 confession. Anytime he's around the investigator, the minute the investigator leaves, he sits back up. And he's not smart. I mean, this kid is like, he's a few bricks short. Hey, what does that we're talking about hair? What's if I think about Chase's new haircut? I like it. He got it done today. Looks really, I think it's very smart. Is that in regulation, Chase? I think it is. I think it is too. You're off the ear and off the collar. Yeah, it's super tight around the, around the sides there. It's it's yeah. All right, here we go. I'm Scott Rouse, my body language expert and analyst. I train law enforcement, the military and interrogation body language. I've also created body language tactics.com with Greg Hartley. Mark. I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language, and I help people all over the world to stand out win trust and gain credibility every time they communicate, including some leaders of the G seven. Chase. Hey, I'm Chase Hughes. I've published a few books on body language, persuasion and behavior analysis. Also have a website, chase use.com Greg. Greg Hartley, I'm a former army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor. And I've written a few books on body language and behavior, including this one I want to talk about a little bit. You are to body talk by career press. And I mostly spend my time today in corporate American Wall Street. And Scott and I have this number one course called body language tactics at body language tactics.com. Excellent. Well, today we're going to talk about Steven Avery and Steven Avery, as everyone knows, or most everyone from the Netflix special, making a murderer. And what we're doing here is we're looking at a piece of film that's Greg once you tell about that about what we're taking a look at you found it. Yeah, so guys, we all know this is a really complicated case. And we're looking at a snapshot in a window in time. And I'm not sure exactly the number of hours after the young lady goes missing, Teresa goes missing, Teresa Hallback, I believe is her name. She goes missing. And then a local radio or local TV station goes out and talks to the last place she was seen, or last place she went for her employer. This happens to be Steven Avery. And it's raw footage. We just pulled something other than what's being used on the Netflix show. And that we are only going to analyze this we may bring up some points about interrogation and that as we go. But it's only about this raw footage. And one of the first times that Steven Avery is seen in in any kind of connection to this case. So I've helped. Yeah, perfect. Chase, you had something you want to say as well, I think. I was gonna say a few things about the interrogation, but maybe we can bring that in as as we get into it. Yeah, I think there's a good opportunity later when we're talking about the the daisy interrogation. It's important we talk about. Excellent. Mark, what were you gonna say? Yeah, so I just want to say that, you know, my guess is that everybody out there has knows about this Steven Avery case. I didn't know about it. First time I saw any and people have said before about the Amanda Knox thing. Mark, you must have heard about this. I've been living in Canada for the last 15 years. I clearly don't watch the TV that you watch. Sorry about it. I didn't know about Amanda Knox. I didn't know about this. So in both cases, it's the first time that I'm seeing this footage. That could be helpful. Maybe it won't be all of you will know more about this than I do. But maybe what you don't have is the fresh eyes on it and no framework other than what you see right there. That's all I've looked at. You know, Mark, I had never watched the Netflix show didn't know who it was. When I started looking for video, I say, okay, what's hot? I go out and look and when you start looking, this is a hot one. So I started looking and started digging into this case and realizing, wow, this is really a mess. This guy was convicted wrongfully of rape, spent 18 years in prison, got out and then two years later, he's accused of this crime. Yeah, but it's a great piece of video. It is. Yeah, and it's I think it's good because we're not we're not here to prove innocence or guilt or anything like that. We're just like this piece of film and say our piece of video and say, look, here's what we see. And as we do this, we're not on the side of guilt or the side of innocence. We're going to say, look, we see deception and we see it here and here. And we'll see truth. We'll say we see truth in it here, here and here. That's all we're doing. We're not trying to, we don't know the backstory. Greg knows all about the backstory of the case and all that. I don't know that much about the backstory, either. I don't know if I know it all. This is a long one. I didn't I didn't even know who this guy was. I had to call Greg. Yep. I sent a video to Scott. Scott sent the video out and I started getting texts to was this guy. And I said, apparently, Steve, Steven Avery and and so even as latest today, I was digging up information. This is a long complicated case. And there's a reason the stuff we're talking about is on Netflix. And it's complicated. And people are looking to try to get resolution. That's the mess of a story. The same as the Amanda Knox or any of these others. Exactly. But as you go through the video here, just keep in mind, we're not analyzing the case, we're analyzing the clip. Great, great point. Exactly. And another thing, we're giving each other, it sounds like we're giving each other tips on body language. We're not. We're talking to the one person who wants to watch this, you know, to the viewer who says, I'm gonna learn something about about body language or human behavior. That's the person we're talking to. So that's what we're doing. We're not I'm not giving Greg. Greg, let me tell you how to interrogate a damn terrorist man. Here's where it goes down, or chase or or a marquee, the one I'm not telling anybody that but or a none of us are. So that's what we're actually doing is we're telling the person who's watching this. So if you're watching this, hopefully you learn something. I can't clarify that mark is teaching us most of the time like all the help I can get from from any of you. See, that's what the that's what pros always say. Oh, yeah, I'm just still in the learning process. I keep saying though, guys, and with all this, and we just keep talking, I hope people are enjoying this much as we are. We started this for us to hang out and we are learning from each other. And it's a cool thing. It's my favorite part of the week. Yeah, mine too. So right, I'm too. All right. Well, we've got five short clips. So let's start off with clip number one. And then when she left, which direction was she going? I mean, did she seem fine? Did she seem agitated? Same thing. Normal. But then she went out to the road and, you know, she goes to a Larby. I don't know where she goes, you know, after that, you know, because it feels all open, you know, you can see. So. So which direction was she going towards Larby? All right. Mark, what do you