 Cluster together with my colleague, Catherine, who I have also seen online. Catherine, if you can make sure that your camera is on so the colleagues can get to see you. This is the first time, actually, that you joined one of our events as our new coach here. So we are very happy to welcome you too to the work of the task team. And with this, it's my pleasure to, of course, introduce you all to Paola Barsanti, our legal aid specialist that has been working with us for the past couple of years on this fantastic project on legal aid in humanitarian settings. And Paola, I'll let you take it from here. Thanks. Thank you so much, Martina. Thank you to everybody for making the time to attend this fourth webinar on engaging with informal justice actors and mechanisms to respond to legal aid and justice needs in humanitarian settings. We have a wealth of participants and speakers and attendees today. We have among us representatives of UN agencies from the Development, Peace, Human Rights and Humanitarian spheres. So we have practitioners, specialists and research representatives from international organization, from national organization. We have also some donors representative. Thanks also for their active participation in supporting this important project within the Global Protection Plaster Task Team on Law and Policy. Your active engagement is very much appreciated. As I was saying, this is the fourth of a series of webinars, which started last year. We touched upon legal aid needs in crisis settings under different perspectives. We looked at reparation context, the transitional justice context and we look at legal aid needs to protect the right to legal identity last time in May. Today, the topic is engaging with informal justice sector and as I said, and as you can see from the agenda, we have fantastic speakers. We will open with the introduction of UNITR, Bernadette from the Division of International Protection, UNITR and Stefano from IEDLO. And then we will pass on to the panel members. We will facilitate an interactive and very rich exchange between many speakers coming from IRC, International Rescue Committee, and UNITR from Community Unit 8. Daniel, thank you again for taking one day off your leave and from UN Habitat. As you can already appreciate from the list of speakers, we have representatives also that reflect upon the challenges related to the different areas of responsibility, child protection, GBV and housing land and property. Without further delay, I'll give the floor to Bernadette. Thank you so much for being with us today. Over to you. Thank you very much and thank you so much for organizing the webinar. So, I will not say it at the end, but many thanks to the Task Team on Law and Policy of the Global Protection Cluster and of course, many thanks also to my colleagues from IDLO and IRC, but also UN Habitat and Community Unit 8 and very nice to see you again, Daniel. I think on behalf of UNITR we are very happy and excited that this webinar is happening. Access to justice and legal aid for forcibly displaced people is really critical to their protection but also to prevent displacement and of course to achieve solutions. It's also fundamental for inclusion and to really support those in need with their exercises of their own rights. It really it's a very interesting area of work for protection practitioners because it cuts across many protection interventions whether it be on child protection or protection from gender-based violence or housing and land property. It really involves many actors who work on different areas of needs when it comes to the protection of forcibly displaced people in particular and in general people in need in humanitarian settings. As UNHCR we work closely with many of you a range of humanitarian development but also human rights actors on access to justice. It's work that we see interestingly linked to our community-based protection work but also to our people-centered solutions approach. We have invested considerably as UNHCR both as an agency and as the lead for the global protection cluster over the past years but we acknowledge that we need to do more and I really welcome this webinar among other initiatives that we are taking jointly with many of you. It's an area that needs investments but that also really has the potential to foster partnerships under new lights and what we look at also from our perspective is how in particular when we talk about informal justice systems how it actually increases also our work at sub-national level both with authorities at local level but also community leadership. Today's webinar will indeed focus on informal justice systems and customary solutions I really hope that practitioners will get away from the discussion with tips on better engagement with informal justice systems and that in the future we work well and that you explore the possibility of really coordinating our approach to this work I'm also hoping that you'll be able to identify ways to efficiently support existing informal justice systems that exist and I think very importantly that we all keep in mind that all these efforts are really meant primarily to make sure that people can exercise their rights as I said before and that you know it's a way for us also to reach to those who are sometimes and maybe in certain settings too often left behind in crisis settings so with these few words I pass on the button to Stefano and wish you all a very good webinar thank you very much thank you so much Bernadette Stefano thank you so much for taking the floor just a reminder to the audience for those who are still joining now we are many on the call the idea of today meeting is really to look as Bernadette suggested at three aspects that we analyse also in the series of webinars before today the three aspects are related to coordination partnership and hard to reach population for the first one has discussed previously with many of you and in particular the colleagues of the task team on law and policy we mean how to better bridge the gap between humanitarian and development assistance and creating functional and effective platforms owned at national level and with the active participation of justice seekers and justice providers with partnership we really mean looking at ways to increase the sustainability of the intervention ensuring that the ones we serve are at the centre of the justice solutions and the third aspect which I think comes very handy for the topic today is related to how to better design and implement strategies and project and initiatives able to reach the one more in need and hard to reach either geographically politically or for other reasons that the speakers will talk about without further delay Stefan over to you I'll be kind as the moderator but please try to stay within the 10-12 minutes thank you so much Stefan over to you Thank you very much Paola and thank you everyone for being here so sorry the slide I'll go quickly on the first one Paola already anticipated the focus of this webinar so what I will try to do in the next 10-12 maximum 15 minutes I promise I will stick with that is actually providing some concrete example of the different challenges and solutions that we have identified so let's start with coordination now a clear example of an effort for enhanced coordination is the development of a diverse pathways to people centre justice report which was actually adopted by a coalition made up of about 30 organizations the fact that about 30 organizations active in the CIG sector agreed on the content and recommendation of this report is already evidence of the possibility of coordinating the work of the different developmental and humanitarian actors but let's highlight a few key conclusions of this report now a first conclusion actually which will not come as a surprise and actually it's not on the screen because it's a well-known fact is that most people resolve disputes through CIG and in fragile and conflict affected settings so settings where humanitarian actors are normally involved about 80 to 90 percent of all disputes are dealt through CIG now an interesting conclusion instead of the report is that formal justice institutions often face the same challenges of CIG now it is widely pointed out that CIG systems can reflect an equal power dynamics can reproduce conservative social norms but what is less emphasized is that formal justice institutions actually are not exempt from the same flaws and are really these flaws that often push development partners to provide justice sector support to formal actors now a second conclusion is that CIG systems should not be considered as a second best option a recent study conducted in Liberia revealed that even if formal justice institution were written from all their challenges people would still rely on CIG the quicker, the cheaper the closer to justice seekers a third conclusion again this will not come as a surprise is that justice spending has been reduced significantly between 2018 and 2021 actually cut by a third there was an estimate that was done on the cost of delivering formal justice in low income countries at 13 billion dollars the interesting aspect of the report is that it recommends using customer and informal justice as a good alternative for provision of justice to basically close the justice gap given the limited available resources and then finally the report actually emphasizes the challenge which is that some developing partners are sometimes unwilling to work with CIG actors mainly because of three key reasons the potential human right violation connected with CIG systems the limited ability to showcase the impact of the aid provided to CIG and also the inability to work with non-governmental justice institutions to counter these arguments and actually propose solutions to be discussed with potential donors the report identifies multiple entry points building data and knowledge on CIG which can actually showcase the impact of the aid provided empowering justice seekers through legal aid and paralegal aid and this is something we're going to discuss today to basically limit the risk of human right violations and fostering collaboration between formal and CIG mechanisms to overcome this limitation on the ability to work only with CIG actors now I would explore some of these points in a few minutes I just wanted to mention the six recommendations emanating from the report I would not be able unfortunately to analyze them we don't have the time but just to mention them or sorry I don't know why I at the end of the presentation just give me a second so the first one is actually to adopt a justice ecosystem approach what does it mean it means recognizing the critical role of CIG in ensuring access to justice for the second recommendation is to deliver a step change approach for engagement with CIG providers which means grounding the approach on evidence that would allow to then upscale successful results the third recommendation is to empower justice seekers especially marginalized groups the fourth is to advance women and girls participation and leadership in CIG systems and we will speak about this in one of the examples in a few minutes the fifth one is to create tools and platforms for engagement among development partners to have dialogues on positive experiences challenges and lessons learned while engaging with CIG which is of course what we're doing today and the final recommendation is increasing investments in people centered CIG systems which will help close the justice gap let me now move to more concrete examples which we all know now in many countries like I'm sure many of you for instance in Somalia, Uganda and Kenya we've been actively engaging in rule of law platforms which are key mechanisms of coordination sharing experiences on the work done with both formal and informal justice institutions we recorded two main challenges here the first one is that these platforms are not always country owned and can be driven by development partners the second challenge is that they are predominantly dominated or actually attended only by developmental partners and not humanitarian actors to address these challenges of course cook their recommendations emerge the first one is promoting the establishment of national-owned rule of law platforms and we have a good example actually in Somalia where there is a rule of law platform where both IDLO and our friends from UNDP who are now here actually attended and used for coordination the second one is the inclusion