 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Bill Whitney of Calderwood percussion bill welcome to the show Thanks, man. Happy to be here. Yeah, this is this is another like usual long one in the making I We met and talked at the Chicago show or it might have been Pacek. Yeah, I think it was Pacek a couple years ago Yeah, back when the world was Yeah, when when those sort of things were a thing Yeah, when we could be around each other and we talked about, you know doing a rope tension thing and here we are basically two years later Yeah And we're making it happen. So You're the owner and operator of Calderwood percussion. Obviously you're a performer and a teacher and all this cool stuff, but Yeah, so today We are covering the history of rope tension drums something that you are very very passionate about So why don't we jump in a little bit and and you can kind of just tell us about the background on this this amazing You know type of tension and and I always say this don't like Assume that anyone knows anything because this is something that I know very little about Um about how it holds the tension and the little like kind of like, you know I guess they're called ears or whatever that hold it on. Um, yeah ears unless you're in England in which case They're called buffs buffs neither name makes any sense to me, but that's what they're called No, so but anyway, just kind of lay it all out there like you're talking to a first grader here about rope tension drums in the history Okay, um So first of all this subject is pretty infinite and uh, my sort of range of of knowledge is primarily um Drums as they exist in western music sure So, uh, you know, there's obviously a huge culture tradition with uh native americans And I think indigenous peoples of everywhere to have to have all kinds of drums and of course there's the whole african tradition I don't know a lot about that but uh from the sort of you know, Eurocentric Musical world that I'm knowledgeable about um I can say that uh It goes back it goes back a long time. So basically Where where my knowledge kind of kind of picks up and and is admittedly spotty, but is is kind of like 10th 11th century, right where uh The the earliest instruments that that I know about drums I would call a taber and I I've seen depictions going back as far as like the early 11th century But I've seen a lot more stuff that has like more accuracy or detail In like the 13th century to the 16th century where these drums these these tabers it would be Kind of small by like our standards like somewhere in the neighborhood of like 12 inches in diameter Sure, and uh earlier on they they were On the shallower side. So maybe like between 4 and 10 inches deep Got typically these would have usually calfskin But maybe goat or maybe horse But some kind of skinhead the drums would be made of wood uh construction Honestly, I think I think there's a lot of of variants there whether it was a hollowed out log or or a steam bent uh board I think the the steam bending would probably be the the most common thing you would you would see looking back that far Uh stave construction actually goes way back. I mean as long as we've had barrels, you know The stave drums have existed as well But uh, but yeah, some kind of wooden shell With natural skins on each side and the skins were tensioned with rope um Back then there weren't to the best of my knowledge, there weren't counter hoops So the the skin would be tucked on a flesh hoop And the flesh hoop unlike the aluminum u-channel that Uh modern day uh mylar heads are epoxied into that aluminum u-channel, right? But back then it would be a flesh hoop So you'd have the skin that was tucked or lapped if you're british Onto the flesh hoop which would normally be made of of wood um But it was not unusual to see it made out of rope actually. Hmm Uh, especially, you know back back from that time period, but so these drums would have Uh the the rope that was tensioning the drum would actually pass through the skins um And uh and be pulling against that flesh hoop, you know, so there's no counter hoop on the drum Interesting and for snares if they had snares It would usually be one or maybe two strands of gut um and when you look at it old artwork like like um Like drawings from like praetorias or whatever or like old tapestries and stuff You very often see the the snare gut is on the batter head um Or or on both heads although I I You know, there's a wealth of knowledge out there beyond what i'm what i'm talking about But from what from what I've seen I've seen very few images where you can see the bottom of the drum. Sure. Yeah, really So, uh, I can't say for sure that having guts on only the batter head was was the thing or on both heads But yeah, so you have one or two strands and uh, that would either be in earlier drawings you Usually just see it where it's like tied on Uh, eventually it would be secured with a friction peg just like on a violin or a cello, you know And and that's how it would be tensioned So Though those drums uh, tabers, you know, that was was a really popular thing and a very popular style of playing was what's called pipe and Tabor, right? So the you would hold the drum On a on a strap and you'd hang it over your left forearm, right? So you'd have it hanging off your arm And you would play it with a stick in your right hand and then with your left hand you would be playing a pipe Which is similar to a modern-day recorder except it only had three holes down at the bottom And it was like a diatonic Uh overblown flute. So you'd you know, you could play diatonic scales and you just sort of like overblow through the partials So it only had three holes, but you could still play, you know an octave and a half or possibly two octaves of a diatonic scale Uh, so musicians would play The melodies on on pipe and accompany themselves with their Tabor So kind of a one-man band kind of thing, you know, yeah, I found a cool picture of it online. It's like you're You're I guess left arm like you said is kind of going through that loop holding the drum and then also holding the the uh, the pipe And so what era would that be then? I mean, I know you said like 11th century But are we so is are we kind of looking at that that time period for this? um Up I mean that this was this was common for a very long time I mean you see a lot of depictions of that up like into the 16th century gotcha Um, you know or even later. I think uh, actually shakespeare. It mentions it. Um There's I can't remember what play this is from but there's this uh I can't even remember the the exact line But but the the point of it is, you know, one character talking another saying, you know When did you trade the pipe and Tabor for the fife in the drum? Uh, which which basically means like pipe and Tabor is love songs and fife and drum is is military songs, you know battle and um So this tradition of this sort of like romantic musical style Goes existed for a very long time As we get as we get uh a little bit further on in time like like getting into the 16th century you see the Tabor be much deeper and um, uh, for instance, the tabloid proven shall which is Uh much much deeper Than it than the diameter drum Uh, you'd see him like well the ones I make are are 24 by 14 but uh, even even larger drums are you see images of And uh, that actually has a place in modern orchestra too like like the Farondale and the was it l'Urssien by bizé or like, uh, copelin uses it in a few pieces Uh messian uses it. Um, so some of these ancient instruments do do have actual modern orchestral Sort of uh implementations But uh, so with these tabers throughout this whole time period that we're discussing Uh, skinheads, uh wooden shell, that's all you know ubiquitous, uh with with the rope tensioning Sometimes you'll see the rope just laced around and that's it Uh other times you would see it with ears or buffs And uh, if if