 Hi, good afternoon. My name is Sandy Baird and I'm here with a colleague by the name of Eric Añero Gentlemen, I've gotten to know in the past year or so a former CNN reporter from Africa Eric is from the Ivory Coast and from there and other parts of Africa and other parts of the world he reported for CNN and also for Voice of America we're lucky enough right now to have him in our community and Today as a couple of times ago, we're talking about again an update on the current war and the situation in Ukraine and Russia today, we're going to have a discussion essentially about what's going on on the ground in Ukraine and in Russia with an attempt to talk about the facts of the situation Trying to steer clear of the propaganda that has been coming at us daily non-stop 24 hours a day So here's Eric and so I want to ask the first question about what's going on And here we have the map again and here is Ukraine, which is the largest country in Europe, correct second largest second What's the first Russia? If Russia is, you know, considered European, of course it is. I mean people don't seem to know that, but it is Russia is a European country which goes to the Ural Mountains, correct? Yeah. Okay, but it is a European country although quite different than the rest of Europe and this is Ukraine the second largest country in Europe and this is where the current war is Occurring right now as we speak. So what's going on? What do you think? Yeah, what I think is you know The Western medias meaning, you know the NATO medias and NATO The world is claiming that Vladimir Putin is losing the war. Okay, wait a minute now you're the NATO countries are here, right on the border, correct? And Ukraine is not at this moment in NATO. Okay, great. And you know Russia doesn't even want Ukraine to be a NATO country. But we have the feeling that the Russians are You know losing the war Because you know, they couldn't seize Kiev and then couldn't get the capital and couldn't you know, seize the whole country Ukraine is a large country right that to start with but depending of course on The tank you are embedded in, you know during this war. You will see if Russia or Ukraine is winning But when you look from the Russian perspective, you have to ask yourself What was the objective right? Right and if people had listened to Putin They would have stated the objective or did he not did it many times? Okay So what again according to the Russian perspective and Vladimir Putin? What was his objective one? He said that clearly it was to demilitarize meaning to reduce, you know The military capacity of Ukraine, but because it was seeing Russia I mean Ukraine as a threat and and I will explain what went on even few days before the Russians Made the move and then second objective was to denazify That's what he said. Even though, you know, I'm not I'm not sure that, you know The as of battalion and the Nazis is referring to a real, you know Nazis Just people that don't like. Okay. So that needs a little bit of explanation Yeah, we'll get there. So the two objectives were one to, you know Reduce the military capacity of Ukraine. Did they have big armies? Ukraine? Yeah I mean enough to to create trouble. Yeah to worry and then the denazification But we have to know that since 2021 Zelensky in March 2021 signed a decree saying that he was going east to get back Crimea. Okay point out where Crimea is Crimea is here. Okay, you know Crimea is here and then he was also coming to get, you know, this region back because the in in Against the Minsk Accords means one get right. We have to explain that though. Yeah, okay. Go ahead. So everybody knew that, you know since then there were Some movement of troops from the Ukrainian government where to do the east Okay, and here from the Ukrainian government the Ukrainian government and who arms them I mean, of course, they have their own military and probably, you know, had some assistance from, you know, NATO countries and the United States, but so far no problem and then around the 16th of February 2022 2022 many intelligences sources of even the US US intelligences European intelligences and then according to a book from a French author who was a NATO functionary Jacques Bo who Bo yeah He was clear that around the 16 the Ukrainians were ready To make a move where to where to eastern region and cream that region particular region where you have the Donbass don't boss right and these regions of course have see have, you know declare their Autonomy and why okay, so show us again Donbass. Yeah, okay, right on the border of the Russian Federation you know and and you know Mario Paul and all these, you know You know cities, you know this region which is where you know now the Russian troops are the Russian troops are masked now Okay, well wait a minute but those places are Russian speakers aren't the Russian speakers and that's why you know when in 2014, you know, there was this trouble around there. There were some, you know two Negotiations first was the means what means agreements the means agreement even the Russians were not part of it The Russian didn't even were not even mentioned in the agreement all they wanted is like to give some I mean, it was about linguistic and culture But you know the Ukrainian Didn't did I mean violated this first call What was the accord to give those regions autonomy the Russian speaking like more autonomy and you know cultural because they are Russian speaking, right, but Kiev wanted to Take some over over like you know and pose, you know the the language from the the central government opposing, you know, they They they are, you know, the will to become more, you know, autonomous Okay, we won't get into the details of this, but Ukraine didn't respect that, you know agreement and what you want to do they went to war and then, you know They couldn't they couldn't win so they went back to a second round of negotiation where it was clear that, you know, you shouldn't, you know give trouble to this region, but really the The Ukrainian government didn't you know really accept that so many times they they used this paramilitary Paramilitary paramilitary Among them