 Hello and welcome to CISL's Webinar today on our most recent publication, Let's Discuss Climate, the Essential Guide to Bank Client Engagement. I'm Annabel Ross, the Program Manager for the Banking Environment Initiative, and I will be your host today, introducing the Banking Environment Initiative and Bank 2030 before handing over to Yasminga Endelay, who's one of our project managers on the guide, who will give us a brief tour, before opening up for panel discussion and a Q&A with you, with four panellists, our colleague from CISL, Thomas Faganst, David Carlin from UNEPFI, Peter Canning from HSBC, and Delphine Kenney from BMP Pariba. I encourage you as much as possible to engage with us, we will be having polls as part through the GoToWebinar platform during the presentation. We will also be inviting you to put your questions on both the guide and the important topics that surround the topic of bank client engagement through our question panel in the GoToWebinar platform. It's got a question mark, it looks like you're sending a question to IT, but it is to us, so please do submit those as we go along so that we can bring them into the discussion. So far today we have got over 200 participants joining from across the world. We have over 51 different financial institutions registered to listen to this presentation today. And so we thank you very much for joining, we know how busy our time is and we appreciate you joining us. Recognising how busy the sustainable finance landscape is, I'd like to move on to the next slide to introduce CISL and the Banking Environment Initiative to those of you who are new to our space within the ecosystem. CISL is the Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership and it sits within the University of Cambridge. As part of the activities that we do, education is a huge part of that and Thomas from the panel joins us from that department. And we also do research and convening as well as an accelerator for SMEs who are looking to embed sustainability right from the beginnings of their journey. In the research and convening, you have the Banking Environment Initiative who, as I said, is me and the host of this webinar today. And we sit alongside ClimateWise and the Investment Leaders Group who represent the insurance sector and the asset management and owners that form the Centre for Sustainable Finance at CISL. We're joined across CISL by the Corporate Leaders Group, UK and Europe, who bring together corporates and financial institutions who engage on policy. You'll see on the slide at the moment nine global banks, they form our membership of the Banking Environment Initiative and fund the research and development that we do. And you'll see on the right hand side how we do that research, it is in partnership with academics. So we bring that academic rigor to the work that we put to you today and we have in the past as well. We engage across the spectrum to making sure that what we put to you is actionable and relevant and brings in different perspectives. And the collaboration that the publications like The Guide today saw collaboration with the insurance sector, with the investment sector and with the real economy and the initiatives that form the sustainable finance such as CDP, UNEPFI, World Resources Institute. So again, we thank you as well for the collaboration to bring this together. And through our members, we bring together the people who actually bring this into the real workspace and hopefully create real economy change and accelerate the transition to net zero, which is the objective of this work. We help our banks through their membership to build internal capacity. There's project pilots that have been part to make sure that this guide is fit for purpose, as well as consulting to iterate and improve the language, the reality of it, as well as the ambition, and it is from that place that we start this particular project. To give you some tangible examples, I'll whistle through a few of our recent publications alongside this. So on the next slide, you'll see the two pillars to the bank environment initiatives work. One is protect and restore nature. The other is decarbonising the global economy. Fintech has been a focus of ours in the past, as well as the nature piece and banking beyond deforestation and the nature related financial risks project sees a pillar of six years worth of work. And we're currently working on the use cases for nature related financial risks. So I encourage you to look to our website for more information, if those are topics you're also looking at. From a decarbonisation perspective, Bank 2030 and the Let's Discuss Climate Guide are the focus of today's presentation. I will talk you through Bank 2030 in a second, but just so you know, we're also working with UNIFFI TCFD Modules and David and our panel joins to share a bit about that. And also the SME Climate Hub, both building on the work we've done to date so that we can continue to bring this forward and make it as useful and as actionable as possible. So on the next slide, I'll just give you a brief summary of Bank 2030, which was a piece of research put forward by the Banking Environment Initiative and CISL during 2019 and published in 2020, which looked, well, first of all, it interviewed 100 different stakeholders from around the banking sector and to work with the banking sector and mapped out the journey you see on the slide now. So really what it means to influence the low carbon economy and to take a proactive stance to working with real economy clients and companies so that we can see an acceleration to the transition. You see the banking as usual zone. Quite a lot of banks are still in that that is looking at sustainability as a reputational concern as opposed to a fundamental existential concern. We're starting to see banks move towards the zone of transition, which is where today's pioneers are, and the zone of institutionalization is when by 2030 we will have seen banks incorporate forward-looking analysis in their risk models, that's transition, finance, risk, and we will really see employees, and that is the focus of today, embed and instigate those conversations with clients. Now it needs to start today and on the right hand side you see a wheel where we go through the different elements of a business and operating model of a bank. With the Banking Environment Initiative