you're unfamiliar An an ear is basically so if you imagine the the drum with the rope being laced up and down The rope forms like triangle shapes all the way around the drum, right? Yeah, and uh, so it the at the top of each of these triangles There's a little leather tab And it just kind of goes around it goes around the the two sides of the rope And as you push it down it pulls the ropes together at the top of that triangle So you wind up with a small triangle with with a line of two ropes going up from it And so as you pull the ropes together and each of those triangles going around the drum You're going to uh increase the tension on the drum. So you're going to raise the pitch And uh So the I don't know when ears Were invented or became a common thing, but somewhere along the line Somebody had the idea and ears have taken a lot of forms. I mean most frequently you see them made out of leather with with a number of different shapes Uh, I've also seen them as metal rings Um Leather with sort of metal clips at the top There's a bunch of different sort of iterations of that Yeah, but but that's the the basic Uh sort of function of the drum is is the rope goes around and and sort of get your your base tension You know think of it like with timpani clearing the head and then as you as you move those ears Up and down the ropes you're you're raising the pitch um So uh and as you you know, let me ask you do you like just I'm talking then and now obviously it's probably different stuff But like do you just use your hands to move the ears up? Can you get enough tension on like a modern snare it you can okay? Yeah So with with modern drums modern rope tension drums like what you might hear at uh, you know the west point hellcats or the the us army old guard Modern rudimental drum lines. They actually have kevlar heads on those things and we we tension them on a hydraulic press So there's there's really quite a lot of tension in these things, but you can still push the ears up and down by hand cool Now part of that too has has to do with the design of the drum You know the shallower the drum the more ears you want to put around because Again, if you imagine those triangles the wider the triangle is the harder It is going to be to push that ear down and the more likely the ear is to slip So there's there's sort of a sweet spot for for you know How many ears do you want to put around the drum or how many holes you're going to put in the hoop? So that you know, you still have that that tunability. Yeah, really Can I also ask you real quick while we're here before we move too far like forward by definition? What is the difference between a taper as i'm googling and kind of looking at them? and Moving into a rope tension like snare drum. It looks like there's there's like like you said there's no counter hoop there's no actually it's usually tensioned through the flesh hoop and What would you describe as being you know, what makes one different from the other? It's sort of a gradual evolution. I mean a taper is a snare drum. I suppose it's a drum with a snare on it, right? I i'm not really sure when The the snare moved to only on the bottom head And I think that's kind of a one of the real defining characteristics of okay of what we think of as a snare drum Is you have a batter head and you have a snare side head and the snare on the bottom sure Even looking at jeremy monague's book Tempani and percussion which that and the james blade book I think are like kind of To me that the most well researched books on on the history and evolution of these instruments You know even looking through there jeremy monague specifically says that like there there's no clear record of when that shift happened um but But somewhere after the 16th century People stopped putting the snares on the batter head Oh god, and I would say if we're gonna have a defining characteristic. I would say Snares only on the bottom of the drum and that the drum has counter hoops got it Yeah, that makes sense from looking at the pictures It's like it's like and it looks almost more like like the tabers almost more I don't want to say tribal, but it looks like it has those roots As opposed to like a standardized, let's say in this case like an american snare drum or not american But you know like a military which that's a great way to like you said before taber And pipe versus fife and drum is military versus kind of romance or whatever you said that it seems pretty clear um Yeah, I mean That it was I it was more of a folk instrument All right. I think that's that's pretty fair to say um But uh, yeah that um And like I said, the other thing is counter hoops, you know, I don't know when Counter hoops really became a thing like And I think all this stuff was gradual anyway, you know, if you think about like the bass drums, right so Uh bass drums sort of began similarly, but But they came more from from turkey So like when when we start to see bass drums happening in like european music It was probably like 18th century with composers like mozart and hyden And they were really influenced by turkish janissary bands and that that sort of military percussion which would be like symbols triangles the turkish crescent which If you're unfamiliar is basically a A big crazy like pole arm looking thing with bells and and jingles all over it We recently made one for the handle and hide in society here in boston actually which was a super fun project but But that in these big kind of bass drums, which they called a davul, which i'm not sure if i'm pronouncing that correctly, but A davul basically looks like a giant tabor, but with no snares I I can't say that they never did this but i've never seen them with ears on them But they didn't have counter hoops to the best of my knowledge the ones that i've researched anyway and You know those european composers who were in vienna at the time You know they're really influenced by this this turkish janissary music which Uh kind of makes sense because at the time like that'd be the ottoman empire, right? Which like modern day turkish pretty far from vienna, but like the ottoman empire at the time wasn't really that far so For that influence to have sort of moved geographically kind of kind of makes sense sure But again, this is this is uh, we're in the 18th century now looking at these bass drums that didn't have counter hoops um But uh, I know the 18th century military drums did right so like if you look at the american revolutionary war You know we we're we're in something that that is much more like what we would think of as a military snare drum you know these Kind of square sizes like 17 by 17 with counter hoops with snares on the bottom and uh you know, I think that's kind of a Sort of formative innovation as well like how are the snares fastened? How are they adjusted? You know, we began with guts tied on and then guts tensioned with friction pegs And then somewhere along the line we we got to this j-hook which is um it's basically just a J shaped hook with with a screw and um So on on the drum shell there was some sort of uh of mount that this that this hook threaded this Screw hook would go through and then you'd tighten a little kind of wing nut type thing And that would pull the hook up and thereby tension the snares Uh, so the snares would just be one strand of gut that went back and forth across the bottom of the drum like 10 or 12 times um And that's a dramatic improvement over friction pegs But it still kind of sucks in terms of adjustability and and snare sensitivity and things like that And then when we get into the 19th century we see something More like what what we're familiar with where you've actually got a pinch bar So the the snares as individual strands get clamped onto this pinch bar, which can be raised and lowered with a screw Uh throw offs still didn't happen for a while It was just snare strainers that you could tighten or loosen but but no throw off and i'm not exactly sure when throw offs really Came into fashion. I'm I'm gonna say probably mid 19th century. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah Well or or later. I mean even with civil war drums, you never really see Throw offs, but I'm not really sure with like orchestral instruments at that time Yeah, sure. Yeah, definitely by late 19th century for sure. It seems I don't know this but it seemed I don't know this at all I'm just totally guessing but it seems like one of those things where it would be like Almost like a gladstone thing or like a like a george way thing where it's like, you know Let me put this thing that like like one of those crazy inventions that comes out. Yeah, I mean those dudes Yeah, all kinds. I'm glad stone in particular. I mean it happened before him. I'm sure but but still he was such a great innovator and um But yeah, I mean, I would imagine it was kind of that that sort of thing where Especially when the drums are taken out of a military context Yeah, you know and and put in an orchestral context and now composers are really interested in the sounds and the ways You can play these things and extended techniques or whatever and Yeah, I imagine that's sort of how it happened. Sure. So the j-hook I've wondered that for a long time because I've I've seen those old drums where your brain wants to kind of like Like as a drum set guy, you want to call it like you look and you go Oh, there's the throw-off, but you know, it's not a throw-off. It's just a way to Basically Control those guts that are on the bottom, you know the snares but So that's that's neat to find out about that. I know what it was called. Yeah, I mean, it's just you know Snare strainers existed for a long time before a throw-off was added to that. Exactly. Yeah, and Yeah, do you know where the term strainer comes from? I mean In in the the you know terminology of drumming. Yeah, I I don't I can only imagine it it has to do with Um, some strainers have have guts passing through individual holes punched on some sort of retainer. Yeah Um, kind of looks like a strainer. That's I Sure, I say this purely anecdotally. I don't know that at all But that's sort of what I always kind of imagined was the sort of anemology of that word. Yeah, that's a good point Um, one thing too that I'm like, you know, I I think it as you know, 2021 guys right now We're just sitting here talking but you kind of like take for granted sometimes that even the rope For these drums dating back as early as we've you know started with 11th and 12th century Like someone had to make the rope. I mean, it's like it and making rope isn't easy I mean, these are not like Head out to like the local music store and pick one up Watching people make I've seen some videos of like making medieval rope. It's like that's an all-day thing. I mean you're It's just insane. I mean, it's not an easy process. So every bit of this is very very Um, I'm sure you don't Treat your drum poorly. I'm sure it's very important to these people and you know the player Yeah, I mean I I although I use very few Historical or period manufacturing techniques. I do kind of geek out on that stuff. Yeah, and uh, yeah, man Some of the the craftsmanship From that time with the total lack of modern tools or methods or materials really blows my mind Yeah, uh, and and yeah watching watching rope being made and like You know the way they did it several hundred years ago is pretty badass. Also some of the machines they made back then You know these these belt driven or or gear driven like really really super clever Like they were crazy good engineers. They just didn't have the stuff we have. No, yeah, we're probably less Like we don't use our brains as much and I've said it on a previous episode A year or two ago, but there's a show called secrets of the castle and I found it's on amazon I always watched it on youtube, but it's These people where they're building a castle and everything is period correct in france and every single step of the way Everything is done like that where it's making paint is out done with all of the like It's insane making water wheels to make things turn and get that like it's wild. So I reckon everyone I'm gonna have to check that out, man. I I really really love stuff like that You'll love it. It has nothing to do with drums, but it's uh, it kind of does to make you appreciate things like this about Yeah, I mean, yeah All these different assets like I said, you know, I'm such an instrument nerd and I You know being a brass player. I have all these all these You know instruments dating back between 100 and 200 years and I just I just love this stuff I I love learning about how how these things were made and why and and that that interest extends to Armor in particular. Yeah, um, which uh, yeah, I'm definitely that nerd I am that's cool. But uh, but all kinds of things, you know building houses building anything I don't know at least really cool. I do too. We're all Most people listening to the show are nerds. Yeah And we're happy about it or we're in good company. Yeah, all right So, um, maybe one thing too that like we haven't glossed over it But obviously like you can't have a drum without hitting a head So the the animal skin the calf skin or whatever kind of animal it was, um That's a whole interesting process there. That's an hour long to that's multiple long episodes in itself But maybe touch on that a little bit. Yeah, I mean I I really don't know anything about tanning hides. I can say that, you know things that are Now done with with chemicals at the time were done with with vegetables or um, actually, I think that they there was some Something from like a cow's brain. There was some enzyme or something that they would use I I might be making that up, but I'm pretty sure I'm not. Yeah, but but the process is crazy, but um Yeah, I mean any kind of animal hide was was sort of fair game for these things. I mean, obviously we think of calf and goat as most common Yeah, but in some parts of the world they use fish skin. Uh, oh That's crazy, man. I mean, I would love to try one of those someday, but I guess they don't come around, uh You know, I'm in Cincinnati and not many fish drums floating around Yeah, I know right. Honestly, I don't even know what what culture that's from I just I just know that's a thing that exists Yeah, um, and like I said, this is such an infant topic, man Like you could never know all this stuff and and my experience is With this is very Eurocentric just because of like my own music education and Uh, my own interests in like like this country's history and and european history and stuff like that But it's I mean it's such a huge hugely broad topic and really cool all the all the Different sort of innovations and how these instruments were made and why and oh, yeah, yeah Cool. Well, um, so getting back on track here with the rope tension stuff. Um, I think we were kind of in the Uh 18th century. Yeah. Yeah, sort of the the Mozart and yeah, and while we're going so so the the Rope tension drums would typically be a snare drum and a bass drum. Is that correct? Yeah, I don't know when Well, okay and timpani so and timpani um I don't know when tenor drums became a thing I I I think tenor drums were always a thing It was just a drum that didn't have a snare on it Like the way we think of like there's snares and there's toms and there's bass drums I don't think those distinctions were particularly clear because like We only have those distinctions because it's what composers call for whether we think of a composer in the Um orchestral sense or a composer in terms of like, I don't know dave grohl Like he's got his toms is kicking a snare, right? Yeah, um You know the the term composer can be used really broadly and and we use the instruments that composers call for so You know before that I don't know performance practice became