 Connections. I'm Jay Fidel. Here it is on a given Wednesday and we have a special guest. Thank you, Scott Foster, for connecting us with Catherine Blau Knight. Can I say that right, Catherine? It's Bach Knight. Bach Knight, okay. And Catherine is a photographer par excellence. She's hanging in many museums and in many very prestigious places. She has made videos and she has made photography. She's a photojournalist and we have her on the show by remote from California. And guess what? We have a co-host who knows her personally, Marsha Joyner. Some say that Marsha knows everyone in the world. Of course. Why not? I'm a Gemini. You're supposed to know everybody here. Welcome, Gemini. Okay, so we're going to talk about you. Catherine Bach Knight. Sorry I mispronounced that. Catherine, how did you get to be a photographer so dedicated and so widely ranged the way you are? Well, I started out as a painter in oils at Arizona State University and then I was married to my childhood sweetheart in the Air Force. And we went directly from my school to Germany. And all of a sudden, well, a little bit of background is that my father-in-law, La Voie Bach Knight, was a major photographer and had it in mind that I was going to be a photographer as well. Little did I know, he gave me a book when I got on the plane to move to Germany on photography. And I wondered, why didn't he give me this book? I'm not a photographer. So as fate would have it, just about six weeks later I was in Rome and was on a bridge crossing the Seen River and all of a sudden I pulled out the camera that my father-in-law had given me because the photograph was so, I mean the image was so amazing. I just decided, you know, I'm going to try this camera and then I fell in love at that very moment with photography and it's lasted forever. Wow, how interesting. One moment can change your life. We don't have that photograph here in our array that we're going to show people, but I wonder where that is. Do you have it on your website? No, I don't even talk about that very often at all, but I have it in my files but not anywhere that I can put my hands on this for sure. Okay, well maybe we'll do another show and talk about what's in your files and hasn't been released publicly. So I'm just looking at some of the material I have on you. You're at Yale, in the Weineke Library, in the Women's Museum in Washington, D.C., in the Smithsonian Museum, in the International Center of Photography, New York, the University of Arizona, the Center of Creative Photography, in the Getty Museum, and a lot of photographs there, and Harvard University in the author and Elizabeth Schlesinger Library, on the History of Women in America at the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study. You're all over the place, Catherine. You've taken a lot of photographs. You have been dedicated to the profession of photographer and photojournalist. I want to turn for a moment to your incredible experience 30 years ago in Tenement Square, because that's what we're kind of looking back on this week is so much to remember and think about and analyze. And you were there. Can you tell us why you were there in Tenement Square? Well, the kind of extended story is I felt that I needed to document communism as soon as possible, because I believed that communism was coming to an end and I wanted to document what it was about, because that's what I do. I document cultures for personal reasons. I love that. And I believe that's the DNA of who we are and how we understand each other as a real culture. And so I asked my agency in New York City, CEPA Press, actually the director, Jimmy Colton, who later became editor for Newsweek, if he would send me to China on June 3rd of next year, of the following year. And so he put it off and put it off and put it off and then all of a sudden it came back and he said, Joe Gorbachev was going to Beijing and he called me out of the blue and said, do you still want to go to China on June 3rd? And I said, yes, I do. And that was about 10 days before that. And so that's what happened. I was on the plane and I arrived in Beijing on June 3rd in the evening. And a little background information is that, of course, the Tiananmen Square people were protesting there about, I think, seven weeks before this and, you know, having a hunger strike and peacefully celebrating the possibility for democracy. And when I left America, everything was just very peaceful and I didn't know exactly what was going to happen. But I did have an inclination that it was going to be a war type situation, but I had no proof of that, which is the way my photography life has worked is a bit of pre-visualization, intuition and education on what's going on in the world. And so by the time I got there, I went straight to the square and 45 minutes later, they started announcing on the megaphone that they're going to shoot to kill, leave the square. So that's the beginning of that night. How does it feel when you're standing there in Tiananmen Square in 1989 and you hear an announcement that they're going to shoot to kill? I mean, you're there. You're there in