of humanitarian partners working on complementary solutions now here I would say that our post-UNHCR for instance would be very important in any platform dealing with CIG given that CIG mechanisms are often used as a key venue for justice for both refugee communities and internally displaced persons and this could be a concrete way of really bridging the gap between development and humanitarian interventions and again it's up to us to actually make these changes and ensure engagement in these platforms now let me move to partnership the key element that we've been promoting in all our programs is sustainability through local ownership now as you know this is a foundation of a human rights based approach but what we've done concretely is actually co-creating projects called stakeholders and here you can see on the screen a picture which was taken in Rwanda and here we had participants from the Ministry of Justice but also representatives of the Ubuntu who are local mediators customer and informal justice actors who co-created the project and then were involved throughout product implementation to adjust solutions based on the problem-driven iterative adaptation approach we have also promoted stronger cooperation between formal and CIG actors trying to establish partnership with local organizations we've done so in Rwanda, Somalia, Sahel and if you want to know more examples we can speak about it during the Q&A now why did we decide to do this two main challenges the first one is that the support to CIG mechanism is often considered as an alternative to formal justice institution while in reality they complement one another and the second one is that some development interventions are actually implemented directly by international or national organization which prevents the establishment of sustainable justice mechanisms now to address these challenges I wanted to share with you some solutions which I think can be replicated beyond the specific context and beyond the country that I'm going to mention the first solution is actually letting national institution lead the implementation of the activities and promote venues for information sharing and accountability but for both formal and informal justice institutions now I will speak about a concrete example from Somalia but also our friends from UNDP we supported the establishment of ADR centers alternative dispute resolution centers the ADR centers basically operate under the leadership of the MOJ but are used by customer leaders to administer justice for the application of HER and Sharia and following reconciliation processes grounded on mediation and conciliation now what we realized when we were supporting this ADR centers is that in spite of this hybrid model and we will speak about hybridization in a second where CIJ actors work hand in hand with formal institution there was not really enough space for direct and substantive dialogue between formal and informal justice actors and between the two and justice seekers to address this weakness what we did was introducing justice forums now the justice forums are an interesting innovation which can be replicated they are organized on a quarterly basis to allow justice seekers and providers to discuss specific justice challenges affecting the population especially vulnerable groups and then jointly identify solutions the findings of the forum are documented by the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry then shares the findings through the rule of law platform which you see is coming back and it's nationally owned and this is evidence again that it's nationally owned the findings are used then to design interventions by both national and international stakeholders last week I was actually in Somalian Somalian specifically to do the midterm review of this program and we engage with both justice seekers and providers and it was really reassuring when they said that as a result of this process they believe that the ADR centers are not owned by the program but actually justice centers that belong to the communities now before I move to the next solution I just wanted to mention quickly the role of the ADR centers in facilitating the provision of legal aid which of course is the core of this discussion now I will be very practical and explaining how it works in a nutshell when a person comes to an ADR center in search of assistance the case is recorded by a clerk and the person is then sent to a paralegal which is stationed at the center basically sent next door and the paralegal would provide the necessary legal advice the paralegal is also supported by a center lawyer who provides more in-depth legal advice along with code representation when this is actually required and finally the center works also with community paralegals community-based paralegals who have two functions awareness raising on one side but also helping the population navigate the justice system and finally for those who cannot reach physically the ADR center is called in service which of course mitigates security risk prevents stigma but also extends the reach of the ADR center which is really relevant to the last point of discussion how to impact how to reach populations now before moving to that I promised this other solution on hybridization so promoting a hybrid approach to CIG is actually a solution to many justice challenges the hybrid approach such as the one supported in Somalia for the ADR centers where CIG actors work very closely with formal justice institution this is proving to be extremely effective why because it combines the strengths of both legal systems the affordability speed and restorative nature of the CIG mechanism of the CIG system but also the individual justice and human rights align services that is typical of formal justice systems now in all these countries of course to promote hybridization you need to first convince both parties of the advantages of the partnership what arguments can be used and these again are solutions that we would like to share that can be replicated a good argument with formal actors is the benefits of CIG mechanisms the benefits that they can bring especially when it comes to the reduction of case backlog which formal actors can then focus on more challenging cases and showcase good results to the public now for CIG the argument is different for them it is important to reassure them that the creation of procedures linkages with formal institution will not over formalize these processes now concretely in Somalia, Uganda and Kenya we supported the introduction of standard operating procedures for CIG actors the interesting part is that someone could think that there was a resistance towards this SOPs because they would over formalize informal systems but actually this was not the case informal actors appreciated the fact that formal justice systems could work with them and could actually facilitate the enforcement of their decisions moreover the SOPs introduced some processes that still made sure that CIG systems were grounded on customary law and that the mechanisms were still mediation negotiation and reconciliation and again last week in Somalia we got evidence of this when we spoke with a group of elders and they not only appreciated the SOPs but they appreciated another innovation which is the introduction of the notary service in the ADR centres which makes the decision of the centre's elders legally binding through the application of the notary CO so our overall conclusion on this solution is that it's important and actually beneficial to promote the establishment of these hybrid justice models last point how to reach population just drop of water hmm so let's start with the challenges three challenges the first one is that awareness racing activities if are not coupled combined with the expansion of justice and degrade services will lead to increased expectations at the beginning but then will translate into significant frustration among justice seekers the second one is that the role of CIG mechanism in facilitating the provision of holistic services including medical and legal aid services to GBV survivors is often underestimated and the third point is that marginalised communities are not always empowered to become justice providers the focus is more on reaching them as justice seekers so for all these three challenges we'll try and highlight solutions and this will be then the end of the presentation and when running out of time so the first innovation is the introduction of mobile area centres this is a key innovation that we introduced in Somaliland and the aim of the mobile area centres is to reach especially nomadic pastoralist communities but also people displaced by climate change so how does it work the mobile area centres are deployed based on geographic hotspots of insecurity caused by climatic conditions of course these climatic conditions basically extreme weather events have an impact on nomadic communities altering their migration routes which put them into conflict with farmers at the same time it leads to displacement and then leads to conflict between hosting communities and IDPs so these climatic hotspots are determined by the Ministry of Justice in coordination with the national environmental research and natural disaster preparedness authority you can see we're speaking about national institutions but we're dealing with justice institution on one side and institutions that are more similar to humanitarian actors on the other side three mobile area centres have already been deployed in Somaliland in hard to reach regions remote regions and in about a week they managed to solve disputes land disputes especially which had been pending with the administrative authorities for over two years which is really a remarkable result preventing conflict. Now linking back to awareness racing the services offered by the mobile area centres complement the awareness racing activities but actually provide those justice services that are needed awareness racing activities basically focus on radio through radio distribution of dissemination of messages on the functioning of the area centres and the creation of a dedicated GBV outline so you just digit 109 and you would call the area centres and they would provide the support and this is actually reachable throughout the country which leads me to the next solution which is the role of CIG when it comes to GBV. Now as you know international standards recognize that handling GBV cases for CIG mechanism is not advisable for good reasons however we believe that if we simply prohibit CIG actors from engaging with GBV survivors and we do not offer an alternative then you will just widen the justice gap. This is why we think that the introduction of area centres represents an innovative, pragmatic and people centred approach for this issue. So the aim in this case for GBV survivors is really to ensure effective referral mechanisms to formal justice and support services. So for GBV cases the centres basically act as a bridge to the hospital, shelters, psychosocial service providers, the police and the courts. How does it work concretely? Parallegals we spoke about them stationed at the centre, they receive the case and they provide survivors of GBV with advice on how to open a criminal case with the police. When required when necessary the paralegals actually accompany the person to the police and to courts ensuring that they receive all the support that they need and all the costs are covered including transportation fees and another service was recently introduced just a couple of months ago which is forensic testing. Now you know that forensic testing is actually essential for GBV cases especially for sexual violence because otherwise prosecutors and investigators will not have the evidence required to build the case against the perpetrator of SGPV and this is again an example of the role that ADR centres can play CRJ Actors can play when it comes to GBV. Last example and then I promise I will be done is the possibility of capitalising on this hybrid model and we spoke already about hybridisation to promote the role of women and vulnerable groups in the justice sector but in this case as justice providers. Now speaking again of the ADR centres the centres have actually promoted the role of women as justice providers how? Through the SOPs the SOPs they require that at least 20% of the adjudicators are female, the adjudicators are basically the elders and that a minimum of one female adjudicator participates in every