get? Yeah. So what I see, which is most important here, is there are three ice squints that happen. They they they're certainly for me targeting squints. There may be an element of anger there. I can't see anything in the top lip there. I don't see the head dip down. But what I see is a targeting movement that he does. What happens is when you squint, it stops the peripheral vision so much. So you get better targets on your eyes. I see it on after same thing after that. And when he says towards, I think he says, I don't know what he's saying. Is it Larby? Larby. Larby. Larby. Okay. Towards Larby. Me too. Okay. So if you want to check these out at home, when he says same thing after that and towards Larby, it is tiny. But I think it is notable that either there is anger there or a feeling of of something that needs targeting because it needs suppressing. My guess around this, therefore, is that there is some anger at the questions being asked right now. That's what I've got on that one. Greg, what do you got for me? Yeah. So this one's interesting. And some of it means nothing, but I'm going to point it out anyway. There's some fight or flight in him here. Lix's lip swallows heavy. That's normal. I mean, for some people in front of a camera, memory's been imprisoned before. And if this is something that he's concerned about, there you go. His shoulders up fairly consistently as he's telling a story. But I've watched enough video of him now to know some of that is his baseline at breaking eye contact away as he answers a lot of that's normal for him. So I'm not too worried about it. Now I'm talking for just a second about a thing that I always try to teach people. If you think about energy, direction and focus in a person, it can tell you a lot about where their mindset is. And when I say energy, is it high or low? When I say focus, it's internal or external. And when I say direction or the arrows aligned are scattered. If you take that and you use a model, and this is the reason I held up the Art of Body Talk. And here I talk specifically to this. But if your energy is high in his is for him and your arrows are scattered, you meaning not everything is focused. And then your internal or they're not aligned. And then you're internally focused. I call that distraction. And he clearly is distracted here. I can see it. I can feel it. I've watched other interviews with him. There's a distraction. That makes me want to know why. And if I were talking to him, I would then ask the next question. When he says same normal, he uses a very specific phrase to hide some time. And then he said she was the same normal. And then she went out on the road toward Larraby. OK, what is then then? Same normal. That's odd. When she asked the question, he does a little bit of chaff and no redirect there. But his eyes, I had the same note, the same note mark. His eyes scrutinize her more than one time during this thing. And you're going to have to pay attention to his lips very closely because of the facial hair. It makes it tough. He nods to confirm that he's gotten his message out that she went away and turned left. Does that mean he's guilty of anything? No, it just means his message, his normal body language is there, but he also has some other things that scrutinizing her, that distraction, those are pieces I'd be paying very close attention to. Scott, what do you got? I think what we're seeing here is he's using another time that he's because he's apparently she comes to his place like once a month and puts his his cars in, you know, the whatever their local paper thing is that sells cars. I think what he's doing is he's thinking back on the time when he's seen her before and exactly what's happened then. And that's why he's using that. So that's why he's watching. He's very careful about what he says and as he steps towards talking to her. And his his blink rate. And I know I want to steal from Chase. No, you're probably going to bring and say, slow, man, literally he blinked six times in this clip. Once she asks him the question anyway, he blinked six times. Now, that's not real slow, but that's pretty slow. And usually if you're being deceptive, which I don't believe he's in a way he's being accepted, they're seeing all different kinds of deception in this in this case, in my opinion, he's thinking about another time he's told these he's seen her leave. And he's telling about that time. But at the same time, that's bothering because he knows he's not telling the truth there. So that's why it's keeping an eye on her to make sure his brain wants to keep an eye on her. So he's not blinking a whole lot. So if he needs to add qualifiers, which we seem to do later on in a big way, he can he can start doing that. We see that the little the shoulder shrugs there. Absolutely. So I see a little shoulder shrug when one shoulder comes up and down. It means they're being deceptive. I don't think that's here. I think that's more of a as a matter of fact, I don't know. I think that's where he's coming from is as a matter of fact, approach to it. So that's what we're seeing. I don't care. It's as a matter of fact that should have the other thing. So that that's what that's what I'm seeing. So Chase, what do you got? So I'll I'll not touch on anything that you guys were talking about here, but I will come back to the squint here in just a little bit. But we see that unwavering eye contact. He doesn't even break it during conversation or to do any recall. But I'd like you just to imagine if you wrote a story, you made up a story and it ended with the woman got in her car and she left. And that's how you ended the story. And then one of your readers finds you on the street one day and is pissed off. And they say, I want to know where she went. And since you didn't finish the story, you didn't finish writing the rest of that story, you might say, I don't know where she goes after that. But if you had written another chapter, you might say, I don't know where she went. Or I can't say where she went there. So I think that's notable here and that's worth paying a little bit of attention to. And later on, as always, I'll bring a little research up from a guy named David Givens and we'll talk about that squint and we'll dissect the most recent research that's been contributed to the field from 1985. And what David's got to say, not what Chase Hughes got to say, but let's hear from the expert himself. And the nodding after each statement. I don't know his baseline, but this is definitely a data point I'm going to pick up on. And if I start seeing nodding in an interrogation as I'm asking these questions, where is she? Where does she go? I'm going to reel back and go back like what kind of car was it you have again? And what do you work? How many days a week do you guys work here? Is it typically eight or nine hours? I'm sure it's got to be really stressful and let the person talk and see if the head nodding continues. If it does continue, it'll be less of a data point in the future. And that's all I got. And then when she left, which direction was she going? I mean, did she seem fine? Did she