 Today, we're going to talk about Joran VanderSloot and Greg wants to tell us about the videos we're going to watch. Yeah. So the videos are, let's give a little bit of backstory. There's a young woman who went missing, an 18-year-old who went missing on the 30th of May, 2005, and this guy was the last person to see her alive, supposedly. We don't know that. We just are basing it on what's been reported. There were two interviews that we're using today, very different in their style and very different in their content. On February 22, 2006, there was an exclusive interview on ABC News Prime Time with a very young Chris Cuomo. And then in 2005, before this one, there was a VanderSloot interview for a current affair, a TV show that was pretty popular in those days, and it's a very different kind of interview. I think you'll enjoy both different styles. After all of this, this young man was, I believe, in Chile, but he went into another casino and eventually bludgeoned to death a young woman on the fifth anniversary of the disappearance of Natalie Holloway. There's been a lot going on, and now he's being extradited to the U.S. to face charges for extortion associated with trying to get money to tell her mother where Natalie's body is. It's just after one o'clock in the morning in Aruba, 17-year-old Yoran VanderSloot and 18-year-old Natalie Holloway have been drinking in a nightclub and are now in the backseat of a car on the way to his house, being driven by his two friends. Unusual for you to be in the backseat of the car with two other guys kind of driving you when you're with another girl? With one other girl, yes. But they were okay with it? They were okay with it. Did they ever say, hey, she doesn't seem right to us, let's just drop her off? No, never. Then Yoran has second thoughts. He decides not to take Natalie to his house because, he says, his father and brothers are sleeping. Then he says Natalie has an idea to go to the lighthouse on the North Coast to see sharks. You say Natalie said she wanted to see sharks? Yeah. A lot of sharks around Aruba? No, no sharks at all. But she thought she wanted to see sharks? Yeah. And I don't know. I told her there's no sharks on Aruba. And she's like, no, no, no, there's sharks on Aruba, there's sharks on Aruba. So I leaned up and I told Deepak to go ahead and drive to the lighthouse. I was talking to her the whole time. And so she was basically telling me stuff about her life. So jazz? That where she's from, where she went to school, how old she was. Still with it? Still making sense? Still making sense. The only thing she said that didn't make sense was about wanting to see sharks. And she told me she was talking about her mom. And she told me her mom was Hitler's sister. What does that mean? I have no clue what that means. And I don't know what it means. All right, Mark, where do you got? Okay, let's go more towards the end of that little clip there. And I'm going to invoke Godwin's law. What is Godwin's law? It's when somebody glibly uses a Nazi comparison in some kind of debate. Godwin came up with it to kind of stop debates that were getting off the rails. Essentially, when somebody makes a comparison to Hitler or Nazis in order to try and put people off their step, I think this is exactly what this person's doing here by going, well, she said that her mother was Hitler's sister. I mean, it's it is a bizarre thing to bring up at the end. I do invoke Godwin's law on it. Why? Because I think he already knows he's going to lose this debate. Let's see. I've never seen this before. Let's see what happens. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah. So, Mark, I'm going to pick up on exactly what you just said and take it a step further. Pay attention to how often we hear any word that Natalie said in this entire series of videos. This is the time you'll hear words she said. Interesting. Why? Don't know. But it's a baseline issue for me that if you don't use a person's words unless it's something discriminatory against your family, I'm probably wanting to know what's going on in your head. So that he's right out of the gate doing what Scott and I have always called Romancer. The hard eye lock is he's paying attention. What he's doing is looking to see if you believe him or not. In later videos, his forehead's a lot more involved. I wonder if he's taken something to make him calmer in this because he has low forehead involvement. When he's talking about one girl, yes, he does a clarifying question. This guy's self-amused as he's talking. You want to say self-amused? Look at that smile as he's talking about sharks. And this is his first eye contact break and some flush cheeks as he's talking about that. And he's showing this piece. Does it mean anything? No, not necessarily. But it means that we need to pay very close attention moving forward. He's awfully comfortable for somebody his age in front of a camera in 2005. Now, people in front of cameras all the time now. But I would look to see if he has any preparation or that. And then the last part, you seem to do a weird little tongue thing inside his mouth. A lot of this tongue movement, I think, is just self-grooming for the camera. And it's kind of baseline for him. Chase, what do you got? So, on what Greg just said there, one thing you hear us talk about a lot here is how important baseline is. Now, if someone's telling you to look for little special signals without developing any kind of baseline, you might be listening to somebody who's got some knowledge but not actual skill. So just really quick, a baseline is just a set of known behavioral characteristics in a particular environment. And most of the time, it's truthful, relaxed environments. But many times, all four of us will develop a baseline of stress. How does this person react in a stressful situation? So I don't really have a baseline here. So I'm not going to jump to a lot of conclusions. But there's two things that stood out to me here. The first is when he's asked about his friends saying some things off, like we should drop her off. There's an emotional accessing eye movement which would explain, we'll explain maybe in a clip coming up, and there's an uncharacteristic lip retraction. One of the lips goes into the mouth instead of just licking. We tend to retract our lips into the mouth where there's reassurance needed. So this is maybe a lack of confidence here, I think so. And second, at the end of the video, Cuomo asked him, what does that mean in response to being told about the young woman's mom being Hitler's sister? I guess that would make her Hitler's niece. I don't know. So right here is where we have a serious issue. There's a lack of reasonable detail in the answer. And the answer is chock full of deception markers like word repetition and phrase repetition. I don't know much about the case, like at all. But there's a lot of red flags here in terms of behavior. And I'll link the scientific research for those things that we just talked about in the description below. Scott. All right, the first two answers are repeated almost word for word. What the question was and the answer for both of those is no. You can answer just the simple no for each one of those questions. That high hard eye contact and repetitive answers that quite soft answering. Those are immediate red flags and heads up for cues that suggest there's an issue here. Doesn't necessarily mean he's lying, but it lets us know something's going on there. Always talking about sharks. Some people are going to be under the impression. He's he's showing Dupers delight. I think what we're seeing is a combination of that and just his confidence in which is the basis or basics of Dupers delight in believing that he's gotten away with it. So I think that's why we're seeing confidence in that. That's what it is in my opinion. And then he continues to talk about the conversation they had. His blink rate goes way up and his cadence speeds up. Everything gets his voice tone gets stronger. Everything changes right in there. This this looks to me like excuse me, just a group of red flags that say from this point on, let's start paying attention. If things have gone smoothly up this point, like Chase was saying, we really don't have a baseline on yet. And then that's, you know, how do we know what's going on? But from just right out of the gate looking at it, we're seeing cues that we usually see as our view as deceptive. All right. Are we good? Hey, one last note. And Chase, I think you were you were saying mostly the same thing. But guys, when we talk about baseline, we can get a baseline on a person under stress and then see the deviations and spikes in stress, too, because when a person is sitting on a couch eating Cheetos, as I always say, it's very different from being under duress, even if you're discovered at something that you shouldn't be. Or even if you're feeling stressed because you it's your first time in court. It's just after one o'clock in the morning in Aruba, 17 year old Yoran Vandersloot and 18 year old Natalie Holloway have been drinking in a night club and are now in the backseat of a car on the way to his house being driven by his two friends. Unusual for you to be in the backseat of the car with two other guys kind of driving you when you're with another girl? With one other girl, yes. But they were OK with it? They were OK with it. Did they ever say, hey, she doesn't seem right to us. Let's just drop her off? No, never. Then Yoran has second thoughts. He decides not to take Natalie to his house because he says his father and brothers are sleeping. Then he says Natalie has an idea to go to the lighthouse on the north coast to see sharks. You say Natalie said she wanted to see sharks. Yeah. A lot of sharks around Aruba? No, no, no sharks at all. But she thought she wanted to see sharks? Yeah. And I don't know. I told her there's no sharks on Aruba. And she's like, no, no, no, there's sharks on Aruba. There's sharks on Aruba. So I leaned up and I told Deepak to go ahead and drive to the lighthouse. I was talking to her the whole time. And so she was basically telling me stuff about her life. Such as? That where she's from, where she went to school, how old she was. Still with it? Still making sense? Still making sense. The only thing she said that didn't make sense was about wanting to see sharks. And she told me she was talking about her mom. And she told me her mom was Hitler's sister. What does that mean? I have no clue what that means. And I don't know what it means. So what happens? We drove to that beach there. We got out. And I told Deepak I'd call him later to come pick me up. Because I was planning on walking from that piece of the beach back to her hotel. And that maybe on the beach walk there something would happen between us. We walked out on the beach. How was she walking? Did she still seem OK to you? Yeah, she seemed OK. Were there other people on the beach? Yes, there were. There were a lot of couples on the beach. We walked first. I took off my shoes because I got sand in them. We walked right up to the water. And first we sat down there a while talking and kissing. And then I asked her if she wanted to go back to her hotel. She said no, she wanted to walk the other way. So towards the north side of the island. And during that walk, there was one other couple that walked by. And so we walked a while till we got about right to the fisherman's hut. And we sat down again in the sand. And we kissed. We made out. And yeah. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so I'm going to take the approach in this one to treat this guy like somebody I have to interrogate and figure out where I'd focus. And when we talk about interrogation, a lot of interrogation time is spent on micro interview. Meaning I look for a baseline and see a blip. I forget about everything except the blip. I open. I go to interview until I see another blip. And repeat, repeat, repeat until I get to the problem. We don't see Chris do that here. Chris Cuomo do that here. Because when he says, uh, that beach, he closes his eyes and I blocks, there may be nothing there. But if you leave that unturned, you'll never know. So I'd say, hold on a second. That beach there, what? Let's follow through and understand why he's being nondescript here when he was very descriptive in the last video. Also followed by an apprehensive breath because he pulls in after he says it. Now, it may mean nothing, but it may also mean something important. Which beach? Where? Which strip of beach? There's also a pregnant pause, very pregnant, at that piece dot, dot, dot, dot of the beach. Why? And he shifts his head position. Why? I want to know, I want to know what do you mean by that piece of the beach? Because there could be something else. He was going down the wrong path and used the wrong word. And that creates an anchor that you can come back to later. And then there's classic time hiding here and up. That doesn't mean anything happened. But if you leave that gap, you have a problem. Kissing dot, dot, dot. There's a pause again. Cadence shift means something. Then I ask her if she wanted to go back. Another time hide. And then I ask her if. We kissed and made out there's a flurry of blinks. And then, yeah, he throws his facts away at the end. This is going to be one of the most important of all these videos to me. I'm going to say number two is my first marker that I would use to go into an interrogation. Scott, what do you got? All right, to me, everything's fine until it gets to that part about one of the couple that walked by. Because we hear and so. He starts that stuff. And this is new. There are lots of bands. So he's creating time. And this might be. I got the feeling when I first saw this is probably where things really happened right there, where things might have gone sideways for him. Or if he did. Yeah, I'm pretty. If he did kill her, I'd say that's right in that area there, right in that time frame there. His illustrating happens very low. In fact, it happens. It's all in the wrist. And his arm doesn't even leave the chair. He's just given it one of these numbers as he's talking. And I think what we're seeing, but the way he sounds and the way his sentence structure is and these long pauses in there, I know he's what is it? He's Dutch. Is that right? Yeah, so he's speaking English, but he's Dutch. So that could play into a little bit there. But it sounds like he's walking on eggshells. So he's paying attention to everything he says, not just word for word pronunciation, those kind of things. I mean, he's paying attention to what he's saying as a whole, because he knows he has to be careful in here. Because right now he thinks everything's fine. He's gotten away with it. So all he has to do is just make sure he keeps walking down that little walk in the tight rope the way he should be walking it. So after he talks about making out with her, he's getting, we see that heavy eye flutter. And then he very quickly says, and yeah, real quick like that, that lets us know there's an issue there. So I think something must have happened in this little section here, this question down at the beach. I think that that might be where things start happening. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. She said she wanted to walk the other way. So we've got somebody here who wants to go 180 degrees in the opposite direction to the way that she should be going. And there is a micro gesture of approval that he gives on that tiny, tiny little eyebrow race. But don't take a look at it because it is micro small. But because it is so different from what his eyebrows are normally doing, you can see it. So he's looking for approval on this 180 degrees going in the opposite direction that she should. Because clearly, it's odd. It's bizarre, just like the idea that she might be claiming that she is Hitler's niece. You've got Hitler's niece going 180 degrees in the opposite direction to what she should be. Of course, you're going to want approval on that story because clearly, it's a little bit bizarre. Also, throughout this, the blink rate, for me, is right up there. But I'm not the kind of person that counts blink rate. But I know a man who does chase. Blink rate, what did you think? I hope you have a number. Don't disappoint me. And then counting this one. I'm you. I'm you. It is high. It is higher than what we've seen so far, which I would not really consider a full baseline yet. But there's a lot going on in this one. But I'm going to only cover one thing. There's one thing that I continuously teach when it comes to reading behavior. Look for what's missing. Then look for what's different. So what's different? What's missing? I would probably do it in that order. The one statement that's vastly different from all the others here is when he's detailing their walk over to the fisherman's huts. And when he says, we kissed, we made out and. The only person I know who finishes a sentence with and is Greg, like every video, I think. But there's an eye flutter and there's a loss of fluency, which is when we struggle to produce some accurate words or speech. And these are occurring through. Though at the moment we're seeing the sharp increase in self regulation, he's locked himself down, Greg, to your point, I think, or unless it was Scott said that. And there's information missing. And the eye flutter is something we see when somebody's computer processor or what we would call cognitive load increases to some high level. And pretty often we see this when we're processing lots of information in our heads. But sometimes you'll see it in response to someone trying to clear disturbing thoughts or memories that are coming up at that precise moment as they're telling the story. This is a red flag here because it meets the criteria for a red flag, according to me, which mean there's a higher potential for it to be deceptive. So there are five C's I'm going to teach you right now. This is the time to pull out your pen to determine if something is a red flag or not in my book. And they're listed here and not in order of priority. I'll give them in order of priority a little bit later and you'll see why. So change checklist, which are just these common behaviors associated with deception or stress, context, the behavior occurs in response to some stimulus, cluster. And it occurred in a group of behaviors that also indicate stress. So those are four of the five C's. In the next video, I'll give you number five. The eye witness is you. So what happens? We drove to that beach there. We got out and I told Deepak I'd call him later to come pick me up because I was planning on walking from that piece of the beach back to her hotel and that maybe on the beach walk there something would happen between us. We walked out on the beach. How is she walking? Does she still seem OK to you? Yeah, she seemed OK. Were there other people on the beach? Yes, there were. There were a lot of couples on the beach. We walked first. I took off my shoes because I got sand in them. We walked right up to the water. And first we sat down there a while talking and kissing and then I asked her if she wanted to go back to her hotel. She said no. She wanted to walk the other way, so towards the north side of the island. And during that walk, there was one other couple that walked by. And so we walked a while until we got about right to the fisherman's hut. And we sat down again in the sand and we kissed. We made out and, yeah. Hey, sorry, it's storming real bad, so I may lose everybody. So Hattie's scared to death, so she's sitting up here. That's what I'm doing. I'm going to see at some point if I can get Hattie's ears on my head. That's funny. Hey, Chase, you know what's funny? My notes actually have exactly what you said. He says, when he's doing that piece, we... So what happened as you remember? As I remember, she was laying on top of me kissing and we were touching each other. And I ended up and, yeah, that's as far as it went. No sex. No intercourse? No intercourse. Why not if that's what you thought she wanted? Well, I asked her if she wanted to have sex and she was fine with it. I didn't have a condom with me, though, in my wallet. And I won't have sex with a girl without a condom. How did you feel about Natalie at this point? Well, at this point, I got over a little and I thought she was attractive. I thought she, for most of what I knew, I thought she was nice. Did you feel that you two had a connection or is this just a mutual hookup for the moment? It was just a mutual hookup for the moment. Greg, what do you got? So he starts off with a couple of things that you brought up last time, but to the letter, as I remember, he says at this point, he's repeating exactly what the guy said. Well, if I had someone coach me or if we coach someone, we would say, if you need to pause, listen to the words, repeat the words, nobody's going to be, it's not going to be awkward. It is a little bit awkward in him. I wonder how much coaching he's had off-camera or if there's a disclaimer or if he had somebody there with him. Remember, his father's a judge. And if his father's judge is pretty smart about having representation anytime you're in front of somebody talking. When he says no sex, he eye blocks, but doesn't look necessarily unbelievable. It's just an eye block at no sex. He's attentive to language because he's using it over and over and over. But I'll leave it at that. Those are two red flags for me, nothing really big, but I would leave no stone unturned. You guys will probably see something even more. Chase, what do you got? So let's talk about this blink rate for a second. You might see some say there's a flutter associated with the statements about hands in the pants. As you'll see them do a couple of little blinks there. If you use those four C's we talked about, you'll notice context is playing a role here. Talking about this kind of thing on television might be uncomfortable for probably 99% of people. And I'll probably discount the likelihood of deception on that. One more eye movement that's important to note here. When he says no sex, there's a distinct eye closure there. And this is what some call eye blocking. And there's research that this sometimes is associated with deception. But if we take the fifth C on the list of C's, something else becomes apparent. The fifth C on the list is culture. He's from the Netherlands and Dutch people along with several other Westernized countries and Europe have a much higher tendency to close their eyes when making denials about something. So just taking that into our account there. So going off this video all by itself, I would say something is off. But pronouncing guilt or deception at this point would probably be foolish. You're responsible. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so he's asked how he was, his feelings for the girl, for the woman. He says feeling attractive and nice. And he gestures with just one hand. The other hand is down on his leg, kind of lockdown. The other hand gives some very indirect gestures. They don't really bat on very well along to the rhythm of his speech and they don't really illustrate very well. They just kind of wave and wash around in an indirect way. I'm always alerted when people are using very indirect gestures and often if they're not symmetrical. So asymmetrical, indirect, one-hand lockdown. Certainly for me, knowing nothing about this situation, I think, okay, that's interesting. Let's see some more because just like you Chase and just like everybody here, I'm going, okay, there's something going on here. Something isn't quite right. Scott, what do you got on this one? I think this is pretty much just a continuation of what we've seen with the addition of fading facts. I see the other stuff you guys were talking about and I agree with that as well. When he says it was just a mutual hookup for the moment. That gets kind of quiet and again, he's repeating almost the question as he's answering. And I think that's so if he decides he needs to add any qualifiers to the end there, I think that gives him time to de-conflict and go back through and almost think about what he's saying. Should I say this? Have I said this? Did this happen? I need to stay away from whatever happened. I think that's what we're hearing there. There's still not much movement as far as his whole body goes. He's got a pretty good eye lock on him. His gaze is right at him. It gives me the impression that there's an issue here. I know we've seen him be still the whole time but he's being really still. This is for someone who's in the hot seat, it's a little bit odd. I get an odd feeling from that. So what happened as you remember? As I remember, she was laying on top of me kissing and we were touching each other and I ended up and yeah, that's as far as it went. No sex. No intercourse. No intercourse. Why not if that's what you thought she wanted? Well, I asked her if she wanted to have sex and she was fine with it. I didn't have a condom with me, though, in my wallet and I won't have sex with a girl without a condom. How did you feel about Natalie at this point? Well, at this point I got over a little and I thought she was attractive. I thought she, for most of what I knew, I thought she was nice. Did you feel that you two had a connection or is this just a mutual hookup for the moment? It was just a mutual hookup for the moment. Getting very late and Goren says he decided to go home because he had school the next day. We cuddled a while on the beach just laying there and till I said about time to walk her back to her hotel. And what does Natalie say? She said that she didn't want to go back to her hotel and she wanted me to stay there with her because it was her last night and she didn't want to go back to Alabama. She was having too much fun in the room. Was she falling asleep? Yeah, she actually was when we were laying there. She closed her eyes on my chest and, yeah. Sleepy or drunken passing out? Yeah, no, more sleepy. Seems a lot though, doesn't it? That she's fallen asleep but she doesn't want to go back to her hotel? She wanted me to stay with her there. She didn't want to go back to Alabama. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, about time to walk her back to a hotel. We get some lip compression there. We get a sour taste in the mouth as well. He locks eye contact. So what I would say out of that is we've got a withheld negative idea that he also checks to see whether the interviewer has, is in agreement or alignment with the impression that he's putting on. Has the interviewer seen behind him what's going on? So again, it's really mounting up for me that there's probably some deception going on here. There's probably a whole other story behind all of this. Let's see what happens. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, Mark, not only when he says back to her hotel, there's a lill at the end. The first time we hear it, there's an ask. There's not a tell. We hear that. He shifted which hand he's illustrating with now. Now I'm starting to go, I'm seeing some clusters of behavior here that make me concerned. When he says, well, she's sleepy, there's a lifesaver and you see him jump on it, reach for a straw and say, yes, she actually was, actually was. So he's given space there. That's a chance for him then to start what I consider a laundry list of story. And the reason I say that is listen to the lill and listen to the cadence at which he delivers. And when we say cadence, people have a normal rate of speech when they're talking. If they're teaching, they're gonna have a different rate of speech. And when they're asking for something or trying to get something out, they're gonna have yet a different cadence and rate of speech from when they're in a bind. He goes, she wanted me to stay with her there. She didn't want me to go back to Alabama. There's a story. That's the beginning of something going on and we see some self-amusement. We see that face starting to rise and light up in that lower face. And Scott, you said earlier, you think Dupers to Light is X or Y. I think all Dupers to Light is self-amusement with look what I'm getting away with. And I think we're seeing a deviation from his baseline strong enough to make me want to lean in and go, really? Let's talk about all those details that you just left out. Scott, what do you got? All right, this is where things change. Like you were saying, is cadence speeds up? It's faster than it has been. His voice tone and volume are much stronger than they have been. And his head, but his head movement is more relaxed. And I'm with Mark on the, where I feel like some of this maybe happened. Because to me, it looks like he's describing something that actually happened. So he's telling what happened, but he's leaving something out. It's one of the ways you lie, lie by omission. So something was thrown out there that he could grab onto and say, yeah, she was sleepy. That's part of it. So he has something real to hang on to. I think that's why it looks like he's telling the truth there for a lot of it. But still something is not right here. He's talking slow and he's repeating the questions as part of the answers. Again, in my experience, when I've seen that, that person is thinking about what they're de-conflicting because they haven't had a lot of time to de-conflict. And even though it doesn't seem like very much time when you're doing that, your brain doesn't need a whole lot of time to get in and start thinking about a lot of stuff. So I think that's when he's correcting stuff and moving stuff around, structuring his answers as he's repeating the question to make that, give him more space in there so he can get ready for it. But the only if he, part of me is when he repeats that thing about her not wanting to go back to Alabama because he's brought that up a couple of times. That's something that's not right in there for me with that. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I tend to agree. But right at the beginning he's the only actual cluster that I see. So let's just break down this one part that he's talking about cuddling on the beach. First, there's a shoulder shrug, which usually means some form of an unconscious apology. And in this case, he's likely nonverbally saying something to the effect of, sorry, that's all that happened. His hand comes into motion simultaneously during the shrug and it's a muted movement. So this is common in the Netherlands and in places like the Netherlands to have more subtle and less exaggerated gestures. So I'm thinking culture may play a role here. There's another hand motion that's locked down to the chair again with his left hand with not much of a baseline string to it. And this is starting to look more and more like self restraint, which is common in highly skilled liars, which I think there's a chance we're actually dealing with. But it's also common in people who are nervous on camera to see an example of this. You can go look at our first couple of episodes here on the channel. All four of us, maybe except Mark are trying to be like statues. You can go watch like our first couple of episodes. So finally here, there's an immediate mouth closure after he says going to walk her back to her hotel. And this mouth closure comes with an uncharacteristic facial rigidity, which I would say is likely a sign of even more severe self restraint. So I'd say this might suggest something happened while they were together on the beach and cuddling. And what he's saying might not have been what's going on. The island is huge. He's getting very late. And Goren says he decided to go home because he had school the next day. We cuddled a while on the beach, just laying there until I said about time to walk her back to her hotel. And what does Natalie say? She said she didn't wanna go back to her hotel and she wanted me to stay there with her because it was her last night and she didn't wanna go back to Alabama. She was having too much fun in the river. Was she falling asleep? Yeah, she actually was when we were laying there. She closed her eyes on my chest and yeah. Sleepy or drunken passing out? Yeah, no, more sleepy. Seems a lot though, doesn't it? That she's falling asleep but she doesn't wanna go back to her hotel? She wanted me to stay with her there. She didn't wanna go back to Alabama. Goren says at about 2.30 a.m. he calls his friend Deepak for a ride home and while waiting, he says he tries one last time to get Natalie to go. I tried to convince her to go back to her hotel. I even jokingly picked her up in my arms to try and take her to the hotel and she said, just pull me down. Do you remember the last time you saw her? Yeah, the last time I saw her was when I told her I was gonna go to Deepak's car. And how was Natalie? And she was sitting on the sand by the ocean. Did it seem like a wrong thing to do leaving a girl on the beach like that? At that moment in time, for me it wasn't the wrong thing but it's definitely the wrong thing to do. I mean, it's not something a real man would do, it's not normal, it's not right at all. But you did it. Yeah. Why? Yeah, because at that moment, I wanted to go home. I wanted to go to school the next day. All right, Chase, what do you got? Right at the part where we're talking about the last time I saw her and going to Deepak's car, I think was his name. There's some immediate mouth closure only on this point here and this is more self containment. And it's interesting, the memory here is about telling her a narration of action instead of saying goodbye or hugging her. That was very interesting to me. There's two big things with this. I don't think this is the last time he saw her based on this at all. And Cuomo asked, how was Natalie? And then he describes her, she was sitting. Why would she not be standing as they were saying goodbye? She's just sitting on the beach looking out and he's walking away. I think that's pretty unusual. I wouldn't say that there's a deception cue there. There's one very interesting thing I want you to listen to when this clip comes back on. He says she was sitting in the sand and then immediately corrects his words to use the word on the sand. If I was an investigator here, that might give me a hint at a potential place I might start looking for a body. These tiny little things in language come up all the time in cases that we look at and this is a great example to train your ears to listen to this kind of thing. So just this week, a woman who went through my profiling course in my app emailed and said, just the linguistics profiling training that I do made her look a little deeper on, I think, yeah, I can say. It was a babysitter that she was interviewing and I found out that a person had a pretty serious record, very serious record that involved children. So interesting stuff, powerful stuff if you use it right. Scott, what do you got? I think the volume change from his first answer to the way he's answering this one is dramatic. And I think it's huge. And right here is where I put all my chips on this being deceptive. I think every little thing in my brain when I've said, ah, here it is, this guy's full of it, man. Nobody, nobody, a guy, a boy, a man would leave a woman on the beach in the middle of the night. Nobody, or one of their buddies, you wouldn't just leave even some guy you knew out there in Aruba, you wouldn't do that. Not the Aruba's bad or anything, but a beach out there. No, you wouldn't do that. If you've been drinking and you're drunk, they could fall in the waters, all kinds of things that you would never do that. That's when I started making, that's when I made my mind about the sky that he would do that. We're dealing with somebody who's not a very good person, who wasn't raised right, I would say. And I'll get a lot of gut for that, but I don't care. That's what I think about that. So when you're lying about something, you're walking this tightrope and you try to stay balanced. And you watch the rope and you watch your steps and you completely focus on the direction you're going in. And there's that balance between where you lose control and you keep control. And when you lose control, your brain starts freaking out and your arms start going back and forth and you start going back and forth. I think that's what we're seeing here. He's trying to walk that tightrope but it's not working for him. I think he loses his balance a little bit. So he starts admitting that he's leaving her there. I mean, this is where he's telling us what happened, basically, except he's omitting the part where if something happened to her, if he did something, that's where he did it. That's why things changed in here. That's why it looks so weird and sounds so odd as he's talking about that. He's reliving that scene in his head because he knows what happened. I'm under the impression. We don't know for sure yet. But from what I've seen so far and listened to and watching this, I'm under the impression that's a lot of deception going on here. Greg, what do you got? Would you go? Yeah, I would say, look, your brain is designed to read exactly what we're talking about. You ain't gonna have the words for it but you're suspicious of people for a reason. And there's a reason there's a word in our vocabulary. This is what I think when I see this guy. Can I say for a fact he's lying? No, but let me give you a list of things that just ping my BS meter right off. There's an awful lot of change in cadence. As he says, go back to her hotel. Listen to that deviation in cadence. Why? Is that so hard to say? Pretty simple words. But when our brain is doing, Scott, your point when we're walking that fine line, our brain is trying to be cautious to fall off left or fall off right. There's not much brown involvement in this kid in anything we've seen. Now I think he's 17 here. But when he says I'm going back to Deepak's car, we see brow rise. That's a request for approval. People do it, chase to your point when somebody's coming in and talking about your kids and they raise their brow and they're asking for approval. It doesn't mean they're lying but it means they need approval on that moment. Why would he need approval on this moment? When he hasn't yet, up to now, I went back to Deepak's car. Maybe nothing, maybe something there. And then that uncharacteristic for him, his mouth hangs open when he's thinking. If you watch him, he just sits there with his jaw slack. Except for a couple of cases and they both occur in this video. When he's asked about going back to Deepak's car, he does that, he does it really quick right after lip compression or closed lips to your point chase. And he does exactly the same thing when he's asked about the last thing that he said to Natalie or the last thing that happened with Natalie. Here's the other one. When he's asked how Natalie was, Scott, how are you? Good. Not sitting, are you? You wouldn't say sitting in the sand. That's not how people answer the question, how is someone? When he says, how is she? He gives her disposition. She was in on the sand, is like you said to start with Chase. But he gives her disposition but nothing about condition. Well, she was drunk or she was angry or she was upset. Not she was on the sand. That's a weird response when you're talking about a living human being because people have moods and that's usually what we mean by that or how they're feeling. Right after he says that sand is when you see his lips through that other compression. Guys, this is enough deviation in baseline for me to now go, this guy needs some attention and we would crawl all over every one of these details and say why is that deviation occurring? And we'd ask a lot of questions. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, here's another big deviation in baseline for me. What we've seen from him before is when he'll illustrate it's usually just with one hand, the other hand is locked down. And a lot of times both hands are down there like he's got no action happening at all in his arms. Jokingly picked her up in my arms and both arms come up in symmetry to do a mime of that action. Mime from Latin mimosis to copy. He copies that action and really well and congruent in time with what he's saying. Here's what I'd say. He most likely did pick her up in his arms whether he did it jokingly. I don't know if that comes first and there's a lot of emphasis on that picking her up as a joke. No, I think he probably did pick her up. I'm not sure what condition she was in when he picked her up, but I would pretty much guarantee he picked her up, maybe moved up somewhere. Yeah, I would pretty much gamble most of everything on that one. Yeah, that's all I got. Greg, Greg, it's that one. It's like a snake moving in. Hey, I wouldn't miss you. Joran says at about 2.30 a.m. he calls his friend Deepak for a ride home and while waiting he says he tries one last time to get Natalie to go. I tried to convince her to go back to her hotel. I even jokingly picked her up in my arms to try and take her to the hotel and she said just put me down. Do you remember the last time you saw her? Yeah, the last time I saw her was when I told her I was gonna go to Deepak's car. And how was Natalie? And she was sitting on the sand by the ocean. Did it seem like a wrong thing to do, leaving a girl on the beach like that? At that moment in time, for me it wasn't the wrong thing but it's definitely the wrong thing to do. I mean, it's not something a real man would do, it's not normal, it's not right at all. But you did it, yeah. Why? Yeah, because at that moment I wanted to go home. I wanted to go to school the next day. Yoran says Deepak's brother Satish picked him up and drove him home. But he also offers an interesting little detail. He says he left without his shoes. Why shouldn't the fact that you left your shoes be seen as a sign of panic? That you were nervous or scared about what had happened there? Because that's not what happened. Why would you forget your shoes? You said you weren't drunk. I'd left them on the beach. I'd walked to the car. We got in the car and right then there I couldn't go back because we were going home. In fact, those shoes have never been found and neither has Natalie Holloway. All right, I'll go first on this one. When Cuomo asks him why would you forget your shoes, he starts smiling. This lets us know he thinks he's gotten away with it. And this is one of the best, if not the best example of Dupers of the Light, I think we've seen on this channel so far. This is almost perfect for that. So he doesn't say why he left them on the beach. And in other words, he breaks it down into what he says happened. He says, I left them on the beach. I walked in the car. We got in the car. Right then, right there, I couldn't go back because we were going home. So he starts off saying, I left them on the beach. I walked in the car. Then he says, we got in the car. That right there tells me something's up, that there may have been more than one person there, more than him being there. Somebody helped him with it. Once whatever happened, happened. He told somebody and they helped him with it. Be these two guys he's been dealing with, or his friends, or his buddy is supposed to come pick him up, whatever. There's somebody else involved in this, I would think, from the way that sounds. That's what I'm under the impression of. I'll leave it right there. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, and when you see Dupers of the Light, I see arrogance, pompousness, entitlement, and anger. That's what I see in all that stuff. And I'm like, I love those personality traits because I know how to work those. We have tools for working those. When I see him, she'll contempt in his face immediately when his exaggerated storytelling's not working. I think I'm seeing entitlement. I think he's pissed that Chris Cuomo has challenged him about his shoes. This is the first place he's really challenged him. I think if you poked him a little bit, you'd get a very different behavior than he's done to now. This is pronounced. I think you're starting to get entitlement. You also see, when that much contempt shows up in somebody's face, you've done something. You've hit some button, or you're too close to the truth. And so that's the way they push you off. This is the second most important video to me now. Number two, where he was hiding time. Now, this one where he's showing me who he is, the only brow movement we've seen earlier, there was one piece, a little bit of movement. And now we see an exaggerated brow movement. When they ask him about his shoes, I left them on the beach. There's an exaggerated movement, a sniff. And so that is out of character for him, out of baseline. And then is this micro? I don't know, but he's got his brow down in telling. This progressively makes me think he's got elements. He wants to get out and make sure he covers his story. And that if you poke him enough, you'd get something out of him. So this gives me an element of how to go after him next time. And whoever's gonna interrogate this guy, poke on that. I'm sure you know, you've got plenty of video from him and his murder trial and all those kinds of things. But poke this guy, take away his entitlement and watch what happens. Chase, what do you got? Two things are very apparent here. There's a smile, Scott, where you saw Doober's Delight. I saw maybe one of two things. If he's innocent, and I wanna continue to think if he's innocent, what context would I be seeing? What would I be seeing here? This smile could indicate that the question is pretty stupid, which it kinda is. But if he's guilty and a monster, which might be likely here, the smile is, I think, in response to him being hypothetically referred to as nervous and scared, which insulted his feeling of manhood to which he refers to later in this exact same clip. So there's an increase in blink rate when he's talking about leaving the shoes on the beach and our blink rate is how fast or how often we're blinking and it goes up to when we feel stressed, it goes down when we feel focused. There's not a whole lot of clusters here in this video, but keep in mind, we aren't in control of this interview and we cannot control these questions here. The questions aren't very good. And even more importantly, there's nothing that I can see being done here to increase the two critical factors. Number one is increasing anxiety associated with deception. Number two, increasing the seriousness and gravity of the interview. That's about all I got there. Mark, what do you got? That's okay, Chase, buckle up. The next one we'll get to see a little bit of that. All right, so I was born in one of Europe's most important shoe towns. So I know something about shoes. We even have a shoe museum. So you could go to the shoe museum and learn all you needed to know about shoes. Shoes are super important because they give us that sense of safety. They help us walk long distances. We feel more aggressive if we're wearing shoes, more passive if we take our shoes off. Remember that story of Cinderella, which is with the story of Cinderella is about inside something ordinary is something extraordinary. You know, a rat can turn into a coachman and ordinary pumpkin into a beautiful guilt coach. And she escapes at midnight and leaves her shoes behind. Why? Because she panics. She panics and so that symbol of leaving your shoes is an idea of emotional panic. Why? Because it's true. If you're so panicked that you forget those shoes, then seriously something is going on inside an ordinary story, something extraordinary is gonna be going on. My guess is on that beach, something extraordinary happened there. Something that most likely you and I and most everybody watching this have never done. Something quite extreme happened out of an ordinary situation of being on a beach so extreme that you would forget your shit. You might even take them off in the first place. Why would we want to do that by a beach? Often because you need to go into the water. You maybe take your, why would you want to go into the water and then be so panicked that you have to run away and forget your shoes? Well, let's see what happens in this grim tale. The island is you. Joran says Deepak's brother Satish picked him up and drove him home. But he also offers an interesting little detail. He says he left without his shoes. Why shouldn't the fact that you left your shoes be seen as a sign of panic? That you were nervous or scared about what had happened there? Because that's not what happened. Why would you forget your shoes? You said you weren't drunk. I'd left them on the beach. I'd walked to the car. We got in the car and right then there I couldn't go back because we were going home. In fact, those shoes have never been found and neither has Natalie Holloway. What are your memories of Natalie life? I don't really have that many memories. I mean, I knew her for one night. I feel horrible that I even went out that night without my father knowing. I should have just stayed home and this wouldn't have happened to me. It would have happened to another person. I just tried to look at it that I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, maybe even with the wrong people. And I just hope that the truth comes out that there's come some clarity in this case. But do you understand? I mean, how can a girl just disappear? I don't know. I think that's the million dollar question now. So if you could do it over again, what would you do? I would have just stayed home that night and wouldn't have even gone out. It was Natalie who asked me to go out with her. It was her that asked me to come to the club. It was her that was yelling at me to go dance with her. And I said, and I went to go drink something with my friends. Are you that irresistible? I mean, is that what? No, I don't know. That's not, that's absolutely not what it's about. I don't know. When her parents showed up at my door with her picture, I didn't even know who Natalie Holloway was. I didn't even know her name. Well, how can you not know her name if you just saw her the night before? Well, I saw her the night before, but it's not like I had a conversation with her for three hours. I mean, we barely talked. She told me a couple of things about herself, where she was going to school, where she was from. How attractive did you think she was? I thought she was attractive. What kind of feelings did you have for her? I didn't have any feelings for her because I didn't know her at all. I just, the feelings I had for her were because she was attractive. So you were hot for her, you mean? I wouldn't say that. I just thought she was attractive. I thought she was very outgoing and then she came to me. She was the one to talk to me. She asked for me to dance with her, which I didn't even do. And she wanted to come with us. And it was probably a bad choice. We probably should have told her she had to get out of the car when her friend told her to get out of the car. And then you never know what would have happened. Chase, what do you got? So there's two spots in this clip that I think might tell us the story. And for some reason, maybe I'm just, this morning when I was going through these, I was addicted to finding two things in all these videos. First, when he's mentioning that he hopes the truth comes out, holy crap. He's got to catch his breath. There's a loss of fluency. There's pacifying and what I call expenditure. When we have a little spike in adrenaline and our body says, whoa, Chase, you need to start burning this off. You need to get rid of it. So that's an expenditure, the side to side movement that you're seeing there. Increasing speed is humorous bones. These little bones right here move inward to kind of protect his brachial artery. And all of our skeleton is trained from birth pretty much to protect our arteries when we get scared. And this is an example of the five C's coming together perfectly in this clip. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So throughout this, there are multiple single shoulder shrugs. I mean, multiple. Now, does a single shoulder shrug mean somebody is lying in some way? No, as always, there has to be clusters. But there are so many single shoulder shrugs. And by the way, he's got a backpack on and the weight is evenly distributed. You can see he's got both of those on. So he has the ability to do two shoulder shrugs if he wanted to. And that would seem congruent if he was going, hey, look, this is just the way it is. I regret this and we walked on the beach and look, this is just, but so many single shoulder shrugs that I would just say, I would bank on most likely most of what's being talked about in this, not being a lie, but I would just go, it's dubious. It's really dubious with so many single shoulder shrugs in there. And by the way, this will continue as we go along. But there are some important double shoulder shrugs coming up. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, Mark, more importantly, we look for clusters. We got a single shoulder shrug, we got a brow up and we got a lower lip withdrawn, retracted. Those all mean that I'm not confident I need approval and I need reassurance. Those are powerful. If one alone was there, we would look and say, maybe there's a red flag. This is a series of red flags. So we'd pay really close attention. And then he starts to do the chained elephant, rocking back and forth on his ankles. That's a whole lot of information to say he's uncomfortable with a question and he's adapting to try to get out of it. He does say I feel horrible, but what does he not say I feel horrible about? What happened to this girl? I feel horrible that I disappointed my father. He never says anything about her. He does say it was Natalie. It was Natalie that called me out. We walked through this whole thing. There's just so much with this guy. When he gets down to this point where he said she came to me, he absolutely loses confidence and that's the most powerful one. His forehead is up. His cadence shifts. He does single shoulder and his lip withdraws. This is not good. Now, this is one of the first interviews. This is before the one we were watching earlier and this is gonna get aggressive for him. Scott, what do you got? All right, first off, he approaches this whole thing as if he's the victim. Think about that. I just should have stayed home and this wouldn't happen to me. So yeah, you're right Greg and Mark Raugh going down the same little road here. Compared to what I've seen so far, this sounds almost sped up. He's talking so fast. He's so into it. And about you guys talking about all those shoulder shrugs and single shoulder shrugs, that tells me two things. He has a little confidence with what he, very little confidence with what he's talking about and he's not very sincere with it. That's what that indicates at that point. Usually it's they don't have the confidence in what's happening so you'll see those quick little shrugs. The almost the entire interview, his eyebrows are up and what Greg is going to ask, request for approval. Because he wants to be believed. He wants to make sure he's being believed and he wants to sky to buy his answer. It's the same thing little children do when they're asking for something like, can I have something to eat? Can I buy this toy? Whatever their eyebrows go up. And I like to add something to that. If you wanna know if a guy finds you attractive, if you're a woman or another guy, watch their eyebrows when they see you when they're talking to you. If they go up and they spot a girl or another guy, whatever your nerve is gonna be, their eyebrows will go up and they'll stay up for a little while. I noticed that a long time ago when you see someone attractive, your eyebrows go up and they stay up. Now, sometimes in conversations when somebody's listening to you, they'll stay up. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when you see them, they don't go straight up like that. It takes a second they go up and they get sort of a blank look on their face. So one of the things you wanna look for are those eyebrows being stuck up like that. When he says, if you could do it over again, what would you do different? I want you to watch his left shoulder because when he starts talking about that, it's the one that's closest to the camera. With every sentence that he says there, that shoulder goes up. His left shoulder goes up. So keeping on that, again, that shows us that he has very little confidence in what he's saying and the sincerity is really low on that as well. He makes sure he covers the part where parents show up. They show up with their picture. And he said, and when they did that, he said he didn't recognize her, didn't know who she was or what her name was. Along with that, we see that chin to the shoulder. We see that single shoulder shrug now. Like I said before, this was brought to my attention by Joe Navarro when he talks about people he's seen that are being deceptive and the single shoulder comes up and the chin goes toward that shoulder most every time. It's someone, and when I got that, I started noticing that too. I know I've said that on here before, but these are just red flags from this whole thing. Just seems odd to me. Seems like something's wrong here. So obviously it is. I know he feels that way because he's under stress and pressure from all that. But I think this is letting us see that there's tons of stress and pressure. One of those tapery plays. What are your memories of Natalie life? I don't really have that many memories. I mean, I knew her for one night. I feel super, I feel horrible that I even went out that night without my father knowing. I should have just stayed home and this wouldn't have happened to me. It would have happened to another person. I just tried to look at it that I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe even with the wrong people. And I just hope that the truth comes out that there's come some clarity in this case. But do you understand? I mean, how can a girl just disappear? I don't know. I think that's the million dollar question now. So if you could do it over again, what would you do? I would have just stayed home that night and wouldn't have even gone out. It was Natalie who asked me to go out with her. It was her that asked me to come to the club. It was her that was yelling at me to go dance with her. And I said, and I went to go drink something with my friends. Are you that irresistible? I mean, is that what? No, I don't know. That's not, that's absolutely not what it's about. I don't know. When her parents showed up at my door with her picture, I didn't even know who Natalie Holloway was. I didn't even know her name. Well, how can you not know her name if you just saw her the night before? Well, I saw her the night before, but it's not like I had a conversation with her for three hours. I mean, we barely talked. She told me a couple of things about herself, where she was going to school, where she was from. How attractive did you think she was? I thought she was attractive. What kind of feelings did you have for her? I didn't have any feelings for her because I didn't know her at all. I just, the feelings I had for her were because she was attractive. You were hot for her, you mean? I wouldn't say that. I just thought she was attractive. I thought she was very outgoing and then she came to me. She was the one that talked to me. She asked for me to dance with her, which I didn't even do. And she wanted to come with us. And it was probably a bad choice. We probably should have told her she had to get out of the car when her friend told her to get out of the car. And then you never know what would have happened. I thought you did. Can I have one thing I forgot? Watch this guy arch his back and look up to the sky. That's an Oh God movement. Like there's arrogance. There's entitlement all tied up in that. When you ask him a hard question, he's like, I do that all the time though, when I have a heavy backpack on, I'll lean back. To a 40. Yeah, you're 40. No, I mean on deployment. On deployment? Yeah, I get it. Like you and I carrying a 65-pound rucksack, not two books and a bunch of pencils. You know what I'm saying? How do you leave the road on the beach? Very irresponsible. I know and that's the one thing I would like to take back. But at the time, it just didn't seem wrong. And then what happened? You just said, I've got to go home and study. I've got to go home because I got to get up for class tomorrow. I told her I had to go home. I had school the next day and I thought maybe she'd understand. She told me no, she wanted me to stay there with her because the next day she was leaving and she wanted to stay there the whole night. I told her no, I had to go. I even lifted her up to carry her back to her hotel. And she told me to put her down. I left her there, I sat down next to her, talked to her a while and I called Deepak to ask him if she could come pick me up, which Deepak didn't do but. Was she angry? She wasn't angry. If it's anything, she was probably more upset that I was leaving her there and I don't know what reaction she had, I don't know. How did you feel when you left her? Well, at the time I didn't feel it was a bad idea. At the time I really didn't, it didn't seem wrong, it didn't seem, of course now I look back at it and I think, I'm an ass, what did I do? But there's nothing I can do about it now. If I'd have that moment back, I would have made sure she got back to her hotel safely but I can't change that now. Okay, here we go. All right, Mark, where do you got? Yeah, some odd stuff in here. So double shoulder shrug on at the time, it just didn't seem wrong. At the time it just didn't seem wrong. So that double shoulder shrug is often associated with, look, this is just the way it is, take it or leave it, this is the way it happened. It just didn't seem wrong. I don't know what reaction she had, single shoulder shrug on that. Okay, so he probably does know what reaction she had and his reaction to that didn't seem wrong at the time. And then another double shoulder shrug on it didn't seem bad, it didn't seem bad. Okay, so I'm concerned with what the it is here because my assumption at this point would be the it is the act that's being investigated here, not necessarily the walk away, that I would question him on, what do you exactly do you mean by it? Because I think inside something very ordinary, like it is probably the extraordinary act that he did in there. And that I'm accounting for by this double shoulder shrug as opposed to the single shoulder shrug. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, so guys, here's now we're gonna get to my third video that I think is vital to interrogating this guy. He's got the request for approval constantly. We didn't see in the first set of videos, but he stammered specifically at that was why I was leaving her here. What do we not hear in this entire interchange? She was upset. Okay, you know how you can tell when somebody's upset? What do they say? We don't hear a single word this woman said, nothing. So here we go again. We'll talk about how she behaved without talking about a word she said. Usually when people are angry, you remember their words. If they're upset or their feelings are hurt or they're crying, you remember. So he stammered there. I would have said, hold on, what did she say exactly? So that I would know why she was aggravated. You're saying she was upset because you left her there. What words did she use? He's agitated for some reason though around her and what she said. And I can't figure out what, because I'm not a mind reader, but I can tell that there's a reason he's not using words. Then there's a brow down that I don't know what kind of reaction she had. Well, come on, what do you mean? I think he means he doesn't understand the kind of reaction. But again, we'd be putting words in his mouth. So I would have said, why, you were there. How do you not know? If you're the last person to see her alive, at least as far as we know, then you should tell us what she said, how you knew she was upset. This is a lot of allowed to dance around the topic, but this guy's pretty good as he starts to nail on him and he steps in and starts questioning him. We'll see him use that mic very effectively. And he's bringing up the cat brain in this guy as I always refer to it. He's got him in fight or flight to the point that he's starting to move. He does that large inhale and his brows up when he gets in his face. And then if the only thing I think he says that I really believe is if I had that moment back, I wouldn't do X. I don't think he tells us what X is, but I think his words are not true about what he wouldn't do, but I do think he wouldn't do whatever it was. And if we watch him, we're gonna see him starting to physically retreat even. This is a big, big change because of a different kind of questioning and interrogation. Scott, what do you got? All right, when he says, how do you leave a girl on the beach? He starts that rocking back and forth and he says, very irresponsible. Well, come on, man, that's not the question. Obviously it's irresponsible. We know that, but how do you do that? What are you thinking? What's going on? You just don't say very irresponsible. You'd say, man, I don't know what I was thinking. You'd show things. Let's talk about what's missing from here. We're not seeing any grief. We're not seeing sorrow for this girl being missing. He's not saying, shoot, we can't find her. Nobody's been able to find her or help us find her, anything like that. Lots of things are missing from that. He still shoulder shrugs it with almost every sentence and every answer. And this is odd since he's, for an innocent person, this would be odd. And nothing is stated matter of factly. Nothing is stated as a fact. It's all, everything sounds iffy and there are red flags for everything he's saying and doing. If you'll watch this guy, in my opinion, this is what it looks like when you're full blown, just somebody's got you cornered and or got a person cornered and they're being deceptive. This is what it looks like. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I totally agree on what you're talking about with this stuff missing. Like there are things definitely missing here. I will say, in this individual clip, using the context of the others and doing my absolute best not to judge this clip based on what we know he was later convicted of. There's not a whole lot of deception indicators that appear in clusters here around certain topics. But I think this has more to do with the questioning techniques. And maybe the reporter using that microphone like an Olympian fincer is kind of how he's holding that thing. So the questions aren't very effective or they're not necessarily direct to what's going on. They're kind of smoky questions around the main topic that nobody really asks them. There's something that a lot of guilty people do. So let me go back. There's some of a lot of people guilty people do and they always do it without being aware of it. They expose a psychological weakness when they talk about something they did wrong that wasn't specifically the crime that they're being questioned for. They will reveal their unconscious process for how they dealt with the commission of the crime. They might say one thing or another about something they did that was wrong. And then when they explain it, you'll hear how they mentally processed and dealt with committing the crime. So listen really closely here at the end of this clip and you'll hear the following words. I'm an asshole. What did I do? But there's nothing I can do about it now and I can't change that now. This would assume that this person is very well thought out in the process of it's in the past. There's nothing I can do. There's no reason to do anything in the present about it. I'll let you process that on your own. That's all I got. How do you leave a girl on the beach? Very irresponsible. I know and that's the one thing I would like to take back but at the time it just didn't seem wrong. And then what happened? You just said I've got to go home and study. I've got to go home because I got to get up for class tomorrow. I told her I had to go home. I had school the next day and I thought maybe she'd understand. She told me no, she wanted me to stay there with her because the next day she was leaving and she wanted to stay there the whole night. I told her no, I had to go. I even lifted her up to carry her back to her hotel and she told me to put her down. I left her there, I sat down next to her, talked to her well and I called Deepak to ask him if she could come pick me up which Deepak didn't do but. Was she angry? She wasn't angry. If it's anything she was probably more upset that I was leaving her there and I don't know what reaction she had, I don't know. How did you feel when you left her? Well at the time I didn't feel it was a bad idea. At the time I really didn't, it didn't seem wrong, of course now I look back at it and I think I'm an ass. What did I do? But there's nothing I can do about it now. If I'd have that moment back I would have made sure she got back to her hotel safely but I can't change that now. The Australians do one called Drop Bears. They go, oh yeah, no, when you go down to Perth you got to watch out for the Drop Bears because they'll fall out the trees on you. And every Australian is able to tell that Drop Bear story usually really well. So you go, oh really? Okay, well thank you very much. We have snipe in the south, we have snipe hunt. Have you ever seen a snipe hunt? Yeah. We used to see them people snipe hunt and that's what they did. You got to come up with a snipe hunt. We're a little kid. We had a sack. Or them in the backyard, yeah man. And we tell them it's $40 if you catch one. Do you have sex with her that night? That's first of all, that's none of your business. That's just a question. Yes, but it's absolutely none of your business. I mean, did anything else happen there? No. Well yes, I kissed with her, but neither me, Deepak or Satish ever had sex with her. And no one ever said otherwise. And that's the last thing that happened? Yes, that's the last thing. What was the last thing that she said to you? She didn't say any last thing to me. The last thing I said to her was bye. She said bye? Yeah. What about? Where's the body? I don't know what happened. I don't know where she is. Chase, what do you got? There's not a lot of nonverbal clusters here that occur together. There are some deviations from baseline. I do think it's unusual that he would bring the other two guys into this. This might be a behavioral cue that he's wanting the reporter to cast a wider net with the questions that are coming afterward. And it could also be because he's heard rumors or talk about the other two people. We just don't know about that. More suspiciously, he could be bringing them up due to a subconscious acknowledgement that there was another person there involved with her disappearance and his desire to make third parties innocent by using his two and who he knows are innocent instead of the people who he doesn't wanna talk about. That could be there. So there's no real ability to have context. So I won't judge that one. But Scott, what do you think? How about that one? Judge it. I'm gonna judge it. No, I'm gonna judge it. If he hadn't had sex with her, he would have said so. He said so in the other video, he didn't have any problem with it at all. But that's not the answer we know he did or I would assume he did. I would judge that he did from that answer. That's what that gives me impression. So I'm not sure that I think he's not sure if they're gonna find her body by that time or not. So I think that's why he's hedging his bets there by watching his answers. I think this is the first time, like you were saying Chase, we've heard about two other guys being in question about being with her. Because remember she got in the car with two of them or with the other two guys in there as well. So this is the first time it's been brought up and an answer from him. So they must have been cleared or something because we haven't heard anything else about them. So maybe they worked it out and said, well, okay, we can prove they weren't there. But that's pretty weird if you ask me. Going back to that one earlier where you talked about, we got in the car. See, so something's not right here. I get to feel this is, again, a bunch of red flags and a bunch of deception we're seeing. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, that's classic Chatham redirect. I mean, the bring up your friends. Well, my friends also didn't. Well, nobody brought your friends up. In fact, you said, and no one ever said otherwise. Well, if no one ever said otherwise, why are you bringing it up? To me, that's classic Chatham redirect. The chance to join other people in and then say, okay, what about your friends? And you can run down the path. A couple of other things. His blank rights through the roof when he says none of your business. Well, we associate blank rate with stress unless it's processor and it's not processor here. One of the best questions entirely, what was the last thing she ever said to you? She apparently never said nothing to him. Although she was upset. She said nothing to him. We don't get a single word from this young woman in this entire story except she's Hitler's niece. That's all we've heard. Then he gets to the most important question, probably the entire thing. He says, where's the body? What does this guy respond? I don't know what happened. I don't know where she is. Now, why are you asking me where the body is? We typically associate people who are innocent with saying, why are you asking me questions like that? However, he does use the word she, not the body. That's a point on his side. So there's no smoking gun. There's a lot of trying to hide facts, still not a single comment from the woman's mouth. It just feels awkward that if you had this interchange and it was not something hostile, you would say she told me and, and, and. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, let me just add one dimension to what you were saying there, Greg. Where's the body? I don't know where she is. Double shoulder shrug on that. So I would suggest he's being honest there. He doesn't know where the body is. Now, that doesn't mean he doesn't know what happened to that body and where that body initially went. But I think he may not have any realistic idea where that body might be at this point right now. Now, you know, you can speculate as to how that would come about. My understanding is, Greg, that the body hasn't been found. No, no. So were you saying he maybe has been making deals around saying where the body is? He tried and that's the reason he's being charged with extortion and I believe whatever, some fraud, I believe he's going back to Alabama to stand trial for that. That's what he's coming to the U.S. for. Okay. So the body could be in a position where it will be forever missing. And he, and he knows that if it wasn't found by now, it's never going to be found, is the probability. And so hence for me, the double shoulder shrug. So there's some honesty potentially there or some realism, certainly. There, that's all I got on that one. The island is huge. Do you have sex with her that night? That's, first of all, that's none of your business. It's just a question. Yes, but it's absolutely none of your business. What, I mean, did anything else happen that night? No. Well, yes, I kissed with her, but neither me, Deepak or Satish ever had sex with her. And no one ever, ever said otherwise. And that's the last thing that happened? Yes, that's the last thing. What was the last thing that she said to you? She didn't say any last thing to me. The last thing I said to her was bye. She said bye? Yeah. Where's the body? I don't know what happened. I don't know where she is. Well, there it is. Keep going, keep going. Good Lord. Dang. All right, here we go. I mean, where do you think she is? I told you, I'm not going to speculate with that, because that's all other people have been doing is speculating. And there's been so much that people have talked on TV. People have come forward and said things, things that make no sense and things that. That's just sad what some people do. But I mean, you're from the island. You know how things work there. You're not like some guy that's a tourist that doesn't know what's going on. That's why in the beginning, I thought she probably ran away with someone on the island. She ran away with a beach rum. I don't know, someone on the island that she might have met before. That was my first reaction. I mean, I've heard things like an international hit squad, for instance. I don't know. It's probably all speculations too. I heard stories that she was in Venezuela, sold into the slave-savvy or sex-savvy. I don't know. People are just trying to make up stories to find out what happened and it's all sad. But you're the last guy that was with her. And I mean, you... I mean, there's... No, I was the last guy that admitted to be with her, but okay. Okay. What is the worst thing you think you've done since this all started? The worst thing I did was leaving her there at the beach. That was the worst thing, possible thing I could have done and then lie about it to try and, yeah, to try and make myself not look bad, I guess. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so look, he's Dutch. And so it's gonna be a big lad. Why would that be so? Because on average, the Dutch are the tallest, largest people on the planet. Obviously you'll find some Dutch people who are tiny, but on aggregates, you know, those will be outliers. On aggregate, they're big. And so that interviewer may not be, you know, a tiny, tiny interviewer. It may well be that this is a large Dutch guy. But all the same. Like, he is ramming that microphone into him and now our Dutch friend is backing off on this. So certainly he's literally on his back foot there. Why would you lie about it? To try and make myself not look bad, I guess. So, you know, I would say his answer should be, you know, why did you lie about it? I was worried it would look bad for me. You don't need the I guess afterwards. Which means, well, I would guess there may be another reason. So my question would be after that, and what other reasons did you lie? What other reasons did you lie? Don't ever necessarily take anybody's first answer on anything. Ask again, what else? What other reasons? And you may well get an even better, deeper answer on it. Scott, what do you got on this one? All right, his answer makes no sense. He could have said, I have no idea. If he was really concerned, he'd be telling the interviewer, and not just the interviewer, but everybody he saw, he'd say, I don't know what happened to her. We need to find her. He would be talking about her like he was mad at her, you know, because when he said, I'm the last guy that admitted to being with her. That tells you everything right there. This guy's a powder keg, man. I'm telling you, because he's angry at her for putting him in the position he's in now. That's the way it looks to me. Because when you deal with somebody like this, I'm not gonna say I'm familiar with a guy who's murdered somebody like this, but when somebody, when they're a powder keg, and you know, and you can see the buttons just pop out on and you go, oh man, don't, don't, don't. Remember when we did Dr. Phil and we did Tarek? And Tarek said something to Mark. He said, I'm sure that you have an excuse for everything. Look at that cat's face when he does that. He wasn't ready for that, man. Mark sounded like his dad, you know, getting after him. So this kind of guy right here, he's apparently, because we've heard him talk about his dad a couple of times. This guy's a powder keg and his dad is the one that says, man, you need to chill out. You need to quit doing this and that and the other thing. That's why I think you're right, Greg. We see a difference in that other video as compared to this video. So I think he, I think he sat him down and said, look man, here's what happens. Wasn't there someone that said his dad was involved in helping him hide the body or something too? There's been all kinds of stuff. There are people who said that his father said, nobody, no case. His father's a judge. So look, I think there's always going to be people looking for, so we don't know. That would be- I just remember that from a long time ago. I remember that from a long time when we were hearing that, not to whatever. All right, Mark, no. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, he does a one-shoulder shrug again and an RF request for approval and he chaffs and redirects. He runs garbage out that has no real value and he actually does a physical retreat when this interviewer steps in. The interviewer is keenly aware of that and just follows him and then he starts to do what I refer to as chained elephant, shifting weight from ankle to ankle. Cause if you look at an elephant and you pin him up, that's what they're going to do. He even starts this story that he later tries to sell that he sold her into Venezuelan slavery. He, that's disparaging the victim when he does this whole thing about, I was the last person that admitted I was with her. I think that is detestable. And you know, if you're in that situation, you usually wouldn't do that. And there's nervous laughter in there. So when we talk in interrogation about leads or source leads, if a person says I was the last guy that admitted, that means he wants to say something. And I want him to say everything he wants to say because it'll give me another lead and another lead and another lead and watch him then suck that lower lip in back into his mouth for needing some kind of reassurance. It's powerful. This guy right now is on the ropes and this is a powerful place to be able to know all these pieces and use them when you get admitted to interrogation. Chase, what do you got? So just to be, I tried to be clinical here because this video kind of pissed me off this morning. So I backed up and we're back to the beginning. Let's be clinical, surgical about this. And this is my opinion. But this clip does not, it's missing some emotion but that aside, it doesn't have a lot of the hallmarks that we look for. And it definitely doesn't have anything that really hits the five Cs that we talked about earlier which are in order, change, context, clusters, culture and checklist. So those are in order of priority. But there's some kind of awful questions from the interviewer here that could play a part in this and this could partially explain this. One thing I didn't expect to see is how rapidly he corrected the reporter on being the last one to see her. And this is a complex strategy that he's developed to either ensure his innocence or it's a genuine correction because he's innocent. And so if we see him getting angry at the person, if he was innocent and this event, he had nothing to do with it and this event kind of ruined his life, people calling him murder, I think he might also get angry. I'm not sure. But there's a strange component to his correction though. He uses the word admit as if there's someone he knows who saw her later. As if he's aware that there is someone who saw her after him who might have been questioned by police or maybe somebody he knows. At this point, I would definitely not rule out involvement at all. I think I was last. Yes. A little less. All right. I give that one chase. All right. That's how you do it. I don't know. Someone on the island that she might have met before. That was my first reaction. I mean, I've heard things like an international hit squad, for instance. I don't know. It's probably all speculations too. I heard stories that she was in Venezuela sold into slave slavery or sex slavery. I don't know. People are just trying to make up stories to find out what happened and it's all sad. Well, you're the last guy that was with her. And I mean, you, I mean, you're still. I was the last guy that admitted to be with her, but okay. Okay. What is the worst thing you think you've done since the fall start? The worst thing I did was leaving her there at the beach. That was the worst thing, possible thing I could have done and then lie about it to try and, yeah, to try and make myself not look bad, I guess. The lies began the day after Natalie disappeared when Yoran was brought in for questioning by police. His lie that he and the Calpo brothers had dropped Natalie off safely at the Holiday Inn. That lie caused two casino security guards to be falsely arrested. And why did you do that? Well, I didn't, I didn't really think something bad happened to her. And I don't think anyone in Aruba did because it's the truth. Tourists come to Aruba. They come to have a good time and sometimes they don't show up at night or two and then they come back to their hotel. I thought that was the case. The local police probably also thought that was the case. And I just always hoped she would just show up. And that's, yeah. And what went through your mind when, I mean, she didn't show up? Well, when she didn't show up for the first couple of days, I was like, okay, but, you know, maybe she's still with someone else. Then after a while, because there were seven days between when we gave our first witness statement and we were arrested. And I was just, I was just thinking, I thought about going to the police and telling the truth, but I really couldn't because I lied to everyone. I lied to my parents. I lied to my friends and... So you... Mark, what do you got? Yeah, what have I got? Oh, just a little thing here. Maybe she's still with someone else. Maybe she's still with someone else. Single shoulder shrug on that. I know we've talked a lot about shoulder shrugs and just like you say, Chase, there's not a lot of clusters around some of these. But in this particular interview, there is some kind of consistency, not to any language extent, but there is, you know, I'm interested that there seems to be a strong consistency with the single shoulder shrugs and the double shoulder shrugs that I would suggest. Maybe she's still with someone else. Yeah, he doesn't think that she's with someone else. It's not a part. Now, you know, if we didn't know that there was a conviction, you know, we wouldn't hammer down on this because there's all kinds of reasons why somebody might think that this person is with someone else. It's certainly a possibility. But in this case, it's it's most likely deceptive, I would say. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, so guys, one of the things we have the advantage of doing is sitting and watching this in video, as opposed to sitting face to face cross with him. The disadvantage we have is we don't control the questions. I could take a lot more detail with questions than this guy is effectively doing, although he is very effective at creating stress. I want you to go back and look at video nine and then look at what this video does. Video nine is where Vandersloot gets really awkward around the last time he saw Natalie and around getting into the vehicle. What did she say? And there was a pattern of behavior that caused me to be upset and concerned. And that was his cadence. His cadence shifted. His cadence and rate of speed here is very increased. He shows distaste or disdain when he says because when he's trying to give him a reason. And there's kind of a choking sound before he said, I thought she would just show up. That's another tick outside of baseline. Does it mean anything? Well, it's outside of baseline. Anytime there's something outside of baseline that we haven't seen to now, we really want to pay attention. It's interesting because he loses the ability to construct a sentence as he's slowing down and walking through. What we don't know is what he's thinking. What we can tell is that he's thinking about something at the same time he's trying to string a sentence together. What it is, don't know, could be ice cream. We don't know. But what we do know is something has part of his mind in a way that it shouldn't for him to be able to answer truthfully. That gives me a red flag and that becomes part of my interrogation, planning and approach that I would go after him with. Scott, what do you got? All right. I think he's adapting by pushing his hands down his pocket and he's and that sort of braces him and he gets braced because we see him scooch back and forth a little bit on his legs. And then he actually does back up a little bit as he starts to answer. And Mark, I'm seeing that as a cluster. I'm taking the hands into the pockets, which I didn't pay attention to this last one. That's what I'm going to call the cluster. And when we see clusters, that's what we're looking at. That's what you want to look for when you're trying to decide if someone's being honest with you or not. There are a lot of people who tell you, oh, the single shoulder shrug, like we've been saying, that doesn't mean anything unless you see some other things going along with it. It's not in his baseline. And all of a sudden, that one pops up. And so when you leave here, we're talking about single shoulder shrugs and really fast shoulder shrugs or double shoulder shrugs. Don't take that as, oh, I know what that means. You've got to look at it as though they're not absolutes. Absolutes are things that people take for granted and say, every time you see this, it means that. Every time somebody does that, that means they're lying. That's the problem with body language today on the internet. That's what we're all the time griping about is when people give you examples of absolutes. Mark's being defensive, right? Yes, he is. And get off Scott's lawn. Man, get off my lawn, you Brit. What would you be, you Canadian Brit? So what would you be in British, what would you be? Yeah, both, both. No, oh yeah, because you are both. Okay, I got nothing for that one. Yeah, yeah. Oh well, Greg, what do you got? Oh, Chase, what do you got? So I'm not seeing a whole lot here. And I would suggest that two things are happening. Number one, it is if all four of us spent a month training somebody to be deceptive, it would still be very, very difficult if that person was then put on the spot. So we're not seeing a whole lot here. But think about the questions. If he was there and then left and left and someone else came to take care of, you know, what had happened or maybe move the body or take care of the body. That would make these questions more likely to be honest. Just want to throw that out there. That's all I got. Everybody vote on that one. If you're watching, vote on who won that lean in. The lies began the day after Natalie disappeared when Yoran was brought in for questioning by police. His lie, that he and the Calpo brothers had dropped Natalie off safely at the Holiday Inn. That lie caused two casino security guards to be falsely arrested. And why did you do that? Well, I didn't really think something bad happened to her. And I don't think anyone in Aruba did, because it's the truth. Tourists come to Aruba, they come to have a good time. And sometimes they don't show up at night or two and then they come back to the hotel. I thought that was the case. The local police probably also thought that was the case. And I just always hoped she would just show up. And that's, yeah. And what went through your mind when, I mean, she didn't show up? Well, when she didn't show up for the first couple of days, I was like, okay, but maybe she's still with someone else. Then after a while, because there were seven days between when we gave our first witness statement and we were arrested. And I was just thinking, I thought about going to the police and telling the truth, but I really couldn't, because I lied to everyone, I lied to my parents, I lied to my friends, and. So you say that lying is the worst part? Yeah. But why did you lie that first? Well, I lied basically because I was scared. And yeah, that's the truth. Right, you lied because you were scared? Yes, because I didn't want to admit to leaving her alone at the beach. I know what I did was wrong. And for lying, I probably deserved to be in that jail for three months. But I didn't do anything against the law and they have to let you go. They have to let me get on with my life and I hope you guys let me get on with my life too. Are you still a suspect? Yes, I'm still a suspect. How does it feel to be a suspect? It doesn't feel good, of course. And I hope that when the 30 days pass, I'm not a suspect anymore. Since the strongest lead investigators had to go on was that Yoran and the Kalpo brothers were the last known people to see Natalie before she went missing. The suspects needed to be questioned closely. What were the interrogations like? The interrogations, of course, were horrible because they put stuff in your head. I think if you have a weak person in the interrogation room, even if they're innocent, they'll admit to doing a crime just to be let alone, just for them to leave them alone, to get something to eat, to get something to drink. The Rubin interrogators might have been even a little kinder than the Dutch interrogators because they really try and make you guilty even if you're not guilty or not. All right, Chase, what do you got? Right at the beginning here, we see him experience what's called a vocal tremor. And this is when our adrenaline goes up. It starts jiggling some muscles down here. I'll just leave it at that. But I think it's interesting to note that he's open about announcing that he's a suspect. And he's honest about the interrogations being stressful. And he's not specifically demonizing the police, but just the methods that they used. So when we come back here for the next one, I'm gonna drop a theory that might be incredibly shocking. But I think it could explain if we're seeing somebody who's innocent, this theory might explain it. So I'd like to play devil's advocate on occasion. Mark, what do you got? Exciting, exciting stuff. Why did you lie is the question? And the answer comes back, well, I lied basically because I was scared. So there's nine words in that. And two thirds of those words, I would say are filler. Because you could reply, why did you lie, I was scared. Why did you lie, I was scared? That for me would be a decent answer. If you add, well, I lied basically because there's something going on. There's something going on there. So now, obviously we look for clusters. And with that we get a single shoulder shrug. We get a little tongue jut out to the side and we get a look of contempt as well. The side of the mouth goes up. And at the end of all of that, we get a qualifier. And the qualifier is, and that's the truth. Just in case, just in case you were concerned by all the body language you saw and all the fillers, he sees you off at the pass to go, by the way, that's the truth and frames it nicely. That for me, I would say, is some deception going on. Deception about why he lied. Why is he being deceptive about why he lied? Well, he probably lied because he did it, didn't he? He probably lied because he murdered the victim. That's a strong possibility. But I'm open to other ideas. Scott, what have you got on this one? All right, is this 