 We produce enough food today to feed every single person in this planet well. There is no reason from a food production point of view that anyone should be going hungry. In the fact that 800 plus million people on this planet do not have enough food is not a production problem. It is a problem of distribution and poverty and the way our society is organizing itself, but it is not a problem of the food itself. Dana Gunders is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Dana is a national expert on food systems and was one of the first people to raise the alarm about how much food is wasted across the country and the subsequent impacts on the environment, food security and the economy. Dana has served as Refed's executive director since March 2020 and she has a long history with her organization having served as a founding board member when Refed was established in 2016. For almost a decade prior to her work with Refed, Dana was a senior scientist at Natural Resources Defense Council, NRDC, where she authored the landmark Wasted Report about food waste and testified before Congress. While at NRDC, Dana launched the Save the Food campaign with the ad council to provide consumers easy-to-use strategies to reduce food waste in their own kitchens. She then started next course, a limited liability company, to strategically advise organizations including Google and authored the popular Waste-Free Kitchen Handbook which I have right here. Dana has made a number of appearances in the media including PBS NewsHour last week tonight with John Oliver and Fox Business and she was called the woman who helped start the Waste-Free Movement by Consumer Reports. Dana, welcome to the podcast. How are you? Thank you, Mark. It's great to be here. I'm doing well. Good. That's glad to hear. So you started the new position during the pandemic. Yeah, I think we announced that I would be the executive director on March 13th and then the world shut down on the 16th or something. It was quite an interesting time. I guess that's a cushy way to slide into a new position, huh? Or did it cause you any new readjustments? I think it might have been cushy if I didn't have a three-and-a-five-year-old sort of, you know, thought I was that thought they were my job at the same time. So yeah, no. It was interesting, but actually it was fascinating to be working on this issue of how much food goes to waste during that time because, you know, right after the pandemic started, just the headlines were covered with on one hand just these piles of, you know, mountains of zucchini that weren't being harvested or all these stories of all the food that had sort of been stopped up by the shutdown of the hospitality industry and restaurants and all of that. And then on the other hand, you know, sadly, just those huge lines and the, you know, I have these visuals of the mile-long car lines waiting to get food pickups. And so there was very quickly a huge surge in interest in this issue of like how can we have so much food going to waste and so many people in need of food at the same time. And so yeah, it was interesting for sure. You and I both have a mutual friend and that's how we connected Diane Hatt's and I thank her very much and I'm glad that you can make it. But with your history, not only the book, which was written in 2015, came out in 2015, is fabulous for pools, tips, recipes, how to organize your fridge, how to use your fridge properly, how to use your freezer, how to do different tips. But you had a pretty long background in food waste and food in general and been a strong advocate. But now you're hit with these crazy times, not only the pandemic and Black Lives Matter and the inauguration, many other crazy political civilization framework unrest issues. And it seems like you've weathered it fairly well, but plus you're starting a new position within the organization and that. So I've suggested or I guess I would guess that you've weathered everything fairly good. But as me as well, a lot of these things bubbled to the surface and we saw where the systems are broke and you mentioned the zucchinis and other the big issues around food waste. I'm in Europe, I'm in Hamburg, Germany, and seeing a lot of food waste in the United Kingdom because of Brexit, but because also because of the lockdown enclosures. And there's some very complex issues or systems involved foods that run in the food systems that all tied to food waste or tied to migrant workers and pandemics and illnesses and lockdowns, what can create a pretty big ripple effect. So I want to know how have you weathered that truly and what aha moments, not only from your position and your personal life came up and where you saw, okay, this definitely needs to be on the roadmap going forward to solve some of these problems. Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I think the insights from the pandemic for me are a few or just this past year to your point, not just the pandemic, right? Everything of the past year. A few. So one was one thing we really saw succeed throughout, you know, there's a lot of discussion about the food chain is broken, right? Look, it's so broken. And I think there were there were some, you know, I don't think it's fair to expect that you can literally shut down half of the market and then have people have issues and call that broken, right? I mean, we can't we can't run a system planning to shut half of it down. That's not a good idea. So I don't know that I totally agree that it showed what was broken. I think what it showed was how not resilient it can be. And where what types of businesses are resilient, I think we learned a lot, you know, that terms become really hot recently. And I think we've learned a lot about what is resilient. And in my observation, the one of the key characteristics of resiliency was flexibility. So where we saw, you know, milk processors that only package into 20 gallon bags and all of their equipment is meant for these large institutions, right? They couldn't just switch on a dime and all of a sudden start producing milk gallons to sell in retail stores. But other models that were much more flexible, you know, we have a company here called Imperfect Foods, they, they take boxes from, you know, all sorts of places, and they sell them to consumers. And in between, they give consumers a list and they say, okay, this week, here's what we have available. And then people pick what they want and they get it shipped to them in a box. Well, they were able to take all sorts of things, right? Then not only were they able to take some of those, you know, farmers goods that had been selling into food service and just sell them directly to consumers. But they were taking like popcorn kernels from the distributors who typically sell them to movie theaters. And all of a sudden, nobody needed popcorn kernels, right? And they were just selling them to consumers and trays of little cheese trays from United Airlines have 40,000 extra cheese trays, right? That they were, they didn't know where to go. And instead, they were able to sell those through these boxes. And so that flexibility was huge during the pandemic. And I think is a key aspect of being resilient. You know, another example is the sort of local regional food system example. And, you know, near me, there's a food hub, it takes food from nearby farmers that sells it to restaurants and had just started selling directly to individuals. While they, their demand for those boxes they sell to individuals grew 10 fold during this. And they were very easily able to switch the demand, you know, the, the, the lettuce they used to put in for the, for the restaurant, just they put it in the box for the people and the farmers were, you know, much stronger for it. So resiliency was really in my mind, the flexibility was a key component of that. Another thing we saw was a huge surge in interest. Well, I don't know if it's interest or just necessity, but a huge increase in people cooking at home, right? And building those cooking skills. And everything I've seen is anticipating that people will continue to cook at home more for the foreseeable future. And along with that, we get better cooking skills. You know, that I've seen some charts that show that the amount of recipe searches around April, right after the pandemic started, were higher than over the holidays, you know, which is always the, the biggest time. And so, you know, people just seeking out advice on how to cook more, learning how to cook better, having to plan a little bit more because they're now shopping online or they're trying not to go to the store as much as forced them to actually build skills in meal planning and how to manage their food. And I think all of that is a big benefit. It's absolutely a huge benefit. And I'm glad that you notice that there are, I want to see if you notice some other things and maybe if you have some other comments. So not only in this kind of moment of resiliency, some people kind of get into a panic or hoarding mode where they are out there, not just the toilet paper, but in