seem agitated? Same thing, normal. But then she went out to the road and, you know, she goes to a Larby. I don't know where she goes, you know, after that, you know, because the field's all open, you know, you can see. So. So which direction was she going in towards Larby? Excellent. All right, everybody good? Yeah. Did they ask you to take a polygraph or anything like that? No, no. Well, tonight cops come in, they asked me if I remember anything. And I told them, no. Then they asked me if they can come in the house and check the house over. I said, I've got no problem with that. Come on in. So they checked the house all over. Everything was fine and they left. All right, Chase, what do you got? When he's talking about the cops coming over, he's truthful. We know he's being truthful about this. It's a real event. So we got to see a little bit of genuine eye accessing here, which for me and for you watching the clip was at our nine o'clock. If we're looking at a clock on his face, he kind of looks over that direction as we're looking at the clip. So this is a great data point here that we saw that he does look away to access truthful information. And he typically looks off to his right over there to your nine o'clock. And we also saw they asked me if I remember anything. And I told them I don't remember anything. But I might say, and this is me, somebody, most people would say, well, all I remember is I left a voicemail. All I remember was we were scheduled to do this at this time. So we would typically not say nothing, especially if we just served 18 years. We'd want to try to be some sort of cooperative. And right here we see a little bit of a chin thrust when he says they left, we see a little bit of a chin thrust and primates, including us, which are our nearest relative is a bonobo chimp. And they do it as well as we do when we want to show that we're sometimes angry or challenging to another primate. And it might not be the reporter. It might be the idea of the police leaving his house that makes him do that. But this is a way that we expose our vital organs to say, I'm not afraid. I'm not fearful. Kind of a chin thrust is what I think what it's most commonly referred to as. Greg, what do you got? So I'm with you rise the chin. That's pride. That's strength. That's, you know, I got through it. When they ask him, I had the same note. You wouldn't say no. Typically you would say, hey, here's what I remember. There's a moment where he does a little inside the mouth nibble there. And I think he's got some fight or flight going on. Start to get dry mouth. You move your mouth around. He also does a lip compression. Hard to see. You have to look at it through the hair. He does a lip compression at the very end of this after he's doing the whole body nod. You have a slight rise of his left eyebrow when she was talking to him, kind of skeptical and then a squint again. So you see that scrutiny he's placing on her. And I think you're dead on. I don't think it's about her. I think it's about authority. I will tell you that when I saw like every interview I see with him where he is with someone who is in some kind of authority, his demeanor is different than when he is talking about, hey, I'm living in this fishing shed where he's bubbly and normal and talking about how much better his life is. I think when you get him to a point of authority, you see a little bit of a different thing. And he's had a long history with law enforcement, not just the being locked up erroneously or mistakenly or whatever you want to call that. So I think he's just happy. They're gone. They came. He got out of that. And the next question will get give us a little bit more insight into who he is. OK. Scott, I think we're going to let Mark out. OK. Here's what I'm seeing this. I'm seeing it like Chase was talking about. I think we're seeing mostly truth here. And again, his blink rate is low because I think he's trying to keep an eye on this one and make sure it doesn't go sideways on him. And then his tone sort of denotes that he's he's guarded and what he's saying is being he's not being super careful, but he's being careful with what he's saying as well there. And also, I think we're seeing don't talk about psychopathy in a few minutes. I'll move on from there. There's yeah, I'll wait. I'll wait on that subject. OK, Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So he says everything is fine and then they left. He's nodding his head for agreement of that. He also then does a chin raise that could be arrogance. That could be confrontation. He gets strong eye contact. He gets a bitter taste in his mouth. He then does. Oh, he then does a bit of tongue tongue jut. And I think it's I think it's grooming. But you may want to look at that, whether it's a lick of the lips or a push out. And then, yeah, I think that's about. Yes, that's it. That's it. And the other thing is he's got his hands tight by his side at the same time. I don't know his baseline. So that could be him trying to control himself. That could be how he normally is. Greg, you've looked at his baseline. Which which one do you think it might be? So this is Wisconsin and very heavy German population and Germanic folks, not a lot of waving hand movement and that kind of thing like you might find Mediterranean cultures. And he is a classic example of a Wisconsinite very contained arms down right making his point. OK, so we're not going to see maybe any illustrators from him. We won't see any self soothing around here because his hands are probably not going to going to come up. I don't see it in this video. So what do I take from this first part of it? Again, there is something he doesn't like about this. Everything was fine. And then they left. There's something he doesn't like about it. It's distasteful what's going on there now. Is that an act that he did or was part of? Or is it just the thing of he's being questioned in this way and he doesn't doesn't like it. I'm not sure which one it is, but he doesn't like it at the moment. Did they ask you to take a polygraph or anything like that? No, no. Well, tonight cops come in. They asked me if I remember anything. And I told them no. And then they asked me if they can come in the house and check the house over. I said, I've got no problem with that. Come on in. So they checked the house all over. Everything was fine and they left. All right, everybody good? Yeah, all good. Let's go. If they asked you to take a polygraph with you, would you not? Well, I got none to hide. Do you want me to? I don't care. I'm just at home, work up there all day. I barely go anywhere. That's why I go to Mantua can come back. That's about it. So so when you heard about it. All right, Mark, what do you got? Good. So here's what I see. Would you take a polygraph? Here's what we get is we get an eye eye break. He does a shrug. That wouldn't mean to me. There is something that he maybe doesn't know or this is just problematic. But he says sure. He says sure. But at the same time, his body for me is saying, I don't quite know. Then he does a lip pucker or piercing. Yeah, that's problematic