 Hello, everybody. I can't see all of you because of my phone, but I'm glad you're here. So I'm Nell Hauser. I use she, they pronouns and I am the executive director here at All Brains Belong to welcome to Brain Club. I'll share screen and get us oriented. So tonight we'll be discussing overcoming internalized ableism. This, of course, is Brain Club, our community conversation on everyday brain life, our educational space for the collective ABB community to educate about neurodiversity and topics related to inclusive community. This is for education purposes only. This is not for medical or mental health advice and this is not a support group. All forms of participation are okay. As many of you have figured out, you can have your video on or off and even if it's on, we don't expect anything of you. We certainly don't need you to look at the camera and I as host, I'm not even turning on the lights today. So do what needs doing, whatever you need to be most comfortable. All formats of communication, whatever you are, however you are, most comfortable communicating is welcome here. You can unmute and use mouth words. You can type in the chat and in addition to affirming all aspects of identity, it's really important to us that we are queuing safety and protecting and respecting the group's collective access needs. So if there's anything that you feel uncomfortable about for any reason, Lizzie Parrot, our education programs coordinator is here. Hi, Lizzie. She will see direct messages more quickly than I will, especially with my phone. So send a private message to Lizzie so that we can take action to address your needs. Speaking of access needs, we are, it's very important to us that we queue safety for people with a broad range of communication access needs. Many of us need space, need time for processing and so we'll be really intentional about pausing through Outboarding Club to give folks an opportunity to reflect and join conversation in one's own way, whether that be with mouth words or in the chat and there's no right way to participate. And so observation is a valid form of participation by any means and for those who want to be interacting, we want to make sure that we're giving space and time for that. Okay, last bit of access, closed captioning is enabled. You just have to toggle it on if you'd like to use it. So depending on your version of Zoom, look for the live transcript closed captioning icon and if you don't see that, try more dot, dot, dot and choose show subtitles. You can do the same and choose hide subtitles if you want to turn them off. Okay, and that's my visual support to remind me to open up the chat box. All right, great. Okay, here we go. Actually, before we go, I want to make an announcement, especially for folks who were not here last week. Last week we launched our new resource, Everything's Connected to Everything, Improving the Healthcare of Autistic and ADHD Adults. This was created with support from the organization on Autism Research and HRSA, the Autism Intervention Research Network for Physical Health Grant. This is a free resource about Autistic and ADHD health. Autistic and ADHD people commonly experience a constellation of intertwined medical conditions. And unfortunately, there are barriers within the healthcare system that get in the way of clinicians being able to Zoom out and address multiple medical problems in a single visit. And unfortunately, with this particular pattern of intertwined medical conditions, some of the medical management for some parts of the constellation make other parts worse. And so we created this resource as, hi Monique, I'm glad you're here too, welcome. We created this resource over the past year, co-created with input from more than 100 Autistic and ADHD folks in our community about what helps, what doesn't help, and merge that lived experience of evidence-based medicine. So resources for clinicians and the community at large. So we invite you to check it out, okay. So we this month have been discussing the theme of interdependence, the idea of how normal and healthy it is to be connected to and rely on other people. And one of the themes that we've been discussing through the month is how much unlearning has to be done around how many of us were, the messages we got growing up, the way that independence is overly glorified, even as young children, and that this is reinforced in school growing up for lots of people and in relationships and at work and so much unlearning collectively to reimagine what community looks like. Because for all of the struggles, humans are not meant to struggle alone. And so in bringing folks together to collectively learn and unlearn, sorry, my phone just fell over. Okay, here we go. So ableism. So like any other ism, this is referring to the discriminatory belief. And in this case, the discriminatory belief that it is superior to be abled. There may be some intentional aspects of this, but so much is subtle, unintentional, just the way that this is normed and communicated explicitly and implicitly throughout life. And when we think