some, I happen to be there at the beginning of the lockdown of the pandemic where the US closed its borders and I was actually stuck there for a little while longer, so I could get back to Humber. And what I noticed in the grocery store is that the, the canned goods, the also junk food, a lot of the aisles were cleared empty, alcohol, drink aisles were, were cleared water, obviously, but only a few aisles per the over where the fresh produce was, no organics and fresh produce and they were pretty full, actually. And so I'd kind of like to hear what you saw on trends on the consumer end of it and what, what you were seeing through, I mean, you guys do a lot with reports and data and information throughout the United States as well. Did you guys notice that certain areas were harder hit than others and some areas that are food deserts and there's only fast food, there's no real fresh groceries or grocery stores close by that and things and did you also see that disparity difference between some shelves were totally empty and the fresh food was perishable, so to say, were pretty full? Yeah, you know, we, and our data analysis has not really dived into the pandemic yet, I think we're all still sort of waiting to, to see how the kind of annual things come out. But, you know, just in, in what I read and my observations and all of that, I think, and, and, companies I spoke with, sure, the, the big processor, the big brands that are the middle of the store, I mean, they, their sales were up two to three times average and they were, they were struggling to keep up. And then, but, you know, it kind of makes sense, if you're in the hoarding mentality, if you're sort of in that emergency kit building mode, you're not going to necessarily buy lettuce. So, you know, I think that's what happened is people were just sort of thinking, what if I can't leave my house for three weeks in a month, right? What do I need? And so, I think that made some sense, frozen foods as well, right? And the fresh stuff, you know, people, the other trend that was clear is that people really went back to comfort food. And so, I was, I was frankly surprised to go to my store and see, like, star fruit and papaya still. First, I was like, who's going to the store and buying star fruit right now, right? And, and I can't believe they're keeping that up through this, where, I mean, it was a, it was a financially good but very difficult time for the supermarkets, right? I mean, they just, your average supermarket carries in the US. In the US, the average supermarket carries about 50,000 different items. And even in normal times, it is challenging for them to predict for every single one of those, depending on the weather, depending on other sales in the store and all of that. It's really challenging to predict what they're going to sell, right? And that's a huge source of waste is just how much, you know, they, they don't nail that, that equation perfectly. So, you can imagine during the early days of the pandemic that it was just impossible for them to be able to keep up with a very erratic anomaly of demand, right? And so, you know, I think to me it makes sense that the fresh produce didn't go crazy. People don't necessarily know how to freeze, you know, they're not necessarily going to go buy a bunch of string beans and freeze them or whatnot. I do think it was an interesting time for frozen foods. You know, frozen foods are something that, well, it takes a little bit more energy to keep them frozen. They are a great solution for having fresh produce when you can't get to the store to get fresh produce, right? And they typically are frozen within hours of being harvested. The nutrients in frozen food maintain most of the nutrients, some of them they're even more because they haven't traveled as much and sort of been degrading, you know, getting older as the fresh stuff does. And so, I think frozen, you know, I know for me when I was sort of like unclear what was happening, I was really turning to frozen as my backup. And we were, you know, lucky to be able to stock our freezer with a bunch of frozen broccoli. We're still trying to eat that down, I swear. Yeah, there are some and that's something that you address a lot in your book. There are some fabulous sections on how to preserve some recipes, how to use your freezer, how to use your fridge, how to some tips and tricks just for the everyday consumer, no matter who, how to do things properly in the thought process behind it. I love how it is truly a handbook that is fabulous, a waste free kitchen handbook that I love what I saw in there. Before we kind of move out of this where we've gotten gotten started out in with how we weather the pandemic, I want to touch upon, so in New York state they just settled a big potential suit that was dropped from an egg company that before the pandemic started was selling eggs for 59 cents, a dozen I think it was somewhere around there which is cheap in and of itself but then had went flew up to 289 I believe it was during the pandemic and there was a case brought against them and so now that company the the suit was dropped in that they paid damages back to New York state and wherever they sold those eggs to donate to the food banks, the food pantries and it was something like 1.9 million almost eggs that they're donating in order to drop that suit because they did do some form of price gouging and raising of the price but as you mentioned in the beginning is there was a pandemic and economic crisis or still is yet food maintaining not only the stability but actually continue to grow a lot of food companies food startups were receiving new investments and people were doubling down. We saw this in 2008 where pretty much anything to do with from financial and tech markets were all switched to our food systems turning our food systems kind of into commodity and as a safe bet that would continue to grow because it's a basic need and now during this time of the pandemic we're also kind of really seeing that not only is it our most vital basic physiological needs that we need you know food and water how we eat but that if it's done right and if it's up to up to speed the production and and how we do our food that it can be a better thing for human health in our environment and some organizations that were essential services had that social distancing others like beef and meat industries chicken industries really had some huge problems not only in the US but also in Germany and so there were some really wicked problems during this time of all this and that's why you know made the comment some things bubbling to the surface some problems in in the system and one big problem obviously that's tied to the big facet of the food system is this food waste and how we produce overall I always say it's not the it's not the brands of the future or the foods of the future it's really how we produce that will reduce human suffering the most and solve our environmental problems it's really how we do it that do we have the technologies in place to to be efficient and not waste food not only at the farm and the production manufacturing but serve to the consumer's fridge and and I asked what I liked how you know some some ways how you buy how you shop how you use your fridge properly how you use your freezer properly and so I don't know if you have anything more to say about that but I'd love to hear your your comments yeah well you know my work is really focused on the US but this is certainly not just a US problem it's very much a global problem and whether you're looking globally or within the US about a third of all our food goes to waste and by goes to waste I mean goes unsold or uneaten some of that you know in the US about three percent of it gets donated and other portion goes to animal feed or to composting but the vast majority is still going to to landfills or incineration or down the drain um and it has huge implications for our resource use right um it it takes up about first um it takes up about 20 percent or so of our land um almost that much of our water use and not to mention all the fertilizer and pesticide that goes into producing food um as well as the the fact that if you add insult to injury it's actually the number one food going into our landfills today in the US and I'm sorry not the number one food the number one product of everything going to our landfills there is more food than construction debris or anything else um so you know and it just doesn't make sense and particularly at a time when there is so much food insecurity you know I think what you're getting it is we produce enough food today to feed every single person in this planet well there is no reason um from a food production point of view that anyone should be going hungry you know the the and the fact that 800 plus million people on this planet do not have enough food is not a production problem it is a problem of you know distribution and poverty and the way our society is organizing itself but it is not a problem of the food itself um when we look forward to uh to 2050 you know