members we scoped out the different phases based on this bank 2030 research what really needed the focus of a collaborative space pre-competitive which is where we work as the university so that we can enhance the action that the most important institutions around the world can take. The need for C-suite engagement is important and clear messaging but really important and we want to go into that in a minute I'll hand over to Yasminca is this client customer service model where we equip and empower client facing colleagues to feel comfortable talking about the complex topic that is climate related risks and opportunities. So without further ado I will hand over to Yasminca now so Yasminca if you'd like to turn your video on and microphone on and from there we can go into the guide and a bit more detail. So welcome Yasminca one of the lead project managers on this. Thank you. Thank you so much Annabel. Hello everyone from my side. It's a very exciting to be here today and to present this guide and to share all the knowledge we brought together to create it and to support relationship partners. So the development of this guide was a logical consequence of a bank wanting to be the bank of an zero economy. So as you can see here on our curve of change it is the outer layer which is now it's time to be tackled. This means that this bank will support all of their clients in a transition towards an zero economy and building strategic partnerships is key. So equipping relationship managers who are client facing and so the interface between the banking economy and the real economy is from utmost importance. So throughout this engagement. This is where actually change and impact in the real economy will happen. So let's go through all of these phases in a bit. But before we start, I would like to ask you the audience one poll question. So and you can word on your screens. A portion of bank client meetings today involve climate related topics for you. During this research we did also some interviews with relationship managers and we know that it's a very very busy day and there are lots of topics relationship manager needs to talk but we also know how important and futuristic a climate related topic will be. So we would really, really love to know what percentage of all your client meetings maybe today this topic is already one. So I think you can word on your screens. And yeah, very curious to see just wait a second. Do we see the do we have the results. Okay, so 20% have no climate related topics today and 20. So 25% or 40% of the audience have 25%. That's very interesting and oh just and 6% of the audience do have 100% of all of that. So the client meetings are with including climate related topics that's a very interesting distribution. So, of course, this this work is here to enable the relationship managers to talk and we will see an increase in in client meetings which are covering this topic more in the future so thank you for that. So how does this guide work. I guess many of you have already had the chance to download our interactive PDF so it's currently an interactive PDF you can click through the phases you can click through the target outcomes. And how does it work so as a it's currently as a reference to inform client conversations, it can be for immediate use so if if their organization banks ready for that. But we do also see banks using it for to educate their employees first and then also to adapt it to the own organizational needs. Currently it's sector agnostic so that means we will in our future work focus on more on sector relevant and topics, and primarily it's designed for large corporate clients which will also be a tackle in in our future work and, for example, in our SME climate work. We designed this guide, and keeping in mind the busy days of relationship managers and the vast topic they need to cover in what we just think about the UK relationship managers dealing with Brexit, for example. So we tried to reduce the complexity of of the climate change transition topic as much as possible, but at the same time we need also to represent all the relevant relevant topics. We try to reduce the complexity also in that way that we know that banks to banks are posed several questionnaires so for example the CDP financial institutions questionnaire. We took we teamed up with the CDP as well to align these questions so that. So, once the relationship manager ask a question that's client it goes through the bank into the portfolio and into the reporting so that it's all aligned and all based on actually the same form of information. The topic of the transition of our economy towards net zero is a trans transformational one so you can see this also here, we have five faces, we have 45 questions, and we are also offering 85 resources so this is an evidence that this guide cannot fit into a business as usual way of doing things. So the banks operating model like we post in bank 2030 work represented by Annabelle earlier needs to fit to the sustainability strategy as well. So what outcomes can you expect from from our guide is a deep understanding of your clients business and financing needs so building stronger partnerships. Secondly, you will have clarity on where the bank can innovate and derive commercial benefit, which is in line with Paris agreement. And third, the banks can decarbonize its portfolio and deliver also on the net zero commitments they they made. So on the next slide, I would like just to zoom into the structure. So here we see the assess phase soon in so the guide each. And before each phase, you are given support in the why each phase is important how to prepare and what's meaningful questions to take into the client's dialogue so we help out with the resources. We know there's a lot of information out there and it's so we did this work for you to cut it down to see what's what's most relevant and so that the banks banker can learn and yeah and also to be able to sign posts for the client. And we also foresee that relationship managers will return to this to the guide as as we go in the transition journey with a with a client as the journey progresses and and the financing strategy progresses as well. It's also very constant that relationships managers cannot do an act alone so they will need support from the organization and this is also where we say also where we made some suggestions