about, especially when we think about the intersectionality of all of the different ways in which humans are othered in this society, it's important that we talk about all of the isms. And this one is often missing from ongoing social justice conversations. So internalized ableism refers to the internalized belief that it is superior to be abled. And so where this shows up, is it shows up in so many places. It's often a theme of an individual's self-talk, that narrative that goes on throughout the day of expectations on oneself and the resultant shame that comes from that. And especially when we think about, I'm gonna skip a little, there we go. The disability rather than the medical model of disability, where the problem is what's wrong with the person, the social model of disability refers to barriers in the environment. So the issue is that an individual is being thwarted by their access needs not being met. And so when it comes to visible disability, disabilities that you can tell just by looking, an example might be that if someone who uses a wheelchair or purchase a building that has a ramp, they're gonna have less disability than if they approach a building that does not have a ramp. And so it is with invisible disability as well. And with that, David is going to queue up a video, a video, this video I think will run about 20, 25 minutes, maybe 20 minutes, we'll have the chat box going throughout. And this is an excerpt from the last time we addressed this topic at Brain Club in December. Some of you may see yourselves, here we go. So, because in fact, that's what tonight is about. And related to Laura's really helpful comment to prompt me to remind us all that there may be some, content-oriented in the topics, all that, even if you're prepared for the topic, that doesn't mean that you may not have an Olympic responses to your own thoughts, even that might come up during this topic. And so please, take care of yourself. You can leave at any time and always, always at any of our programs. You can take a break, come back. This might just all be too much, because for many of us, these are really loaded and often really painful concepts. So what are we talking about? Shane, for those of you who know Brene Brown, this by the way, image of Brene Brown's book, I thought it was just me, but it isn't making the journey from what will people think to I am enough? This is one of my favorite books of all time. Brene Brown is a researcher, a sociology researcher who studies shame and vulnerability. And Brene Brown says that there are really all roads lead to shame. Shame is this universal emotion of feeling, the profoundly painful negative emotional experience of feeling defective, broken, deficient. And in this book, I very much encourage reading or listening to it, but I will summarize it for you. In this book, Dr. Brown breaks us down into four buckets. The first thing is like learning how to recognize shame because often some of our most intense, limbic, involuntary, automatic responses, when we recover and reacquire access to our cortex to really think about the circumstances that led to these reactions, almost always this relates to shame. So as soon as we can, or as soon as we can recognize shame, meaning it, acknowledging it is a powerful way of coping with it. And then she goes on to say, well, step two, tell someone, I'm feeling shame. Because when you do that, almost always someone says, oh, well, that reminds me of that time I experienced this or in some other version of me too. And automatically that the secrecy, the perceived aloneness of that painful emotion is diminished, even just a little bit. And then, and these are like the complicated parts. This comes like way later. If you can get to step one, awesome. Step two, really helpful, but like advanced shame management. Step three, doing the work of reflection of like, why? Why did this trigger this sense of shame or this come from? And the bigger picture of you, the zoomed out view, how was I set up by my culture, by my environment to be triggered by this thing? And I'm gonna play a video. I'd say this when we did this in March, but I've played this for some of our patients too. And I'll be interested to hear what, if any of this resonates. I never do the thing where I click the share the sound button. Here we go. One, take a shower. You don't wanna smell. Two, pick out an outfit that will fit in with the latest trends and won't make you the laughing stock of the school more than you already are. Three, put on some makeup so you can actually show your face in public and be a little bit pretty. You can't even recognize yourself and your face tingles with an unrelievable issue. You can't satisfy, otherwise you'll have ruined the hours of meticulous painting you applied to your hideous face. Four, don't forget to style your hair in elegant curls. You can't let everyone at school see how your hair frizzes up like an electrocuted monkey, naturally. Five, shove your fat feet into those toe-pitching, blood blistering converse that everyone at school is wearing and you cannot be the odd one