The Azar battalion what is what is the Azar battalion the Azar battalion is paramilitary, you know forces because you know the You know the the Ukrainian government is not very much Gear to fight within the cities. They have like the conventional army that come with huge, you know tanks and things But the Azar battalion It was used in this war because it was more a guerrilla type of war, you know But the Azar battalion comes from along I mean that that history of this battalion and and the forces paramilitary forces such as The Azar battalion come from a long time ago during the war against USSR You know what war against USSR because USSR at some point had like the whole region and then Ukrainian Also wanted some national there was a nationalism Ukrainian nationalism that was you know kind of against the central USSR, you know management of the region and then If I read and they were kind of associated at least in somebody's mind with the Nazi Germans of World War two at least they've been accused of that. Yeah, right, but I will if you go into history It's more because they're against, you know, everybody so to speak but you know against the Jewish people because at some point in the management of USSR Ministry of interior At the time of you know this confrontation Yeah, yeah, we're Jewish and and they were you know seen by these nationalists, you know from Ukraine as The response responsible of what was happening pressure. Yeah, they had that, you know hate against them Not particularly because they hate all the Jewish people even recently. I think not like in 2018 they they've even asked Israel. I know give them compensation. I know so it's just like a Patchwork of ideologies with mostly around some kind of strong, you know nationalism Ukrainian Okay, and then they're more like ultra ultra right, you know, but you know, of course by Naming, you know, the Jewish people that were in charge of that Ministry of Interior at the time of USSR, you know, they hate Was like right and it was interpreted interpreted But of course historian will you know argue about that but you know, it's mostly far, right? right, correct and there the Russians Defined that struggle then as a D Notification that's where that word comes from correct. Of course, it's war You know, everybody uses the word that is strong enough propaganda So for for for the Russians that was good enough, you know So rally some of you know the people around the world and against them because definitely You know, they were seen as a threat, you know, and they were toward Russia towards Russia, of course because they've been very much, you know Active in the Donbas region, you know kind of a civil war. Yes, right So when around February 16 the Russian had like the confirmation that you know, where did they get it from all the intelligence even You know, US intelligence Not even Russian intelligence even the US intelligence, you know, European intelligence, you know You you go to many of these organizations that are monitoring the region. They knew that and that's even why Joe Biden was so certain that he was Attack around what take what date around the 16th of February Okay, so, you know, and then it's even around that time that finally Vladimir Putin You know said yes to the request from this Republic so-called, you know, and they don't boss don't boss He acts he recognized not declared the independence as you know, the medias are, you know, a portraying right accepted through a request from this Republic went to the Duma the Duma is the Russian Parliament, I mean, I don't even think people know that there is a parliament. Yeah So so then Vladimir Putin is just in February that Vladimir Putin Recognizes republics as independent Independent but not part of Russia not part of Russia, right? And then then sign an agreement with them as to defend them like military agreement so that with regard to the I think it's UN like Article 51 of the UN Charter they can assist a country that is you know, you need You know according to that 51, I mean article of of the UN Charter so the russians Quite made things, you know, legally Yeah, that's what that's what they say, but that what was in the mind of you know, Vladimir Putin So as to know what Vladimir Putin and I mean what Russia because we tend to you know I know, I know, which is Russia military was was doing around Kiev It's interesting. It at that time. There were no, you know, literally no Ukrainian troop at the borders. No, because they were all In the eastern region ready to take over the Donbass region and Crimea How many years already Russian? Yeah, but you know, but it was like, I mean Like if you bring war over there, you might be able to you know get down there depending on So the russians According to some military, you know experts Yeah, russian russian experts even european expert went to Kiev to you know to To fix I mean people's mind and forces there So people would think that they are in fact trying to but it was to keep the you know, uh to cut Kiev from From these elements that were fighting ready to fight in the east. So but wait a minute. So you're saying that the encirclement of Kiev Was deliberate to kind of divert attention away from their real plan to get the east. Yeah Is that correct? I mean, yes, is that what Putin said? Is that it's what is being you know, I mean analyzed and you know, that's what people are saying But it's definitely what russia was doing because Russia never said that they will Get okay, that's important russia never said they wanted all of Ukraine So it's too philosophies is because the west is not reading Right how the russians do war war for the russians is a continuum of politics, you know, rather than the west You know, we come We do negotiations and then if it doesn't go boom We attack russia use that as a way to also have a leverage on on on the negotiation And and on Kiev to to be able to you know, tame down They, you know, what they they they bomb kiv The russians. Yeah Russia According to even the pentagon Russia did in one month what the coalition did in one day In in in iraq. Okay. So it took him a month Yeah, no, so it means that if russia