 Joining us now is Sadguruji of the Isha Foundation and he's somebody who has also very actively spoken about the need for the Tamil Nadu government to let go of the control over Hindu temples or Hindu religious institutions. Sadguruji, let me start with your thought because we here have said that it's time to take the right stand to free Hindu temples but let me understand from you. So let me bring a little historical perspective to how these things have happened. It all started with a regulation, a Madras regulation. It was called the Madras regulation of 1817. So this was done by East India Company, not even by the British government. Then by 1840 it you know the resistance built up within their own society that Christian men were managing pagan temples. So resistance came up in England. So in 1840 they wanted to give it back. So they put out a directive and said, okay hand it over to the trustees. But then by then they had taken over, trust were dismantled, all this had happened. So few main temples they handed over. By 1845 most of the temples were handed over important ones. Then they passed a religious endowment act in 1863 with which they made a complete handover of the religious institutions and endowments back to the Hindu community. Then in 1925 they passed a Madras religious and charitable endowment act. This included all religions. By now this was a strategy to stem the independence movement in the country and they found whether it's a mosque or a church or a temple, all of these things were becoming hubs for people to meet and you know come together and act. So they tried to take over all religious institutions. But there was a vigorous resistance from the minorities. So they excluded them and brought the act only for the Hindus as it was called as the Hindu endowment act, Hindu temple and endowment act, whatever it was called. Then further they tightened the screws in 1935 that they could give you know like a notification to any temple to take it over. And this is all happening before independence, but post-independence in 1951 they passed this law of Hindu religious and charitable endowment acts 1951 and many provisions of this 1951 act were struck down both by the Madras High Court and the Supreme Court. So during the Kamaraj era in 1959 they passed another this Tamil Nadu Hindu religious and charitable endowment act was passed which is still in operation right now with this over 37,000 temples are in government control. So what is the issue here? The issue is one thing is it's a disgrace that in a secular country that one community I mean if you say this in any other country if you mention this nobody will believe you. Nobody will believe in India religious institutions are managed by the government. So secular institutions means they should have no business with any religious institution. When I when we talk about the Hindu temples immediately there's a whole group of people who will say then take over churches also take over mosques also. I'm saying the government has no business to touch a mosque or a church or a temple or a Gurudwara or anything for that matter. Right now there is one problem so let us multiply the problem that is not a solution all right. The important thing is the devotee should manage the temple because fundamentally the Indian temples were not created as places of prayer. There is no single person leading the prayer for a group of people. It is largely different types of energy centers where people can go soak themselves in that energy whatever whether you believe or not it is true for millions and millions of people for millennia it has been the experience of people whether you believe you don't believe that is your issue but in terms of basic human rights this must happen in terms of constitutional rights as fundamental rights this must happen. But now there's a whole lot of people arguing their argument is generally but it was under kings and kings are also government so it was always under government this is not true because kings were devotees kings were very strong devotees to such a point in many kingdoms the deity was the king the king was a divan or a minister for the deity. So always the deity ruled only in the deities name he ruled the country. So they were a different people all together and there also the contributions came from the people to build the temples above all these are especially the South Indian temples the ma'am the Tamil Nadu temples particularly they are magnificent creations of engineering and architecture if you see what they have done thousand years ago twelve hundred fifteen years fifteen hundred years ago you will feel proud of being human because it's absolutely incredible in terms of engineering the mastery of engineering that they had and how they built these structures is too phenomenal but they're all being systematically being run down all the artifacts are being stolen they're all mostly gone because people who have no feeling no heart for the temple are managing the temple and there are various aspects economic aspects to it that is not my interest my interest is fundamentally if you want this country to move ahead you don't discriminate between people everybody should have the same rights this is the whole thing one country one law all this we are talking everywhere but it's not happening in a very fundamental way so Tamil Nadu temples have to be released because the tightest endowment act probably is in Tamil Nadu in other states maybe it's a little more lax but even that should not be there that's a different matter but here it's a proper control even if you build a new temple and if it becomes a popular temple government will send a notification to take it over this is just ridiculous you can't do this in any country I'm saying even in countries like Russia or China you don't do these things how can you do this in a country like India which is a secular nation which is a democratically elected leadership and our constitution gives absolute right for everybody to practice the religion irrespective of what faith they are you can even start a new faith and practice it I'm saying it's not that the existing faiths you can start any new faith and practice it when this is the case the majority populations places of worship or their temples are being managed by the government is a very shameful thing but the reality is that Guruji irrespective of the political party the eyes are always on the temples and if you from left to right after political spectrum left in Kerala if you look at the idea DMK DMK bar you know successively in Tamil Nadu you look at TDP OSRC Congress in Andhra Pradesh if you look at via you know