out. As you gaze into the bathroom mirror, you see a stranger that somehow stole your reflection and replaced it with a completely different girl. Every part of your outfit is uncomfortable, but even though you spend hours trying to look pretty, you will never be as good as those other girls at school. You are actually holding back a few tears, but you feel like you are holding back a tsunami of emotion. You can't let anyone else know that you feel otherwise they will never respect you the same way they used to. Or did they ever? Why am I not good enough? Beauty is pain. Six, get off the bus. Seven, find a group of people you can walk to class with because heaven knows you can't just walk alone. But you don't even like these people. They cuss in the make dirty jokes a lot and they laugh and make fun of you. You know you shouldn't hang out with them, but hey, they are the popular kids and you just want people to like you like they like them. I'm curious, anybody connect with any of that or any chapter of your life past or present? Mel, I have a thought. Yeah. Over the past few months, I've been going through some struggles and it's been a help because it's allowed me to spend a lot of time thinking about my life and the fact that my learning disability wasn't diagnosed until I was 40. And so the main thing that I came up with and it's a strength-based reframe of a struggle, across my life. My life had to been filled with all of these moments where people asked me questions like, why can't you learn? Why can't you do this? You've done this wrong. Why didn't you do this? And just maybe in the past day or so, the idea hit me. It wasn't that I didn't or was unable to. It was because I couldn't because I didn't have the right kind of help. And what that has done for me has opened up a really deep well of empathy for that kid who worked so hard and struggled so much because I didn't know to ask for help and people didn't know what I needed help with. And now, as a 51-year-old, the thing that I'm most proud of is that I'm becoming much better at asking for help. And so with the empathy for the child and the strength, Brene Brown talks about bravery not existing without vulnerability and the bravery it takes to ask for help in the normative world. I have in a way come home to myself and found strength that I didn't know existed but always has. And it's really helped me reframe my moments moving through my day and all of this thinking started with you mentioning the term access needs where I started to be able to form language around how I could ask for help. So, you know, yeah, so that's my idea. But it's not that we can't, it's that we couldn't. Oh, that is so powerful. And Laura's sharing in the chat agreeing, this is so common, right? So like, when little kids come up in the world, you know, there's a message given, not just implicitly, it's like explicitly given, right? Like, this is how you do the thing. Why can't you do that thing? As though there's one correct way to do that thing and you're not it. And like, how could this not have a profoundly toxic traumatic impact on a sweet little love's life? And then like, what do you think was gonna happen? Reading in the chat, Kelly saying, once I considered things as access needs, it gave me permission to explain my needs. Yes, yes. And thinking about, you know, any time, you know, we put the onus on the person to come up with their own accommodations for their access needs, that's not right. That's ableism. Like, things should just be offered in multiple different ways. And so speaking of ableism, I'm gonna play one more video because when I looked back to the last time we tackled this at Brain Club, I think with our grown village here, it'll be, you know, some of you are here tonight, we're here the last time, but it'll be just really interesting to see the lens. I'll be very curious for your responses. And I'm just reading in the chat, Laura's saying, this all resonates with me too in different ways. My experience as a kid wanting to fit in and even being willing to change myself to do so, but not being able to fit in even when trying to change a lot of myself. And then finally learning to embrace who I was because I didn't seem to have much of an alternative, but I think I was lucky to have the resources to embrace myself ultimately. Yeah, Matthew's agreeing too. Kelly saying, I put myself in scary situations trying to fit in. I have such a hard time reading people to even know what they wanted for me. Oh yeah. Thank you all for sharing. Oops, I'm, yeah, okay, here we go. It's an everyday language. The actions in everyday language, the simple assumptions that are made about how like, well, everyone does this, this way, or everyone can do that, or that's so easy. You think about how many times subtle privilege infuses into everyday life that is going to contribute to a narrative of brokenness. Because how could it not? When we as kids don't know that the way we fundamentally and intuitively inherently are is a thing, we're gonna make up a narrative. And we're gonna reinforce it, reinforce