adjudication panel hearing a case involving women or children. Now the interesting element is that male adjudicators again I met with them last week we spoke with them and we asked them about this innovation and initially they admitted that they resisted but then they recognised really the value of having women adjudicators in the panel especially for cases involving women. Now besides women there's been also results when it comes to other groups especially IDPs IDP leaders have been again included as members of the adjudication panel and this has encouraged a lot of IDPs to actually access the centre which is preventing conflict between IDPs and hosting communities. So now from all these examples and here I'm really closing I think we cannot conclude this presentation without reaffirming that there is clear evidence of the needs but also of the benefits of increasing investment in CIG systems and this is exactly what is called for by the final recommendation of the Deidre's pathway to people centre justice report. Thank you very much. Thank you Stefano and thank you Adlo for taking this presentation very seriously. I think you framed the forthcoming dialogue between the different speakers very well and we are all excited about reading the report that Adlo with the 28 partners if I'm not wrong issued recently on the matter. Thank you so much. So go back to the dialogue with the panelist. Thank you again for the work that you have done to prepare your presentation. We have colleagues from IRC as I mentioned at the beginning Chinook and Tito respectively a protection and rule of law and access to justice specialist and Denis and if I hope I'm pronouncing correctly your names from Uganda and Thailand. We have Daniel from community in need aid from South Sudan and we have Jonathan from and Mamadou from UN Habitat. So thank you so much for being with us today as I explained before so we will try to be as interactive as possible also to trigger questions from the audience. If you have any question to Stefano or to the panelist please feel free to put your question in writing in the chat so that hopefully we can have space at the end of the presentation and the debate to respond to them. Without further delay we will start with the first question on coordination. We will ask each speaker of the three organization to actually respond to the aspect of coordination. So we already heard from Stefano some challenges but also some proposed solution to make sure that humanitarian development, human rights and peace actors are able to join their effort in designing and implementing legal aid strategies and ensuring a coordinating engagement with informal justice systems and actors. So I'll pass the floor to you Daniel first to respond to the question on coordination. Thanks. Thank you Paula and I'm really very appreciating for meeting today Martina and all colleagues and this is a webinar as I said before I had to come back to your very grateful to Stefano also for his presentation it has been very rich and valuable and of course as he mentioned most of the things that we may be giving can be from a country context specific those can be replicated in other particular areas and I don't want to also talk about the relevant of supporting informal justice system or engaging with it but I will directly go to the concept of coordination but want to say briefly on the concept of South Sudan and of course most countries that there is a distance of legal pluralism both formal and informal justice system operating together and mostly you could see that the relevant of engaging the informal justice system is very important and we have to speak on this but to touch on the aspects of coordination and be able to come up with our best we can coordinate all these approaches what I would say that in the context I want to first present that there are challenges faced with respect to coordinating our approaches as humanitarian development human rights and peace actors on this area the first of these issues is the lack of modernization of the programs and the lack of modernization of the activities that we have is one of the challenges that we encountered in dealing with these particular issues and in the context what I was talking about that we tend to address the issue of ending child marriage and but be able to support informal justice through developing the laws, customary laws and in that context we need to integrate our approach but the other challenge that comes on the surface is the sometimes it is not clearly seen but there seems to be a competition among different actors on who will actually take credit for the activity or for a particular project and then end us coordination but as mentioned before and I think I won't retreat to what Stefano said that there is a prioritization of supporting the formal justice system at the expense of informal thinking that this is alternative but they complement each other is an issue that we see most of the actors engage in supporting formal justice system and I give an example of South Sudan content which is a very good one they have build the capacity strengthening the institutional capacity of formal justice system like equipping specialized courts GVB courts and juvenile courts but however the non-appreciation of the complementary roles of this justice system both formal and informal is an aspect that is still wanting and again because the customary laws are not written and the fluidity some of the actors seem to churn away from them because you could not easily ascertain certainty and credibility of this particular area of course and it's an important area that needs to be done but I also want to put a quote that another challenge that we faced in the coordination is inadequate or sometimes limited funding provides to support informal justice because it's not just only one aspect but also as well we need to deal with this but again that in the content of humanitarian setting most of our responses are emergencies but supporting informal justice system is not an emergency so this is an area that I think are most of the challenges that we encounter but still again there are also a good lesson that we can learn from this particular area that we have been also engaging in this area and but before I go here I need to say something, it's something that we discuss and benefit people to remember because it's something that you present it on it's a fragmentation of our coordination system as humanitarian so it's hard to come together because you have this particular cluster, you have the other sub-cluster and all this you cannot come up with one solid concrete solution on addressing a particular because priorities will always be conflicting in this particular area but the good lesson that we learn is that through a joint programming and modernization of our activities success can be attained in this area but also there is a need for a comprehensive understanding and analysis of informal justice system it adds so many facets that need to be understood, it's something that you cannot do within an emergency contact, you may not be able to you will be able to miss out so many things we also learn that there is a need to integrate and I also need to also appreciate Benedict is an area also to be presented in the GPC conference, we need to also integrate the centrality of protection in all our interventions as far as this supporting the justice contact is concerned and then we also learn and listen which is also important that conducting inter-agency trainings on complementarity roles of humanitarian development and peace actors is also important because we'll come to one solid understanding and say okay this particular area these are the needs, these are the gaps that we can be able to support these are lessons that we get from that but also good practices there have also been in the contact of South Sudan in the cluster coordination meeting notwithstanding what I had said that addresses issues cross-cutting issues such as child marriages and this brings together humanitarian development actors in supporting informal justice and be able to identify okay these are the gaps, these are the challenges that we can be able to program but again also what is also important is that collaborating with the authority I don't hear any more I think we lost Daniel I think we lost Daniel yes let me let's just wait one minute in case he managed to reconnect otherwise we can continue with the next speaker and maybe he can catch up during the next series of questions I think he's not connected so if it's okay if it's okay with you I'll pass the floor to I think we lost him and waiting for Daniel to reconnect I'll pose the same question on coordination to our IRC colleagues if I understand correctly is Denis from Uganda over to you Denis thank you so much and thank you everyone like already mentioned I'm Denis I look from Uganda I will be able to run through our thoughts on coordination with specific focus on one of our projects around strengthening integrated systems to accelerate gender youth and child justice particularly looking at challenges some of the good practices and also the lessons learned as my colleague Tito will run through the slides next so just heading straight to some of the challenges that we are able to pull out like I've mentioned specifically to what we have been able to do we see quite an aspect of limited understanding of the complementary role between the informal justice actors and then the formal justice actors for instance we see informal justice actors being seen or considered inferior by the formal justice actors and this is normally mainly because their role within the access to justice is somehow not very clear to everyone we also see the limited trust in the formal justice system by the dispersed communities quite because of a number of things relating to costs for example in access to justice the backlog of cases that we see within the formal justice system some of the complexity and of course there has been instances of corruption tendencies as well as you know some other issues around the geographical reach of the formal justice institutions for instance if I make reference to one of the rapid leads assessment that we did undertake under the same project about 80% of the respondents in the selected with the settlements prefer to have their matters reported and heard by the formal justice actors instead of the formal justice actors this basically presents where we are coming from in terms of the limited trust we have also seen the different sanctions regimes where we are talking about the adversarial and punitive versus the restorative and reparative sanctions regimes for example if I have to present that in the Taos Sudanese refugee community when someone has been assaulted and for example wounded many of these cultures demand that the blood that has been spilled for now however the criminal law in Uganda is punitive and prescribes for example a custodial sentence for such offenses and may not be able to meet such demands as you know could be advanced by the refugee communities so finding a sort of a middle ground and meeting the justice needs of the clients to the satisfaction is quite usually a challenge in such instances we have also seen a challenge around mandate definition particularly where we see the informal justice systems handle cases beyond what they are supposed to handle we know that usually some of their mandate is limited to simple you know civil cases like the land disputes the aspects of debt claims and maybe simple family disputes of civil nature however we find and tend to see that they often handle criminal cases that may be in line with defilement, domestic violence which is actually punishable by the law of the country the other challenge which is probably the last of this is the information and data asymmetry which is coupled by the lack of interoperable or standardized case and information management tools and so this again from our perspective do challenge us in identifying the gaps that we basically need to provide in terms of supporting case management and in other instances of the capacity building opportunities that presents itself now amidst all these challenges we can still be able to talk on some of the good practices Tito if you can look to the next slide we still talk of some of the good practices thank you we have seen the integration of humanitarian justice development and the peace as well as the security priorities in the national development