the UN has predicted we will need somewhere around 50 to 60 percent more food then than we have now why partially because in certain countries diets are starting to lean more towards animal products which are resource intensive and because we just will have more people right a growing population and so between those two factors they predict we'll need that much more food where is that going to come from right um are we going to cut down more rainforests and native grasslands to grow it or are we going to use the food that we're already producing right and so you know I mean I think that is where the issue of wasting food is just sort of that's the biggest picture point is like are we going to use the food we already grow or are we gonna you know pretend like we need more and actually do further damage to our resources and use up more of them to grow you know an extra if we don't we don't get more efficient if we don't start to streamline our food system we are producing 30 percent more food than we need to be and that is just like silly really beyond anything else it really is and that you know that when I was younger it was 20 percent and it's you know it's gone up to 30 globally and now with 2020 and the pandemic it's gone up to 40 globally is the new number and actually the FAO came out in 2015 and said that we have 70 harvest left and that was in 2015 and now the number is we have 45 harvest left in 2021 and that's you know that doesn't mean this is how many harvest we have a year that's how many harvest we have period and there's just some staggering numbers and you also not only even at 30 percent that food wasted at 30 percent just a quarter of that is enough to feed everybody in the world but there's problems of logistics and distribution and and poverty issues how do you get it to them how you know what one place where there's food waste is not someplace else where where they actually need food and different things so it's a very wicked complex problem that leads really into refed even though you're national non-profit for the United States what refeed does is to it's working to end food loss and waste across the United States in the food system and they estimate you know also how many billions it's 14 billion dollars over the next 10 years that can reduce food waste by 45 million tons each year and that investment would result in 73 billion annual net financial benefit wow so now all the financial wizards all the companies and organizations should be seeing their eyes should be lighting up and and and because money talks and well I say I'm kind of a crass American bullshit walks money talks and bullshit walks and so if you're waiting for the numbers there is a better model out there there is a better way to do things instead of this cradle to grave this wasteful model and plus not only is that 73 billion an annual net financial benefit which is a five to one return but the plus every year it would reduce greenhouse gas emissions which is an environmental positive impact by 75 million metric tons my god that's saving four trillion gallons of water and recover the equivalent of four billion meals for those in need so I love how you have these datas this numbers that you you put it into that and really that's why I asked you on the show is I wanted to get more into refeds mission kind of what you do you guys do some fabulous stuff so not only do you guys have an on your website some fabulous tools and reports there that people can download and get but you have the insight engine you have the roadmap to 2030 you have you know things for policy movements what what can we do to nudge and push the policy in the united states in the right direction to reduce that and then there's also um un environmental program un e p comes out with with uh every year or every couple years with a new a lot around food but around food waste specifically as well the new data the new numbers and things um and so you guys are kind of staying on that and now we have not only an advocate but also plethora of great tools from the policymaker to the to the large organization to the small medium enterprise clear to your home kitchen with all sorts of tools to use and so I would I would love for you to tell us about some of your projects some of the things you're passionate about what we should know um that was not a discussion we used to have when the orange guy was in office but now that the biden and harris have doubled down and and are really doing a lot of things towards environment and food and agriculture and in different areas of concern um it's the right time to talk about it it's the right time to say hey I didn't know this before and um plumpa wasn't talking about it but now we're back in the game yes all true all true um well let me start with the insights engine itself and just tell you a little bit more about that because we are we you know that we did two things during the pandemic one was we started a um you know big for us but not huge fund to help a lot of the smaller organizations distribute food and kind of pivot during that but secondly we spent the entire year doing analysis to launch this insights engine and I would love for anyone listening to go check it out we took about 50 different data sets we combined it with industry papers case studies um expert interviews kind of anything we could get our hands on frankly because data on this issue is really tricky it's really hard um and so we did all that and we combined it into our own methodology and we analyzed 42 different solutions to food waste um and we basically analyzed them for how much food they can save and how much it costs or saves in dollars actually how much it cost and saves right because because there's a cost to most of these things typically as you just pointed out there's an even better return and so we for each solution kind of analyze that at the systems level and um mapped it all out and in a really fun tool that you can go and interact with and you can say you know I'm a retailer or I'm in government show me the solutions for me so it is a U.S. scaled analysis but I think there's a lot to learn far beyond the U.S. because just in terms of looking at what are those solutions how well do they work um so it's everything from you know some of the new technologies that are coming out one that really rises to the top in our analysis we call enhanced demand planning that's kind of taking artificial intelligence and applying it to that tricky equation I was talking about before for grocery stores of how much of each of our 50 000 products do we need in each store you know that's a really good use of big data um to look at the patterns of sales and what do consumers do when there's a different promotion and different part of the store and all of that and how much product do we need at each store so you know that's one that saves saves business's money to implement um and saves a lot of waste so there's a bunch of technology things like that apps you know one that's really hot in europe right now is called too good to go and it's a last minute sales app for people to get um when restaurants have a little bit extra at the end of the night they can sell food on that app at a discount um and that saves a lot of waste because that food is going straight to the garbage typically you know 10 minutes later right so um we have solutions like that we also have solutions like you know one that's a one of our top ones is reducing portion sizes um a huge amount of the food that's going to waste in restaurants in the U.S. is happening in the front of the house after it served to customers and so um how do we basically have people not waste so much on their plates when we go back to restaurants right um and you know just how do we give more flexibility to portion sizes so that if you're starving and you want the mega like go for the mega but if you're not that hungry or you're a light eater there's another option for you so you don't have to buy that much um so anyways a whole variety of different solutions and you can you can look at them through how much money they are going to cost and save you can look at them through the climate the greenhouse gas footprint you know which ones are rising to the top in terms of greenhouse gases because depending on where the solution happens in the supply chain um depending on whether you're preventing food from going to waste or you're maybe feeding it to animals or composting it those have different greenhouse gas implications and we actually commissioned a new set of greenhouse gas factors for this analysis to give more resolution to it so that we can say you know one of the things we found is overall um the food surplus food in the U.S wherever it's going whether it's being donated or or somewhere else the footprint of that is about four percent of the entire greenhouse gas inventory that of the U.S so that's about 58 million cars worth um and and also the the footprint of a tomato on the farm is only one sixth of that tomato once it gets to the home so as the tomato is traveling and being picked and