to this to so in brief each phase will detail the why and puts it into the topic. The face will tell the relationship manager how to prepare for the discussion what meaningful questions to ask where to find resources and who to partner up with in the bank. Now let's zoom into the faces on the next slide. As you can see here, we have a circle which represents a chronological chronological journey. The five phases are setting the scene assess design structure and review. The client transition journey will not be done only in one sitting or two with the client. The circle represents the whole transition journey of a client of a corporate and therefore maybe will take five to 10 years. And this is why we say the relationship manager will come back to the to the client so we don't expect all phases being set up maybe some phases of you already started in within the bank. So let's have a look at these at the faces itself so in setting the scene the bank. So the bank and set the scene how the bank can open up the conversation and how the bank and start this dialogue. So this phase can also be done for the bank as a whole, for example in client in client workshops, and it's an opportunity to position the bank, which has taken sustainability as very very seriously. Now the assess phase assess phase is about digging deeper where the client is and client starting position actually. It's about clients come footprint, it's grasps of risks and opportunities which come with climate change. It's about understanding clients innovation structure, which can lead to change of the business operating model mostly should change. Once you understood where your client is you know how much time you need to spend in the design phase. The design phase is about supporting your clients in designing the transition plan. So we are very cognizant that this might be outside of banks remit to design transition plans with the clients. But this phase shows banks support and knowledge to sign post partners in this field. Every business will need to design their own climate action plan. And while this design faces outside of banks remit. It remains in the relationship manager sphere of influence so it is not. It should not be structured. So the client should not structure it without the support on the KPIs, which are financial and it should fit the strategy. Alongside the client putting together their transition plan the design phase also ties in the bank skill as they put together the overall vision for short medium and long term finance strategy to support the clients transition plan. It's recommended that companies link up and check for the KPIs. In the next phase the structure phase. So this is the phase where the each bank can be at their best with their innovative innovative innovative products and in this phase it's about the product offering and and the opportunities are crystallizing. So here we need to see the fit between the transition plan and the financing strategy, which also can mean to change the current financing commitments into completely new ones. So the bank needs to be open to this as well. And here the relationship manager is working with the product specialists to make sure that all of these the whole vision with a short medium and long term goals is supported. And this is of course where the revenue happens. Then we have the last phase and the last phase is a review phase and we foreseen this if once this guide is implemented to be the longest phase so this is about making sure that the client is delivering on the agreed KPIs. But really important also to share what was learned along the journey with others in form of best practices and this expansion of knowledge and making sure everyone is is driving that that strategy. The world once we've arrived in the in the review phase the world will for sure have been changed and we will have some new research and the set the transition pathways will look different. So in the end one the review is accomplished we start to set the scene again but maybe in a couple of years because the world has changed. Okay, so these are the five phases and I would like to go back to you the audience and ask you our second poll question to see which phases you think your bank is delivering on today. We are very. We know that relationship manager can't act alone so there must be some supporting infrastructure from from the risk department from the strategy department from communications department from products department and so they all need to support. The relationship manager to really be able to deliver on what's offered. And maybe some of some of you who are now listening, you already had set the scene, or that you are, you set the scene and you have assessed your clients, or you assess your clients you design and structured, and maybe you've done all of them. So would be really nice to see the votes to see how where your bank is delivering on today. There we go. Oh, I'm very surprised so we have 34% and setting the scene 40% so the majority are setting the scene and assessing already that's very, very good to hear. 16% are designing and structuring and 10% doing all of it. So, thank you very much for this it's very encouraging I think also for you to see okay there is some movement in the market. Everyone is doing something so if a bank is not doing anything you know okay it's time it's time to move. Thank you very much. And now next slide and last slide about about the questionnaire. I would like to deep dive into just one particular question so you see here we. We have the assess phase question or the topic number 2.4 and it's about the company and how the company is transitioning I just want to showcase how the question is built up you have here three rows how the what and where. So how can the relationship manager best prepared so identifying the existence of a credible transition plan. And if this plan is aligned with Paris agreement and companies commitments. So what questions to ask so is there a transition plan or not and is the client clear on how the business operations and financing needs will evolve. Does the client work with external specialists to determine these goals and opportunities and also transition in in in aligned with sector leadership. And how is the organization performing against sector transition pathways. So these are very high level big questions which each bank