plan of the country but also being able to formulate those corresponding refugee specific response plans on the different sectors of protection education health as well as livelihood to help guide the implementation as we interact with the refugee and affected communities we've been able to undertake the multi agency legal needs analysis and this basically is for a shared understanding of the justice needs but also being able to identify the service gaps and services seeking behaviors of the crisis affected population this in turn helps us to you know inform the collective operational as well as the strategic programming aspects the other key good practice that we see happening is in line with the national level national and thematic level interagency coordination on justice law and refugee on refugee protection matters so again this the secretariat for example has dedicated technical advisers where if I talk about the secretariat I'm referring to the justice law and other secretariat of the country that has in place dedicated technical advisers for both the justice and more justice approaches with a particular focus on enhancing access to justice for refugee and house communities while again at the thematic protection working group level where we see different sectors as just GBV legal community protection as well as the child protection at the settlement level but also coming at the district coordination level where this group working group bring together different agency including the UNHCR including the government ministry responsible for refugees local government police prisons and they like to be able to continuously map out the justice needs and develop collective solutions to some of the issues that would be identified working with informal and formal justice actors as well as the horse and communities to develop an access to justice handbook for refugees and asylum seekers so we've seen ourselves develop this due to a number of issues that have been identified limited knowledge both within the institutions but then also with the people we work with to have a kind of common understanding just to mention this has been widely taken out of dissemination at the different levels at the district ministry specific the other good practice that we can speak to is on the automation and standardization of the justice information and case management processes this has really gone a long way to enhance coordination and this aggregation of the justice data sets in terms of the different information that is required to another effective programming and response mechanisms lastly speaking to the promoting or the promotion of the representation and participation of the formal justice actors and refugees on the district coordination committees is generally referred to as the DCC these are platforms that bring together the formal justice institutions that convene on a monthly basis to consider emerging human rights and administration of justice issues at all levels whether the settlement at the district at the institution best level for example the prisons the police and the like to deliberate and get appropriate ways towards response of this so amidst all this we pick some free to focus learnings for ourselves that it is important a conducive national policy and legal framework is important to foster structured and sustainable collaboration of these various institutions is really handled in that appropriate way we also see that it is important to you know enhance or enable definition and assignment of stakeholder roles like already mentioned the role definition is very key and this should be further strengthened with a clear refer and from the mental justice framework which is central for collaboration aspects the other key area of learning that we see is an aspect of standardization around information and case management tools for example the formal system have their own process then the informal actors really do this also not have that so being able to come together to ensure this standardization is very clear to foster referrals and enhance information sharing for the two different systems to interact jointly as and when and lastly at this particular moment is the aspect of promotion of participatory inclusive justice analysis that helps to facilitate shared understanding of justice needs and also the appropriate responses across the formal and formal actors which of course makes collaboration much easier coordination much easier and a lot of things working together because there would be communication of all these aspects so just about slides of some of the pictures victorious to this event with yeah so this is just an example of the joint capacity building session that brought together the formal and formal actors in one of the three locations under the same project an example of the hybrid decision session like I did mention bringing together both the formal and the informal justice actors to be able to deliberate on issues and rights that affects the component. Thank you so much. Thanks Deni for this very interesting contribution from Uganda I can see Daniel is back with us if it's okay with you Daniel I'll give you the floor afterwards on the second question and you can finalize the answer to the first question. Jonathan over to you from UN Habitat with some reflections on housing, land and property rights and how to use informal justice system to resolve HLP disputes before giving you the floor just being aware of the time if you can stick to the five seven minutes so that we can have a section on question answers. Thank you so much. Thank you Jonathan over to you. Thanks Paola. I'll be as brief as I can so my name just for an introduction my name is Jonathan I work for UN Habitat within the land housing and shelter section and I work for one of our flagship programs which is the Global Land Tool Network. So on the question of coordination we well in addressing legal aid and justice needs in humanitarian settings the actors with whom we work with let it be at the national level, sub national level, local level and at the community level have drawn really valuable insights from the Global Land Tool Network work specifically the tools that Jel Tien have developed on land and conflicts and these tools were implemented particularly in the Democratic Republic of Congo in the DRC particularly in the eastern region of the country that has been plagued by wars and also in Uganda Jel Tien's initiatives within that sphere works on capacity building on land governance and land management in conflict sensitive contexts and so we provide a holistic approach to alternative dispute resolution mechanisms that are within the work of supporting local communities in mapping developing the land information systems to resolve the land conflicts at hands that already exist and identify within the mapping process other conflicts that emerged during the mapping processes at the local community and so we develop these institutional frameworks at the local level through the mapping process and within these mapping processes we established within those institutional developed alternative dispute resolution committees that would then from the maps through mediation find solutions to disputes that arise and how we start is that we first understand the context understanding the context is really crucial for us for humanitarian actors when they want to address coordinated engagement with informal justice systems and to achieve that Jel Tien conducts research and analysis of existing informal justice systems that already exist that are already set up by communities and or other humanitarian or development actors our intervention for example in DRSC and also in Uganda in the areas marked by sustained land conflicts is that we that the tools that we implement there are then adapted to the context and are then anchored in the existing mechanisms that already exist and so we strengthen these existing informal justice mechanisms at the community at the local level we also work on inter-agency collaboration and so international and local organizations working in DRSC and Uganda have recognized really the importance of resolving land governance issues for resolving deep-rooted conflicts by implementing coordinated legal aid interventions and this collaboration involves number of organizations local implementing partners etc etc to share the expertise and ensure a realistic approach to legal aid and justice provision within those conflict sensitive settings GLTN also focuses on knowledge sharing which is a critical role by conducting research as I said on land and conflict sensitivity issues to ensure that planned initiatives by governments development partners in relation to developing land administration take into consideration the conflict sensitivity parts to pave the way for better opportunities for inclusion peace and coexistence in Uganda GLTN is currently supporting the government to develop guidelines for alternative dispute resolution in customary settings and in the DRSC we've developed tools and we've implemented those tools to support the existing informal justice mechanisms to support them in mediation and setting up land mediation commissions in terms of challenges well actors working in this thematic for example in the DRSC often want to reinvent the wheel of what was previously done and therefore the sustainability of what was achieved in a particular area of intervention becomes weak and this is particularly true when mediation commissions then are set in place the financing of a project ends and then after that the land mediation commissions cannot have difficulties in continuing the work in addition as a challenge the ADR committees as well as in the DRSC and in Uganda we've noted that they are not incorporated within the legal and policy framework and therefore well limiting the adaptation into the you know into the formal structures this also makes the decision of the ADR committees not legally binding and more is needed then therefore with the national actors and institutions to progressively build cohesive justice system where formal and informal traditional justice mechanisms do not exist in isolation from each other that are rather connected to each other and this is really a classical gap that could be bridge and even we see in the developed countries we're going into that direction and that's what we're trying to do also within the land information systems that we develop is to bring the local registration into the national registry and that then has to connect when there are conflicts that has to connect also with the formal justice and so at GLTEN we're very busy in those debates and in developing these mechanisms that really connect the informal to the formal and creating a continuum thank you thank you Jonathan very rich in inputs so Daniel welcome back and over to you for a question on partnership and local ownership I'll just ask you to stick to the five minutes so that we will have time for questions and answer thank you so much good challenges on partnership thanks thank you so much Paula and colleagues I really apologize for the internet challenge but I want also to begin from here is an aspect of a challenge to us we are working on supporting informal justice system as I said earlier that by harmonizing the national and international standards on ending child marriage one of the particular things that we're working on with the partners is reviewing one of the customary laws we do not we do a silence on the aspect of marriageable age which is a risk factor to cases of child marriage but also developing one of the customary laws in particular area in South Sudan but I want to say beginning with this partnership we've been with it with LWF and other partners LWF being a development actor in that case and with other partners but I just said the internet issue on the issue of developing a customary law a particular community that the internet has frustrated us even today we have not worked on the validation workshop because sending emails is another challenge on the other side so let me begin from there so that we could move as far as some challenges key lessons and then good practices we still find to ensure that this particular sector is sustainable and relevant in this changing society aside from the challenge of what I mentioned is that sometimes there's a lack of you see partners probably this internal organization together with the national organization there's sometime a lack of content