really wanted to destroy kiv They would have sent like bombs like if russia really wanted to uh to kill civilians in mass To bombard host because they could have done it like we've done it more Even more precision because they have, you know, this kind of weapons But the idea is was to cut whatever they bombarded in kiev and around kiev was like military command, you know chain of supply And then when he comes even to that hospital that they said was was bombarded Said uh on the seven two days before the of february two days before that operation The russian diplomat at the u.n. Was doing his daily briefing on what was going on It said that that hospital was even evacuated by the The russians no no the ukrainians Because it's a very good place when you see it From there you can like you have a very good view of what's going on So it would have been logical for a defending force to occupy that But it was said by the russians that that place was evacuated by the the uh The ukrainian on the second the the following day an independent You have to put that in a Russian media went there to Uh interview people that you know were evacuated the russian media did yeah So it was quite clear at least in the mind of the russians that they were going to attack a place That was not full of civilians. You know so uh I'm not sure that they would have done that just to You know blow up a hospital of civilians over there. That's just being said. Yeah, it was and everybody knows that It was it was occupied by the you know the ukrainian forces And you know and and and the azov battalion because it happened in uh in uh mario pole, right? Uh-huh and which is where and mario pole is right there, which is in the Donbass put it that way and what your argument is that the donbas At this moment have been recognized by the russians. Yes at this moment independent independent But not part of ukraine or russia Russia and then russia even had a treaty with these republics right as to be able to Assist them militarily. Okay. Yeah as like uh for what they see as an aggression to an independent country But even russia bloody me put in accept that russia and bloody me put in sign that you know I mean recognition of their independence in february Not like that he He did that long time ago. It's just because the situation was pushing him I believe to do that. So well, he also says it was pushing him He kept them. He kept you know kiev like so this is what is called military strategy what you're talking about And if you'll notice there's not one Western reporter who even mentions that there was a military strategy as there is in every war because you know It's it's two two a different philosophy of war like in the west we go we we get on the capital city We destroy everything and then we like bagged it like bagged that But the russians don't do that the russians, you know They just like surrounded the capital to cut any link from the capital to the battalions and then armed forces that were fighting in the east As to weaken them Keep you know the attention of the world and the attention of kiev because why wasn't it Because zehlensky was people in the west thought that uh, you know, vladmy putin was coming to get Zehlensky in kiev. No, he was according to You know military, you know strategies Even the pentagon he was to you know, you know, uh, uh, divert attention and keep the forces okay So what you're talking about was you have through your research And through your look at the facts That uh This was on the russian side rather a limited war Yes, it's even they call it an operation because they say that the war started earlier according to the russians And then to them the the the the war didn't even start on the When they attacked it started earlier because they knew that you know the the people from kiev I mean the government of kiev was about to attack, you know That region, okay So before okay, so is there yeah, and then okay, and then it's interesting to see that the european When you know, uh kiev was forced to negotiate forced to negotiate because they had to negotiate So they went to negotiate like in I think it was in belarus Yeah, where the first round of negotiation, which is said to be pro russia. Anyway, it started a little, you know It was difficult at the beginning But ultimately zehlensky said he's agreed to to negotiate For a while he said that as soon as he said that the european said we're bringing you a lot of you know weapons So the real issue is now the real question is are we going to to have peace over there? And that piece depends not necessarily on zehlensky because if zehlensky is Intelligent he will know that and he seems to be intelligent, but he also seems to be blocked Yeah, because you know, it's the the european nato is doing a proxy war and using zehlensky in this country in this proxy war So I bet he receives his orders from from nato or washington real Because I think there's disunity within the within nato But okay, so let's go on. All right, so If this is a limited war on russia's part Had who's winning the limited war at this moment Who knows I guess right? Yeah But the west or in the united states seems to be saying over and over That that russia is failing. I don't think so It doesn't because they're concentrated here Correct if if the objective according to the west and nato was to take all of you all ukraine then made it bloody but According to what vladimir putin himself said This was not the intention The intention i'm pretty sure is like to bring kiev to It's easy. Yeah. Yeah, and then have them give up On you know these okay, so that's very important because I saw zehlensky today or I read about zehlensky today on consortium news Which is a website And I believe that at first He would have made an agreement kind of allow the east to be independent or you know quasi independent He would have allowed them the russians to keep Crimea As long as he could remain the leader of western ukraine Somehow that has been jettisoned because europe and nato failed to you know Seize many occasions to resolve that issue first Look what what was done in chechnya. Yeah, the russians gave you autonomy