it, reinforce it. And now here we are as adults trying to unlearn that. And it's hard though, it's hard though because it's so hardwired and especially when we're dysregulated, we're gonna default to those hardwired beliefs that narrative we came up with in childhood. By taking on this lens of just like recognizing it, it's the opportunity to like, view your own everyday interactions differently. And I'll give some examples in a minute. Because that internalized ableism, that fundamental belief of not being good enough, being defective, being broken, that is, how is that not going to impact, not just self-concept, self-esteem, but like all the interpersonal relationships, personal and professional, all of these interactions. And at least being able to zoom out and say, oh, what's the story I'm telling myself? Where did it come from? And is it ableism? So here's the story. I don't know guys if you can see this picture. This is me with chocolate syrup all over my coat and my pants and I used to have been wearing a dress. I was on my way to work the other day and I stopped at a restaurant to pick up some takeout. I am dyspraxic and I know that motor coordination when I'm stressed and running around and rushing and carrying things, like, I mean, it's gonna take more brain power that I did not have available. So when I pick up the takeout, I said, hey, can I have a bag? You know what she says? She says, oh, well those bags are, they're big. You know, it'd be a lot easier just to like hold it. So when I tell the story, like, obviously I can name the thing, but in the moment, me, even though I'm someone who knows that I've been with this all the day, I say, oh yeah, I should be able to carry that. So I carry the thing and I'm holding the bag and I'm holding the box and I'm holding the keys and like, what do you think happens? I am covered in sauce and, you know, I can tell the story with a little bit of a smirk and a little bit of a, you know, and it's all right. But now I'm gonna tell you the story of the seven-year-old sweet little love. I'm at a child last week who told me, Dr. Mel, I'm bad. And I said, what do you mean? You're a sweet little love. What do you mean? My teacher hates me. What do you mean? I mean, she's probably just dysregulated. Everybody's dysregulated. It's all okay, everybody's just raised by the thing. No, it's me. I pick up her energy and I say, oh, maybe she's just energetic. She yells at me. She yells at me because I'm running around all the time and I can't stop moving. And I say, oh, sweet little love. You have the kind of brain that learns better when you're moving. You have the kind of brain that actually when you're moving, your little internal GPS in your ear actually processes auditory information better. Oh, you sweet little love, you have figured out how to attend and regulate and learn. And he says, she gave me a frowny face for the day. What do you mean frowny face? Well, I get a happy face when I'm good for the day and a frowny face when I'm bad. I said, what does it mean to be good and bad? And he says, well, when I flip my lid, I get a frowny face. But sweet little love, you're telling me that when you flip your lid because the environment, oh, sorry, I forgot this detail. Recess was taken away because the work was not done. Gotta skip recess to do the work. The work that wasn't able to be done because the movement was inhibited and prevented and prohibited. So you didn't do the work because the environment would not allow you to do the work in your way. And then punished by taking away the very thing that your brain needed. And then you get a frowny face because you flipped your lid because all of the regulatory mechanisms that you yourself were seeking out, you were told they were bad. Oh my goodness. Anyway, I started crying during the visit and I tell this story like all the time now because it is everywhere. It is everywhere. When we tell sweet little loves that the way that we are intuitively feeling in our bodies is wrong because there's a just so way to be, what do we expect is gonna happen? You know, that's such a touching story and I feel it's so sad because it's stunting the potential of so many amazing people. Any, you know, when you don't have a disability but you grow up with these message like, oh, you know, why didn't you do better? You know, and so on, it's stunting. But imagine when you face it days and then days out because you're just not feeling the norm of that little perfect little behavior that is not stressing anybody else, you know, so that they don't have to take care of themselves. It just really saddens me. And I'm working with some students at UVM, you know, that I see coming in my office and talking to them. And I hear them repeat those negative stories to themselves. And I always write on the board when we talk and that there's one student says, oh, it's so helpful seeing it written because I can see how it's not really me, you know, how it comes from outside. And so I just do that when the person talk, I just kind of write on the board and it's like, okay. And after it's