cooled and transported and stored and cooked it's gaining footprint and that's about six times more um and so it's actually really important for us to pay attention to that later part of the supply chain from a climate perspective because that's where the biggest impacts are happening um if you care about hunger however we found that look farms have a huge amount of surplus happening on the farm there's a ton of edible food just being not harvested right and so if you if what you care about is getting more nutritious food to people let's look there you know and I think we did see some solutions for the U.S pop up during the pandemic where the government started paying farmers who had extra food to put it in the boxes and get it to people in need that seems like a good idea to maybe continue throughout right like why stop that it's a it's a way to get that healthy food to people um so you know I think a lot of opportunity there um and it really depends who you are and where you sit in the supply chain and where what you care about in terms of what the best solution is for you so we tried to really enable that interactivity and and to get to the the right solutions for you um but from a you brought up policy so I want to address that as well and absolutely like it is an incredibly um fertile time for policy here I would say it's exciting to have somebody in you know I will acknowledge that um even under the Trump administration the federal agencies were actually able to maintain some of their efforts around this and but what we're seeing now is a huge increase in interest from a policy perspective because reducing food loss and waste has been ranked the number one solution to climate change by by project drawdown in their analysis of 76 right and so it's you know it's being seen as a climate solution really for the first time and I think that is you know bringing interest beyond just the food system to the issue and and so from a policy perspective I mean we're looking at ways right now they're they're rolling out an infrastructure bill that's the big topic of conversation and will be probably over the next couple months well what kind of infrastructure can help for this issue you know we in the US don't have the same level of anaerobic digestion infrastructure as you have in Europe and so you know can we look at even though it's not sort of the highest and best use of food we will always have food scraps so let's look at composting infrastructure let's look at anaerobic digestion infrastructure as a solution and a way to recycle nutrients and get you know enrich our soils as well as just not throw food into a landfill where it produces methane and you know just just things like that also can we have more infrastructure for food donations and you know we saw for instance the the whole food donation system has been built up around non perishables and so now there's you know when when when we want healthier foods to go to those people you know what are the the infrastructure needs that we have for that and by the way it doesn't all have to be just building brand new stuff right as there a way we can take like the sharing economy concept and use some of the refrigerators and coolers that maybe are emptied during the weekend in schools to store food that could be distributed or you know like let's get creative there's cold storage is expensive and it has its own greenhouse gas footprint so you know that's an infrastructure need so I think you know thinking about right now we're really trying to think about how do we fit some of the policy priorities into the the bigger conversations that are happening in the policy world I love that so the inside engine I exactly that's what I thought your 42 solutions in the way is very similar to drawdown Paul Hawkins drawdown so you're specifically in the food area and I love that because over the years if I was at the UN or the world economic format I talk with other environmentalists or activists or people interested around food I'd say okay what are the top five solutions what are the top 10 solutions what can we do now and what's going to have the biggest bang for the buck the biggest impact on to really get us to where we need to be in the future for be more sustainable and protect our environment and that's what I saw at your inside engine so I really I love that that you guys are doing that in the way providing people organizations with the tools and understanding of what's going to have the biggest impact we all eat three times a day so that means obvious no brainer that that's going to be the biggest influence we have for many many years we were led to believe the oil coal and gas automotive industry where the big creators of human suffering and greenhouse gas emissions are environmental problems and it's actually not true they're on the list don't get me wrong but they're much lower on the list than food food is something that touches every human being usually hopefully three times a day and really is the biggest opportunity we have to fix the system or to have an impact so that we don't continue the the downwards file that way actually fix the problem so I absolutely like that quite a bit that you have that as a tool the policy aspect is kind of an added caveat that you're offering the nudging the help to seeing things and policies for the US anyway how to get them there and and to to address that you're you're helping in different previous campaigns that you have but you're also working on some new projects as well through refeed is that correct my understanding that you want to maybe tell us about sure yeah happy to um and just one more word on policy before I go there is you know I think I sort of focused on infrastructure because that's what's current right now but um there are so many more ideas there you know I mean one one thing we found in our greenhouse gas analysis was that preventing food is about eight times um better at reducing emissions than composting it and so what are we doing about that and so you know we're trying to promote um a system where for instance there are incentives for companies to adopt more of these technologies that are that are demonstrating they do prevent food waste from happening you know in our in our analysis you mentioned we're if everyone were to implement all 42 of our solutions 100% then we could achieve those numbers you mentioned then we could achieve you know the equivalent of 16 million cars being taken off the road from a greenhouse gas perspective um but it would take 14 billion dollars of an investment about half of that would need to come from from food companies themselves um and because some of these changes just need to happen there right and so um can we incentivize that somehow with our policy and and you know can we put a carrot there because there there are um a lot of these solutions tend to be financially positive sometimes with even bigger returns than five to one um but it can take a little bit of a you know it's a hurdle to get over to to put that money aside um invest the capital up front and all of that to make them happen so I think we really need to look at what does it mean to incentivize prevention as a policy and not just donation and sort of some of these more recycling based solutions um just can I say something there so I had two people on the podcast before so Robert Eggers from the DC central kitchen LA central kitchen also a friend of Diane hats um he wrote the book begging for change kind of a different model for central kitchens to use um which is a much more effective model uh where um there is no profit without nonprofits type of a thinking and then I did another book uh with katie s doctor katie s martin she did reinventing food banks and pantries um and it's a much different model than we've ever seen before which all kind of ties into food waste and some of the things that you've been discussing and so that's why I wanted to bring them up at that moment when you just mentioned that that um they're offering more supportive services empowering services to get people out of the charity or the handing over of foods to give them more of this empowerment and transition into a better system which is also what the inside engine and other tools that you guys provide we we we want we want to teach people how to fish and how to cook their own food and produce and do their things differently instead of just handing something so okay go away okay here you go that system will never fix the problem and so uh that her model is very complex and so I won't go into too much but it's also uh turning um food banks into more like a grocery store experience where those people have experience to pick their foods to to cook it to create their own recipes instead of just being handed food but also receive services how do they get a license how do they get a job how do they get the utensils and things to cook the food or to do something with it to really feel worth and empowerment and things and so I think that's really fitting because it complements and it fits into the big system of what