later in the later stage can kind of adapt to their organizational needs. In the third row we say we are giving you support with resources so we have here five five links where we say OK this is where we would start to prepare for this one particular question. And for example we have transition pathway initiative which is already today assessing. Sector transition pathways of approximately 400 companies and maybe one of your client is part of that of this assessment already. And this is where you can derive your information from. So there I think mostly focus so more mostly focus on large corporate clients currently but they're expanding their companies. So that's a one one source for this kind of information. And as we as we mentioned before we don't foresee that it's in bankers remit to design a transition plan. But there are external partners where the bank can signpost to. And one of these are ACT from CDP so assessing the low carbon transition and their services to come up with a credible transition plan where we move towards a one point five degree company. And just to give one example of that. Good. Then we move to the last slide for this presentation. So how can your bank now use this guide. So this work is licensed under the Creative Commons attribution four point zero. That means that the license requires the re user to give credit to the creator. But it allows all re users to distribute mixed adapt and build up in the material so even for commercial purposes. On this flow flow line you see that what we as ESL deliver we said OK we will develop this guide and we will launch it together and we will also have some workshops with our. With some B.I. members or with all B.I. members. But from now on we are giving it into the space so with you the audience and so it's up to you to take it into your organization to brainstorm and pilot it and adapt it to your organizational needs and really to active use it in client engagement and to drive this impact. And you see also from the flow chart that. The next step is for us to again to pick it up and to make the next addition so this is a this will be a living thing this guide. We will have some improvements and for future addition additions and we will also we are aiming for digitalization so this work interactive PDF will once be digital tool. You also see here where this on this flow chart you see where this work is coming from like we said OK we had the phase one bank 2030. From there we said OK we want to push the banks. Further to be leaders in the space. This is why we are developing about bank client engagement guide. We will develop the bank client engagement guide. Further in 2022 but now we are focusing on the unified DCP program and also the SME climate hub so where Annabelle can tell us more about. Great. Now I'm giving over back to Annabelle. Thank you so much for listening. Brilliant. Thank you very much for a very very teasing teasing an introduction to the guide. There was a lot more to the guide and something that that we obviously had to do because of the complex topic is explain beyond the different phases. What net zero means to a bank and its clients the integration into existing business practices and we picked out a few elements of overcoming barriers to progress as well. Hopefully and I'd like to invite the panellists to turn on their videos and underneath themselves now. We will be able to dig into those a bit deeper things like the questions we've been seeing coming in sector specificity KPIs capital requirements. I will do a brief introduction of our panellists. Thank you all for joining and then we'll dig straight into questions. First thing we've got Thomas against program director of finance sector of education at CISL. So one of my one of my colleagues. And we have Peter canning global head of business development in sustainable finance at HSBC. Delphine Kenny out from BMP Pariba she is global head of sustainable finance and solutions in global markets. And David Carlin from UNEPFI who's the program leader TCFD and climate risk welcome and thank you very much. So what I'll do today is start off by trying to keep us within the phases that Yasmin could talk to us through and first of all ask a few questions around set the scene and we've had a few come in. Sorry if I'm looking that way it's because of the questions. And perhaps Peter let's start with you because there is that debate of how how strong can a client facing team be when banks are only just forming that zero strategies. So if you'd like to talk us through what it's been like as much as you can share but recognizing we're representing the banking sector here what it's like to set a net zero strategy and what that means for your clients. You could share a bit with us there. Yeah, thanks Annabelle. I think it's a great question to start off with with a guide about having conversations with our clients around climate change and sustainability. We like all companies I guess are on an evolution or journey when it comes to our climate agenda. And I've recognized that change over time and the phases we've gone through. So, early on I felt like much of our focus was just building awareness and getting people talking and understanding about climate change and what are the risks and opportunities that presents to us as an industry but also to our clients and just the role of change required to address the Paris Agreement goals. Then we moved into once that awareness was built building outer capabilities and most of that focus was on building products that were had some integration of sustainability criteria into that and you've seen that in the market I guess in 2017 when we as a bank set our first commitments there was really just green bonds as a label product in the market and over the intervening years we've seen a suite of products now that have specific sustainability criteria that can be applied. I think that's been a really helpful platform to enable conversations with clients. And what I've seen most recently then is similar to what we see with governments and other organizations and is a coalescing around net zero as a concept and an appreciation that these one off transactions or specific label transactions isn't sufficient. You need to have a more holistic review of what does this mean for your business. And so last year HSBC made its own net zero commitment. We weren't