let out, then you can move on. But yeah, that internalized ableism is like a big deal. Zef shared with me one time the picture of, or this idea of lifting yourself by your bootstrap. There, I never realized that's something we hear all the time. That it's actually something that's impossible. And then it used to be to bring attention to something that was not possible. And somehow we twisted it around to become this like, wonderful thing we're striving to do. I mean, nobody can pull themselves off by their bootstraps. See, there's no like counter pressure, right? You can't lift yourself out of the mud. You need like that outside help to pull you up. So I think there's a lot of work to do with parents, future parents. So they from the start, don't keep breathing that internalized chain. Right, but the tricky thing, and thank you for all of that, Lillian, the tricky part is this. One is most people with disabilities don't know they have disabilities. So you are given the message. You don't know you have needs. You're not doing the thing that's a lie. Right, and as Laura says, the importance of universal design for everything, right? And so then what happens to us? We become parents maybe, and we have that internalized ableism. And we still don't know we have disabilities maybe and we pass about that. I mean, we pass that and it's the intergenerational expectations and that internalized ableism gets passed down. So many parents that are really attached to the idea of being able to do the thing, that comes from a place of being shamed for not being able to do the thing. Like it's like you gotta zoom way out and like re-haul the entire thing, because it's not a matter. I don't think it's a matter of like education. It's about you have like someone's gotta become self aware and regulated and safe enough to take a look at their own self narrative before we even have a chance at interrupting that cycle. As Laura said, it's so much more core to the self because like I truly believe there's not one right to do the thing, but you know what happened today when my sweet little love was flipping her lid? Downstairs brain decided to pull out the automatic script of using your words. Me, I said that, it came out of my mouth. It did not come from my upstairs brain, it came from a downstairs brain. What automatic speech is? It comes back to all those ableist messages we got as kids and then we shame ourselves and we're more dysregulated and then we still don't have access to our cortex and it just goes on and on and on. But I think the difference is of just like this is gonna happen. It's gonna happen and it's just transparency is the way out of chaos. Thanks, David. Oh, that was tough to watch. What's standing out for anyone? K-Trap. Hi to Scott. Sure. So with my little Jacob who's almost five, sorry. There's all these little things that I help him with throughout the day and sometimes out of the blue, he'll just do the thing by himself and it's really easy for me to be like, hey, good job, you just did this thing by yourself. But I caught myself just yesterday and I just stayed quiet and just let it be like a neutral thing because I realized that if I said, hey, good job doing this by yourself, then the opposite of that is you weren't doing a great job when you needed my help. And like how often little kids' age must get that message constantly because we want to reward them for growing. Sorry, I can't talk much more. Thank you, Travis. And I think that this is constant. Ooh, you did this, you did that. It's the good job. It's all of that. And as Sarah says in the chat, the pressure for independence. The, maybe the adult extension of that, the story about the chocolate syrup brought the idea of something I'm beginning to notice and work with and try to be gentle with myself around over-promising in order to, I don't know, perform at a level that is more normative, which then makes my brain tired. That's it. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. It's a lot of unlearning. I mean, even me at the beginning of Brain Club is supposed to start to come in. I asked our team, that's like, do I have to turn the lights on? I feel like I need to turn the lights on. I have the kind of brain that is having a hard time with lights right now. And this is like what I do for a living. And I still was like the pressure to do the thing according to normative expectations. Of course, in our culture of interdependence, I got huge safety from our team to be like, now the lights stay off. But when you don't have that feedback and you don't have a community to help you do that unlearning, it's very, very hard. Stere, I think you're talking, but you're- Sorry, there's no sound. Oh, there you go. Okay, yeah, yeah. Sorry about that. We've been teaching our 15-year-old to drive lately. And it's been really interesting talking about the over-reactions, the limbic responses to like, no, no, no, you're gonna crash. And how like, I know that's maybe a excessive reaction for the circumstance. And I know that probably makes it worse for him driving, but I also need to do