you guys are doing and in the direction that I see all over the world so I'm I'm a big global food reformist I write about food I speak about it at the UN at the world economic format and I I know it is the biggest way to stop and solve human suffering and to fix our environmental problems that's the best way to to have the biggest impact in the sweet spot of the drawdown so to say going back to to Paul Hawkins book drawdown but he has many fabulous books and ideas for a long time so I would suggest those as well I I like those I didn't mean to interrupt you but I think it's just fitting along the the line of how you know we have some older systems in the United States but also around the world on on how we see food and how we see food waste and things one last aspect maybe you could address this if you haven't lost your train of thought as well and that is we don't talk a lot about natural capital true cost in that process and there's a lot of extreme waste or things that aren't accounted for especially since 2008 where the entire and anything to do with the food systems went kind of towards this commodity direction where actually it's the only thing cheaper than you can produce them or even chip them or even package them and that imbalance just cannot go on forever well yeah I mean and that is you know food is very cheap especially in the US in fact the US we spend less of our budget on food than anywhere else in the world I think it's about 10% and and that makes it really easy to waste the food right like if you look at places where especially at the consumer level but all throughout the supply chain frankly because because businesses when they're maximizing profits are not necessarily maximizing food that is not the same equation it typically they're paying more in rent or you know they're paying more for the real estate and they're paying more for the labor than they are for the food and so maximizing your profit can be about space it can be about time people are spending and it can be about outsourcing things so that you know the fruit the fruit salad comes in a cup you know that you sell out from made somewhere else right it's not about maximizing the food though because then you know when you have that fruit salad cup sold as a cup and it's made somewhere else you can no longer take the watermelon from your produce department and cut out the brews and make fruit salad with it because you lost that capability now so a lot of that goes back to just the basic cost of food being relatively low and I think it's a dicey problem because if you are to raise the cost of food then you have this whole food insecurity challenge if you're raising it you're raising it for everyone those who can afford it and those who can't and those who are kind of right at the line um to me uh you know you talked about food donation and food banks we've talked a lot about that um when you look at Europe which has a much bigger safety net and a much lower hunger rate in general you talk to people who work on this issue there they go you know what we can't have businesses donating more than two percent of extra because we don't have any mouths to feed with it like there like we just we need to focus on preventing all this surplus in the first place because we just don't have anywhere for that food donation to go um in the US it's much so that's because the systems were based on government you know safety in the US were based on charity we we don't as a government feel the need to take on feeding our people as a responsibility we say no we'll just let charity do that right and that's why the whole food banking system exists um and so you know I people sometimes ask look if we're too good at preventing food waste are we going to reduce donations so much that it's going to hurt people and I step back and go look if I were going to design this system from scratch I would not design it so that we feed people with like the dribs and drabs and extras from across the food system and try to get it you know and then have this huge logistical challenge of getting it to them while it's still fresh or somewhat fresh right um rather I would say let's like design that in from the start and feed them and be so efficient we don't have enough food to catch at the ends and and get to them and you know the system we have in the US for that is called SNAP it's called food stamps it's giving people money to go buy food essentially right and I think we need to to look at that as more of our solution rather than um the you know the whole food banking system you know the food banking system is an emergency it's supposed to be an emergency solution not necessarily the fundamental design so um that is I guess are some of my thoughts there um and and so to go back to a question you asked a while back on kind of where are we going as refed um you know we so our our work really focuses on three areas we focus on providing data and insights to the issue um and we will continue to do that so we will continue to try to improve the information we've put out on our insights engine and and alongside it we also produced a roadmap that's a little more high level and kind of tries to boil down our 42 solutions into seven key areas and so we'll continue to provide you know more data we want to get more solutions on there we want to improve the the features and the tools we want to help um we've already been approached by all sorts of organizations that want to be able to like automatically integrate into our data and that will help get the information out further so we'll work on that as well um you know we've potentially been invited to to take the insights engine to other countries probably will not happen this year but we're certainly contemplating what that would look like um so that's that's sort of one line of work our second is to we really focus on bringing um more capital into the space to fund more innovation and so um we will certainly be working on that over the next few years you know how do you know now that we have this analysis of solutions are there funds you know investment funds that may want to sequester you know some portion of what they're doing you know perhaps it's a climate focused fund and they want to give a portion of that to investments around um food waste reduction you know can we be the expertise we like to think of ourselves as kind of small and mighty we never want to be huge we want to be able to leverage our expertise and get it out to effective places and so you know can we provide expertise to some of those funds to fund some of these innovative companies or scale them um for the solutions that we are seeing working so that both on the private side and on the philanthropic side right there is a huge role for philanthropy here um both in that donation space but also for um just philanthropy can be a great solution for some high risk innovation right to pilot some of these things to prove their working um to give those innovators those early dollars to that they need to really develop their solution so um also advising philanthropy and helping develop those uh those companies and those nonprofits um and then the third thing we do is act as a hub and connector in the space and so we're really um going to be and buffing up our our engagement tools and we're looking at designing a whole set of of um tool well first we host a network and we're hoping to really build that network with more people and more functions and more um networking ability with each other and just really connecting people um which we do quite a bit right now but more on a one to one kind of ad hoc basis and so we're hoping to formalize that um and then also really looking at how do we engage businesses in this you know we have some some real leaders out there we have Kroger who's reduced their food waste by 13 percent over the last two years we have Sodexo who's built in financial incentives to help people are value-weighted in that relate to how much food is going to waste in their operations and so we have some real leaders but uh we also have a long tail of food companies that are not thinking about this at all and even some who are thinking about it but don't necessarily know what to do and so we plan to really build out some of our um engagement and tools and capacity to just help those businesses figure out where to start um what to prioritize and and you know really get get into action I love that I think that's so important because those who might not know or have the ability to to R&D or think about the innovations or the tools that are available to them to reduce food waste or they think they might be efficient as they possibly can be but there's something more out there that's missing and you guys really kind of help with those and I see it and everything that I've done so far and I mean to go back to to uh research with you guys and I want to go back to the the inside engine the top one is portion control you know most people totally overlook that on the home end of of that as well as on the production end so the bigger the portions