the TRS in Telangana or the BJP in Uttarakhand everywhere political parties immediately want to jump on on onto the temple there was some temple boards and in its management is it purely money or is it something else see see I don't want this to be looked at it from the political spectrum as you said no party is exempt all of them have been involved in this this is a kind of a plunder I don't even care about the plunder whole lot of people are worried about the money and the property my concern is a sacred space has been desecrated systematically and aesthetic aspect of these temples are so phenomenal but today if you go to many of the Tamil Nadu temples stone carvings okay I'm saying they carved not soap stone or marble as it's done in North India or soap stone in Karnataka here we carved granite very hard stone into exquisite art and you know what they did they put silver paint on it oil paint enamel paint for the entire stone carvings it's somebody some government officer's idea of aesthetic what do you do for this kind of thing this kind of desecration and temple processes have been changed and without taking into the other aspects the science of temple temple building they've made changes they put walls here and there aesthetics is being a completely you know massacred really so my concern is temple is being destroyed yes property and wealth and gold attached to it I think the British took away most of it anyway what was left other people are taking it that is one aspect yes for the temple to be a living temple for it to be managed well it needs some wealth for itself to manage but even that is not even my concern my concern is first of all of fundamental rights what is insure you know country in the Constitution why is it that we don't have those fundamental rights and above all these are not something that you can once again build these are not something that you can simply create tomorrow morning this is something which is taken generations of people to build in a certain way in a particularly in Tamil Nadu see you we must understand the context of this these are called temple towns not because there is a temple first the temple they built the temple people who built these magnificent temples they themselves lived in hutments all right they didn't care how they left this is the sense of devotion with which this has come many of the places where these granite temples massive granite temples have been built there is no stone they have transported it like 300 400 kilometers away when there were no trucks when there are no cranes this tons and tons of granite they brought and they carved and they put it up this is taken two three generations of work and the way it was consecrated you know like for example Chidambaram temple is consecrated with Patanjali Maharishi how can you destroy that there are many other temples consecrated by Agastya Muni how can you destroy that this is a legacy you cannot destroy but unfortunately a lot of damage has been done I think time has come it should be released now people are saying oh then all kinds of corruption will happen it is absolutely ridiculous and insulting to say that the majority community doesn't have a handful of people who have the necessary brains and integrity to manage a temple when when today we are in a time where we are thinking in terms of government should not manage an airline it should not manage airports it moon I should not manage ports it should not manage industry business mining everything should be given to the people to manage in terms of private entities temples somehow government is qualified to manage how come it's just ridiculous because you mentioned the Chidambaram temple Sadhguruji 2014 the honorable Supreme Court had passed a landmark judgment and I spoke to Dr. Swami also Subramanian Swami who had argued that case it is a case which is pending in court since 1886 and the court very clearly came out and said that temple should be managed by priests and on by government the court also said that the priests constitute a religious denomination and their rights are to be preserved and protected from any invasion by the state but despite that this goes on the court also said if there is maladministration or malpractice you set it right and give it back to the people again but if there is any kind of malpractice in a given institution all these institutions any kind of charitable trust or religious trust comes under the Indian law so if there is any malpractice as if there is a malpractice in a business or in a media house or in an industry or in a trust there are laws there's the IPC to handle any crime that happens you don't take over everything simply because there is some malpractice in one or two institutions yes it can happen it is happening in every aspect of life isn't it yes but why is it that we as Hindus in this country as I said in 1925 unfortunately they passed a law to take all the religious institutions the British including mosques and churches and temples and everything Gurudwara's but they released the other two because they went on the street unfortunately we are setting this trend if you want any kind of justice you have to burn something on the street this is an unfortunate way to manage a nation when we make an appeal please look at it properly why do you want people to come on the streets and burn things we don't want to go that way that is not our way of doing things I'm just raising a issue it is for the government to act or let people protest then we will do what kind of nonsense is that it is simply unfair that only if you dismantle the country in some way you will act only if we distort the country in some way only if you give trouble to everybody's life okay block the highway block rail Roco Rasta Roco Bijli loco something you do then you will act please do not take the country in this direction let us be a law abiding nation when a sensible appeal is made everybody should look at it I'm saying everybody irrespective of which party you belong to what position you hold anybody who is in some kind of administrative position has to look at this this is absolutely unfair in my opinion this amounts to kind of apartheid you know it is it has to be discriminated in a country where we are actually a majority by you know I'm saying it doesn't even matter whether your majority or minority for anybody I'm saying even if you take over mosques or Gurudwara's or churches I would say the same thing because fundamentally it's wrong but this wrong has been perpetrated for decades and decades and it's coming on from the you know so what is the solution are you willing to get all the matadheeshis all the you know pita