13? Are we on the right one? It's 13. It's 13, okay. All right. So when he says, lying is your worst crime? When he answers, yeah, it's really quiet. It's way too quiet. It's sort of like what's her face did on Dr. Phil's show, what was her name? Candice from Candice and Dawn. When he says, that's the worst thing you've done. He goes, yeah, like that. That's fading facts. I mean, that's your trying to, your brain goes, dude, we can't lie about that, but you lie anyway. That's what happens when you do that. An interrogation, one of the things you look for is what just happened. You look for something when a person gives you an answer, you look for them to either get mad or you look for them to be calm. For example, when you run in or you go in and you first start, that's where I always would start that when you first go in, you say, because you want to try to get up in their business and see exactly what's going on. You want to try to push on them and see if you can get them mad or, and here's what you do. When you go in and the way I do it in my style, then I go in and I say, hey man, these guys are, they said you took the money or whatever it is from the bank or though whatever it is. They said you did this. Is that true? Did you do that? And they're either going to say, you know, no, I didn't, you know, they'll get all upset. You know, no, I didn't do it. It wasn't me. I didn't do it. Or I was in there, but I wasn't in there that long. I'm in there all the time. I didn't do it. Anybody could have done this. So many people could do that. And then you have the other style. And then you put that, you put that over here in your pile of, maybe they didn't do it. You, in your little pile of bricks of, maybe they didn't do it as you build that wall. Then you'll have somebody when you come to say, hey man, all these people say that you, you stole out of that thing. Is it, did you do that? And they'll go, no, I did not. You'll seem to be really calm like that. And not every time it's not one of the other, but in sometimes there's a lot of in-betweens. But when you hear an answer like that, that quick little at the end, yeah, like that, that's in that, for me, it goes in that same little pile of this guy, that's in my pile of, maybe they did that. That's what I think we're seeing there. I think that's, that's, that's fairly potent. And from my point of view, Greg, what do you got? Just a couple of things. Yeah, I think he is back to baseline chase your dead-own. When he's talking about the interrogations, we get a good solid baseline of what's normal for him as he runs through it. A lot less of the requests for approval, a lot less of that stuff going on. And then he does this push, pull word or qualifier mark at the truth. I love when somebody says, and that's the truth in an interrogation. Because I go, well, I got a list of things right here that you did not say were the truth. Let's go back over those. And that puts pressure on them because they just declared this to be the truth, but those other things they didn't. So it's a powerful tool to use an interrogation. And interrogation is best when the person can't see where you're coming from. If they can see where you're coming from upfront, it's very difficult to win because they can counter it, they can resist it. But if you're very good at what you do and you build approaches that make them feel safe or make them feel like they need to defend in a certain way and they think they can see it coming and you're coming in from another door, that's how you win in most interrogations. Not with something that's, my least favorite interrogation we've ever watched was the one with the suitcase lady because it was an argument, I know you did it. No, I didn't, I was drunk. That's not how you, interrogation is not an argument. It is a subtle conversation with a lot of ploys, tricks and ruses to get the person to give you information that are not aware they're giving and then you close the deal with it. All the while getting them to trust you. And that is a tool. You can say, if this is the truth, what else on the list is not? Because you didn't tell me they were true. Now you put them at odds with self. The island is huge. So you say that lying is your worst part. Yeah. But why did you lie that first time? Well, I lied basically because I was scared. And yeah, that's the truth. Right. You lied because you were scared. Yes, because I didn't want to admit to leaving her alone at the beach. I know what I did was wrong. And for lying, I probably deserved to be in that jail for three months. But I didn't do anything against the law and they have to let you go. They have to let me get on with my life and I hope you guys let me get on with my life too. Are you still suspect? Yes, I'm still suspect. How does it feel to be a suspect? It doesn't feel good, of course. And I hope that when the 30 days pass, I'm not a suspect anymore. Since the strongest lead investigators had to go on was that Yoran and the Kalpo brothers were the last known people to see Natalie before she went missing, these suspects needed to be questioned closely. What were the interrogations like? The interrogations, of course, were horrible because they put stuff in your head. I think if you have a weak person in the interrogation room, even if they're innocent, they'll admit to doing a crime just to be let alone, just for them to leave them alone, to get something to eat, to get something to drink. The Rubin interrogators might have been even a little kinder than the Dutch interrogators because they really try and make you guilty even if you're not guilty or not. Just one more thing. Mark, what do you think we're seeing so far? Who cares what I'm saying? I wanna hear Chase's potentially bizarre theory. So, Chase, what do you got? Come on. Wow, you actually meant that. All right, so let me give you a quick summary here. What we're seeing suggests some potential for involvement, guilty knowledge, and concealment around specific areas where he mentions the last time seeing her specifically. If we use his later conviction to judge this video that might be a little immature or a beginner thing to do, so I tried to yank that out of my mind. So how would I rectify this? If he was innocent, how would I form a behavior profile of someone who would do it on the five-year anniversary later on, and actually he is a murderer. He's a convicted murderer. So one thing that might happen if he was innocent here, and I'm only saying this because I think it's an interesting thought experiment, is that being a young boy and called a murderer for years by thousands and thousands of people can build up inside of somebody. I don't have 30 minutes to go through this, but at that age, with that behavior profile, the wall separating your self-identity and what people say about you still has a lot of holes in it. So social opinion is tremendously powerful. If this happened, and then his identity changed, this could have led to the emotional hormonal peak at the anniversary of this disappearance and caused him to finally fulfill this identity as a murderer and a killer. And this is when he actually killed somebody. I'm in no way saying this happened. Just wanted you to see one of the avenues that I had to take this morning to try to rectify that. Greg, what do you got? Or he could be a big old liar, and he starts off as a big old liar, and then he's a murdering big old liar, and we still don't know whether he killed or disposed of Natalie Holloway. What we do know is that there are patterns of behavior in this guy. We went back to video two, his cadence shifts and all those things around details. Anytime we ask him a hard detail question, he starts to shift and shuffle and hide time. That's important because when you're hiding time, it gives you a chance to not talk about a specific thing. Then there's that arrogant personality explosion. Now, Chase, if I have an arrogant personality and entitlement and you're poking and prodding me, it's the fifth anniversary of a trigger point. So maybe he's always been just a big old liar. Then we get to nine, and on video nine, we see this entire body language shift, an entire baseline shift and a dance around what were the last things she said, what was the last thing you did, how did you get in the vehicle? We don't hear any words that this young woman said in the entire conversation. Go to 12, we're back to awkward language of video nine. He's back to doing the same thing as he's dancing around about why he would go and tell these guys. I'd take all this stuff and I would use it in an interrogation to go after him. And I would go after him by using establish a report. Hey, good to meet you, boom, boom, boom. You go through all that. But then there's an approach phase. And that approach phase is where I start poking this guy. Scott, you called it spinning him up. I'd do pride and you go down. I'd call him names, I'd pick on him, take away that sense of entitlement. And then I would go after that hidden time. I would uncover that. I would use his, this is honest. And I would start taking apart lists of things he did all the while not allowing him to hide information. And I'd ask him what this girl said and go after him. But that's not what we're going to see. Number one, this kid was 17 when we're watching these videos. He's much older and has been in the prison system. He's gonna be in a very different place now. Number one, but number two, he's not going to be tried for this. He's gonna be tried for extortion in the courts of Alabama. But we'll see him on stage and we'll talk about it. Scott, what do you got? I think this is a great example of seeing somebody who thinks they're a good liar, but they're not a good liar at all because we're seeing right through most everything or it looks deceptive to us anyway or to me anyway. So I think it's a great example to see someone who's really, really confident with themselves, but they're trying to hold back the emotions they have when these questions are being asked. Because like I said before, I think this guy is a powder keg. And I think that we're seeing a lot of anger being held in when he's asked some of these questions. I think it's a great example of seeing clusters of cues that let us know that there's deception there that suggests deception at that, during questioning. All right, thanks to another Gooden-Vels and we'll see you next time. Good reference to powder keg, all the 94-year-olds watching will totally get that. There you go. Did I ever tell you guys about the time I got kicked out of Lord of the Dance? What? Yeah, I got kicked out of Lord of the Dance. Were you on stage? Were you on stage? Best thing that's ever happened in Lord of the Dance. Okay, so check this out. So I've wanted to go see Lord of the Dance, right? So I said, yeah, well, we'll go. And because, you know, so I called some people, I knew that worked at TPAC, that's where it was. And I said, look, man, I need the best tickets you can get me for Lord of the Dance. And they said, okay, cool. So they hooked me up, man. They were like in the fourth row, right? Right in the middle, right? And they're great seats and you could, it's not those things where you're looking way up but you're looking right at it. You're at the perfect place, right? So when they first come out, you know how everybody's doing that thing where they dance around and they're moving around and their arms stay to their sides with their legs are like doing this number here. And there's like, they're zipping around real fast. We can never, none of us can ever really do that. That's going on. And that goes into playing this, man, the music was fantastic for this thing, right? And so they all are out there dancing around all kind of, you know, the guys and the girls and all of a sudden they form a circle, right? And they're all going kind of back and forth like this and this big, this circle is kind of mood. Then smoke starts coming out from both sides of the stage, right? So you can't see them from like the knees down, right? So at this, right, right there at that point, then the circle opens up and out from the side of the stage, here comes the damn Lord of the dance, right? And he's given one of these or his arms back like this and his head's back and he's flying. This cat is flying, man. And you can't see his legs move. So it looks like he's like a pinball in there jumping around, you know, and he's got this cod piece thing on and I get the shits and giggles. And I started laughing and I couldn't get a hold of it, right? And so, and it got so bad. I was laughing so hard that people were next to me, this man like hit me like that. And I was like, I'm sorry, I can't help it. And I kept laughing because he kept doing it, right? And so everybody else was going, eh, eh, eh, like that. But it was pretty loud. So they had to do it further down when they were doing it, right? So then there was this, I saw the usher coming and he was coming down and I knew he was coming for me. I said, and I was like, he's like getting one of those. I said, no, dude, I promise I'm gonna keep it under control again and he went like that. He went, no. And I said, I promise I'm gonna keep it under control and he kept doing that. And then I just started laughing again and I could not get a hold of it. It got so loud that the Lord of the dance as he's flying around, popping around, he's giving, he's looking at me at the side as it's going around because he thinks something's going down over there, right? And I'm just getting kicked out for laughing. It was, it was, and she was so mad at me. So what do you got? So what do you got?