the more we can be like this Costco it's less packaging and things like that that we think might be good for the end consumer but it's not going to that's not meant for the end consumer there's no end consumer it can take big portions but then as well then the consumers that you know how do they waste food by over portioning and there's kind of something to happen before the supersize me McDonald's movie and documentary that got us on this over larger portions bigger sizes than are actually needed and creating a lot of human suffering in asthma diabetes health problems heart issues on and on because of what we eat how we eat the sugaries and also the portions in it and what the bad contents and some of those products are and so I like that that's a tool and that you're offering other tools is there any way that you can go a little bit deeper into this road map to 2030 and maybe talk about some of the seven action areas and and uh what you think is uh is that or is that something that you would just recommend people go to your website and look at no I'm happy to I'm happy to talk about those you know I think and it's I think describing how we got to them is kind of interesting as well so we started this project we had about 80 solutions that we wanted to model and modeling is challenging you can't always get the information and so we wound up with about 40 that we were able to model and about 40 that we weren't but we looked at them and we said you know if you're just if you don't have a lot of time for this if you're just getting to know it diving right in a portion sizes or something can be you know a little bit too detailed but and and really when you look at it everything kind of boils down to some key themes and so that's what our seven action areas are just those key you know if you want to waste less food what does that actually mean and especially on the prevention side because the the framework that's been out there for a while has often been okay we prevent you know it's first prevents then rescue it or donate it and then recycle if you can't do either of those then recycle it but what happens in practice is people skip over that prevention and they go straight to donation or composting because they they don't know what to do on the prevention to prevent it takes kind of a more upstream thinking and so um we we really try to articulate better like what are those what is it that needs to happen and it really you know in the prevention side there's so five of our seven action areas are about prevention and it really boils down to one is optimize the harvest and what we mean by that is first let's not grow too much let's right size production to what's needed and then let's get it all off the field you know right now we are growing too much food and then oftentimes it doesn't make sense economically to get it off the field but that's because we're growing too much right and so economically it makes sense to leave stuff behind well let's you know let's change that paradigm let's grow the right amount let's value everything that we're growing and let's get it all off the field so that's number one number two let's not lose a lot of it as it's traveling around right and it's traveling it's being stored you know how do we do that in a smarter way and we have sensors now that can monitor temperature exposure of things we have you know intelligent routing systems that can say okay this palette um has less shelf life left left so let's send it somewhere closer and let's take this other palette and that has more shelf life and send it further you know thinking things through like that so that's number two number three is we call it refining product management um which we had trouble naming this one but we're really talking about is matching as businesses matching supply and demand more um precisely and how do we do that we have some of these you know artificial intelligence tools now new technologies that can help us with those equations a little bit better um we have those apps that help broadcast so how do we first try to match supply and demand perfectly and then when we get that equation wrong how do we do we have backups let's have some backup channels that we can sell things to or donate so that we can you know match that that that is part of the equation and that's that flexibility that I mentioned before you can have your plan a try to get plan a as precise as possible but you need a plan b um when that doesn't happen okay so that's number three number four is once you have the product let's use all of it right let's not like cut off the peels and throw those all away and so in manufacturing this is this is coming to be known upcycling right finding uses for a lot of the byproducts to actually turn those into food products for people as well um in restaurants people call this nose-to-tail cooking right some of the stranger parts of the animal are root to stock you know using the the tops of carrots as well as the carrots themselves and so really looking at the food products we have and how do we use all of that product and then fifth is reshaping consumer environments um and that is you know I don't think we've mentioned the point yet that at least in the US people in their homes are actually the largest source of food going to waste more than restaurants more than farms more than grocery stores and we really need to help people stop doing that right and and what and it's if there is you know a direct there is a need for direct communication with consumers to say hey don't waste so much let's be mindful you know I wrote a whole book about it so I clearly believe in it a little bit but um but also we're all we're very influenced by the environments that we're operating in and so what can food companies and appliance companies and kitchen design companies you know what can we all do to change the environments that consumers are operating in in a way that nudges them towards wasting less whether they realize that or not and so that's the fifth one sixth is once we have all that extra food let's let's make sure we do donate it and try to get it to people as opposed to not and then when that fails or we have parts that can't be donated let's make sure we recycle it through animal feed composting anaerobic digestion or other uses so those are our seven you know to just boil it down which I know is still kind of complicated thank you so much no I mean that's important that's that's what we want to talk about it's um it's awareness of people maybe it's more than some people want to know or need to know but uh there are many people who are really looking for the tools the environment the knowledge what what can I do they feel helpless and and uh obviously one of the big things is also okay go vegan you know and and and be vegan and you know that there is no one there is no silver bullet and it's not about the food tribes or the brands of the future like it says really how we produce and how we look at the whole system and how we use it properly and how we kind of get a little bit creative and it's only it's I mean you don't have to get that's another thing that you mentioned in your book that's so so nice it's not always about you know spending the beginning of the week to get these creative new recipes it's okay to stick with a couple routine recipes and and items in in your toolbox and just that you know you can always have and it's okay to repeat them once in a while you don't have to be some Michelin star chef and do something new every week um although that that is nice a little bit of diversity is also good for different seasonal crops and things but just to get into different having different tools available and understanding how the whole complex system works and so I see that you guys are providing that in your past book providing that a lot for the consumers in the end the end mile of food and how to make sure to be good stewards over that and to to get every last big bang out of it so to say my grandparents my mother um they grew up in the wartime so there was a lot of crisis foods wartime food things they didn't let a thing go I mean they had moldy hard bread that they turn into you know milk water you know they they do amazing things puddings and stuff out of them that you couldn't believe and besides dehydrating and preserving and and freezing and and using a a seller to store you know not just carrots and potatoes but all sorts of things and onions and and things that are coming back and you mentioned that as well there's a lot of products being left on the farm and so I come from Germany six generations of Germany's largest organic farmers and and I know this is the case in the US as well there was a huge practice of gleaning in farms for a long time we kind of got away from that with industrial agriculture but we really need to go back with that but also think about portions when we harvest or when we when we plant crops that we are going to use everything that we plant that no matter how ugly or small or if it's too much that somehow gets into a place to either be manufactured