standardized like You know, it's it's just a drum man. This is what this drum sounds like like so um But timpani are a separate thing so uh some sort of kettle drum The the predecessor of modern timpani Was something called a naker or knacker. I'm not sure I was pronounced but Uh, the earliest depictions of that that I'm familiar with are like 10th or 11th century And they were copper bowls maybe like 10 inches or so in diameter And I don't know like like six to eight inches deep probably And you see a lot of of depictions of people playing these things. We have two of them Just like hanging off their belt two drums appeared to be about the same size Uh, there seems to be some argument, you know, when you kind of read about these things, uh, historians kind of disagree about You know, why why were there two drums, right? Were they different pitches were the different sounds? Uh, the general consensus seems to be that the the rather than having two different pitches Like they don't really care what the pitches were it was more two different sounds. Mm-hmm I've seen at least one depiction Where the two drums one had a snare across the top. Oh cool I've seen uh, well, I've read some some people sort of Uh theorizing that you know one drum was vented and one drum wasn't so that one drum You know would would have a different sound quality one would ring and one would be dead Except I don't know if you've ever like plugged the hole in the bottom of a of a Tempano, you know that it doesn't change the sound so Um, you know that that can't be it unless there was something more to it. Sure. Um, yeah So Uh, but those instruments, you know, it was these very small copper bowl single headed drums and and because the bottom was was closed You know, that's sort of like to me one of the defining things about timpani, right? Like the bottom's closed, which means the the fundamental frequency is is phase canceled. So you're only hearing from the second partial up and You know, that is a defined like like I say snares toms bass drums I don't know. They were just drums until composers sort of codified what those things are but Uh, timpani are different because the bottom is closed and so therefore you don't hear the fundamental frequency Um, so to me that is the one thing that historically has always been its own category. You know what I mean? Got it. Yeah, okay So so yeah, so and those those are originally rope tension too and and eventually those drums got got larger and um You know another Sort of effect of of the closed bottom like you lose the fundamental frequency But also the the pitch and sustain are more clearly defined and so then you know, eventually What we know of as timpani were born um But yeah in terms of like tenor drums or things like that. Yeah, I don't I I think that was more driven by composers than sure anything else Yeah less and I mean it obviously seems like now we're more in the This is used for military or like brass bands and things like that. Yeah in this They the century that we're discussing now. So okay, that's good to know then Uh carry on where do we go from there with the the evolution of this stuff? Um So at this at this area my my knowledge and from an orchestral perspective gets pretty fuzzy But from a military perspective, I you know, I know a little bit more. So if we're if we're looking at like The 18th century around the time of the American Revolutionary War like Most commonly you would see drums that were square sizes somewhere between 16 by 16 and 18 by 18 Of course sizes weren't standardized because it's not like they were mass produced heads Like you make the drum then you make the flesh hoop then you tuck the calf skin on and who cares what size It's whatever size you want it to be, you know what I mean? Yeah Um, but generally speaking somewhere between 16 16 and 18 18 was really common These drums like we said before did have counter hoops and some kind of snare trainer with snares on the bottom Uh in the American Revolutionary War there there weren't any bass drums. You see like fife and drum groups and stuff and groups doing sort of like period and like historically informed performance From that time period they often use bass drums because that sounds good, but but they they didn't that wasn't a thing Um, especially not with field music which makes sense because how practical is a bass drum on a battlefield, you know Yeah, I mean like that's it's bad idea. No, that's the core of a lot of this stuff It's like it's no it's seriously. It has to be practical. There's no one cares if you're like don't hit the drummer It's like no you can't walk around with a 36 inch bass drum Yes, it's not it's not gonna happen. No And in fact, you know the the way drums were used in terms of battlefield communication there's even Well, I mean there's treat assists and stuff and stuff written on this But there's a lot of popular misconception like the the sort of like romanticized idea of the little drummer boy It just wasn't nearly as much of a thing as our culture these days would you know, have you have you believe? But uh, but but yeah using using drums and fife and drums Both for battlefield communication and for you know, just soldiers entertainment things like that But I think that tradition actually comes from switzerland Uh, and I think it was brought here by that dude that dude that um Oh, I can't remember his name But who who came to help george washington and basically took the the continental army And just trained them like they were they were a mess and this dude this swiss dude came And in fact speaking of rope drums, uh rudimental drumming in switzerland They have it's it's a very very rich tradition and fife and drum in switzerland is like crazy popular at this festival every year called foshknot which is a giant party of fife and drum and everybody's super into it and Yeah, it's it's it's a very popular uh tradition there But the to the best of my knowledge that uh, the use of fife and drum in a military context comes From switzerland that was brought to this country Via this dude who helped there's even there's a Episode of drunk history about this. It's hilarious. I just can't remember the guy's name. It's not uh Friedrich wilhelm von stuben. Yes, it is. Okay. Yeah, I just pulled that off the top of my head. I did not google that Nice. No, I'm kidding. Of course. I googled that. Oh, okay Well, you are correct That guy. Yeah, so although he was not a musician He is he is at least to the best of my knowledge partially responsible for the fact that We in this country have Used drums as part of our military tradition So we see we see those drums and and if you look at In so these drums from that period in this country at least Everything that I've ever seen was made of wood most typically steam bent With re-rings, of course, because you you need them when something's steam bent There were some drums that must have been made by coopers at the time that were stave drums Because they really just look like barrels with heads on them But uh, but you know when you think about it at that time, you know They needed drums and anybody who was a decent woodworker could you know come up with something, right? Yeah Yeah, really and But in in europe at the time, there's a lot more brass shells um shallower drums Uh, I I'm not real clear where we are in history, but like if you look at the french revolution um So I had to do I had to do a reproduction of one of those one of the drums like the For the Bastille And it was it ended up being uh Was it 14 by 16 brass? Uh, they rope the drum slightly differently It was a really cool drum. That's awesome 14 by 16 is an awesome size for a rope tension field drum by the way cool But uh, but speaking of that in this country as we get towards the civil war Uh into the 19th century the military drums became shallower Which kind of makes a lot of sense because you know, you get you get