to chechnya Oh, yeah, the chechnya have even their own armies. I mean like national guard and things but now they they're fighting with russia In this war, but you know russia was smart enough to say okay. This guy wants and I mean autonomy will keep them autonomy Which one the chechnya chechnya, you know independent east and so So he made like chechnya feel like now they have autonomy So they came down the anything that's what you know Zehlensky was supposed to do according to the means accord. It wasn't even about Seeding it wasn't even about being independent republic They were just saying that we have some cultural, you know, uh, uh, link to russia Let us keep our cultural language. I mean our languages. Let us keep our Minx too was about giving that Even minx too was not even uh, you know, uh, uh patronized or sponsored by russia russia's was not even part of that accord It was okay up to Kiev Too maneuver very well with this republic that would have accepted some kind of autonomy But in in in fact the real The real, uh, you know aim for you know, it was to To go further is okay. So So what we're saying I think um is that If it is a limited war if that's correct as you Seemed through your research. It's not just that you cook this up in your mind. That could be achieved fairly soon However, what you're also saying that the west's objective are maybe not limited war The you know the the next month and weeks will tell us what's going on because you know now we have to get Yeah, well the thing that bothers me is the fact that there is no discussion from any of the Information that comes from the united states That there's any thought apiece because I think that the united states and nato's strategy has changed Is to really drive the russians out of crimea and out of the east and if that's true Then what that means is the war will be long It's a world war. Yeah at that point because russia's not going to stand for it Yeah, and like we have to be very worried about what will happen next and how what do you think how long is this Because they're arming. I mean the polis are arming Other nato countries are sending arms. My bet is that you know, it's going to be a very long conflict where you know You know, like afghanistan afghanistan unless you know between who and who I mean, uh Maybe unless we reach an agreement Kiev will always continue to push towards, you know, because it's been pushed by uh, the west We'll see because you know, it's very what is your I mean, there's a huge convoy now today eight miles long From russia through this area. Where are they going here? Yeah, this is where you know Okay, so the but the trucks are going to the eastern part of yeah, and what is it? What's the plan? What is he doing? The plan is now that they recognize these independent, you know places They're not no longer part of, you know, ukraine So they will master troops over there and then you know block any and what will then the united states in particular United states is my country. I want to know what we're going to do I mean if you if you listen to you know, uh, what is being said like around washington and you know in the news I mean in the intelligence, you know word is that even the military Here are not like uh, not that you know because they know they are facts. They know but it's the politics I mean the politicians that have another, you know agenda. So usually conflicts with even the military So we'll see remember in iraq cia didn't see anything in in iraq but yet calling power was sent with a little, you know, you know, so It would depend but so the next move is really on on nato, correct? The next move is on nato. I think and you know nato now, you know The russians are waiting for nato to to to pull out the cards now because you know You think they're waiting But they're getting prepared Well, that's very interesting eric any final thoughts and I guess we should be very careful over Yeah, we have to push for peace We have to push I know but I don't under there is no push for peace in this country zero that I that's what every day I like I'm not saying this is hopeless Nobody nobody is talking about the fact that this could have been settled Oh, yeah, because we have been settled like many years ago when people knew I mean these two agreements means one means two We're clear about, you know, what to do but you know Zelensky and then Zelensky and then Zelensky Kenny does he control all these militias and where are we going at the end of the day Does does Zelensky control Ukraine? At the end of the day is the russian population and then there are I mean the Ukrainian population that are suffering, you know, and and and but it's geopolitics Good thought. I mean, it's not a good thought. It's a horrifying thought but I think I think from your research And from your intelligence what you see is that this is a struggle between Two big superpowers. Yeah, and then I would always say that when two elephants fight It's the grass underneath that suffers right and then it's like the ukrainian The ukrainians are the grass but in europe even europe it's not ready for all that germany doesn't want to cut off the Of the whole mess and then it could create a new economical order with you know the brakes and you know russia Bringing all these And then it's going to be disastrous for the whole the whole it's going to be disastrous for our country the united states and then for the rest of the Countries, I mean, I mean we I mean the us has a long history of waging war So probably, you know, we haven't won any lately. It won't be that much, you know Problem for oh, yeah elsewhere. It's starting, you know, you know inflation in africa starting here. Oh, yeah It's even here. So we have to find a I mean, I don't know, but it's hard for each big super I mean superpowers to You know Go go back once they already launched it will take time I don't know it will but we have to be also afraid of you know nuclear Anything can happen. I know anything can happen. Okay. Well and anything probably will so thank you very much Oh, let's hope that he won't Back next month, right? Yeah, okay, great. Thank you. You're welcome