that sometimes. And kind of talking about that, you can have these limbic responses, you can have these kind of pretty big reactions conflicting access needs exactly. And it doesn't mean that the world's gonna end. Right, and I think for those who experience rejection-sensitive dysphoria, I don't know, but if you can type that in the chat as a search term, when someone has an involuntary automatic reaction like that, there may be a nervous system response to that response. I think even if it's a subtle reaction, I think a lot of people are sensitive enough to be able to tune into that. Totally. I think that reminds me of the comments in the chat kind of during the videos talking about schools and labeling kids as either having a bad day or a good day or making them apologize to the adults who probably were giving them that subtle rejection all day or whatever that looks like. What's coming up for others? I have the kind of brain that doesn't feel the passing of time. So I'm trying to get objective feedback from looking at the lower right corner of my computer screen to tell me that really it hasn't even been 30 seconds and it feels like 10 minutes. Hi, it's Monique here. Hi. Well, this is my first time here and just a little bit of context. I'm 56 and I was just this year. It was confirmed that I'm autistic and I've known for more than a decade but no one's believed me because hey, I look really capable but if people had just paid attention they would have seen the shambles of my life and how much I'm struggling but people just saw the facade. So I am currently looking back with a new lens at my life and boy, when I look at the little girl and what I survived and how I coped it is a real emotional journey. I have so much love and softness for myself and the crap that I navigated but I wanted to share a little bit of a high five celebration moment. This past weekend I did a big thing and I had to take, I had two medical emergencies with my cat and my dog and they're my world and both of them got sick at the same time. So my dog, I had to take to a vet clinic on the other side of the city and I don't drive and I can't use public transit. So I rode my bike and I felt like a hero. Like it was a heroic effort to get across the city by bike at 4.30 in the morning. It was actually a really nice ride but besides the point, I made it through, I had a really emotional, it was about four or five days of an emotional struggle, distress and crisis and I'm really exhausted today. My eyes hurt but I feel like I wanna high five everybody but I wanna walk up and down my street and high five people, like I want a trophy for what I accomplished this past weekend and I want to share that. Thank you, I'm really glad for this group. Like already within 47 minutes I'm recognizing peers who understand and get it and this is blowing my mind. I love that story so much as a therapist and as somebody who's so proud and honored to serve as board chair of this organization to hear you really recognizing the strength in your struggle and what that strength enabled you to do to help your pets in a way that my brain finds absolutely overwhelming but your story is so much a part of why we exist because when we don't hear the stories of other people's strengths, whose brains work differently, it's harder to see it in ourselves so I just wanted to say thank you. Thank you, Matt and Monique, thank you for sharing that. I can only speak for myself but like I'm high-fiving right back at you, that's amazing. And I think that just as Matt said, it's very difficult to recognize strengths. It's also so isolating to be in struggle and to think that you're the only one. And so hearing Monique's language about like, you know, no one's able to look around and see the shambles of my life, like that's so many people's narrative. And when people come together in community here and name the thing and all the me twos that follow, it's such a game changer to know that you're not the only one and you never were. I don't know if this goes along with the theme but it's been something that's been rattling around in my brain for a little while and I was like knowing that I wanted to share it with Brainy Club. So and driving brought this up thinking because my son's 14, he's gonna be 15 next year. And so driving is kind of, and he's not really expressing a lot of interest in it but we're trying to kind of talk about driving while we're driving to kind of gauge the interest. And we happen to be, my husband was driving and we were behind this car that had like three bikes attached to it. And that prompted me to say, oh, you know, when I'm driving, I really have to, I personally have to focus a little bit more because the bikes in front of me reminded me I was behind another car that had bikes attached but one wheel was spinning and I just got so entranced at looking at the spinning wheel and reminding myself, no, you gotta look everywhere else. You gotta look at the other places. And I was like, and I got myself away from looking at the wheel and I was kind of proud of myself and I continued