that faster articulation like you you know Shorten the drum and you have a little less bite to the sound But but the articulation becomes more clear and there's sort of that more immediate response um And uh, in fact, there's what's referred to as like the contract size like the contract drum, which was the union army The confederate army was obviously a lot less regulated just because that's was their situation the union army more so so the union contracted a number of manufacturers to make Uh drums for for union army regiments Those were typically 12 by 16 12 by 17 Uh, I can't remember exactly what the contract specified. No, I think I probably should look that up before we talked But no, but I I think in the noble and coolly episode they kind of talked about that. Um, oh probably they made some of them Yeah, they were like they went from toy company to drum company and then back to toy company Yeah in that kind of span there, but uh, but yeah, that's super interesting And I think like uh, like soisman and elie brown, uh, as I recall going going back to that time period of the drums that you see a lot of um Eli brown drums are are kind of What I what I think people in that in this sort of rudimental drumming community sort of look at It's kind of like that strata of areas of of rope tension trumps Really? Um, I've yet to get my hands on one, but uh, but they're they're really cool instruments um But yeah, so we get into this time period and and so the drums are shallower And uh, and the snare systems have changed So now we're into instead of using the j hooks. We have a pinch bar Which is which is holding individual snare strands On the on one side and some kind of snare anchor on the other Which frequently just a piece of leather with holes punched in it um and uh That was actually a pretty great innovation because it is a dramatically more responsive snare system than the j hook was It's easier to adjust It's just it just works a lot better. Yeah, still no throw offs, but it was uh, it was just a definite improvement Uh, we also see bass drums not on the battlefield, of course, but military bands at the time Would would have bass drums and snare drums And cymbals actually i've definitely seen Uh photos of civil war bands with bass snare and cymbals Yeah, makes sense. I mean it's It kind of goes back to the janissary bands in uh, turkey where it's like, you know, you want to be big and loud and Yeah, show off and cymbals Certainly are loud, so yeah Yeah, and I think that You know, I I don't know to what degree sort of that that kind of like battlefield intimidation or or off battlefield intimidation was came into play as much as it was, uh, you know entertaining the troops or serving as Kind of a status symbol when they when the the uh regimen would come to a place Yeah, or whatever, you know, I I think that they had a lot of uses just as military musical ensemble suits today Uh, but it definitely it definitely did of all we still had fives in the civil war, but it kind of That kind of gave way to bugles At some point around there there were still fives, but bugles became a lot more of a thing for for military communication um But uh, but yeah, that that's when we like to me we're kind of getting into a much more What we think of as a modern snare drum. Yeah, it's still rope tension but the snare strainers are closer to what we think of as as modern stuff and um You know, obviously we're still using skinheads for for a long time Sure. Yeah, but the drums are getting kind of the sizes are getting more like what we think of as a marching snare and Uh, it's getting closer, you know to what we recognize. Well, it seems like you know You have to find out what works you have to find out what should become more standardized and it's like, okay This works we can quit like kind of like now. I mean, it's like we like the modern-day drum set It's not really changing that much because it's Pretty effective and it works well for everyone and it's standardized and all that um So, but there's still trends, you know, it's like in the 80s super deep tom's were cool And then you know, they're not like they will be again. We all know it. Of course, you know, but uh But that's like, you know, these these kinds of trends like It's not all you I guess what I'm trying to say is not all utility like even in these military situations There were still like like style and trends and things like that that People just they thought it was cool. So this is what we're doing now, you know Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of style and trends and stuff. Um, I guess it wouldn't be trends, but I really like looking at the various Like artwork the painting on the side of the drums. I think that's awesome and just to kind of think of It's someone it's not, you know, laser etched on or like screen printed on it's someone painted those drums, you know, that's What a cool job Yeah, um, there's uh There's a lot of surviving examples of that. I think it was a little less common Um historically than than what surviving examples might suggest, but also a lot of people, you know soldiers, they're like What else you got to do, right? I'm gonna paint wherever I've been on my drum. Like, yeah Um, that was definitely a thing. There are some surviving drums that on the inside of the drum have a lot written about like Kind of like a almost a diary Not shaking your drum apart every day because especially the rope tension drum is a giant pain in the ass, but just think that I was like, um Every night he's like, okay, here we go. No. Oh my god. No, but like But you know, you'll you'll find some of these instruments with on the inside is some kind of record written out um, and speaking of of painting if uh If if anyone out there is is interested in having artwork painted on their drum There is an artist named Virginia Wilco Stafford in uh Milton, Connecticut who is pretty much She's she's the one There's a there's a handful of people uh around here that do it for the rope drum community who are quite good But in my opinion, yeah, virginia is where it's at so you can look her up. She's awesome. Um but uh also, uh, we're we're currently working on a set of drums for west point for the hellcats and um Virginia was unavailable and we had the guys at woodshed stage art actually Print direct to the veneer that we're using for the outside play of the drum shells Which is a super cool technology that I didn't even know was possible But it looks awesome So, um, yeah speaking speaking of artwork, you know, it's interesting to think about like everything else You know the way we do that has changed too like yeah, and uh, I don't know It's cool like the the progression of innovation of all these things. It's really neat Yeah, it's more graphic design at that level of yeah laying it out and then um cool well So We're in the civil war era then now, right? I mean I I think it's kind of like I guess we were doing the american revolution and then you know and on but so civil war From episodes i've done in the past, um it's Like that is a very very like I guess maybe I like how you're dropping some of the like Misconceptions out there, but like a lot of times people think of that as being like the heyday of of modern, you know Rope tension drums, but like maybe that's just because we see that the most as like American guys Obviously, you're in Boston. I'm in Cincinnati. We see that of like um Civil war rope tension drums. That's what happened, but after that it's sort of withered out as being the like the the the go-to form of You know military-issued tension on the drums. Is that sort of correct? You know, I don't know when the switch to rod tension Happened, I mean, I think that a lot of why we we think of it that way as you described is because There's photographs from the civil war. You know and and then after the war like I don't know how many Photographs of orchestras are you looking