the first many others have joined us and I think especially in April this year than the net zero banking alliance coming together I think close to 50 banks were part of the initial set and many others will join. So I think that's a really important evolution of the market. What this means for us as financial institutions I guess is an appreciation that banks have these touch points across different sectors. Different types of companies and clients and importantly I think for companies like BMP Paribas HSBC many others is that we work across different geographies and I think that considering climate change as a global universal challenge across different types of companies different geographies. This change is required everywhere and I think that's why many people turn to the financial sector as one of the levers of influence and why I think this this guide to discussion discussing with clients is so important. And I guess drawing from our own experience is one of the things that we have to share with clients is our own implementation of our journey around implementing or developing our sustainability plans. I think something has me because talked about or touched on is also the the ability to share perspective and and experience or case studies with our clients and convening power I think is also really important in seeing that. And in different forums or financial institutions as well as businesses from other sectors come together to talk about how do we problem solve. And part of it are the financial instruments or capital that we can provide but also understanding our clients needs better to address climate change there's a common goal there. And I think all of that is really powerful and then ultimately of course is the ability to provide financial solutions that meet these goals. So that's kind of my summary of you know our journey as a bank around at zero but also what it means for our clients and how we can contribute. I think this is really well reflected in the guide itself. We've gone a lot into awareness and education and there's that there's the need to build greater capacity to recognize that there's a there's a huge challenge needs to be addressed urgently and we can't rely on a few specialists. There's a question that's come in that I think Thomas would suit the education piece which is is about assessing the gap and how do you address the gap between the current qualifications of bank advisors and the industry. Expertise required for this process and obviously you've seen some. You've seen lots of the work done with the financial sector what what kind of trends are you seeing and how can we begin to close that gap so that action happens. Yeah, it's a very valid question I think particularly because the space is moving so fast and we don't necessarily have all the solutions and all the answers. And so we're definitely seeing a massive uptick in interest in education across all fronts both my greater education. But also I sit within our customized executive education which is customized program for individuals organizations really trying to get the top of the strategic and practical implications of the transition to kind of a low carbon economy. And then also there's been a big rise in online offers as well and training courses specifically around sustainable finance and climate change and implications as a way of allowing people to go back to university and busy lives with a lot going on already, but actually to be able to learn on the go in much more sort of incremental bite size chunks. And so I think that kind of adaptability and people being able to revisit their learning throughout their career is definitely a trend we've seen and I think really important in the space because it is moving very quickly. And the trends and examples about good and leading practice practice is changes almost from from your TSE. And there's lots of resources out there do look at our website is information about education office. So plug if if you want to find out more about education. And I guess. This is from education we need to move into action and Delphine perhaps this is where we start to move, move around. And I'm going to jump, but past assessing going to the design and structure phase and we've had a question focused on how KPIs are different from industry to industry. From I won't say the names. I'm not sure I'm allowed to so but what do you're in your experience of dealing with clients from a from a talking about decarbonization strategies working out a funding strategy to support that investment. What have you seen as good practice and we're aware of the greenwashing element that we're seeing in the press. What are you seeing as the leading practice that can help avoid that and how do you work with your clients. Okay. And I think that's a very important question. The one you're asking about greenwashing to start with client engagement is absolutely critical when when it comes to sustainable finance it's a very collaborative effort this is why we're supporting this guy. And I completely didn't care with my colleagues here and HSBC, you know, joining net zero is part of your own journey but it's also part of a more global alliance of banks for the three banks have decided to do that and we all are doing it our own way but ultimately trying to achieve the single. So what we are trying to do when you want to avoid greenwashing is really to focus on two things. What is important and material for your client sector in particular and the ambition of the reduction of emissions. In a particular sector. The issue is not the past or the existing emissions from a particular sector or a particular company but the forward looking path. So we encourage companies to have their own targets. Approved by the science based targets initiative is possible to ensure that the targets are in line with the Paris. One and one five degree pathways the sub targets can be defined as well to drive progress, but it's very important to try to be as as a specific as possible for a particular sector but nevertheless also have a common language, common. Target and it helps as you've heard to have your own pathway. I think it's very relevant to engage with your clients on what you're doing yourself to align your own portfolio, how you are doing yourself to reduce your scope three emissions and the difficulties you have. I'm doing this because