knowledge from the international actors and this affects the partnership and actually the quality of the service at particular points of course as I will note the important but also different programming intervention priorities between the partners also sometimes affects the partnership in supporting the informal justice and we find that one wants to move forward the other one also has another pressing priorities and you see in timing you may not move forward at the same time but also different programming cycles you have a project you have received a funding and the project is running for one year and that begins maybe in September the project of the other partner begins in another period so you come to the point that at certain points you're not able to compelate and compliment your activities together in supporting informal justice system like in the context I've given in supporting the development of customary law building the capacity and sprinting the institutional capacity of this you see moving at different time could not be able to to move but there are also key lessons learned in respect to what I've said there have been knowledge as a colleague from the DRC and Uganda context also presented that there's knowledge on the front and sharing of the piece by the partners there could be an area that one is good at and they share the local content is shared by the national and then the aspect of the content comes from the rich experience of the international organization and which I think is a good area in working with this particular sector and in supporting it also good practices as I mentioned one of the what advocacy is ending and then through as harmonizing the customary laws that we were able to sign a random understanding with the local authorities once on ending child marriage with the minister of justice minister of gender child and sexual welfare and also with the judiciary in supporting the informal justice but also in the inclusion of gender inclusivity in the informal justice with my colleague also mentioned I don't want to over emphasize this we also look at another good practices about the conduct of intersectional needs with different actors together and then also in supporting informal justice in finding those areas that affect them while we do our work and also we have had cases of joint advocacy which have been a very important area seen with some organization like LAM we have been together and being vocal is picking on the same particular aspect of child marriage together and also on women to justice and also be able to access natural resources another area that we saw that was a good practice is hiring legal consultants who will be able to review this particular customary laws and align them with international international legal system so it's particular good practice that we found although there are those challenges we saw that there are opportunities of still partnership and still collaborating together be able to support and strengthen the informal justice system and I believe that will work over to you Paola Thank you, thank you Daniel very practical tips for replication in other context over to you Chinook on some reflections around Cameroon experience with women rights thank you so much Hi everyone thank you very much for the time I want to jump directly into my presentation I want to share my screen and I would like to share an audio I see someone sharing screen already because we have made a little video and I think it gives us a please could you tell me if you can hear the sound I'm trying to hear can you hear yes we can okay it's because it's in my hand if we can I will I will give up on that not very tech heavy can you hear Chinook we had the sound yes we had it initially now we can't not anymore unfortunately we can't hear it but maybe you can you can share it in the chat and then we can look at it afterwards okay I'll give up on that then too bad the idea was to make it a bit more different it's okay I'll jump to my presentation Tito you want to share the screen maybe it's okay let me share the screen why do we do this tech thing let me introduce myself so my name is Chinook Terrier I'm a base in Geneva working for IOC and I support West Africa and Central Africa in the protection of workflow before I begin I really want to thank you for the time and also thank you for the presentation many presentation particularly the first one with the report and the recommendation resonate a lot in what we are trying to what we are trying to do and we are trying to although in this example I see several recommendations that could actually meet with this presentation that I want to to do I have noted the empowering justice seeker to become justice providers I think that's really resonate and is what we are trying to do specifically in this example advanced participation of marginalized group create tools and approaches I think that's really where we try to stand and obviously working with informal justice more and not taking as a second best option but as primary actors particularly know how to reach in remote areas so that's one of the example of how we try to do that so it was a program we have called it's in Cameroon in front of Cameroon it's a women community paralegal why we have created this program yes you can go to them next slide so the program was justified by different things needs first of course we want to be needs driven so we had activities there we had a legal team working specifically on documentation and they came up with needs particularly for women accessing to land it was a particular legal needs identified GBV also is a huge gap that we always see like access to legal for GBV in remote areas when there is only informal justice so that was also the context we saw a lot of we were very remote no legal partners we won't know and major use of traditional customary and traditional law by everyone and by choice also but also because there is no access to legal justice anyway to formal justice then the program set up because we were already there we knew the we knew the community or GBV and protection programming we have legal programming and we also have map we already tried in terms of partnership to find a partner would be there we knew the community and there were literally no partners like no legal actors even in the far away cities there were like maybe one lawyer who couldn't move so we had to find a solution and also we wanted to do that because it justified by our values and vision we really wanted to support community driven community on the approach also recognizing the place of marginalized group and supporting women's voice et cetera and supportive maybe also while we try to have of the first outcome legal more access to legal aid legal knowledge et cetera also try to support a more transformative agenda around shifting social norms fortunately for legal thematic with maybe a bit taboo like GBV and an HLP access to land for women so that was one of the purpose next slide so first how did we how did we build that next slide let's just do some picture so we had to select thematic we had to select the paralegal women first for the thematic we choose free thematic we didn't want to do too many because then it's a long training legal training to do but we wanted to be as useful to respond to the needs so first we choose access to documentation because it was a need for everyone and because also for this shifting thing that we want we don't want we want to shift the idea that women talk to women and women are here to support women's problem women can also talk for everyone and can support everyone and so that's why we wanted to do the access to documentation to make sure that they can talk also to men they can talk also and they seen as they're not seen as women they're seen as expert paralegal in their community who can support anyone around those legal thematic also it's documentation less sensitive thematic and we were really around do no harm approach risk management so we wanted to take a phasing approach so that's why access to documentation and then we went to HLP for women because it was as I said one of the key issue identified it's a thematic as we know that's mainly even even through the formal law identified as a topic managed by traditional and customary law so that's make even more sense to work with the informal justice and with the community around informal law to better dive through the systems that they know better than we do and then the GBV thematic was because we had we knew the GBV was there there was a lot of GBV issues we had the team there the GBV team to work with and also because and that resonates again as the first presentation because we we see that there is sometimes assumption that informal law will have to be harmful in formal law but when we did an in-depth legal analysis we saw that formal law is also harmful so what do we do so let's work with we want to be survivor centers they want to work in this environment with those systems so that's what we choose to do next slide after the thematic we had to select as I said no one had a legal background so we choose women that had some experience in GBV because that's one of the most sensitive thematic and we just took as women we try to have a minimum literacy level speak French also to have this link with the formal justice for example because there is this language bias and and we developed the world manual and the world training to take them from the point zero where they are in terms of legal knowledge I'm not judging on anything else and training them to become a prior legal to know skills and competencies so from the most easy one awareness sensitization door to door etc to the most complex mediation legal assistance etc and that's so the manual has been developed in terms of phase and in terms of level of difficulty and we provide this training which time of course there is a lot this manual was give back so it was developed by a consultant who came and really helped us to do the whole heavy work particularly on the low you know we had to do an in-depth legal analysis on all of this matter to know what do we say for GBV, for HLP what is harmful, what's not and how we orient and we guide people what do we and it was in a TOT format obviously because we couldn't so we were doing that with a consultant to train our staff our IOC staff to go train the prior legal in every villages next slide so then what was so quickly just to go under the results, success and challenges of this next slide here you can see a picture of the program when we went there for the visit so legal awareness was phase one the first thing we started with so it was where we had the most result we had also referrals particularly for and that's remain one of our challenges we're not a link with formal justice because they are still far away so the system we have so far is referral to our team IOC who will then provide who has an MOU for representation with a lawyer in city etc so we still do the link and that's one of the things we want to think for the future and how to link them directly we had legal assistance legal counseling whether the picture you saw was actually this woman going to the administrative going to help families not only women but also men to access their documentation to talk to the administration for them when there is language barrier so very so becoming this link between the systems and the justice seekers and finally and that's where we are really impressed it was mediation we didn't think so it was the last level you know when there was a lot of social norms around women who cannot talk in front of men particularly not in terms of leadership and in front of authorities and it was part of our risk management at the beginning we identify and we talk to those women to not identify the risk for them but ask them what they wanted to do and they were like we need to have the support of the authority and the leadership so that's where we started as ISE we really tried to support them so the authorities, the local chiefs the leaders we understand what they're doing and what support they're doing and we are at the point where now they request them more and they're asking for them a lot of support they're working together with the traditional justice actor the Wakil there as they call them we'll call them when there is a need for support for mediation and not only for women again so that's one of the one of the big achievement for us than we have and of course we are trying to you know it's