the crowd. There were hundreds of thousands of people, even millions in the crowd, and they say that. How do you exactly, how do you avoid being killed exactly? Well, you know, it wasn't that I really thought I could avoid being killed. That wasn't what was going through my mind. What was going through my mind is how am I going to get these shots? And that's just the way, you know, myself and most of my serious friends, that's the way it is. You just, it's yourself, your body, and then there's the alternate self, which is the journalist, and especially the other journalist, because you have to be there. And I've already trained my mind many times to be in the moment. And it's just a matter of, you know, checking into that mindset, and that's what happened. Yeah, you know, the offer of thought on that is that you feel as a journalist, especially a photojournalist, which is so tactile, you know, so connected, even more than words in a funny way, you feel that you're not there on your own account. You're on the account of all the people who ever watch your photograph. You are the agent of the world to follow of all the people who will ever see what you've done. And I think that's an incredible state of mind, and I can see the kind of commitment you'd have to stay around and not be afraid and run away. Marsha, you had something? Well, as a photo, like now, we get to see 30 years ago, no matter what, how many stories are written, it's that moment when you see it that it registers. Well, let's get in the mood on this and play a short video that you made with Denny Glover about what happened in Tiananmen Square. And some of your work is in this video a couple of minutes long. Let's play that now. Everything was peaceful in Tiananmen Square when I arrived in 1989. And 45 minutes later, after I was in Tiananmen Square, suddenly we heard gunfire sporadically sounding in the background. And there was voices on a megaphone that were telling us to move out of the square. And as we would move to the east wing, when they were in the opposite wing, they would follow us. And finally, they started opening fire. In mainland China, the spring of 1989, hundreds of thousands of students occupied Tiananmen Square in Beijing, China. It was the largest pro-democracy demonstration in the country's history. Catherine Bartonite was a photojournalist covering this story. They hoped for democracy and artistic freedom. Instead, they were wounded when the Chinese military opened fire. Instead of dialogue, Chinese government responded with military force. We started hearing sirens coming. And we knew something bad was happening. All of a sudden, we started hearing megaphones. The Chinese soldiers talking to megaphones saying, we're going to shoot to kill, leave the square. All of a sudden, we just started hearing a popping sound. And people were saying, they're shooting. And nobody could believe it. And one of the residents of mine, there is, I think it's a girl. She is a student. We'll shoot here. She's followed down. Very quiet. They started looking at me saying, for the free world, you know. Emotioning for me to take pictures. Catherine's pictures document the brutality, as well as the bravery of those in the square. If we really look into these people's eyes, we can see how important it is to them to be able to accomplish democracy. Well, from that movie, you know, you can feel the fear of it. You can feel the threat of it. You can feel the historical moment of it for sure. And Catherine, you say, this movie includes you in many ways. You're there speaking, and you're there taking photographs. You had a real presence in the whole study by Daddy Glover. And your photographs are there. Yes. And you were saying about this riot, this protest and suppression, was the day before the photograph with the man stopping, the student stopping the tank, right? Can you describe what happened? Well, as far as I know, it's the next day, because when I got in the square on June 3rd, the massacre had not started yet. It started 45 minutes after I got there. And so I was there doing the unfolding of it, and then it became dark, very dark. And so I don't believe there's any way that that photograph could be taken on June 3rd. It was taken probably on June 4th. Yes. But June 3rd, the night of June 3rd, when it all started, I can say from experience that that's when most of the gunshots were shot at the people. People died. And then the next, it went on all through the night. And then that includes the early morning of June 3rd. I mean, I'm sorry, June 4th. And by June 4th, about 7 o'clock in the morning, I came back to the square, and they were hosing down the square. And what I was told is that the soldiers, the government, whoever had burned the bodies and were hosing down the area where they had burned the bodies. This is serious, serious repression. But I totally really spoke earlier, Catherine. I heard a cinephile, a cinephile expert talk about this yesterday on the news hour at PBS. And he was saying that this was a really tremendous threat to the Chinese government, to stability in China. And they may not have seen it at first, but they concluded after a while that if they didn't suppress this crowd, there would be a much wider, broader revolution. And that's why they decided to do this. But this was a serious suppression. And it shows you that suppression is in the DNA, the governmental DNA, if you will, of China. They killed a lot of people that day, and then they destroyed the evidence. It's very interesting how that works. I don't know how many people were killed that day. This is what I do know, that the Chinese government first said that I heard the number three. People were shot while I was there the next morning. And then I heard, I think it was 300, it became 300 after I got home about a week later. And then the count changed to about over 300. And now the BBC is coming out with proof that it was 10,000 people, approximately 10,000 people. But before that happened also, when I was still in the square the next morning on June 4th, I was told that in the hospital there, that they had counted 3,000 bodies. And then destroyed the evidence. That's just perfect. Now we have some photographs that you did take that day. We have some photographs that you did take that day of people who were wounded. They are very disturbing photographs. But we elected on the side of showing them as showing the reality, showing the history and showing your photojournalism. And we'll put them on the screen now and you can talk about the kind of photographs you took. Here's one with a man on a table. He looks like he's in terrible shape. He's bloodied. He's a mess. And the people around him are obviously shocked. This looks like it happened at night. Can you describe the circumstances? Yes, that was about an hour and a half after I got there in the square and that was on June 3rd. What had happened was I was in a different area at first of the square and people saw that I was a journalist. I was carrying equipment. There was martial law. I wasn't supposed to be there. And so they would look at me and motion for me to take a picture with their hands and they would say, for the free world. And so that's when I really sobered up to the fact that I was the person that had to do this right now. They were asking you to memorialize what happened, to report back. That's quite an obligation. I can see how that would affect you as a journalist. I was concerned that they did not confiscate your camera. Yeah, that's another story. If the government knew, if the army knew that you were doing that and you intended to bring your photographs back, they certainly would have confiscated your camera and maybe you. Well, that's a whole other story. But if you don't mind, I'll finish telling you actually how I got that picture because it's pretty phenomenal if that's okay. Is that okay? Sure. Okay. So in that area, when they were telling me that, they put their hands on my back and gently pressed down on my back for me to go through this tunnel of people. They made a tunnel for me with their hands and arms. And each person, as I went by, put their hands on my back to direct me which way to go. And I ended up right where that person was. And the girl, that is also another shot that I've been wounded. But they wanted me to be there. And it was right, it was nearby Mouse Portrait. And it was just an alibot experience to end up there at Mouse Portrait after I'd seen it on CNN 24 hours before. So I knew sort of where I was at that moment just because of being connected with the news at that time. And then it happened. Right there while I was there, it was a projection of a phenomenal experience. And so the people knew that it was getting ready to happen there. I'm assuming to get me there seconds after it happened. And I believe that was the beginning of what was going on in Chairman Square when the soldiers started actually shooting people on purpose. Well, it's a statement of solidarity, isn't it? Those students, those protesters were protecting you, but they were also exposing you to what they wanted the world to see. That must have been a tremendous experience for you as a photo journalist. And I also imagine we've seen two particularly gross photos of people wounded or dying in that day. But you must have taken a lot of others. We don't have them now with us. But can you tell us what kind of collection you have? Well, most of the collection of the rest of them are incidents that were going on with the people and them actually speaking out to me as the messenger. And, you know, there were some, some things that I don't even want to say, actually. But mostly the most of them are the interaction of the students within the category of Tiananmen Square and how they were responding to it, helping each other. And the next morning, the depression and the solitude of the sadness of what had happened with smoke going up in the background, with some of the trucks that were burned and just complete sadness. When it began, it was more like a festival type atmosphere. And when it ended, it was one of the most gruesome experiences known to modern history. Well, how did it begin? Why were they there to begin with? What caused the... They