as well. There's something that is up there. He doesn't like it. And then he also gives a disgust gesture as well. So there's this sense of pushing something out of your mouth, a bad taste in your mouth and disgust at the same time with this targeted eye narrowing again. And at the end of it all, I think he squares off even more to the interviewer. The camera does shift about a little bit. So it could be the angle changing, but I'm pretty sure he shifts himself around as well to be squared off, more confrontational to the interviewer. And then he gives his reason for not needing to do the polygraph is that he is either at home or he's working over there or he's somewhere else. And that just doesn't have any logic just because you're in only three different places. Doesn't mean that you shouldn't take some kind of polygraph or not. They don't they don't match up for me. So, you know, it's quite problematic what's happening there around his idea of should he take a polygraph or not. He says sure, whatever you like, but I don't think his body says that in any way whatsoever. Chase, give me what you've got. I saw a lot of the same things that you did, Mark. And we saw that shrug with a little bit of disgust there and there's some ambiguous reasoning like, sure, I'll take a polygraph and here's what I do most of the time. And I'll just kind of go through my schedule. And at the end, he's saying, and that's about it. And what we see here, I think it's hard to see with the angle, but I think we're seeing what's called a dominant leg retreat. And when your dominant leg goes back, that's when your body is getting ready for some kind of confrontation. And I think a very plausible explanation for this is an automatically built in mistrust of the police from his previous 18 years he spent falsely convicted of a crime. And it may not indicate guilt. This is probably not a guilt indicator. This is probably a polygraphs are extremely unreliable. B. He probably didn't trust the police. I wouldn't either, to be honest. Scott, what do you got? All right, here's what I'm seeing. There's going to go a little bit against maybe what you guys said a little bit. But I think this is one of those things when Greg sent me this. I was like, yeah, this is kind of boring, but this is what makes interrogators light up when they see three, four things happen at one time. We see that lip person. Now, when someone purses their lips, usually it indicates it denotes it suggests that person doesn't agree with what's happening. They're not into that. They don't like what's has been said or what's happening. So that's why, and boy, it was a big one. And then we see eye blocking when he closes his eyes and he turns away just a little bit. So people block their eyes when they're if you're at work and somebody starts telling a horrifically blue joke and you'll see some people cover their eyes or you're giving someone information they don't want or it's bad information they'll cover their eyes a lot of times. That's what it or a lot of times like Chase calls it your what is it chase where your eyes close for a long time when you're blinking slows down. You called it something was great. The what rate? That's the shutter speed shutter speed. That's what it was. So we see even though he's not blinking, which I think he blinks seven times in this whole thing, maybe eight in this one. And so we see his shutter speed really slowed down on those because he doesn't like that. Then we see what I always look for. You always I'm always talking about how people use their their elbows and doing things. This is a classic. When I'm training, I use this example and somebody I have somebody ask me, is that your dog outside? And I go, no, that's not my dog outside. And I do my shoulders real quick, a little bit overdone so they can see what's happening. I tell him I've shown him four to seven things that will tell them I may not be I may be being deceptive with him. We see actually almost a wave of his shoulders like this. He does it so fast. So I think his brain is like clocking quick in there because he's thinking about that lie detector test that the lie detector. I don't now bless his heart. He's probably the greatest guy in the whole world. I'm not the smartest guy in the world. I don't think we're dealing with an intellectual giant in this case. So I think he may believe that a lie detector test would be able to tell if he's telling a lie or not. So that kind of spooks him. Then because when she says what you know that we see all that right after she asked, would you take a lie detector test, a polygraph test? Then we see the classic qualifiers afterwards. That's why that's why. And she does a great job again. I know I was talking about whether the interviewer is good or bad, but I think she's great because she asked a question and just holds the microphone or doesn't say anything. So when he doesn't. So he says it wouldn't bother him to take it and all that. Then there's that pause where she's still looking at him. He goes, you know, I just work here every day and I do this and he goes on to tell his schedule what he does all the time. Most of the time, sometimes they go out of town and come back and not very often. And those are those classic qualifiers when someone is nervous, they'll start adding things to their story to make it sound, make it more believable. There. That's why his blink rate slows. He's keeping an eye on her, making sure she believes him. He just starts adding those things because he's so dang uncomfortable. Then when he swallows and backs up a little bit, a lot of times when someone's not being honest, they're being deceptive with you, they'll back up a little bit. I agree with Chase on that when that when that right leg goes back, man. That's when you that's what that's one of the first things you look for. Greg will tell you also when this what watch the shoulders because you see that shoulder go back as well. And we see that there. And what he's doing is he's rebalancing almost like he's getting he's getting ready to to start a fight because you see people get a little squatting and and move like that before they'll they'll take a swing at you. We've all been the interrogation over. See somebody get you get ready to to come on in man for to see if they can tag you real good. And so that that's what I see. So then at the end when he does that swallow as well, that's when that's when everything went. Geez, this is awesome. He's I think that bothers me. I don't know if he's being deceptive with all that with all that. Having said all that and shown all that, but he doesn't want to take a lie detector test. That's for dang sure. That's my opinion anyway. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so you guys have covered most of it. I will tell you that what you covered those clusters. I call that face of dismissal or face of disapproval. So instead of it being a thing like the disgust and then the pursing of the lips, it's all things and rotating his head out of the way as if oh, I'm not doing that. You know that regardless of what his mouth is saying his head's excusing the whole concept. He rocked. Remember, I always say humans have known about body language forever. He literally rocks back on his heels literally in this case and puts his weight away from from the the person he's talking to. Listen to this audio and you can hear him breathing very shallow. Just his breathing has changed. His left brow rises at the end of the comment as if to be skeptical of the whole concept. This is interrogator 101. I ask you a yes or no question. 37 words before you get to yes or no is a bad indicator of deception. Usually doesn't mean you're lying means you're being deceptive about feelings or something else. So I dig in worse. Yes. Constant eye contact constant. I think it's like seven seconds of eye contact here. And that's nervous energy needing to go somewhere else. And that usually is what I'm looking for is a pattern. So I'm with you, Mark and Scott. I think you're probably right. They say his IQ is not very high. But I think he probably does believe that like many people that a polygraph is magical and they'll know. And you know, Lena tells a story Dave Wilson, a guy of New Year's ago, they used a Game Boy in Somalia to convince someone that it was a lie detector and they believed it because they think it's magic. This is not the smartest of guys, but he's doing a declaration of innocence. He rocks back on his heels when he gets to this. And I would chase him pretty hard if he took 37 words to give me a no answer or yes answer. That's interrogator red flag. That's all I got. I throw something in here. Scott, I don't think you disagreed with anybody. And I'll tell you, you know, you're watching this video right now. If you go and purchase a book on interrogation, it'll most likely be something called the read technique. And one of those first steps that they first little secret steps they teach you are two questions. Would you take a polygraph? Or did they ask you to take a polygraph? Would you take a polygraph? And the secret follow up to that is, well, I mean, if you wouldn't take it, how do you think you would do on a polygraph? And we ask how we ask them to estimate how they would do on a polygraph. So she's doing some really good stuff here. But I'll tell you one more secret that you won't hear many body language experts say, there is no such thing as deceptive behavior. There is no human behavior that shows that it's deceptive. What we're looking for is stress and disagreement between words and body. And we're reading words. Some things are more likely to be deceptive, but the behavior is not. Yeah, I think that's a great catch. And what I would say is this, when I say this indicates deception, it doesn't mean that this if I do this, it means you're deceiving somebody because some people do that all the time and it means nothing. But I say it too. Right. Yeah. And just one of the things for people to get is deception also doesn't mean lying. Deception can be all kinds of things. It simply turns us to think to your point that if you think about a polygraph, the thing we all think, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever, they're measuring three channels. We're measuring many channels. We're just looking for deviation. That's all we're looking for. Exactly. That's why we always say it denotes it suggests it indicates deception. Not like that means deception. That's an absolutist. You'll hear people say, I'm not an absolutist, but they'll tell you that there is on that's been deceptive. I've seen people do that stuff on the news. And it's like, you got to be kidding me. Yeah. And it's anyway, so that's one of my, the whole TEDx talk on that. That's one of my soapbox. I'll throw a little piece of research in here. I think the researcher was Rosie R. O. S. S. I. If two people like each other and they're in trust and rapport, the average contact eye contact in Westernized countries is seven seconds before it breaks. But if you don't like someone or you're not very well acquainted like him and this other person, it's around four and a half. So I think Greg, you're spot on with that research. It's excellent. If they asked you to take a polygraph with you, would you not? I got none to hide. They want me to. I don't care. I'm just at home, work up there all day. I barely go anywhere. Once a while, I go to Mantua, I can come back. That's about it. So, so when you heard about it. Okay, good. Yeah. Yeah. So, so when you heard about it, how did you feel? It's too close to home, something happening. It's not good. Everybody locks their doors now around here. It's pretty bad when something happens around here. I can see somewhere else, but this is too close to home and get a little worried and know your family. Chase, what do you got? Well, I think here we see something interesting when he says we see something happen around here, but nothing's happened yet. According to all the evidence and all the data that's available to everybody. It's just someone that hasn't checked in with family or someone that's missing, reportedly missing. And I thought that was an interesting turn of phrase. Could be as normal. It's a great data point to look at. And we see another thing here that he says it's a little too close to home. If he's guilty. The thing that happened very close to home could be a tremendously revealing phrase here. It's very close to home. It's too close to home. And that could be indicative of some kind of guilt or regret about where the crime took place, if he was guilty. I thought that was unusual. And he said, you get a little worried and your family. At the end, that's it. That was the real closing statement. You get a little worried and your family. I thought that was interesting. I'll leave the rest alone. I'll pass it over to Mark. Yeah, thank you. So he's asked, how did you feel? He doesn't name a feeling. Doesn't really answer that question. Now, that's not to say that, you know, everybody is able to name feelings. You need a certain vocabulary to be able to name feelings. It might be true to say some males may be able to name less feelings than some females. But on the whole, somebody who knew you might expect the feeling might be able to get named. But just as Chase says there, he says, well, you know, it's too close, it's too close to home, something happening. So there's something happening. Here's something I've learned from from from Chase. There is this this distancing element, something happening, something happening. That's very unspecific. And just as Chase says there, it's too close to home, which he repeats twice. It's too close to home. Now, again, I want to assure you, I knew nothing about this, but I've got a big, big emphasis around it's too close to home being said twice. And I found out, I think it was from Chase or Gregory that there was some evidence found around the home, very close to the home. Anyway, what is most important for me, I think, is the downward bark that he does at the end. So when you clear your throat on the whole, I would suggest when you actually trying to get stuff out there, you cough up. Or when you try to clear your lungs, you cough up. He coughs