also one of the big impact a direct result but it's also supporting women voice you know listening towards women is very has been for me very when they say that they've become a role model in their village like before that they didn't see women as able to speak in front of men or even in front of leadership or to be those kind of matters so we do see transformative things happening next slide and as always we also see a lot of challenges you know it's not always so easy so we're trying that's why we are here in Parnachi because we feel that our ambition we are not there yet but our ambition is to find this new way to our localization we don't want to see localization as only having a local partner it goes that's localization we want to see like okay there is no partner how you bring up was community driven was community people who know better informal system than us to bring this knowledge and this expertise to better outcome and to better access to justice so now we want to move to the next step with them to not only have this tech technical legal training but add this admin budget etc level with other sector it won't be me obviously but to support budgeting organizing etc and help them build their own organization so they become a partner there for future other actors who might want to to work with them I have listed many other challenges that they face it's an hybrid approach because it's you know training them takes a long time we're trying to have phase approach so we can start immediately but so it's more like starting the program looks more like development phasing but then we work in conflict and we work in a conflict and humanitarian area so we need also to have this possibility to be flexible and to work on this conflict and humanitarian thematic there is a lot of themself when I listen to them and the paralegals they still have to work towards behavior change there is good example but there is also many good examples it's not working well everywhere it's working in progress to be accepted and to understand that to be accepted in the world and in the community everywhere in all villages so that's one of the few things I hope I'm in the time and I think I'm good thank you thank you Chinook and it would be great if you could share the link in the video in the chat because it was working on my computer so it would be good for everybody to just look at it and thank you so much for the input especially on looking at justice seekers not just as rights holders and beneficiaries but actually to agents of change in the building of true and real local partnership so over to you Jonathan on the question of partnership and in particular on housing and property rights again from UN habitat perspective thanks thank you Paula on that question our work on the thematic of supporting the informal justice systems and land management has been and HLP has been advanced to through partnerships aligning with first of all the GLTN tools and its approaches and the implementation of these tools in the country in DRC for example we've collaborated with the local partner and the international security and stabilization support strategy which is a prime example of how we helped the land so the land administration getting the tools necessary for strengthening dispute mechanisms particularly showcasing the importance of strengthening the informal justice systems and such partnerships really have contributed to effective legal aid strategies and for Uganda for example partnership with the government with the justice law has been very key in the implementation sustainability of these informal justice systems there and then their mechanisms it is important to note however that there is a strong importance in collaborating with emergency and development actors in the justice system to address HLP issues and to work better together between the emergency and development actors from an analysis point of view conceptualization of different approaches and also the way and working together in the implementation of working then alongside what we call the humanitarian development nexus JLTN sees that many of the international and local organizations in the countries that we work have worked have worked or that have worked indirectly with us have used these approaches that we advocate and then adapting them to the realities in their specific context and so how we do that is we really try and get local ownership in the processes that we advocate and that's really involving different stakeholders, governments, local community religious leaders community leaders, customary traditional authorities giving them the capacities in developing in implementing ADR mechanisms in mediating between the different actors and then finding ensure and then finding solutions to conflicts if it's conflicts on boundaries or if it's conflict for example we see the case of conflicts between national parks and the local community on where the border where the border lies and so it has environmental challenges and aspects that need to be considered but all of that really goes into developing the capacities at the local level and making sure that the tools that have been developed are transferred then at the local level and fit the purpose and the context of where it is needed thanks thank you Jonathan so we arrived to the third and last question of the panel today so back to Daniel on weather and how to best engage with informal justice systems and actors to reach the one most in need but also in some context hard to reach and again when we mean hard to reach with John just mean geographically but for a number of reasons so wonderful to have your reflection Daniel on challenges and good practices again we just bear with me for the time so that we can also answer to the question that colleagues have already shared in the chat, thanks thank you Paula and indeed you writes the issue of hard to reach is not about geographical limitations it also includes other factors and in the context of what we are doing at SINNA and presenting South Sudan in that case in advocating for ending child marriage through developing through reviewing or developing customary laws and policies there are challenges that we encountered as also humanitarian actors and those challenges yes of course range from geographical, political and also perception so and then perception so it's something that we need to tax recently when we were working on ending child marriage and especially in one area in South Sudan one of the states we were the minister of gender, child and social welfare was impressed with the work of humanitarian and he recommended that we should be able to review other customary laws be able to ensure that we come up with laws that are nice especially on setting the marriageable age but we encountered challenges that what I want to drive this particular context one is the the conflict within the country that make other areas not be assessed and also because of the climate induced factors such as flooding which is also geographical but also other challenges or polarization of the communities in terms of the other political device also come in and make it hard to read those particular areas and also there is a particular thing that I want to say about the perception there is also a misinformation or misunderstanding about the concept of human rights in those particular areas so their understanding is that any harmonization of the laws will erode their long-cherished customs and practices and be able to bring in the aspect of human rights to them that human rights is only human rights I don't know why they understand it that way human rights is human rights and you could see the cultural barriers and all these long-cherished practices be able to prevent supporting this particular informal justice system so we were a bit constrained in moving forward but we still believe that there were also opportunities that we explored to be able to also reach one of those things is collaborating with with the local government authorities in reaching be able to sign the memorandum as I mentioned earlier on and we are moving forward to us to reach those particular areas but also also be able to conduct trainings in ensuring that in shifting minds and perspectives about the work of this but to be able to let them understand that it's about supporting strengthening but not eroding their work so it's about supporting because majority of the South Sudanese actually resorts to informal justice system and because in our context and in our legal system most of marriage and family issues are addressed at the customary courts and which become important and these customary courts are all of our distributed in the areas that cannot easily be reached either because of perception because of political illnesses or because of the tropical limitations or road networks but we are moving forward another thing that we also do which we noted from our colleagues from IDLO before that we also support the ADR mechanisms that are already in place be able to ensure that they strengthen they are trained but I also note another challenge is sustainability of this mechanism because when the project ends they cannot continue with their activities because there's no motivation from that site and which again makes it hard to reach area again because they will not continue for a long period of time and this is where we need to craft strategies plans and our designs to come up and address this particular issue but this is where we are and we are moving forward I hope by next year we should be able to reach particular areas and be able to develop more customary laws review them and align them with national laws ending child marriage gender inclusivity in the informal justice system where we are working on it and other areas that we may identify over to you Paola I've been too speedy because of also time but I think that's great thank you. Thank you, thank you Daniel. Over to IRC colleagues Chakrid I hope I'm pronouncing well your name from Thailand on a partnership welcome and over to you thanks. Hi. Do you want me to present? Yes please. Okay so maybe I think what I was going to talk this about over there might touch upon the different questions including for the partnership and how to reach people. So this is example of the IRC Thailand implementing the legal assistance center in the refugee camp in Thailand. So while waiting for the PowerPoint I just want to give you like the a bit of the context like the work that we are doing here is for the people from Myanmar who crossed who are in the refugee camps in Thailand is almost like 20 or 30 years and also the new arrivals of the people who crossed from Myanmar to seek support to seek safety in Thailand from the current conflict in Thailand. So now we are talking about provide access to justice for the in Thailand for the people who came from the ethnic justice system from Myanmar's come to Thailand. Yeah so and I think the way that I think the simple we are doing for for that is just I would like to talk about like maybe like three step that we are doing. So the first one is like we bring justice system into the refugee camps and the second that we find a way to gain acceptance and the third one is about the set up the system and the people yeah so Ditto you can go to the next slide. Yeah so I think from this step is to address the challenge at the beginning is like when people come from the from Myanmar to Thailand the first challenge is they are not familiar that is the title sorry like they are limited trust and not familiar with the host country justice system in this case is like with the Thai justice system plus the experience of them that way they were like corrupt harass by the Thai authority that also make them not trust and not feel comfortable to access to the Thai justice system and also with the their legal status on the undocumented peoples particularly who living outside the refugee camp which is they also have like the barrier to you know travel to get access to the police stations or some like legal center outside the camp because they can be arrested as the illegal person anytime and when they are the refugee for the refugee camp they also have no permission to leave outside camp where all the support on the access justice is outside the refugee camp and then with the control from the authority when they see like the legal rights is may harm or impact to the to the national security so when we start introduce this approach it's also like a lot of control