dishes together all the you know we don't have to make a collective demand we we don't have to go there I'm saying why should we come together and cause some disturbance then only you will act I'm just making an appeal let it come to everybody's notice every sensible Indian must act on this it doesn't matter which community you belong to all right I am not a regular temple going person I'm not a temple going person I'm saying this because it's a glaring injustice in your face it is simply there for everybody to see so out of somebody's greed what was done in colonial era for what purposes it was done everybody knows we don't have to go into that it is just that yesterday because you mentioned America yesterday one poet Amanda whatever her name Gorman yeah she was reading a poem in that she said one line I thought it was fantastic she said just ease everything is just ease the way it is is not just ease all right this is just ease from the British era and this is not just ease this is absolute injustice true but but let me ask you it's not there even in the Chetana or the conscience of the people how is that going to happen because everybody wants them to vote everybody talks about welfare of certain groups of communities and sections of people but this injustice seems to be lost on everybody else temples are also a source for keeping our culture alive our traditions alive you know passing on historical knowledge but all of that is also getting lost oh not just lost systematically being eliminated not just being lost see temples were centers of craft art music everything at one time well you how far you can revive that what you can do I'm saying in every city in every town wherever the temples are there or in every state let's say we start see because this is a complex issue it can't be all some 36,000 temples can't be handed over tomorrow morning all right so you have to form a state level board of the community with respect responsible people who are not coming there for the money that is there or whatever wealth that is there there are people who are successful who don't care about what the temple has there is some devotion in their hearts you form a trust of that kind of people for the state and then for every city every district whatever you form more trust this is a long process it's not going to happen tomorrow I don't mind if it takes four years or five years but in the process should begin at least by intent the intent at least you must show I can understand the process is complex it needs to be done in a graduated way if you don't do it in a calibrated way it can you know it can become a mess so isn't there a solution for this definitely there is a solution when you can hand over air India to somebody you can do this very easily it is not a commercial operation anyway even now the temple runs because the devotees are coming not because government is advertising for the temple there is no commerce involved there is no marketing involved people will anyway come right now most temples are kept in kept in such a way that even a devotee would not want to go there that is how it is kept but you're saying it'll take some time I'm just saying in the in Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanam Chidambaram temple Padmanabha Swami every temple every every state in our country has temples which are a huge throngs of devotees who go there and that's what gets the state to want to control them because they say we have to control the administration otherwise you will not be able to handle the people and the flow of devotees that's the reason given the state needs to be there to ensure that this is done in Uttarakhand 500 temples have been taken over from the chief minister downwards everybody sitting there they're saying we want to improve we want to connect the char dhams and that's why we are doing it see they they if they want they can government initiated trust can be formed if you want you can put one eyes officer on it to ensure everything is okay all right till let us say for the next 10 years or 15 years you can put an eyes officer there then slowly you can withdraw or if it's necessary forever he can be there but the temple should be managed by devotees because there is a certain process see all temples are not same it's not like see for example with every other religion in all the Gurdwara same thing will be happening and all the mosque same thing will happen in all the churches same thing will happen all right minor differences but essentially same thing but here it's not like that it's a whole world by itself a Devi temple is one way a Shiva temple another way Vishnu temple another way Krishna Rama very very different I'm saying everything is different that is the beauty of this culture that we are so essentially different but we have no issues you're taking that for granted just ease if this is how it's been well it's been like this since 1800 so what is the problem we can just continue like this into 20 seconds century no I think it must change it must change I agree it must change but if hot-jodh ke appeal karke if it doesn't change then it has to come from the people and a large mass will have to come and for that they will have to understand the impact of what is happening sadhuji see the important the important thing is right now Tamil NATO is going in for election so recently three days ago during the Pongal event when we had some young man stood up and asked me sadhu who should I vote for I said see who you vote for I will not tell you can vote for whoever you want I'll never tell anybody who they should vote for but I'll let me tell you who I vote for so I listed out five points let me not go through all the five points because one is about Kaveri one is about the farmers one is about industry one is about investments one is about corruption like this and the last one is about the temples I said any party which promises we will start up I'm not a impractical person I'm saying tomorrow morning change it no you start the process you start the process let it start happening and anybody who promises they will start the process within six months of coming to power my vote is for them it's up to you to decide who your vote where it goes so a democratic nation means during the time of election you can affect changes all right people should take up this responsibility true well said sir well said that's what we said should it become a poll issue should the Hindu vote go to those who will free the temples along with making the promises on the other four or five points that you talked about thank you very very much sir always a pleasure speaking to you Namaskar Namastaram