down and actually makes a low sound in the lungs. That for me is a primate bark that says, you're going to stop this now. I'm taking control. This is the end of this now. That's what I've got. Scott, what do you know? This is where I think we start seeing I did a whole thing on him being a psychopath and why I believe he is on a whole video that's six months long. But this is one of the first things that that I think cue us off that start looking for psychopathy in this in this situation, because right there when he said when something happened, he's saying he doesn't know what it was, but apparently something horrible. We're seeing him talk about feelings and things without naming the feelings. I think he's not naming the feelings because he doesn't know what they are. He doesn't understand what feelings are. A lot of times you'll have examples of and I'm sure we've all dealt with this where we see we're talking to a psychopath and they'll start taking those things. We're saying if something makes us angry, I think Greg I've told you the story about the guy when I was I was talking about taxes once and then hearing him later on in a restaurant, one table, one in the booth right behind me talking about that. I was like, oh my God, because he was using the same descriptive terms I was because and he ended up he'd done some really horrible stuff, which we're still trying to catch up now. And so and that guy ended up being a psychopath. We're seeing that we're seeing the beginnings of the hall marks of the psychopath here when he can't describe what feelings are. So since Mark covered all the what he was saying and stuff, when he starts saying everybody starts to lock their doors down here that has nothing to do with but it does have something to do with feelings. I feel unsafe and all that but why would he know they would feel unsafe at that point if nothing if nothing's been discovered if nothing's happened yet. So and you're right, Mark, is being close to home. It was about 4550 feet away from his home where they start finding evidence of the teeth and everything else in his in his fire barrel or whatever. So Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so there's an interesting thing here is the first time we've seen him showing any kind of almost shock that she asked this question about how he feels. It's something he hasn't considered. You can clearly tell. And then he turns his head and she's not asking him how he feels about the weather. She's asking him how he feels about this person he knew who's disappeared. And he frames it in terms of self. Nothing about her. Not one thing. He says, well, it's, you know, it's a he goes on to say the whole thing about something happening. He distances from here to use the word you would use their chase. I call it passive voice. Just passive voice. Something's happened to her. Then he says something and things happening around here close to home, too close to home. He doesn't really say anything about her. It's all about him. It's all about frame of references him. And often people who commit crimes and those kinds of things will use terms that frame things in points of who they are and how it impacts them. And, you know, this Amanda Knox has a thing on, I believe it's Amazon right now about how people frame crimes. I'd love to hear some of those and see. But often people will frame it in terms of them. This is the most animated he's been yet. If you watch him, he's talking about this. When he's talking about self and it too close for him, he gets animated. And then I think he's got some fight or flight going. You see him swallow and do a little bit of that. But you guys have covered most everything I saw. Just the one difference is I think he frames it in terms of self, not in terms of the other person. Not a good sign when you're interrogating somebody, when they do that. So we're seeing a cluster and a pattern that would cause people to go after him and chase him. Yeah. OK, good. That's it. Be all over him. Yeah, me too. I mean, with that statement right there, I would go after him really hard. But I would do it in a whole different way. He wouldn't know that I was angry. Oh, no. Yeah, none of us. I'm the friendliest. I'm the scariest looking friendly guy you're ever going to meet in your life. You know where I'd go because you said at the end you started talking about family. I'd start I'd start saying, tell me about that. Yeah, yep. Because there's something there's something important about the family. Well, there's like, Mark, you're dead on. Go read this story. All right. There was a meltdown when he was in prison with his family and they all imploded and he got divorced. And OK, long story. To Scott's point about the psychopath stuff, the first crime he was ever committed of. He pleaded no, no contest to it. He soaked a cat in gasoline and threw it into a fire. Yeah, that's Psycho One much younger. Yeah, yeah, I'm getting ready to go over that list when the next video. So yeah, if you want. No, no, no, no. No, I want to do that, man. It just shows you, you know, what's we're all talking about the same thing. We all see the same stuff, you know, and some people somebody will say something really and you have to cross up what they're saying. But no big deal. I'm down with that. Are you good? Yeah, this is one one, guys. I mean, when I first saw the idea, I didn't think we had this much. Yeah, good. You know, when I first watched the video, I was like, yeah, yeah, this is oh, wait. Yeah, yeah, yeah. As soon as I saw that face go into it, man, yes, his face started lighting up. I was like, here we go. So so when you heard about it, how did you feel? It's too close to home. Something happening. It's not good. Everybody locks their doors now around here. That's pretty bad when something happens I could see somewhere else. But this is too close to home and get a little worried and know your family. And it doesn't. All right, there we go. And it does it. I mean, knowing her, I mean, are you what are your feelings for her parents and. They must be going through hell. I figured my mom and my dad and everybody else, my family, they went through hell when I went to did 18 years for some I didn't do. I figured they're going through probably the same thing because they lost somebody or whatever. Now she's got to be out there somewhere. So somebody should be looking. OK, Greg, you want to go first? Sure. Yeah. This pay attention to this eye closing and contracting and paying really focused attention on her again, talking about her. He frames the response in his own experience. They must be going through hell. Her parents didn't talk about her at all about how frail she might be. What could be going on? Talked about her parents and my parents immediately flips it back to him. This has got me on the run. I want to go after him when I hear this. And so what's I got to do with anything? How your parents felt while you were away? What do you think about her and her grief? Because you knew her. His eyes do drop down into the right, which you typically associate with emotion. He may be looking for the feeling