you relate much better to your clients and we do encourage our bankers in particular to to involve SFX but in all client interactions because it would be very easy to think that you can speak to you quite easily. In fact, it takes a little bit of time to understand the materiality of each sectors, the specific issues of of an into reducing scope one scope to scope three. And therefore, it helps to have an expert involved. More and more investors are focusing on scope three for instance. And it's very different from one sector to another commercial land loan might be expected to be 10 times. Having scope three emission 10 times higher than its scope one and two, and it could be completely different from another sector. So speaking the right language, having a common language of reference is part of this journey to avoid been washing and then ambition of the targets. I think moving through that the KPIs the benchmarks the sector specific things. David from your unified perspective and the broader picture really taking this out into the finance sector and how they can help the underlying economies that they support. What are you seeing as the tailwinds that help accelerate action on climate. Thanks a lot about it's great to be here and that's a really good question because you know my my oh my it feels like there's there's quite a lot of linden ourselves these days which is terrific. Of course, as Peter had mentioned with the net zero banking alliance being launched and the Glasgow financial alliances for net zero on those collective efforts. So it's not work that we at UNEP a fire doing on the convening side, but I would really like to kind of target three different drivers or three different kind of collective wins. The first being starting with those initiatives, I think that there is a growing corporate energy toward this and in the financial sector, a tremendous desire to recognize that this is that this goal of net zero is not something that makes you a green outlier, but very soon will be compulsory or near compulsory because this is where your peers are going, and this is where your customers and your employees expect you to go. And I think we tend to jump best when we jump together and so these collective organizations. And again I'm not unbiased as we are the conveners of the acid owner alliance and the banking alliance but to say there's been a ton of really good work from the institutions within there to challenge each other and push each other to to adhere to standards and make this a, a reach goal, but rather to reset the expectations within the sector so I think the first is coming internally from institutions. The second and we can't, you know, overstate the importance is, is the regulatory push we're just seeing constantly a awareness of regulators picking up again on the private sector initiative of the TCFD but just last Friday we had the executive order from an administration directing Treasury Secretary Yellen to more fully explore climate related financial risks. We've seen guidance and and request for consultation both from the US SEC, as well as the BIS in the UK. There's been good work done on piloting exercises that begin to explore stress testing, whether the impending stress testing in the UK, or results from exercises like those within France. We recently released just yesterday a quite interesting paper about some of their assessments of how institutions are exposed and I think these things this recognition of rising standards this recognition of mandates and potential future sanctions even though right now we're seeing far more carrot than stick. Those things definitely matter. And then the final point is the real economy itself. We're in the same place we were in 2010 and I think that this is why is so valuable to look at what the IEA has put out as really a state of the art view of getting to net zero and why it will be so immensely interesting and valuable to see what NGFS releases in early June with their scenarios and also what the IPCC releases in their their latest assessment report in the next several months because these are really updating the key assumptions about our world and the world that we looked at several years ago. It's a world where solar was quite expensive but plunging in costs a world where coal was growing. It's a very different shape and the business opportunities, and whether it's the social license on the consumer side to continue these activities, or the simple economics of levelized cost of electricity being cheaper for renewable sources, improvements in battery power. These are things that I think institutions are highly aware of. So even if you were to strip out the collective effort, even if you were to strip out the regulatory mandate, there is a strong and ever strengthening business case for this type of work. And what that means is really taking institutions that you're working with taking clients by the hand and understanding where they are and what role they see themselves playing. But coming at this, I think a great thing that banks can do and one of the real valuable pieces that I see of the work that you've done is to recognize that financial institutions and banks in particular have such a wide remit over their exposure to the real economy. And in some ways that can help to show where the pieces fit together and to get outside of a particular industry or activity and into how these pieces connect in terms of supply chains, in terms of markets. And I really think that this is the place where finance can really pump the gas on this no pun intended on this transition. And, and I see that economic rationale being not only a strong case for engagement but also an urgent case for future competitiveness and opportunity seeking. Thank you, David. I mean, it's a really good summary of the interconnectivity of everything we do and I think it's worth me highlighting at this point that the guide and it's been a question is why are we focused only on climate in this in this particular webinar, perhaps in the guide as well I'm going to, but that is because we've got a huge complex topic. We at CISL in the banks as well I presume are very aware of how interconnected sustainability is and that's the nature related elements that social that's economic, and it's a very global issue as well as well as the complexities for the ambition of being able to share