and a lot of questions from the authority next slide please and I think the good practice that I would like to share here is like when I say bring justice system into the camp in order for people to to get that when they cannot leave camp to get the support this is the work that we do like how we can facilitate the case that need to go to the Thai justice system which is more like the serious crime that cannot handle within the camp system and how the system that can mitigate for the minor crime that we can manage by the justice system which is we need to gain acceptance from the authority in term of accept that like we can bring people who have document to see the police or we can set the system the mediation system the group conference for the refugee camp by lead by the refugee people so I think at this point it's very important to get that acceptance in order to get the anti poise and the ownership from the refugee people particularly in case that the minor crime that we manage in the refugee camps and for set up the system so I think this the way like we work on like develop the document called the mediation and dispute resolution guideline which is like the guideline that the book that talk about what is the definitions of each crime but it's a procedure what is the role and responsibility because on this and implement this guideline in all the camp the good practice from doing this is like we using the community approach bring them into the developments of this bring in waste on the capacity building for the refugees community volunteers I think additional from like all colleagues talk about the capacity building one approach that we work in Thailand is like we bring in the people from universities or from the formal justice system to provide a training so additional from the knowledge it's also about the recognition of the people who receive the training because even along the way we get permission to do this but the Thai authority also you know washing a lot like how this process look like is there anything will harm to the Thai justice system so like bring in this also like build the coordination build trust that is the main thing that we aim is like the recognition to the people who play this role particularly in the mediation center that we support in the refugee camp the advocate to the Thai authority is is very important and I think one of the key thing I want to share is like the message around what is the benefit of doing this to the host communities you know like when we ask people we can have people who are not Thai who are refugee access to this or develop the informal process for them to manage their conflict in the camp what is the benefit for the host community and also balancing the community practice and the international standard one example is like in the community practice the adultery is the serious crime visit you have to be imprisoned but in the Thai law adultery is the minor crime so when we bring in something like chain it's really important to like communicate properly to them on what benefit on that and then what is the step of change that we thinking that we can see for that and also for them to like start adjust to the new thing and also when to you know break through the limitations of access to develop the diversity option for the access it's also very important so you know have a community volunteer in the refugee camp near the people at the village level as a household level also one option that we working on that using cash for protection support the legal assistant is also one thing like make it fast for the services reached into the reach into the the people and also the work closely with the local organization who can get accept you know get trust from the communities also very key key point for all the good practice next slide please and yeah I think the key lesson learned that I would say is the long term funding is very critical to make sure the continuation in the success because that is not only just like make a service there but it's how to work about the perception and the system strengthening so you need you know a period of time to work on that so in ISC Thailand we luckily to get on the first date like five year funding which is we can make this system in place integration to health services to the livelihood or the women protection program is effective in the way that that all service is always the service that the legal need disclose there and then can be the entry point that they know how to refer that to the legal centers so and then knowing contact you know I would say like gain acceptance from the community is very important or the ethnic leaders so I think we need to know what is the key concern that we can use as the attraction point that they can accept the change that we going to to work on that and also like balance the powers between you know the authority between the local leaders to the people so I think this is also one thing like through more communication find the common point that what is the benefit of having the informal services system in the place that people have no solution for that it is very important and it's also taking time for that one so I think I will stop there and then back to you thank you so much thank you thank you so much Chakrid and Jonathan I don't know there are several questions in the chat and I see that there are just a few minutes left if it's okay with you I would launch the the questions as well and then feel free to answer some of them and maybe linking it to the last point on hard to reach does it work for you Jonathan yeah yeah absolutely we can do that thanks so there is a question from a colleague from Hill at the Institute for International Law about technology I don't know Stefano sorry for making you a spontaneous volunteer but maybe you could reflect about how to use elaborate technology to accelerate or address some of these challenges and what opportunities look like while you think about the answer there is a question to Daniel I don't know if you can see it in the chat what is your organization doing in regards to the normative legal framework review by the law review commission and and also in relation to the discriminatory definition of rape excluding marital rape address through the customer address well I guess you are more expert than me on the legislative framework in regards to this disposition of the law so Stefano over to you for the first question and then Daniel and then we'll take the other questions in the chat thanks thank you Bauda I'll try to be quick I see we don't have a lot of time so I already spoke about a few areas few ways technology can be used it needs to be really focused on the context so there are cases and actually locations where for instance radio is the best way to reach the local population there is of course now proliferation on the use of smartphones and smartphones can be used both for training exercises for instance this is done I know in Rwanda where they use training exercises but they can actually access quickly through their smartphones and if they're looking for something they can just go there and search for the information but on the other hand there are other countries I can remember exactly where now it would come back to mind where smartphones are used also by justice seekers when they need to search for something so yes you can get legal advice from paralegals and legal providers but sometimes it's just a question of putting in your information and basically searching for what you want there is now more modern information we know artificial intelligence is also taking step and could actually provide some kind of answers and this is a bit an ongoing discussion on how to use artificial intelligence also in justice processes there are a lot of discussions for instance in India on how to use artificial intelligence in the justice system but since we don't have time I'll stop there and then we will have a broader discussion one other day. Over to you Paula. Thank you, thank you Stefano for the answer for being brief Daniel over to you and then I see that we have hands raised from the audience so I give you the floor in a minute after Daniel, thanks Daniel. Thank you so much Paula and thank you Elijah for your question what Sinai is doing on reviewing the number two framework and that is coming with this time of constitutional development in South Sudan we're moving to permanent constitution and also reviewing other laws as part of the implementing the agreements I would say that South Sudan Sinai participation is not so much directly in the law commission because of other factors constraints but however we also share our reviews through the civil society networks and also in our coordination meetings and of course we believe this our reference from civil society networks are able to attend the law commission reviews conferences and sitting so they also share the same thing so that is what we do with particular area on normative framework but particularly on the second questions about what also with respect to discriminatory definitions such as the rape yes of course I understand this and it's an area that we also in the Penal Code Act as to Maritola and also that the definition of the rape in South Sudan also tends to include development which actually to be a standalone so it is a bit obfuscates the understanding but this is what we're doing Sinai we review this particular law and see okay the question that comes from there which I think is patina and also is as we seek to harmonize the customary laws with national laws on addressing child marriage issues, issues of gender inequalities but what about where we find that the national law is also discriminatory in nature that is I think where the problem comes our approach is too prong that's where we identify that the customary law articulates and very correct on a particular position we don't seek to harmonize with the wrong position of national laws so what we do is to move what is the national standards or human rights standards on this particular area and then we engage in discussion with them so that they have understanding the national law may be wrong on such definition but the national standard is correct also this definition also building on that own areas of strength under the customary laws and I want also to note that we have also reviewed so many but we haven't shared with them because we still lobby for funds to be able to implement other areas and organize more workshops and training and consent meetings on this so this is particularly what we do in that area we do not take the wrong position in the national law to address the other one we better use the national standards on that thank you over to you Paula thank you Daniel thank you for the question and for clarifying so I'll give you the floor very quickly to Josephine first and then Barbara for the two questions if you can introduce yourself and also address the question to the speaker, thanks thank you so much my name is Josephine Chandiru drama I work with Steward women in South Sudan I am the chair of the rule of law technical reference group of the GBV era in Cuba and I see some members of the rule of law technical reference group here in the meeting Jackson Organo Betty Chan from UN Women I see Merlin from the GBV era representing IRC and I also see Betty I see Doris Moga from the UN Miss rule of law I want to just appreciate the presenters and panelists this afternoon for their presentation and for Daniel for well representing South Sudan I think I did participate in the report or the findings of the diverse pathways report that is being presented here and I think everything that we shared with you is well articulated in the report and then I want to really share on the issue of coordination since I am the coordinator for the rule of law the issue of fragmentation of coordination system in South Sudan I totally agree with Daniel on that and I want to say that we have the UNDP rule of law forum that meets monthly and then we have the rule of law technical reference group of the GBV era those are two forums that meet monthly and you find the one for the UNDP as the government institutions while the one for the GBV era does not include government institutions this is because the one for GBV era is chaired by a national organization that might be undermined or looked as a small organization while the one for the UNDP has all those higher level partners but in both forums or spaces there are no customary or informal justice