were looking for democracy. That's been in the paper. This was a protest, a demonstration for democracy. But you said it started out as a festive... It often... I think these... And I was in Turkey with the riots there a few years ago. And it started out as a picnic. It started out as a social experience. But then if the government comes in with smoke and batons and the like and beat people up, then it turns ugly very quickly. And that's what happened in Taksim Square in Istanbul. Anyway, so the other thing I wanted to ask you is, you took pictures... I mean, these pictures of the bloodied people at night, it's not ideal circumstances for taking high-quality photographs. But I'm sure you got high-quality photographs, even close-ups of the people who were speaking, the people who were protesting, the people who were articulating the message of the students and the protesters, and probably recognizable faces. Are you reluctant to show those pictures in public? Are you concerned that the Chinese government today would take steps? Well, I am concerned about that. And that's one of the reasons that I have not been vocal or visual with exceptions, very few exceptions about what happened in Tams Square until now. And the only reason I am now, and I feel free to open up about it is because so many other people are doing it on this 30th anniversary. And, yes, I was told by one of the journalists that I was in the square with, a writer from a news company in Canada, that we were not... If we had put the photos out of the people that we took pictures of, that they would be punished, the people, or their families would be punished. So, yeah, I was very concerned about that. Okay, well, I would be too, especially with the Chinese affinity for photo, for facial recognition technology. Yes. Because they could recognize people off those photos, even though it's 30 years later. I'm sure they could. Well, we have a few minutes left before we close. I would like to go through some of your other work, Catherine. Okay. Because I think it sort of frames what you did in Tiananmen, and it explains your life after Tiananmen. So, let's go through some photos now. I will describe them to you and give us the background. So, we have a photo of a man. That's a woman. A woman standing knee-deep in water with a pottery bowl. And where is that from? What was that project? That is in Ethiopia. The project is called Bad Water, and it was for World Vision. And I was the photographer hired for World Vision to document these people who could only get water from one particular area in Ethiopia. I think it was three villages, and it was all, you know, poisoned water. It was bad water. And so they would get diseases, and children were dying. And the reason I was there is to help bring that information out back with World Vision so that they could raise money to help build wells for these people to get clean water. We have more pictures in Ethiopia. Let's take a look at another one. Here's some kids playing in water in Ethiopia. They're very cute, but you really wonder if there are antigen in that water that is going to make them sick. Actually, they're drinking the water. That's where the water comes from. They're drinking the water, and it's contaminated. And, you know, it's, I believe it's two girls. And their hair, their heads shave because they have epidemics of lice, and so it's hard to tell, you know, girls from boys from a distance. But yeah, they're drinking the water because that's all they have. The cattle also get into the water and any other animals, and they also bathe in the same water. Now that's changed for that village because of this particular project that helped build wells and purification areas so that the people can have clean water. One picture is a thousand words, maybe more with megapixels. So let's go to the next one. Now here's an Ethiopian, what, a mother? Yes. And a child. That is a portrait of the two, and that is a remarkable photograph. What are we saying? There was this lady that had a hut there, and this was outside in the villages outside of Addis Ababa. And she had no money, of course, and she had a hole in her roof. And she was asking me to find out if she could get that hole in her roof fixed, and I had just given her one of my sandwich that we had for the crew that was working there. And she took the sandwich, which I thought, because they were starving. And I thought she would feed the sandwich immediately and fill her belly, but she didn't do that. She put the sandwich in her pocket, and she had this child. And I asked her, aren't you going to eat the sandwich? And she said, I mean, this is all broken languages. And she said, no, she was going to share it with all the other children in the area of the village there, and all of her children that she was connected with, that one sandwich. That story is extraordinary, and it tells you so much, not only about this woman, but about so many people just like her, about the life and times in Africa and Ethiopia at the time. It is very powerful. And so I call her, I call that the Madonna. Absolutely, absolutely. So now the