processed or sent to somewhere for use and if it's going to be towards the end of that period where you said okay this could go spoilage or could be bad well then that's time to make a shake or a soup or freeze it or to do other things that will really guarantee the extension of that product or to get it into someone's hands in those respects so I think a lot about a lot of the things that you're speaking out of the tools that you offer I've been thinking about for a long time and so it's just a sheer joy to hear them coming about in the US and there's other organizations who have but I really like how you guys are doing it and and the tools you provide I really thank you for that um I have three more questions for you and then we're done and then we we talk about what anything else that you may have forgotten or that you would like to mention this first one is actually the hardest question that I'm going to give you today and it's the burning question it's a WTF the burning question that we've probably been asking ourselves during these crazy times but it's not the swear word although we have been asking that it's what's the futures and so I add the s on there because our futures are different for different cultures and different scenarios but what's the future you know I'm super often on this particular topic I am super optimistic about the future um I think you know some of the trends we saw during the pandemic really kind of accelerated um things we want people to do in in order to improve this so we saw a huge increase in online purchasing right and and depending on how that is done I think there are a lot of ways where we're shifting you know whether we like it or not that is the way food sales are going right and and there are opportunities there to really improve how people are purchasing their food like one of the most important things you and you I anyone can do to reduce food waste is be careful when you're shopping because when you're shopping is when you commit to food and then what you do with that after you know if the bread gets moldy then awesome make some bread pudding but like let's try not to get to that point at least for starters right so um because that online shopping model offers like a much more interactive potential and and I think I think we're very much in the 1.0 of online food shopping there's so much more we could be doing with that experience including helping people plan their meals and going hey you're buying you know cilantro are you using that all for this thing or have you thought about these other three things you could make with it um so and did you know this is how you store that food and oh wow typically you buy this much you're buying a lot more this week are you going to be home or are you have more people or did you not realize that right so I think there's all sorts of feedback we can give people to help them in that world that will be helpful um there is a whole world of like new kitchen devices which cool I'm not quite sure yet if they're going to make a big difference on the waste front I do feel like there's a need for better inventory management in our kitchens and you know it's possible that some of these tools could help although I haven't seen any yet that really do it well um and then you know I think the those small and burgeoning and it hasn't you know become a huge volume of our food system I do think the local and regional food system concept of um of buying food closer to you is you know we saw the resilience of that during the pandemic and I think some people are going to stick with that and I my hope is that continues to grow you know from a waste perspective we're not totally clear on exactly the implications of that but um the food has shorter to go they tend to be more flexible of a system and um there's more direct relationships and I think you know we haven't talked about where relationships fit into the food system but they're actually pretty important and you know the more connected people feel to the people who are growing and and making their food the the more they value it and the less likely they are to waste it so um you know I think there's some some good opportunity to do there as well love that um actually I lied I have four maybe even five questions for you I totally forgot um I wanted to ask you a question about you know since I've been alive I think there's been about five innovations in the food industry that you could really name and I would say only two of them are worth mentioning and um I would like to see what you think on those innovations if they're possible because you kind of said you know there are some new tools for the kitchen and and and that but the same thing is if they're getting to the stage where they're coming into our kitchens there are also some tools like that in large scale production facilities that they've used or applied some somewhere other than that's where that that home kitchen appliance that might help with flash freezing or dehydrating or some other tools of of longer preserving or doing doing better preps for preserving whatever it is in your kitchen um and when you think about it that industry or that economy is 12 000 years old and we've had five innovations that's kind of sad that means we're still stuck in the industrial revolution we're still stuck in the dark ages sometimes it's uh we really need to get some more efficiencies and some tools in there how do you see or feel about the tools specifically I mean do you think the microwave has been a big help for human suffering or food waste or has it actually had a more negative impact that people use that extra time that a microwave supposed to give you to eat more food or spend more time in front of the tv that's a fascinating question controversial huh yeah yeah I don't know I guess I've never just like tried to pull that one technology out it really does have massive implications for the way we we cook and operate our whole food kitchen food system right like our um you know one one bonus just thinking it throughout loud here um is the ability to defrost relatively quickly because the ability to freeze things you know I always think of our freezer is like this magic pause button we can push on our food but if we you know that the challenge comes in when you want to make chicken for dinner and it's frozen right and so that I think the ability to defrost there is um helpful in encouraging people to use their freezers more which from a waste perspective does help um it has also however probably led to a lower to a reduction in cooking skills overall and generally speaking it helps to have better cooking skills to be able to use up kind of you know to make that last minute meal that uses up all the things in your fridge or to you know make the bread pudding out of the stale bread or you know to sort of figure out all of that use it up stuff um it does help to have cooking skills and I'm not sure what the microwave is done for that so I don't know how that nets out but uh interesting question it's okay you don't you don't have to know but I mean in that it kind of touches on because in your book uh you do you teach us how to use the fridge how to use the freezer how to use some of these tools some other suggestions and I don't mean not even in a nice form of teaching or learning a kind of example examples and recipes but also how we look at it and how you section off your fridge and I think the same thing should maybe have happened with microwaves because what happened is and I remember my family was one of the first to get a microwave and it was a big big deal and um it actually uh in the industry for I come from the industry side uh industry created more products specific for the microwave that were uh almost verging fast food very unhealthy tv dinners and things a lot of preservatives a lot of flavor sugars aromas all sorts of things that probably aren't the best for our health but even that aside because it was really supposed to to reheat up leftovers to to use those for us to reduce food waste to help with defrosting stuff so if you're frozen something to preserve it longer to reduce that food waste now you can defrost it and and or re warm it up and and eat it or defrost chicken and fish and things that whenever you freeze those things just extend the life and I actually very uh have a have a better sustainability quality or rating whether it's the stoplight system or not than than other products so it's really nice to see that but instead the it's almost like um in some respects and I'm dating myself now the tivo where you could skip through commercials and record movies right but that extra time that we gain through doing things faster in the microwave you say okay well now you're going to go out obviously you're going to spend more time outside exercising doing sport and enjoying nature but instead it's more time you say I'm already done I'm full I've already ate and there's hardly any cleanup but I'm still hungry because that process is a lot shorter and then you go right back in front of the tv or whatever and I'm not saying everybody it's pretty general but there's a whole ripple effect of things we've seen more health problems emerge at the same time the microwave came out and over the years but there are a lot of people who know how to use a microwave and do it in a very wonderful way I mean I used to use them all the time to cook spaghetti squash I think it's a just as nice as doing it in the oven for example I don't want to get too much off on a tangent but I think that those innovations and there are some tools but there's always this awareness and education or learning curve that we should have to understand how to use them in the right way because there's almost two sides to a coin on you know the original practice is the farming with cleaning and things that were there that aren't being done as much with industrial ag or seem to to labor us and when my grandparents were around they weren't ever having discussions of ugly roots and vegetables or not buying things because of the way they looked or their size they were taking what they could get and making the best out of it and the mills were fabulous and and and now we've created that but you talk about all those things in your book and I would recommend anybody who wants those tips and to see that in a different way please get Dana's book the the next one is that I really forgot to discuss with you because there's so much we could talk about are you guys involved at all with the United Nations Food Systems Summit that came out last year and we taking place this year and in several areas they're going to have the UN Food Systems Summit in in June in Rome as a pre-event and then in September in New York City they'll have a hybrid kind of a summit on and offline where there really is it's a it's another historical precedence besides the sustainable development goals and that's kind of a side question I have for you as well that food has had a seat at the table in a major way at the United Nations and I think it's something that we should really listen to and and get involved I know in your reports I know in your roadmap to 2030 2030 is when we need to achieve the sustainable development goals so I want to know what roles do you have and how are you involving the SDGs and kind of how are you playing along with that system if you could tell us anything there yeah um you know I think in my observation food has and food waste has become like one of the pillars of a sustainable food conversation and that's been one of the evolutions over the last decade it wasn't it wasn't there 10 years ago and it is now so I think that's promising but oftentimes what is missing is the how and you know it refed we are really trying to focus on how great everyone's interested in doing this now what do we need to do how much is it going to cost who needs to pay that you know we have a whole analysis of which where should that financing come from how much of is government's how much is philanthropic and and then what of the you know okay one billion is philanthropic what should that pay for and so you know we are really trying to add some kind of implementation focus to this discussion um to be perfectly honest we have not been as involved in the UN food summit discussions as I would like us to be um because I think there's a lot you know yes our analysis is us based but you know our seven-point framework is very applicable worldwide and I think you know we could do it would really help to go through each of those points and go okay what are the policy you know for every country you could go through that what are you know and for the UN itself you know what are we doing to optimize the harvest what are we doing around distribution what are we doing around matching that supply-demand equation right how are we encouraging all parts of products to get used just all of it so I think um I think there's opportunity to get more involved for sure um and we're hoping to to potentially you know do that before September and maybe be part of that New York event great I'd love to help you as well so I'm definitely involved in it and I've been involved in a lot of food things from the UN so anyway I can help as well because I believe that it's something that there's not only the the action tracks but then there's the food champions and the food heroes and then there's the CEO levels and then there's small medium organizations that are in there but truly it's everyone's opportunity to have a seat at the table a voice at the table to interact to express their concerns and to make sure that we're not only understanding the complexity of all the food systems but we're making sure to address all those vital pillars that that need to be addressed as we go through this first iteration um just last week 1200 new innovations in food were presented to the UN food system summit and they just released those there's some amazing things coming online and some discussions occurring and you guys definitely need to have a seat at the table and I'd love to to help you or see you be part of that and and the UN would definitely not say no they're looking for people who who are thinking about this who are doing the reports and have been around for a long time in this um the last three questions I have for you is really for selfish for my listeners if there was one message you could depart to my listeners as a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change their life what would it be your message um my message would be this is one of the things we can control right um there's a lot that feels out of our control I think how we you know choose to manage our food and feed ourselves is very much within our control and fundamentally not waste not wasting it is a mindset more than anything else there's I think of you all the tips and tricks in the world but what you just described about your grandparents that is a mindset and when you take on that mindset you figure it out all you figure out all the tips and tricks and what works in your own life I think what is most important is kind of seeing food for like the full value that it is and having that mindset but like we're just not going to waste this we're not going to get takeout when our fridge is full we're not going to you know just throw that thing out because there's a little bit of mold on the end we're just going to cut it off and use it so I you know I would say think about your mindset and see this as an opportunity to really um control something and make change what should young innovators in your field be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make a real impact um if you are a young innovator looking for impact please go check out our insights engine because you will see there are big wedges there are small wedges um one particular nut I feel is not cracked is you know the plate waste in food service you know how if somebody comes up with some new innovations around how to have people not waste food in the front of restaurants that would have a huge impact as well as how to help people in their homes manage their inventory better what have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start oh my goodness that's a much harder one um so many things you know I think honestly probably more than anything it's sticking with my gut there have been several times where I've just seen something and felt like wow this is such a big issue but if it were such a big issue why is nobody talking about it and um I think that's intimidating but when you can stick with your gut when you see something you're probably right you know and go investigate it and just because no one else is seeing that doesn't mean um you're not onto something Dana thank you so much for letting us inside of your ideas and giving us a look into your world and to refeed and refed and also your book I really really appreciate you being here on the show it was a sheer pleasure we could talk for hours but our time's up thank you so much thank you so much for having me mark it's been delightful to go in get in get in deep here and go into the conversation with you is there anything that you didn't get to express or let us know that were absolutely vital for us to know I just like to say you know no matter how organically or sustainably we produce our food if we don't actually eat it it's a terrible use of resources so just keep that in mind yeah that's one thing we didn't get a touch upon but it is an exponential waste you you mentioned that the top two ways is landfill and incineration uh of how we dispose of our food waste and that number one way by putting it in a landfill really creates methane it turns it into methane which is 84 times more effective at creating heat and trapping heat than co2 it's it's it is a greenhouse gas and and uh is more powerful in the short term short term being at least 10 years which doesn't seem very short term for me but um I I really appreciate those words wisdom and we're gonna we're gonna take and apply those and I hope to speak with you and see you around very very soon thank you very much likewise take care take care