something that can move the needle. We simplified into a core essence, but we are very aware of that and, and look forward to hopefully building out similar and a more advanced guides in different topics that bring together those different pieces. And we're getting quite a lot of questions we talked about tailwinds David and we've heard some positive stories but we are getting quite a lot of questions that we cannot ignore, bearing in mind. The group we are about the obstacles as well and there are two main core things and if one is one is capital requirements and and the fact that if we saw in the poll. We had the set the scene in the assess phase is the web where most banks or the majority of felt they got to what what if we get stuck here is the question with where the design and structure phases are hampered by the considerable changes that need to happen in the way that banks risk teams, the regulatory structures and the incentive structures within banks work and then the second one will come on to perhaps is is what happens if nothing changes if the if the client isn't ready to move the sector isn't ready there aren't viable alternatives but if we tackle tease that one after if we could tackle and perhaps that capital requirements and building on what David said I think I'd like to bring I'm Delphine or Peter and at this point. Whoever feels ready to to a pine on on the need for capital crimes and what kind of change we might like to see Delphine would you like to start. Yeah, sure. I think you absolutely right there is a need for a building capacity and therefore helping investors to basically convey their expectations to to issuers to attract private capital to issuances. So it's part of the work obviously to listen well to investors and bridge the requirements of potential issuers and investors and to try to see you know how this can be done. And it easy because, for instance, a potential issuer is moving very fast, they will have their own experts. And we can have discussions immediately at the right level on the decarbonizing strategy sometimes it's, we need to take a step back and have multiple conversations at different level in the organization with different people team teams, and so on to progressively you know help shaping a particular strategy. Sometimes it goes so quick that you know for instance we've been involved with with a company who didn't have a head of the ESG in November. But we had extensive discussions in Jan, the head of ESG was recruited in February they went to the market. It was spectacular in terms of speed of action. There are obviously lots of ways of building capacities and it's not just about banks, but it's also different type of products and, and obviously we know the roles also of the public sector can help in some specific areas. Whether with their skin projects or, or helping where maybe banks have difficulties and, and banks I think have a huge role to play in creating or promoting together with investors, transparent frameworks, robust frameworks, and, and making sure that transparency and user proceeds, how funds are being allocated, they can be, they can be put to use actually with a positive impact is being, is being incentivized. So, all these, all these elements help with building capacity. And we know very well that there are some areas where it's quite easy to raise funds or for instance, in the IG world it's more easy than in some investment grade. In the survey in grade one in emerging markets specific challenges as well. So this is, this is how we think we can build capacity, which is to really target the pockets, the gaps in the financing and address them by having the right frameworks and as was mentioned earlier on, right engagement between the different parties. Indeed, so there's certainly a role for, for policy in this space and for building, building a structure that can create a risk basis but also some opportunities where we can mobilize capital towards those which is very much where the guide starting from is is seeing this as a proactive opportunity that that banks of the future will will move towards as fast as possible as a competitive advantage that has a positive impact on the societies that we work in. And, Peter, would you like me to, would you like to add anything on there. Yeah, I guess, maybe just an observation I know for several years people have have this notion that if I'm doing the right thing there should be some reward for me and through pricing or some, some kind of incentive as it's often referred to. And I think as David said, and Duffin as well but I think that there's been a maturing, I guess to recognize that these are, these are no longer just kind of altruistic activities, these are really strategic decisions and we're talking about re re orienting how capital is applied to support things that are consistent with the goals of the Paris Agreement or net zero. And I think that there's a little bit of still status quote rules or what's familiar and things that have been approved before or you can present with more confidence to a capital allocation committee or such. But I think that we're moving into an area where there needs to be much more of a thoughtful decision making of thinking like applying a climate lens to all of these activities and having that be part of the decision making and approval process and to help get us around like overcome maybe some inertia that still maybe exists and how, how we tend to operate is just what's been done before is easiest to do again. I mean, tackling tackling that question of what what do you do if there is an action whether it is from the bank I know we've got lots of other organizations on who have not yet made net zero commitments there's also interactions happening in meetings where the client or the community is not seeing that the the needs transition as a necessity as I said or there is not an alternative viable solution. Thomas would you like to come in because we haven't heard from you recently and have a comment or if not we can. My view from the outside full disclosure that I'm not a banker and I think these are not my clients that I think from the evidence of the science and the direction of the scenario saying which direction we need to travel in this great area that's leading to around the direction of travel. I think it is going to have to be some hard hard decisions