picture we've been looking at during this show, it's you holding an award. What is that award? Just an award for winning an award for Hawaii, a voice for sovereignty, a documentary, and it's given by the Red Nation Film Festival, and it's for Best Environmental Photograph. And it won eight awards. That film was made in Hawaii over a period of five years to help raise awareness of sustaining the culture of Hawaii through the voice of the people and helping to give the voiceless a voice on what has happened to their culture. Let's spin through the last few of these photographs because we have to close. But I have a question for you, for Jay, for you and Jay. Can we air this film? Yes, of course. Sure we can, and we will. We will. Let me go through the rest of these because we don't have any time left. So this is what, Hawaii, a voice for sovereignty. That was the name of the movie and this is some of the materials about it. How long ago was this, Catherine? Well, it was released in 2012, and I started in 2005 and shot for five years and then spent the rest of the time promoting it throughout a lot of parts of the world, Italy and Australia and New Zealand. And won awards in most of the places that we actually entered it in and film festivals. And then finally released it in the theater in 2012. And it won some awards. Here's a shot of your winner of the best documentary film as a result of this in a variety of cities. That's quite impressive. Now I want to go to some of the photographs that were involved with the film. Here's a woman, a young woman in the back of a truck. Was that part of the film, or was that just something related to the film? It's part of the film, but I had a camera, a film camera on one shoulder and a video camera on the other shoulder. So that is actually a steal of the moment where I came upon this young girl in the back of a truck on a Sunday afternoon of Hawaiian culture. And I talked to her father and he said they came there because that's really the only place they could go. And it was really a dirty area where some of the sewage was coming in. And that the hotels had some of the places that they used to go to blocked off. So they just went over there to this dirty area because that was in their Hawaiian homelands. You know, I can't help but thinking that your experience in tenement prepared you for this. Or at least it changed your way of looking at things and every shot that you took after that somehow reflects your experience in tenement. Let's go a couple more real quick. Now here's, I guess it's a native Hawaiian man with long hair in the woods. That's a portrait for sure, black and white I guess. What's this about? This guy Aina, he is a Hawaiian person that was helping me understand what the culture was all about. He's really one of the first people that would talk to me on camera about the losses of the Hawaiian culture and the takeover of Hawaii in 1893. And so he was in the woods, a red area. He was going to take me to a sacred area and when we got there in that area he was going to pick some greens that he normally does to bring back to his family for all of his life. And when we got there, there were bulldozers right in front of us. Did you get a shot of the bulldozers too? Yeah, yeah I did. But the very special thing about that is that you can see how the forest itself and the expression on his face is when he saw it. You can see he's actually got a plastic bag. You can probably see a little bit of that. He was going to pick the greens and put it in the plastic bag. And so that was the moment that he realized that the bulldozers were coming to his sacred forest. Oh my goodness. More than a portrait, it's a story. And now I think this is the last one and we'll close our discussion on the point with this. This is a Native Hawaiian man holding the American flag with all 50 stars. What does this mean? Why did you take this? How does this relate to the film? Is that a hole in the flag? Yes, it's a hole. Very interesting, Marcia, that you point out. See where the stars, right at the bottom of the stars, right next to the stripe, the red stripe. So what is this? Yes, well, that's a kahu that was very active in supporting the Hawaiian culture and also what he's saying is it is not, Hawaii is not, it's not owned by the United States. Okay, I guess it makes the point. I really want to see that film and I hope we can arrange to show it on Think Tech. Marcia, we're out of time. Catherine, we're out of time. Marcia, I want to offer you the opportunity of thanking Catherine and closing our show. Thank you so much, Catherine. It's always a pleasure to spend time with you even if it is this long distance. Perhaps you can thank Marcia. Perhaps you can thank her coming back so we can show the film. Absolutely. That would be amazing. And I'm so glad to know that you were on there and thank you, Jay. Thank you, Catherine. It's wonderful to have you here and I would like to do more shows with you either here in person or by remote one way or the other. And I would like to show your sovereignty movie for sure. So we'll talk some more. Thank you. Aloha. Aloha.