that he should have for that. I always joke about an old friend of mine, Jim Robbins, who has since passed who would joke he was a construction manager and say, you've hurt my feeling. This guy might not say the same thing, but they must be going through hell and he turned it all about him. And then his brow goes up and he does a little bit of a request for approval when he's talking about self. And he said, they've lost somebody or whatever. That's an interesting, either he knows she's dead or whatever is an interesting kind of a turn of phrase. And words matter, Chase, you say it all the time. Words matter. And the words he's just used are pretty big red flag. If you think that's something after right now, they don't even know anything about foul play. If I recall correctly, no one's seen her in a while and they're looking for. His blink rate, even with focus goes through the roof during this piece. It's the most blinking I've seen and he's focused on her and has eye contact. Usually you don't see that as much. And then finally, his nostrils flare at the end. You can hear a shallow breathing and his nostrils flare at the end. I think he realizes this is not the way he should answer. And he's doing a self edit inside and thinking, oh, that might not have been the right answer. That would be my guess. Chase, what do you got? I agree with everything you said, Greg, there. I think there was a genuine recall at the very beginning when he did the inhale. And there was some genuine facial tension. He's referencing his own parents and what his own parents went for. So we saw the recall go over here again. We saw that little bit of recall and references her parents again. There's some emotional access even to referencing her parents which I thought was interesting. The eyes went down this direction when he was doing that. So there was a little bit of emotion accessing there. Lost somebody. Then he shook his head, no, followed by a shoulder shrug. Big deal. Cause I think he's trying to backpedal as fast as he can when he says or whatever and backpedal from that. And we see right when he says or whatever lost somebody and gotta be out there somewhere. Right there we see the eye movement down here. And this muscle down here is called the inferior oblique. And we have the big one around here that's the obicularis oculi and the inferior oblique right here. And when that squeezes inward, David Givens wrote about this in the most recent report that I could ever find. And I think I've read this a couple of years ago but David Givens said, quote, that our muscles in the eye squeeze on the lower end to remove body parts cause it pulls the eye backwards to remove body parts from threatening circumstances. I think that was a beautiful description there. And we see actual pupil dilation of around one to two millimeters when he says lost somebody. That's a really good data point there. And granted for everybody out there who thinks we're magic I had to watch it three or four times and zoom in on this thing. Sometimes in one-on-one conversations I see this stuff but it's not very often. And I've got to be within three feet of somebody to catch it. And I think that's important. And another great quote I think here is that this nonverbal behavior is more accessible to the people observing it than the people that are producing it. So that's why we're saying what we're saying. There's a tremendous amount of research on this stuff from credible people. So if you watch one interesting piece here is listen to the person who is asking the questions. She sounds almost exasperated with his answers. That's an interesting one but she's magical with it and she gives him room to talk and they zoom the camera. There's a reason you can see the pupil dilation. So it's a really good piece of reporting I think. Okay. Scott, what do you got? Okay. Well, I'll go down my list of why I think we're dealing with a psychopath here. When he was young, psychopaths in general, what they'll get, there's people in the impression there's a sociopath and a psychopath. No, sociopaths, what they call is just violent people. They end up in jail really early, they end up getting killed. They usually end up killing people or being killed, being stabbed a lot of the time. Why that is, I don't know. I guess it's because it's more personal that way. So you have, and psychopath is not used in court a lot. You try not to use a psychopath because most people are in the impression, a psychopath, if you were to hand him a knife, they would just start stabbing everybody in the room or a hatchet or whatever. But that's not the case at all. You can have some kind of an episode where you might flip out and start doing that but not with psychopaths in general. Now, one of the things that psychopaths when they're younger, one of the things that even documented by Robert Hare, the Michael Jackson Elvis Presley of psychopathy, the father of sort of, I guess. He talks about how they'll get, when they're young, they'll be, they'll have been in trouble. When somebody comes to me and they think I'm married to a psychopath or I'm dating, what do I do? The first thing you ask them is, they've had a history of drug problems in there, they're drinking those down. Oh yeah, yeah, getting in trouble when they're young, doing, you know, breaking into things. Yeah, yeah, what about cruelty to animals? You know anything about that? Well, his sister said something about, he used to do something to dogs or whatever. When you start hearing cruelty to animals, especially, that's when you start, you can start worrying about, you might be dealing with a psychopath. Kids will be kids and sometimes they'll do stuff to cats or dogs or whatever, once. When they see what that actually does and they won't do that anymore, most of the time. So when you, Steven Avery had all that, he had alcohol use when he was young, got arrested several times as a youth, ended up throwing that cat in the fire when he was young, all that stuff is documented that shows those things. Then we see here, when he talks about, what are you feelings for the parents? He has to compare what he's seen. He doesn't know, he can't talk about that because he's, I don't think he's smart enough to know to go start researching that. What are feelings? What are these things I need to do? So I'll make sure I fit in with what's happening here. Which usually happens when people discover their psychopaths, they discover that and they start mimicking what people are saying and how they act because they don't know what those emotions are when they see them. So when he starts comparing what he has to compare, what he's seen, not what he's felt, what he's seen other people act when he's under the impression they're upset or in fear or whatever, that's what we're seeing here. We're seeing, well, my family, my parents went through that. That's the only thing you can do is make that comparison because he cannot tell you how they must feel because he has no earthly idea. Simply because his amygdala aren't working properly. It may be missing, it may be damaged, maybe it's not functioning