actors participating unless they are called on occasions to specifically justify certain areas so that is something that I wanted to put clearly in terms of the coordination but I do agree that the informal justice actors are doing amazing work like we work with them as steward women we do what is called the family court because according to the local government act their role is to have family disputes so the ones that we work with we call them the family courts and out of nine members we ensure that three of them are women so this forms about 33% of them being as women and they do a lot of referrals as some of your report notes but what we have been battling with is should these informal justice actors be part of the GBV referral pathway because currently they are not part of the GBV referral pathway so this is a question I've asked to the GBV or Ara of course they said no because of the they can't follow the SOPs but this is something that we should continue conversing on because the informal justice actors are doing really amazing work and then I want to just add something on the issue of the marital rep as Daniel noted the marital rep is stipulated in the panel called act and the work that we are doing currently on this easy we have done a position paper to criminalize marital rep and this position paper has been submitted to the some law reform commission we are waiting for it to make decision on that but as we wait on that we also have the anti-GBV bill that is in the pipeline and it has been submitted to the Ministry of Justice the anti-GBV bill has also already criminalized the marital rep whichever comes first from the law reform commission or from the Ministry of Justice we are looking forward to ensuring that marital rep is criminalized in South Sudan and this is part of the implementation of the Maputo protocol for upholding the rights of women in Africa where South Sudan is also really very inclusive so we are trying to ensure that by the time the permanent constitution comes into play some of these rights violations are put right by the permanent constitution so this is where I wanted to make my intervention thank you for the opportunity thank you thank you Josephine very good points on coordination and multiplicity of platforms and relevant questions I guess for Daniel and the colleagues on South Sudan maybe over to Barbara for the last question and thank you so much Barbara for being short and sweet okay I will can you hear me yes okay good so I'm Barbara McKellen and I'm the general advisor on housing land and property for the Danish Refugee Council started earlier this year and so first like everybody I know I have to be sure but I have to thank everybody for the really excellent and informative presentations particularly examples the recommendations so I just wanted I had one remark and one suggestion the one remark was to highlight the specific systems in context of conflict and displacement because often it happens that customary authorities have lost legitimacy because of the role they played in the conflict or the side they were on which means that then certain people no longer want to approach them so that's something rather specific if they have been displaced while the community no longer has access to them and so that creates a strategy because then if they've been discredited new body arrived and could be while you had youth groups who decided to start engaging in addressing HLP disputes and contesting the authorities of the elders so the multiplication of this dispute resolution mechanism creates forum shopping which decreases legal certainty of decisions and so these are very specific aspects that should be taken into account when deciding to engage because the general message is engage with existing mechanisms but what if this mechanisms have been compromised in relation to their own so that's one aspect and also especially in relation to HLP when the community is displaced if there's HLP disputes customary leaders don't have authority on the land where they are displaced so you can't really go to them you would have to address the leaders of the areas so all this means it's a bit tricky and there are some risks associated to engaging with customary justice we all know that and I think in particular in the case of DRC this is something that limits the engagement of some humanitarian organizations with customary justice so I really feel that we need guidance I mean we've heard great examples but I think it was Jonathan who talked about not reinventing the wheel I will have to develop guidance for DRC on how to engage and in my case on HLP with customary justice so I was wondering if would it be possible and I don't know if it's within the remit of the DISTARS team but because they did such a great work with the legal aid analytical framework is this something that this group could take on to develop some guidance on how to engage with customary justice in humanitarian settings and then you know we could put the respective expertise and guidance that exist DRC has done some work jointly with NRC IRC in Afghanistan I mean okay I'm not developing but you know we could start first by creating a sort of repository of what already exists and then based on this develop a sort of joint framework which everybody could benefit from and I think that would improve access to justice and limit the risk of creating harm, doing harm through inappropriate engagement with the customary justice. Thank you. Thank you so much Barbara I think very relevant points on the on the task team on law and policy I will leave to Martina the closing remarks but definitely an area for work maybe also in coordination with the housing lands and property areas of responsibility I know that they hold a meeting on engaging with customary justice mechanisms in October and they touch upon this issue as well so something to look at definitely Barbara and I'll maybe pass it on to Daniel to respond to the different questions counting also on your summary skills. Thank you so much Paula I want to thank Josephine and Barbara for their insightful sharing and I took note of one of the questions that Barbara has posed actually is somehow rhetorical and then she has also a position I think on this and of course I tend to agree with that position but we need to understand yes could this informal justice system be part of the give you referral pathways of course she is now an expert in that area this is just my personal opinion what I think it can be done in this area and then we took note before in our presentation that sometimes there is a lack of a comprehensive and in-depth understanding of informal justice and how they operate. In the context of South Sudan specifically if we see how they used to deal with issues of rape then probably one expert who was not there is medical attention but they had a very organized way of dealing with these issues and especially on confidentiality there is how they used to deal with them these those who are engaged in informal sector system so if we want to bring them on board to be part of referral pathway we need whether they would follow the SOPs is another thing but I think and I tend to agree there are standing challenges if they are well trained, equipped and appreciate the SOPs they can be included and they will be of great help. They will be of great help if they are included tapping on that original knowledge on how they deal with issues of rape as well it could be important but it's something that we need to be cautious in now whether we can include them now or we need more time to deal with them and thank you for sharing your insight on the issues of the rape and then the position the people position and then those areas. If I can put you well on whether I can also make a quick summary of what I also made is that what you said Paula? Yes, no thank you I wanted just to see your reaction on Barbara's point on the risks of engaging with existing structure informal mechanism in conflict settings. Yes, yes, yes sure thank you I think something I mentioned maybe if I did not come with it is challenging as yes in the in the context of displacement conflicts the informal justice system are compromised. I'm also seeing it from another angle which is part of particularly what I'm looking at in the customary context is that when displacement happens many communities are now brought together and then you see the informal system may not be adequate or sufficient to address so many communities with diverse customs cultures in one particular geographical area and that pose a challenge to informal justice system I think is one of the challenges but our approach on this side is about when the customary laws and the policies are harmonized if one community is displaced from this side and move this side they will be able to have a confidence that if they are to approach informal system they will get justice because they know these are these practices although different there is an aspect of them having been harmonized with the national legal norms and they will have these particular areas it's challenging from our side of course Josephine will understand it is anteriorly on land issues that we resolve the issue of question of ownership of land but then it was difficult so who actually own lands became difficult questions and who to approach whether informal or formal justice system was another thing so the conflict bring a lot of challenges in this area and then displacement but I think there is a need I agree with you need to develop guidelines on how to address these particular matters and then be able to move forward and address those challenges I think I tend to agree with that thank you over Thank you, thank you Daniels and thank you Barbara and Josephine for your very relevant question I can see in the chat there are several questions and suggestions but I think we are running out of time I will definitely advise you to enter the page of the program that Martina kindly shared also to look at the legal aid analysis framework that constitute a basis for the analysis including on informal justice system over to you Martina for really some very quick closing remarks thanks Thanks so much in modern closing remarks just to remind everybody well thanks so much to the speaker that was absolutely amazing I think everybody acknowledged and recognized the amount of work that you put in this presentation really showed that it was extremely useful for all the participants so thanks truly once again and will be following up on this but also just to remind you we shared the page of the project the legal aid analysis tools please feel free to keep reaching out to us in the legal in the testing to Katrien myself as the chair as your entry points if you'd like to hear more about what these tools are about how they can be used in your context we'll be more than happy to talk to you to the protection clusters or to the different AOS as relevant we are just there please feel free to reach out and let us know because we know a number of partners are thinking about applying the tools in a number of countries that such as Somalia or others maybe where we haven't you know that are relevant to your work so so please feel free to reach out just also to remind you that all the learning that we are collecting from these exchanges with all of you will be reflected in a compilation of practices and effective approaches and strategies that Paula is currently working on and we will be able to have a full draft soon also to share to those that would like to be involved and review etc just always let us know we'd be happy to have you so Katrien I don't know if you'd like to say also anything before we conclude I'm not going to keep people busy we're already quarter past three but yeah again just echoing the thank you for the great comments the great presentations a lot of interesting questions that we didn't get to which is really a pity but it seems that there is a lot to learn and to share so to be continued I would say and we'll find more opportunities to share good points from yeah I mean this is a very rich topic so I can go on forever but thank you everyone was really great to hear and yeah that's it for me Martina thanks thanks Kat, please Paula and in this case thank you again everyone and we'll be in touch thank you thank you everybody and again a special thanks to the speakers for for their work on their presentation thank you thank you, bye thanks a lot, bye thank you so much, bye and Paula, I call you