at like how many photographs of an orchestra you're gonna find a history textbook, you know I mean, yeah, really, um just from 1870 like Yeah, but it was definitely still a thing and um You know, I would say, you know late 1800s Early 1900s. I'm not really sure when the first rod tension drums happened. I I think um I think it kind of came from banjos. Yeah, I think you're right. I think as like Kind of that's how banjo pots were made with with the screw tension and and then they started applying that to drums and Um, that might not have been the the first but I think that that was sort of one of the Significant influences to switching to that system of tension. Hmm. Yeah, that makes perfect sense and the banjo As has been discussed on the show before it was like an immensely popular Instrument back in the day. I mean, I think a lot of times, too It's because it just cuts really clearly in the you know through. Oh, yeah in an acoustic setting Yeah, the the frequency content of that it makes it just cut a lot better than a guitar. Yeah, for sure Um, but yeah, so so rope tension drums did fall out of favor One one thing I'm sure that in fact, I think you've even heard you mentioned this in past episodes Uh, so, you know, we get into the into the 1900s and we're solidly like rope tension is is fully passé until we get to world war two and This is something that's always been really fascinating to me. So in in world war two There were so there was so much um Sort of like nationwide involvement in the war effort, you know And everybody had their victory gardens and and and all and all this stuff and and the the war rationing and all that Well, all manufacturer in the u.s. Was sort of uh subject to these these laws of war rationing So there was a law that said any product manufacturing in the united states could not be More than 10 percent metal by um by weight So, um, that was a real problem for music instrument manufacturers, right? So there's a lot of metal and and many instruments at the time, you know metal snare drums and things are really popular and You know, they're like those, you know, like the berry bass drums, right the collapsible bass drums and stuff for like for like you know gigging drummers and metal drums were really popular And so when world war two came and and all of a sudden there's all this metal rationing and now they can't use metal anymore Uh, all music instrument manufacturers had a problem. So the brass instrument manufacturers like con and king or whatever they retooled So instead of like trumpets and trombones and tubas and stuff. They were making artillery shells Out of brass. Yeah, the drum companies sort of addressed this two ways there was uh For like drum sets and things they just they just made everything out of wood wooden lugs and wooden hoops and wooden everything So you got like the rolling bombers that was at slingland, I think slingland. Yeah, and uh, like the victory series I think that was ledi maybe I I know there was victory I think I might be wrong but victor I think was Ludwig and I think victorius was wfl I remember that because I'm like, come on guys Lidie had one too. I can't remember. I think you're right about Ludwig. I can't remember the lead one Dreadnought it could be dreadnought so for for uh For drum sets, that's what we did but for marching drums they went back to rope tension So the us army commissioned Uh That I know of the commission wfl and gretch to make Uh, they're marching snare drums. They were 12 by 15 And uh, I know they commissioned wfl to make four or five thousand. I don't know how many they commissioned gretch But I've actually restored a bunch of these now like Probably four or five of the wfl's and three of the gretch. Nice And uh, it's really interesting, you know, they You know, it's just they're they're basically made the the same as they were before it's just like they couldn't use metal So yeah rope tension works out great. Um, the wfl is actually if you ever see one of these They're usually not that expensive when you find them on ebay and stuff But if you find one of those wfl drums from world war two, they're awesome Like the couple that I've restored have turned out Just really really great drums And essentially you look on the inside and you There's clear evidence that they were hastily made. You know what I mean? Like there's glue drips and stuff and it's like You know when you open the drum up, you're like, wow, man, this was this was done in a hurry But they sound crazy good. They're awesome. The gretch ones. They're okay. Um, yeah They're decent, you know, but but the wfl world war two marching snares are killer Those are cool, too Because even the snare strainer like that the mount for the snare strainer is made out of maple The the screw and the the thing that actually holds the snares those are both made out of metal but Um, and there's metal on the uh on the ears. There's like a metal clip at the top of the ears but other than that it's all wood and uh Yeah, it's just it's really interesting to me to to sort of look at how The musical instrument manufacturers handled those challenges and oh, yeah and looking at those those military drums from that time period They're they're really cool. Yeah, I didn't I mean, you're right That has we I love talking about that topic on this show But I really didn't know too much about the the rope tension kind of making a Comeback which makes perfect sense. It's like, you know, why not? Uh, yeah, why not do that now? okay, so talking about then and now almost but like Does a rope tension drum and I feel like your answer is going to be yes because you're the rope tension guy here But like does it have a place? within a as a drum set player or is it primarily just really for marching Um, I mean it seems like the obvious answer is it's duh. It's for marching but Would Could you integrate it into a drum set? You know, obviously in the 40s 50s or now really? Yeah, if um, I so I made one. I'm actually making another one right now Fully rope tension drum set if you if you go on youtube and you you search uh, Mike Dawson Calderwood rope tension. Yeah, you'll find uh, he he did a review I don't know if it ever made in the magazine. I can't remember if they published that one or not, but um, he did he did a review of a rope tension drums that I made a while ago, but um, yeah, so for a couple reasons Rope tension drums are cool because for one thing they have free floating shells, right? So, you know, you have some some additional resonance there and um Because there's no metal on the drum The overall like there's less mass in total which means the resonant frequency of the whole system is lower. So it can it can um Support lower tunings and still resonate without like getting flappy or like farting out. You know what I mean? Yeah, so you have a wider tuning range and uh With the because they're free floater or Honestly, I don't even know why it's just like a function of of the way the instrument behaves They're not pitched like timpani or pitch or anything like that, but they have sort of a A little bit more clarity to the to the to the tone or to the pitch Um, there's also an interesting thing where tuning wise although the rope doesn't like slip around the drum well There are somewhere it does but but generally speaking that's not that's not really a thing Nevertheless the tension around the drum kind of evens itself out sort of So they're really easy to tune but one of the really cool things about a row tension drum set Is that on the kick drum and the floor time in particular? You can do pitch bends kind of like on a rototom cool So like with a floor tom if you hit it and just grab one or two But what really just one will do it grab one ear and push it down You'll get a solid pitch bend and um awesome You can all like with a kick drum for instance while you're playing the the top three ears across the top of the Drum