properly. You can tell an fMRI machine several different ways you can look at a brain and tell what's happening. Another thing to look for is that eyebrow movement we see very little through the whole, through all five of these videos and through that entire discussion she has with the reporter, we see very little eyebrow, brow movement at all. A lot of times, as Greg would point out, that you'll see that the lower amount of eyebrow and brow movement in the person who's autistic, who's on the spectrum. And a lot of times you'll get these confusing things about an autistic person and someone who is a psychopath. You'll see little things that are very similar because even though autistic people feel the emotions, they don't know how to react to those emotions and how to look what we call normal to other people. So that, having said all that, that's why I think we're dealing with psychopath here. And we're seeing him, not the smartest guy in the world, most people are the impression psychopaths are these billion people that do all this stuff. No, not all the time, because we're looking at one here and this guy is not very smart at all. That's why I think we're seeing as a psychopath and that's one of the earmarks is having to describe what you've seen because you don't understand those emotions yourself. So, Mark, you wanna wrap it up? Yeah, for sure. Look, here's what I see. So first of all, I hear the breathing pattern, the rhythm and the cadence at the start of anger and aggression. What's really, so he's coming through his nostrils, it's really clear on the mic, coming in and out through his nostrils, pretty fast and powerful. Now, the interesting thing is, is I don't see it on his face. So there's this, so either he doesn't show the feelings of anger on his face or he's really good at suppressing his face from doing that stuff, but he's charged up, I would suggest at this point. You're right, he says they lost someone. That's not possible to tell at this point. Somebody's missing, but that wouldn't be they've lost somebody. It's like they've gone missing or they've been abducted or I don't know what's happened here, but he says they lost someone. He's not in a position to be able to say that at this point. And then we get that eye targeting, that closing of the eye. And then he says, or whatever, and we see it again. And then he says, must be out there somewhere and we see it again. Because I think at this point, as Chase was saying, he's backpedalling on this. Someone should be looking, he says. But again, we don't see anger around this. We don't see, come on, the cops should be out there. I know this person. I'm getting straight in my vehicle. I'm getting out there. We need to get a posse together. We need to be searching the area. I'm really worried about this person. Just somebody should be looking, but with quite a relaxed attitude to him. Now, I know the baseline from what I'm hearing from Greg may well be very tied down and relaxed, but even still, I would expect a little more vibrance there. And here's what really nails it for me, is the interviewer. The interviewer at the end of this says, okay. And there's a tonality in the voice that says she doesn't buy any of this. She's right there in front of him and she's buying none of it. So for me, it's an extraordinary video because it does go through quite a trajectory of storytelling and potential deceit and suggestions of things that have happened that somebody shouldn't know and underlying aggression and anger that doesn't show across the whole of the body, the ability not to be able to name emotions but sublimate them in things that you've seen but not be able to really feel them yourself. Well done, Greg, because it's an extraordinary video. And when I started watching this myself, I thought this isn't gonna be much and it's turned into an absolute jamboree and festival of exactly, if you watch this show, which you do, exactly the kind of thing that you might wanna see there, I'll end it there. Awesome. And it does it, I mean, knowing her, I mean, are you, what are your feelings for her parents? And they must be going through hell. I figured my mom and my dad and everybody else, my family, they went through hell when I went to get 18 years for something I didn't do. And I figured they're going through probably the same thing because they lost somebody or whatever. Now she's gotta be out there somewhere. So somebody should be looking. Okay. So let's do Chase's thing where we go around, throw around room and this time everybody give a percentage of what you think is deception and what you think is truth from what we're seeing. And Greg, why don't you go first? Yeah, I'm gonna say he's about a third truth because he's telling you, you know, just the mechanics of what he's heard, of what the story is, but all that exaggerated, long drawn out stuff in there is about two thirds filler. Okay. So Chase, what do you think? I think I've got around 45% truth here. Okay. Mark? I'm going straight down the center of both of those. My math is not good. So I don't know what the center of that is. I don't know, excuse me, I don't know. But yeah, they just, you know, obviously there's stuff that he's saying which is absolutely accurate. You know, the police showed up, they had a word with him. And then there's other stuff which we know probably cannot be accurate anyway. And then there's how I think he's concealing some of his intentions around what he's doing and the energy that he has for it. I was gonna say feelings there, but they're trickied up to try and detect. They're not fully formed as I can see them. So it's an interesting, he's an interesting guy. I'm going 70, 30. I think it's 70% being truthful and then 30% deception and because we see, simply because those last two we're seeing all the, you know, he's just making stuff up there, not making stuff up, but he's creating his answers there as he's comparing his, you know, about feelings and all those things. So I'm giving it 70, 30. All right, well, that's the end of this one. And so if you're, when you're watching this, make sure you subscribe and hit that little bell over there. So when we get a new one, it'll show up on your feed and you'll know when we have a new one come out. We start putting out these little short things that Mark's putting together that work it really well. So, all right, is everybody else good? Yeah. And guys, if you do subscribe, I know every YouTuber that you will ever watch wants you to subscribe, wants you to like and wants you to do it for you. We want you to help us too. It's gonna really help out the YouTube algorithm if you do that stuff and we would really appreciate it. Thank you. Excellent. All right, see you guys next time. See you. All right. I think that was good. That was great. Yeah. I'm not sure when I watched this thing the first time, I think I'm with you, Mark. It turned into a treasure trove once you really watched it. Yeah. Yeah. I watched it the first time. I was like, what the fuck did Greg send us? I was like that the first week, cause I'd watched a couple of them. I've watched, cause it's Greg's.