being made. And obviously I think the guy and the guy to set up to have those conversations and guide people through that journey and help them, you know customers and clients build resilient business models for the future. And if there's ultimately no willingness and no willing to drive into change, then ultimately it might come down to some harder choices about, you know, do you come out of business and obviously that's the last resort you don't want to do these business and we need the whole of the economy to transition to be successful in this space. And, but I do think there might be some hard decisions down the line of people don't respond and they might have different choices around that space. And what the kind of point is I'm not exactly sure that the scenarios are saying like mentioned that international energy agencies for last week is pretty clear extent of the transformation that is required so probably sooner than many would like to admit would be my view. David, do you have any comments on that from an outside an outsider perspective by no means an outsider but I'm not a non bank perspective. Yeah, well, having worked with a large number of of financial institutions both in this work here but also previously as a consultant, what I would say is I think a lot of the reticence exists not just because of fears of competitive positioning or a view that this is I think maybe some years ago there was a little bit of that second one, but also I hear very often institutions saying, we're not really sure what we're committing to and we don't want to just make a commitment and have it be seen as greenwash and I think that that's, that's an important point which is understanding what pathway you were going to walk does require some thinking and anyone who I think is going to try to seize a PR coup by announcing that zero is going to find themselves under a tremendous amount of scrutiny when it comes to the execution of those plans and justifiably so, but I think that that has been one area of reticence and granted these regulations as well as these net zero alliances are beginning to pull that conversation to where maybe you can't be fully ready but you're, you have to jump into the pool and I think that that's good. When it comes to this question though of, of engagement. I've written a couple pieces about this sort of trade off between divestment and engagement and it's a bit beyond perhaps the scope here to talk about the relative merits but I think the key is that institutions financial institutions need to be willing to make the hard choices. It's always great to hear about the win-wins of, oh we invested in this small, this small company that is providing solar panels here or oh we worked with this municipality to build resiliency and that was, you know, a win-win, but we have to be realistic and when we look at these scenarios we see lots of businesses and lots of activities that will wholly be transformed or may not necessarily have a place in a low carbon world and I think it means being realistic and part of being incredible as an institution is being willing to make those hard choices and again I'm not saying one needs to divest but if that option isn't genuinely on the table, if that option of really pushing hard against those who are more trans, it doesn't exist if you, you know, only are filled with, with carrots for the, for clients, then I think your claims are not going to be as effective and as credible and I think there is a powerful effect within the financial ecosystem of the willingness to walk away, not necessarily that everyone should or that everyone has to but I think the willingness to make hard choices to me, that is the thing that is proof positive, not the fact that one has divested, not the fact that one is planning to, but rather that those options are on the table, to me is what gives leverage and gives the opportunity to really ascertain whether transformative change is possible in this instance, or whether in fact it isn't and in some cases, unfortunately, it won't be for certain companies and I think we should also be be open to that and and recognize it as well. Good. Contest of time and and I'm sure everyone else has got got the next webinar to join so I at this point I wish we could keep discussing and there are lots more questions that come in. We as the ISL will try to answer those with the participants directly after the call but just to wrap up a big thank you to the panelists this has been a very interesting debate we've tackled some important topics here of capital requirements greenwashing client in action. Interesting discussion and just to remind everyone like this is well to summarize and David at very well just then decarbonizing the global economy is not going to be easy, and it will involve some difficult decisions, and we just hope that this guide is is a step in the right direction that makes those those meaningful questions with clients and the preparation making sense of the different resources that exist. It's going to be easier for for not just banks that there's a financial institution application here and we encourage you to join the different pilots that are happening the unified TCFD modules. The SME climate hub we're looking into this from an SME perspective, and then the other groups at CI cells of climate wise are likely to pilot this guide for the insurance sector so lots of opportunities to dig in but like as Minka said, we think it's it's over to you. We welcome feedback and you can download it for free on the website of with your Google CI cell let's discuss climate and on the next slide. I encourage you to get in touch with me if you have any questions on the guide or on the banking environment initiative my email it's on the slide and Thomas Fagan who has joined us from our education team and very much there to support that set the scene and all the way around the the the wheel of let's discuss climate because it's it's it needs a big expansion of capacity and on that note we look forward to learning together and welcome you to engage with CI cell as you see fit so thank you for joining us, particularly as Minka, Thomas, Peter, Delphine, David and the team behind the scene Anna and Jason as well. It's been great to chat to you today and look forward to future work and discussions together. Thank you very much everyone. Thank you. Thank you.