which you can totally reach You know you can go from like a real tight punchy sound to like super low and flappy Just by shoving those three ears all the way out to the end of the drum So like while you're playing you can dramatically change tunings Um or in between songs, you know, you can go from from a big flappy sounding kick drum to something real tight and jazzy Uh, they you they're super fast and easy to tune because you just move the ears up and down and um And even moving one ear can have a big effect. It's like with a rod tension drum like if you detune one lug You you can't really fully detune One side of the drum with just unscrewing one lug And even if you're going to do that it still takes a while to fully unscrew one one tension rod, you know Yeah, and it's loud You're cranking and it's awkward and you drop then you drop it you drop your tuner Yeah invariably you drop the drum key your tension rod falls out or something Yeah, but yeah with the rope tension drum you just you just grab one of those leather ears and just just push it up or down On the drum and you can change tunings totally on the fly So for you know, like the jazzers that like to get really cute about having super melodic Solos, you know, we're like trying to quote part of the head or something like it's You know, it's effectively like a slide whistle at that point where you can just grab an ear and move it up And down to get the pitches you want. That's awesome. Um, yeah, there's really cool applications It's they sound great and um, and if you're interested in those kind of like fast tuning changes I mean changing heads is kind of a pain, but um, you get used to it It really doesn't take that long if you if you do it a lot. Um, yeah I'm actually change heads on a rope drum in like 20 minutes Um Not too far off from you know, if you're kind of taking if you're not like using a drill and doing it super fast That's not that far off from like, um, yeah from a regular drum I mean, that's me going as fast as I can so it's you know, it's not exactly a one to one comparison But but I mean the point is it's not that big of a deal to change heads But but that is definitely the downside Um, but but yeah, it does give you an interesting an interesting dynamic Instrument in a drum set context and they're beautiful and you have the cool factor of like No one else is going to be like, oh man, he's got and I love them But like oh, he's got a cnc kit too Which are awesome drums, but it's like they're very popular No, there's not you know, if you show up at a gig and two guys have complete rope tension drum sets, then That's like, I don't know buy a lot or take that would be crazy. Yeah, I know, right Um, man, that's awesome. You're you're doing some beautiful work here. Um, so As we're getting close to the end here, I want to just kind of say real quick. Did I miss anything? Are we, you know, is there anything else in the history of this? Uh, have you Seen so we talked about world war two and then after that was it sort of kind of still a Uh, a little bit of a niche kind of thing I I'm not aware of any mass production of rope tension drums after world war two. Okay You know the fife and drum activity kind of held on throughout and There are manufacturers here and there and of course cooper men was an industry standard for a very long time and Eames for for a long time like in the 70s was was making a lot of cool drums and um, and you know Gus molar You know made those and and Andy reamer Andy no bill reamer his son Andy reamer. He's the tympanist of the what Pittsburgh Symphony, I think He still makes rope drums too, but kind of only as a side thing his dad Bill reamer, uh, who had drummers drummer service. I think in uh in pennsylvania If you've ever seen the the LA Philharmonic, they have that huge just beautiful rope tension concert bass drum Uh, I I can't remember if it was Bill or Andy Reamer who made that but it's a reamer drum. So, you know, there've been people making these things all along but but to the best of my knowledge There's no mass production of rope tension drums since world war two got you well Even further than you are doing a great thing by by uh amongst the names you just mentioned keeping the tradition going um And all that great stuff. So um, what got you into this? How did you get into these super old school? You know type of drums? Uh, it kind of kind of from a few different angles. Actually, I've always been super into to history Uh, particular area of interest for me has always been the civil war. I was born in texas Was there until I think I was nine we my family moved to new hampshire So having lived on both sides of the mason-dixon line has been a really interesting perspective on on learning about the civil war and and sort of the history of this country and I find all that stuff really really interesting and I'm just super super passionate about musical instruments, man I just I really really love musical instruments and and the history and how they evolved and why they evolved that way and and how like Literature for those instruments impacted the design of instruments and vice versa And all that stuff has always been really interesting to me. In fact, when I was like I think 15 or 16 I I found some old like like an old Leedy probably like 12 by 14 Marching style like one of those like from the 50s. There was like single tension, you know Yeah Drilled holes in the hoops and like made my own rope tension drum, which can't kind of work But uh More recently the kind of specific impetus for this was I was teaching the the 4h fife and drum core in uh here in Massachusetts And I'd never I've never been involved with the fife and drum activity before I didn't really know much about it, but a friend of mine who's a really fantastic fifer She was teaching that she was teaching the fife line of this group and she'd lost her drum instructor and So we were talking about that. It was like, oh, you know, I could probably do it And she's like you you do rudimental drumming and I was like, well, you know, I mean I'm not familiar with that style. But I mean I've taught drum lines before like how hard can it be Yeah As as most things when you say how hard can it be? It's hard. I was I was surprised. Um, yeah But I mean, you know drumming is drumming and rudiments are rudiments And although the the style is it's very very different from like, you know, if you're March dci or whatever like it's a really different style. But I mean, you know, it's still a drum line trying to play clean beats, right? So um Yeah, so I started teaching this drum line and and I learned a lot I'm also not a drummer by the way. I'm sure we'll talk about that eventually, but what why are you on this show, dude? I know, right? Um, I mean I play drums obviously and I've got a lot of experience teaching drums Mostly from my my roommates and best friends in college all being percussion majors um I actually went to college for tuba, but uh, anyway Uh, so I I've taught a lot of drum lines and written a lot of drum line books and stuff like that so I I started teaching with with my friend lacy at 4h 5 in drum core and Yeah, it was it was a lot of fun. I learned a lot. We we we did a lot of cool stuff, but their drum line was these like ancient kupermans that were just beat to hell man and so There's not a lot of people around that can really work on these things or fix these things and take them to kuperman wasn't Really very practical and I was like, man, I know I can do this So I started taking them apart and I just kind of figured it out and You know did did a lot of work on them, uh Came up with a way to make a a drum press using just like a harbour freight, uh shot press cool, and Yeah, I just just kind of figured it out and then as I was Doing this I was like, yeah, you know, I I bet I could I bet I could make these and I'd already been making conventional rod tension drums for a