedge and then you can add these features and you just need to add them in a way that doesn't cause people panic um so you know you could put all those extra controls underneath a little flap that you open and you're like oh look here's the extra controls on a vcr which some vcrs ended up doing we're in the same era again where people are getting upsold on all these extra features that aren't necessarily useful and sometimes it's causing people to be terrified because they just need to do the one thing so thanks thanks for the question um so your question I think that we should go to Mars because we only have one um one hard drive for humans right now and we need to have additional backup hard drives um and you know once if this one fails or there's some catastrophic thing that happens we don't have a backup um so I think I think it's important to realize that we've always been evolving with technology and we can't disassociate that um and it's our weird human tendency to say okay well it's the end of the industrial revolution and there's a bunch of horses crapping all over the streets and we're having a big problem in places like New York and London and then the Model 2 forward comes around um and you know slowly changes that you know I think if humans more is like these soft crustations that put on like external appendages in the morning and like these exoskeletons to drive places um we're not necessarily that strong in and of ourselves you know it's really hard for humans to survive in nature anymore and it's okay you know but but it's this symbiotic relationship so the nicer we are to people through the technology the better interfaces we make the easier it's going to be adapt to adapt to these new systems um maybe we should do a conversation on that but I'm gonna not I'm gonna stop