driving but you know, that's something that you kind of have to be attention to when you have a mind that kind of likes to focus on more than one thing that sometimes you have to prioritize what you're focusing on. And my husband turns and he looked at me and he was like, that makes me really nervous about you driving. And it has just stuck with me and I didn't even say anything back because I was just so like, wow, I thought that was like a good story. Like I thought that was like a positive like pay attention to the road, not the tire story but he heard it completely different. And so I'm like, I don't know if I, if I said it wrong or like I just, I don't know, it turned into, here I was thinking I was like sharing like one autistic experience to a future autistic driver story and it turned into like, is he really worried about me driving? Like, should I not have shared that with him? Because after I've got my diagnosis, I began opening up a bit more to my friends and specifically my husband and just kind of sharing a bit more of the thought process of why I've done this thing in this way or hey, this is the reason I've been stirring up the wall for 19 minutes because I've been thinking about these 47 things and now I'm gonna run them by and instead it's, instead quite often the reaction is that makes me worried or how do you manage or you know, instead of like seeing the positive of like, hey, this is the really long path I took from A to B, but here I am at point B. Yay! And so I don't know if I'm like voicing things wrong or if just it's not easy to understand the experience if you don't understand the experience, I guess, that's... Kelly, both Sierra and I as you were speaking we're adding in the chat that like, we get that constantly. So yeah, so I don't think you voiced your experience wrong. I don't think there is a wrong way to voice your experience. It's your experience. It's literally how it is for you. And I think this is an example of what we've been talking about of like, ableism and the idea that I think it's very subtle. I think that, you know, if I got the message which I did, that there's one correct way to drive and it's like, you know, pay attention, quiet, doing nothing, shut the music off or like whatever. My brain figured out that there were, just as you did, figured out things that strategies that helped your brain do the thing. And then for there to be judgment of those things that's the same story of the seven year old who was moving in school and was told to sit still and then couldn't do the work and then was told they couldn't go to recess. Like it's the same exact story over and over and over and over again. I have a suggestion and I don't know, but, you know, statements can be rough and they can have an impact. Questions, curiosity very often can be more gentle. Mel, you're muted. Sorry, I unmuted the wrong me. Anyway, there's two of me in the Zoom. Yeah, I think that seeking to understand someone's experience and is skipped a lot I think because of conflicting access needs. If you have, if a person has a way of seeing the world that makes them feel safe and something comes that challenges that I think just like Sierra's describing when you're the passenger and a car of a new driver and the involuntary, ah, it's an involuntary. Yeah, you can't do that because it makes me feel unsafe. So it's just naming the thing. It's not that one person is right and one person is wrong. It's just that both people have to have awareness that we're really talking about conflicting access needs, which is what we're almost always talking about in interpersonal conflict. So what I would also say is that I think this feeds very much into our brain club theme for September. And we do have one more week in August that I'll tell you about next, but September, we're gonna be revisiting the theme of bridging the double empathy problem. That's a term coined by an autistic social scientist, Dr. Damian Milton, it's the idea that it's not that there's there's one group of people that have normal social skills and then there's the autistic people. It's that autistic versus non-autistic people have a mismatch of worldview and a mismatch of communication style and then like all the ways that plays out in life. And so in September, we'll be talking about how does that play out in healthcare? How does that play out in relationship? How does that play out in education? And so anyway, thanks for setting me up to share that. And then in the meantime, next week is our monthly brain club book chat. So next week, we have our first guest, actually our second, our second guest author. It'll be an asynchronous presentation by Sandhya Menon from Australia doing, because of the time difference, we did a prerecorded interview and she read her book to us. It's a book called The Rainbow Brain about the intersection of autism and ADHD. And it's incredible, I cried as she read it. And I can't wait to share this with you. So with that, thank you all so much for coming and we hope to see you next Tuesday for The Rainbow Brain. Bye everybody, thank you so much.