little while and Uh, and then the the thing that really started it was when I was teaching the younger brother of of one of the bass drummers Was this kid named dunny. He was five years old at the time And he had this little toy drum with like just skinheads tacked on both sides And he would play this thing constantly and like as a five-year-old this kid was like actually pretty good I mean, you know, he'd be playing like in the the side of the the Jim or I think it was no it was a cafeteria of like a middle school where we rehearsed and He'd be there like playing along and obviously, you know, he's not like really playing the parts But like he's actually getting the accents and kind of you know, super precocious kid like yeah, cool Yeah, it was really cool But he he put a stick through one of the heads on his his little drum And the kid was just like Beside himself like inconsolable So his mom comes to me. She's like, can you fix this? and I was like, yeah, I can but um I bet I could Just make him a new drum that was like a child's eyes replica of the drums his big brother and the group are using and So I did I made an eight by eight rope tension snare drum For this for this it's it's and you know, I finished it to match the the drums that the the older kids were using and It was it was adorable But that was the first rope tension drum that I made was this This little tiny eight inch by eight inch for this kid and and I was fun you know, I had to like custom like I had to Fabricate all this snare hardware and all the everything because it was so tiny and Um, but yeah, that was the first one I did and then I was like, this is this is cool, man like I I don't know. I really kind of got into it and started making more and um You know years later. That's this that's what I do now. Yeah, really man, and they are um Just beautiful beautiful drums, which it's a neat thing that there's so many ways to tension a drum Over the history of the instrument. Um Let's take a quick side note and I I before we wrap up. I want to give a thank you So I don't forget to I I know him as a single name, uh, mr. Bayles. Oh, yeah He just came in as the an email saying Bayles, which was like, well, that's yeah, brian Bayles He just we all call him Bayles. Okay. His name has been revealed brian Bayles Thanks for suggesting this with bill because obviously, you know, again, we met we've talked but Things just like there's so many of the little like irons in the fire where I'm glad sometimes it takes a poke to Yeah, man life happens like what are you gonna do? Well? Yeah, exactly. We both have young, uh kids and have been um doing the dad duty so um Now um bill where can people find out more information and see your beautiful drums and you know everything about you So the website is just Calderwood percussion.com. Um, we've got a lot of stuff on youtube Uh, also just under you know youtube.com slash calderwood percussion. I think um, yeah And if you look on youtube, you'll find a lot of uh, just product demos, you know people playing the instruments I used to be really good about doing shop updates and then you know pandemic happened and so we've been trying to do You know, we we used to be really good about doing shop updates pretty regularly, but like, you know pandemic happened and and So I spent a little bit more kind of catches catch can but we're gonna try and do more of that but there's a lot of uh, sort of build videos and and showing how we make stuff and and and why and and things like, um You know, we got this drumming here for repairs and and we can't tune it because the bearing edges are all messed up And this is how we're going to fix it and so we try to have some stuff that that is Uh, kind of educational and and sort of like practical to be like, hey, you know Some of this is diy stuff like you can you know, if your drum has this problem. Here's how you fix it And um, or if you know, you look at the that and you're like, ah, that's not a project I want to do you can send it to us and that's cool um So yeah on on youtube we have kind of a wide variety of things and uh, if you're a fan of of the show hamilton There's a few videos there on on how we make the drums that are in that show. Um, yeah And uh, oh and we're we're actually working on a bill video That we of course filmed a while ago, but never got around to editing for we made this this monstrous Um 90 inch bass drum for otter university in kansas So there's a bill video for that one coming which which should be pretty pretty cool because that's kind of ridiculous Well, so bill you kind of uh, you're you're i'm glad you're revealing my uh, what was going to be my This is what we're going to talk about on the patreon bonus episode was the oh, yeah the amazing You know your role as making drums with hamilton the movie and the musical which are kind of obviously one and the same but um Uh And how that all worked how you got involved with that and then also I want to hear about that gigantic drum Which I remember kind of thumbing through your you had like a photo album of it. Um, yeah And just mind blowing so cool man. Yeah, we'll talk about that in a minute then Yeah, so so uh, uh youtube and the web page Um on facebook. It's just calderwood percussion on instagram. It's at calderwood drums Um, I'm not so good about facebook. I'm pretty good about instagram Um, try to be pretty good about youtube. Oh also on bales page Uh bales has been while he's been here in the ship bales. He he works here. Um I mean we've been friends forever. We play in bands and stuff together and uh He was kind of part of calderwood percussion when it first started and then you know, like you say life happens And he was doing other things for a while and and now he's back in the shop Usually a couple days a week and he's been doing kind of like shop day Videos and so on his youtube, which I think is bales 5000 on youtube. Um If you're interested in watching stuff get made, you know, we we make a lot of stuff. Yeah That's awesome. So yeah, if you're interested in checking checking out, you know, what what we're doing here and um You know rope tension is my thing historical stuff is my thing, but we make everything man, you know, um All if you hit it to make music we'll we'll we'll make one. So yeah, that's cool. That's what in our, you know Early conversations. That's what I learned is like, okay. Yeah, you're not just a drummer You're you're a full-on, you know enthusiast master builder I don't I don't go through on the the word master here, but uh, but but uh, we do the best we can and um Uh, I I think we we are students of of the of the art form. Oh, yeah, but um for sure But but yeah, I mean, you know trying trying to come at this from from uh a pretty diverse perspective and and kind of a well-rounded sort of musical background and um Yeah, man, we're just we're huge nerds for instruments. Well, I think you're doing a good job And and I just want to spell so it's c a l d e r w o o d calderwood percussion Um And as I mentioned before like usual on most episodes in the you know recent couple months Um, we are going to do a patreon bonus episode, which will be 10 minutes usually 15 minutes where if you um You know if you pay two bucks five bucks a little extra money, um every month you get some cool bonus content early episodes And bill is going to tell us about uh, like we discussed his involvement in hamilton, which was just like a You know mega success Um and the gigantic mega bass drum that he built Yeah, man Cool. Well, um on that note bill. I want to just close this out and say thank you so much for joining me and thanks to bales for uh getting us in touch, um And uh, yeah, everyone check out calderwood percussion. Thanks bill. Yeah. Yeah, man. Thanks for having me. It's been fun If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history And please share rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning