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Welcome to modern-day debate filling in for moderating today is myself and snake was right Today, we're gonna be debating on should the national minimum wage be $15 If this is your first time here feel free to consider hitting that subscribe button below And we're trying to build a community of here are people from all walks of life Also before we get started, I would like to let everybody know that if you enjoy the speakers You can find each of their links in the description below as You can hear and find them there as for the debate format today We're gonna be having 10 minute openings with 30 minutes discussion with five minutes closing and then 15 minutes of Q&A So as far as Q&A questions go feel free to fire them off in live chat And we will be gathering them together as fast as we can So make sure to list at modern-day debates So we see that your questions are coming through and we can grab them as fast as we can also super chats are an option as That allows you to make a comment towards one of the debaters that you will that we will read during the Q&A and For the debaters that we can have a quick response and now handing it over to snake was right if you wanted to Take us along All right, so I was paying attention more to that back and different topic yet. Oh Yeah, no problem we Matter of fact, let's give each of our presenters here since it's one of their first time just a real quick opening statement about yourself or your Your if you have a website or a YouTube channel Just a few minute introduction by each of you whoever would like to go first feel free. Sure Brenda. You can go ahead. Oh Okay, my name is Brenda van Azen. I am a 60 year old a male to female trans woman and I am Interested in debating on atheist versus theist Various or various other either political or philosophical issues. I have a YouTube channel However, it does not have any content I don't have the the ability right now to to make content because my computing systems are quite Modest it and however, I'm looking to improve that in the future and will perhaps be making content at some future time. I am I Considered myself a liberal Democrat Democratic Socialist a A progressive whatever you want to call it these days an atheist and and You know philosophically I identify with you know naturalism and things like this and I'm just looking to enjoy myself having Debates with with people in a situation where it doesn't devolve into the usual Mess that sometimes happens in other venues and so I appreciate that the opportunity to use this forum And thank you. Thank you to the moderators and to modern-day debates And we're all about that civil discussion here on a debate and the great debate community So how about Chantel Rome you go next? Yeah, so obviously it's a pseudonym It's the Twitter handle that I use at Chantel underscore Rome on Twitter and I find myself here as Similar to Brenda that I love debate. I love ideas. I love talking about ideas In the opportunity to do so in everyday life is few and far between I think that kind of have quality conversations about really tricky and in-depth topics is difficult And so I watch a lot of debates online I've watched a lot of stuff on modern-day debate in other places and Was just really excited to have an opportunity to debate minimum wage Which I think will be really fun and interesting topic a lot of nuance a lot of good facets there to kind of go over I again myself personally. I've been really interested in learning about economics and philosophy and Psychology and that's kind of the path that I find myself on Very excited very very grateful to have a forum like this at modern-day debate, which is you know a lot more accessible You know other places You know one's done by Jean Epstein in or intelligence squared those places obviously are you know pulling some very large names And it's really fun to be able to have this kind of Discussion so accessible to kind of everyday people so other than that. I'm excited to get going Awesome Great. Have you guys decided who would like to go first on that? We haven't um, I mean, I would Brenda you've done this before I would defer to you to start things off if you don't mind Brenda are you okay with that? You're muted. Yes. I was muting myself. Um, you wish for me to go first Okay, so the pros of raising the minimum wage are that it increases economic activity its first job growth Minimum wage reduces poverty it reduces government welfare spending The minimum wage that was passed back in 1968 has not kept up with inflation and that's another reason to to raise minimum wage now improvements in productivity and economic growth have outpaced The increases of the minimum wage since 1968. So that's one another reason we should It reduces income inequality and income inequality is is harmful to societies because it builds up a lot of resentment and conflicts Due to due to in to gross income inequality They would house also help to reduce race and gender inequality increasing the minimum wage would Raise the incomes of people who make slightly above my current minimum wage So it would have a ripple effect. It would also increase worker prop productivity reduce employer turnover and and another issue reason to increase minimum wage is that Current minimum wage doesn't is not sufficient to allow people to afford housing people spend way too much on on more than is recommended on on on housing today And so raising their minimum wage would would allow them to afford afford better housing and and People are not able to afford everyday essentials people spend too much on Or can barely meet or are in in in There they it's there in in I'm looking for a word there in what what's called like The food they have food anxiety which means that they from month to month they may or may not be able to afford enough food to eat it would lead to healthier A healthier population overall lead to fewer prevent premature deaths It would increase school attendance decrease high school dropout rates Reduce the federal deficit and reduce crime and so all of these These are all the reasons that I think that we should raise the minimum wage there would be negative effects from raising the minimum wage, but I think that the positive effects outweigh the negative effects and that we shouldn't focus exclusively on the effects of labor and employment Because raising the minimum wage has has rippling effects throughout society that would be beneficial even though perhaps Small but or minimal loss of jobs might occur though those losses would be temporary and Outweighed by the more positive effects of raising the minimum wage. I think I'm done With it sure Sure, you only went three minutes. Well, okay. We that just gives us more time to talk it does for sure I'll put that in. All right, and whenever you were ready. I will begin time on your first words. All right So I think that there are three components to this debate. There's a philosophical and moral component There's a logical component and then there's an empirical component and really to start off that minimum wage Really what it is. It's a trade-off Minimum wage trades the freedom to pursue a lower wage if that's in fact preferable in some cases For a higher wage that might be unattainable for some lower skilled workers It trades the success of more skilled and experienced for Cutting hours or firing of the less skilled an experience It trades only the possibility of some workers with higher skills earning more money in the short term For the certainty of faster moves towards automation in the short and mid term It trades the jobs from smaller businesses where employees might have more bargaining power Towards larger businesses were less Gale by employers for higher wages, which might ultimately represent a total net loss in compensation for them So those are the trade-offs we have to kind of look at now kind of diving back in the the philosophical and moral component Obviously, we're here because we care about people. We don't want people to suffer especially needlessly we don't want them to Not thrive. So it certainly is human beings is the reason for this discussion And so I'm sure that we could all agree at least on that much and so, you know in making these vast Sweeping kind of policy decisions. We're talking about a national $15 minimum wage that would have enormous implications across, you know, so many different communities and Making those types decisions certainly should be not should not be done lightly So, you know, clearly that that is kind of the impetus that drives us in trying to sort these problems out Looking at things logically. I mean economics is not necessarily a science But it certainly attempts to study and observe the mechanisms that control and run our economy We can observe a number of true facts regarding basic supply and demand We could look at the general toolset that employees have and employers have in negotiating labor I mean the critical item here is that we're looking at payroll costs the minimum wage artificially raises payroll You know beyond the market level that it's at currently when that happens employers have a slew of options and this is why it's so tricky to nail this down because They're not forced to do any one of these things they can do one of these things or You know multiples of these things. So the the different options that they would have Many of which are when payroll goes up the things that they decide to do Have a direct negative component towards the human element, which is again, what we're most concerned about So in terms of things that they can do they can become less profitable they can go out of business They can increase their prices. They can attempt to make their workers more productive. That's a bit of a double-edged sword I'll come back to that they can cut other expenses difficult to do they can cut ours not good They can cut workers also not good They can also not hire new workers and increase the responsibilities on existing ones now. These things are not speculative They're not Conjecture these are real decisions that employers have to make So what we want to do is we want we would want to survey and see you know if that holds true so Lloyd quarter who's a phd who did a study On behalf of Carnegie Mellon University did survey people in the restaurant industry, which has a very high percentage of minimum wage workers So they found out that nearly one third of business owners said that they would be probably forced to go out of business 18% said they'd be very likely to close They were 50 56% said they'd expect to cut employee hours 50% said they'd have to lay off people 33% that said they'd have to look for technological alternatives to replace workers Nearly half said they'd be forced to make changes once rates reach $11 an hour and almost two-thirds 68% said that they would absolutely forced to respond in those ways when the minimum wage reached $15 an hour So, you know, these are very real choices and all of those things that we're talking about are not good for employees now There's a fundamental assumption that the minimum wage Allows people to take home more money. That's not entirely true What the minimum wage is in its very simplest form is it Forces employers to pay a higher rate. That's it. It doesn't force them to give people more money That only happens if they actually work hours or if they're employed um, so a couple of other things that are pertinent to the kind of logical portion of the argument would be that Um Less than three percent of the hourly workforce earns a minimum wage Which that's right around the average in regards to history. It's hovered between two and four percent If we bump up the minimum wage to $15 an hour, it would encompass roughly 44 of hourly workers. This is a huge shift and when economists look at this it gives them a ton of pause to try to figure out Wait, this is going to have huge disrupting Generally negative effects So moving quickly because i'm sure i'm probably running out of time here. The empirical side is also extremely important This is where we try to get hard facts observations things that we can see from history So moving all the way back to when it started fair labor's act or fair labor standards act of 1938 was 25 cents Right around when that was going on Union leaders in the railroad industry were or thinking about the exact same thing But for entirely different reasons than trying to raise all boats through a minimum wage They wanted to keep out non unionized black workers from undercutting them And they weren't they were at a loss to do it Were they able to come up with an industry rule that was a minimum wage That priced out low skilled black workers from being able to work in the railroad industry effectively This happened again in the 1960s. The minimum wage wasn't extended to all industries They picked and choose for whatever reason and so they decided in the 1960s to extend it to the farming industry When they did that that that policy when it took effect had immediate effects for employment Over 25,000 low wage farmer workers lost their jobs in the mississippi delt region alone at that time Fast forwarding. So we have some really recent research that's been done on this um employment, uh, let's see economic survey in 2016 This talked about raising the tipped minimum wage in new york Now there's a minimum wage and there's a tipped minimum wage two different things So one particular restaurant tour who had roughly 4,000 people in various restaurants around the city Decided that once that tipped minimum wage went up in new york, which was a pretty drastic jump He had to figure out what to do. He opted in this case to not fire anybody but not replace anybody So he through attrition Cut 1,500 jobs from his staff because they were not replaced So when we talk about increasing worker productivity, that's a double-edged sword If he doesn't replace people there's additional responsibilities that those other people have to take on that is not necessarily And they may have to take it on to a point where their quality of work or their quality of working at a particular job goes way down Again, uh, seattle minimum wage a university of washington studying 2017 They found that the average rate of pay went up three percent. Uh, seattle raised their minimum wage quite high Uh, it's one of the highest in the country if i recall But the number of hours that those people worked went down by nine percent So when you factor all that in and do the math their actual take-home pay went down 125 a month If you extrapolate that out across all of seattle, roughly all seattle lost out on 100 million dollars of of take-home pay Uh for all those uh different individuals Two minutes What's that go ahead two minutes left. Thank you. Uh, so very quickly. Um, we would want to also then look at I mean, I've got there's other studies that I could state but I mean long story short We would want to talk to economists. Obviously, these are people that are experts that study this stuff We would want to rely on their expertise and their nuance so again survey of Um economists on this particular topic and just to kind of you know point out there's been, you know Some famous economist erin dubay's professor of economics at um, you mass amherst um, ronald erinberg He's a professor of industrial labor relations and economics At the university. He represents both of them have favored minimum wage, but have not favored the $15 minimum wage They believe that the detrimental effects far outweigh any of the positives that would be created so briefly other economists 88 percent think an acceptable federal minimum wage should be less than 15 dollars 88 percent 74 percent outright oppose raising it to $15 um One third 38 percent think that an increased rate will actually lead to increased poverty rates Um, 27 percent say that it might be reduced 19 percent said it would be unchanged and 16 percent are unsure. So there's a lot of there's a lot of room there Uh, but by and large more more people overwhelming the majority of economists think that um That uh bringing it up that high would have some seriously detrimental effects. Um, you know, obviously People that are uh, represent the cons side of this argument are sort of like the party of no, I suppose and so I would offer several alternatives I think that increasing the uh, earned income tax credit, which is currently I think the top of it's at $6,500 That's what helps bridge the gap for low-income earners That's a much better tool than the minimum wage The minimum wage actually goes to a lot of people that are not near poverty at all They happen to be like, you know, somebody that is part of a household That um, is already doing quite well and they're working part-time, but they're counted anyway They are the biggest series of that. So, um, there are other alternatives, but I'll end there All right time All right We're about to move it to our discussion portion, which is now 37 minutes because of the time given up and um before we do just another reminder if anybody Disagrees or wants to make a pose a question to any of the debaters feel free Make sure that it goes to modern day debates that we see it and uh We are going to jump in through the discussion portion now So 37 minutes Okay, all right all right and time Okay, uh, I don't know where to start. Yeah, there's a lot here I mean we definitely need to kind of just wouldn't you know take take one One little piece of this elephant and see what we can do with it. Yeah Yeah, I I don't um As far as I can tell it you know from the sources that I have read into They they say that while there are minimal while there are negative effects that those effects are minimal and that the the rippling effects of increasing minimum wage Um, it is such a benefit that it outweighs any kind of Any kind of uh negative effects there's always going to be positive as positives and negatives, but Many of many of the uh positives. I think seem to outweigh any kind of negatives for instance You know on redo on on uh You know reducing crime reducing The high school dropouts So let's take let's take reducing crime Yes, yeah, let's take let's take reducing crime. So One of the studies that I was able to find um actually talks about uh increased crime And the reason why that that might be Is because of those detrimental effects of raising the minimum wage, which um would include Um, basically making it more difficult for lower skilled or low experienced workers to enter the job market Um, these particular people Uh tend to be uh of a younger age. They just don't have uh, you know that job experience That would allow them to break into the market at a higher wage rate and because of that You know, it's the old adage. Uh, you know idle hands are the devil's workshop. And so there are uh a number There's at least one study that I read that Very definitively looked at minimum wage rates and increased property crime And it actually showed that as those minimum wages rose In those categories where you have, you know, kind of the 16 to 21 year old, uh category Those people are just idle and they're they're trying to find a job But they can't because of that higher wage rate that they don't have the skill or experience for And because of that they're looking to do other things and some a number, you know Some of those people choose to make some poor choices and and commit crimes and actually minimum wage increased crime uh crime statistics specifically, I think it was property crime in that case Well, there are other studies that indicate differently Studies of crime rates, uh And the minimum wage in new york city over a 25 year period Found that increases in real minimum wage are found to significantly reduce robberies and murders a 10 percent Increased in the real minimum wage results in a 6.3 to 6.9 percent This decrease in murders and a 3.4 to 3.7 decrease in robberies You know I just don't you know Because because people are able to afford um Are able to afford to live Right. No, and so so this is a good point. Um, so two things there. I will number one. I would say Obviously in this in this particular topic of debate um It is a really tricky business trying to uh to either refute Or uh support or otherwise go through claims of fact, right? Um And so You know in that obviously this is going to be a little tricky as we have maybe different studies that say contrary things Well, here's here's what I would say. I think logically I can understand at least generally where you're coming from As far as if if I have enough money to live then my you know, the alternatives Of me, you know committing some sort of crime Obviously that looks like a less You know attractive alternative, right? So I can appreciate at least to some degree that if I actually have more Money to spend or more money in my pocket or or more money to You know get through life and not be you know living hand of hand to foot um That that that that alternative would be not as attractive Um, what I would say though is that that only makes sense for those people that are actually able to Uh realize that higher minimum wage. Does that make sense in other words? If I if I get my hours cut or if the business that I'm at goes under because it can't afford to operate because of a higher operating cost And so I'm I'm worse off See how then that person in their desperation might you know resort to other alternatives in that desperate moment Well, generally what this you know the the effects of a minimum wage increase Are usually born in in things in the service economy, right? And they're mainly absorbed through higher prices And these prices are quite modest actually because if they deal with such a large scale So, um Yeah, I mean what I the only thing I would say to that is that again, you know in my my kind of opening statement Looking at all the different choices that employers have to make Um, you know from from all the different stuff that I've read Um, and even from that story that I was talking about it did talk about raising prices Um, although many of those other alternatives including cutting hours laying staff off Looking for technological alternatives Those were all surveyed quite high as well In terms of their likelihood to do those things So it's not a foregone conclusion that people are just going to raise prices And then that's going to be the end of it. The other thing I would say to that is that in raising prices Um, you're you're making yourself less competitive. Um, you know if coffee is an extra buck over here I'm going to go to the other coffee place. Um, you can only push that equation so far even if the increases are modest Um, you know, it's probably a little bit more weathered in a good economy But certainly in a poor economy people are going to pinch pennies and those businesses that are running those You know razor thin margins, but have decided to try to creep their price up Those are the ones that are going to get dinged and people are going to end up losing their jobs Right, so I have here. Um, this is a This is a submission by michael rike on uh to the university of california at berkeley and his and his um his statements with regards to proposed, um increase In the minimum wage and he said he says that we have a roadmap of its of its likely effects on employment Provided by the fine findings of the best recent minimum wage research by economists improvements in our research methods and data provide a more reliable roadmap than economists could provide in 2016 We no longer have to guess how the effects of minimum wages on teens or restaurant workers translate into effects on all workers The newest studies supersede estimates from from the older ones These studies indicate that raising the minimum wage will have minimal to no adverse effects on employer unemployment And they will have substantial positive dynamic effects on the lowest wage areas of the united states Okay, so one thing I would say is that if he's making the claim that um, there is one silver bullet study That supersedes all others. I think everyone should immediately kind of raise an eyebrow to that The level of consensus in the minimum wage debate amongst economists Is not even close to settled in any significant fashion Um, one of the things that I would call a question there and that uh, now I don't know that particular study But it seems to me that there are um From what I've read of studies that seem to purport That there are very minimal effects um Is that it's the way that these these things are measured right So just to give you an example when we talk about say something like household income Which would seem like a very straightforward item household income is really the incomes that are based in that house at that physical address Now if there are multiple people earning money at that address Then all of a sudden that household income is quite high But if there's only one person it's quite low It depends enough you count that as a household or as an individual once you count break things out to an individual All of a sudden the numbers change dramatically So in economics the the statistics and the way things are measured the methods are very squirrely And uh, there's a lot of different assumptions that can be made Um, and so if there's this sort of claim that one study above all studies This is the one that's going to like fix everything and everyone can kind of hang their hats on I could almost guarantee that there's a whole handful of other economists that would pick apart that study and go well You know, he didn't do this and he did that um With studies of the type that are proponents of it again, and I don't want to go too long here um One of the things that they do that is clearly more of an inaccurate statement And it's the best way I can put it is be like if you um If you had a pool and you were going to measure the depth of the pool and you threw a brick into the pool And then you stuck your measuring device in and it's kind of hard to measure because it's kind of sloshing around and you go Ah, you know, it doesn't really look like there's much of an effect And then you throw in uh another brick and attempt to again measure the depth But you're not measuring the depth based on before there were any bricks You're measuring it from when you put in the first brick That's how they've been sort of calculating minimum wage over the years to where It's these very small increments. They measure one from the one previous to it But not one from one further back and Meaning that the going theory is that The time it takes for employers to adjust is actually a lot longer than the short term studies that are being done to study it Hence why they would have little to no effect and that no effect portion Is because part of it falls within the margin of error So they can say well the margin of error is two percent and it was plus or minus two percent So maybe no effect. Well, um, so, you know, those those are things though that you would want to um Again, if we were economists and we could kind of really do a deep dive that would be my immediate criticism and question about studies of that type Uh, well, I wasn't citing a single study. Um, the the the person who gave this testimony was was talking about newer studies that were studies that were newer than 2016 um And and and he he simply makes a point that minimum wage effects are concentrated in a small number of industries You know most notably restaurants retail farming janitorial services security guards home health care Residential nursing care things like that and the minimum wage costs are mainly absorbed through slightly higher prices in these industries and and and part of my argument is is also that these raising the minimum wage has such a a positive effect in other areas that it ripples through the economy It ripples through the the society in such a way that um those benefits outweigh any kind of small negative Effects that would that would be taking place Right. I mean again, so to to refute that I would say, you know, I mean, uh, the Seattle minimum wage study That's ongoing done by the University of Washington. I mean, I think that's That is one of the best case scenarios for minimum wage. I think I mean in there could be others But I mean Seattle has Amazon they've got Boeing nearby. They've got a lot of other very, you know, uh, You know high-powered industries just kind of happening there. They're very affluent city There's a lot of money happening there and so for them to be able to Decide to raise their minimum wage Up to you know, one of the highest in the country and then for the average employee pay to actually go down By 125 dollars a month. I and that's in 2017. I don't know what to tell you I mean, there are clearly other studies that are, you know Pretty definitive in there, you know in their assessments that that that minimum wage increase was not good It is, you know detrimental effect. I mean one of the other things that we're not really talking about too We could bring up and discuss if you want Um when you talked about productivity, um productivity can really that's a double-edged sword. I mean you can You can increase You know people's productivity only to a point and you know the three small things that I would point out with productivity would be number one They may be asked to be so productive that working at that job is just hell Right, it's just awful. Um the thing that I would cite there would be amazon I mean amazon boosted their minimum pay to 15 But we hear all these stories about people working in amazon warehouses where they're like They're tracked and they can't go to the bathroom and they got to run around like crazy to pick all these things They they they're trying to squeeze every dollar out of that So when we talk about making workers more productive and we talk about the human element, right? Because that's what we're really kind of talking about quality of life and people thriving and doing better Um people people hate that people hate having to be like robots, right? Well, I think that some of those like when you when you ask for that much when you Set price levels at a certain point for that type of work The the employer is going to need more out of you. That's just I mean It's either that or if he's losing money employing that person then what's he to do? Um, well, he can take a hit I mean, he doesn't have to he doesn't have to for he doesn't have to force his employee his employees to wear diapers Right. I'm okay and and don't don't give me your arms. I'm not condoning that for what for no, so I would I would I would I don't know what they get paid, but I would you know as a I would have regulations in in place and that's why we have workplace regulations both for safety and for health um, you know I I guess we need to have regulations about diapers you know We do because the the impulse the the the incentive for the for for capital Is to is to ring every sent out And if they could dispose of their workers, you know in a meat grinder, they would Yeah, I know I would have disagree. I mean, I know you're being you know Well, you should serve but I mean in general Yeah, the companies don't like turnover generally Yeah, and so increase in the minimum wage increase in the minimum wage Reduces turnover Um, it reduces turnover, but but there's the the downsides out of that is that they don't necessarily hire more people After the fact so that when we talked about we're talking about the raised tip to minimum wage in new york I mean Yeah, like no one got fired and everybody everybody kept their job at the second somebody left He didn't hire anybody back and then that load got transferred to the remaining people. So it's You know, there's less turnover, but you know at what cost If I'm running if I'm running a restaurant And I don't have enough wait staff to serve my customers I'm gonna hire more I mean, obviously every uh, you know every Business is gonna have to make those calls But again, you know, it goes back to what I presented in terms of the options available to an employer Right, why wouldn't why wouldn't I wouldn't why wouldn't I hire more people? I've got tables here, and I don't have enough people to to to wait on those tables I have to have another I have to have another wait waitress. Um handling those tables I'm going to hire them if he can get away with with not hiring people You know, maybe he had too many people beforehand I mean, I certainly when any company gets squeezed, you know The the efficiencies all kind of get broken out and we try to find a way to kind of cut the fat, right? I mean, yeah What I'm saying what I'm saying is is the is the owner is not going to leave money on the table If he's got customers coming in and they're demanding service. He's going to meet that need right unless unless Hiring people at that higher rate for whatever reason is actually unprofitable In other words, all the costs involved of hiring another person If he's actually at a net loss now, I'm not saying that's the case for him But I'm just saying like there would be a reason why uh an employer would would actually make that choice to not hire someone Because if it's not profitable to do so, they won't do it. Um, and by raise artificially raising those costs Um, you know that that's gonna that's gonna put the pinch on You know, and I I think this idea that you know, kind of what you had said earlier about well You know, they don't have to force people to work so hard. They could just take the hit I mean, yeah One of the misnomers about the people that are employed in America is that you know Over half of them are small business owners So, you know, some of those startup business owners that are really just small mom and pop You know running a roofing business and you know, there's Uh a lot of loans and other things that person has to take out to get that up and running I mean, maybe the owner is barely making it as it is And so for that small business when the minimum wage artificially gets raised to $15 an hour to say well They should just take the hit like that's pretty much the end for them And and the fact that the the you know The that 50 percent of employee people that are employed are coming from those small businesses I mean, that's like it's it's it's going to transfer a lot of people to larger businesses where they have less bargaining But the thing is more Walmart's the thing is is that I remember a lesson. I read about a long time ago is Henry Ford Raised the wages of his employees sufficient so that they could afford to buy the product I like what you did there. Yes. It's good. They could afford to buy the car Right. So they so this has has a a snowballing effect You raised the wages and you increase general economic stability In your in your society in your local economy And and then that just has a as a snowballing effect. I mean it isn't it isn't in isolation I mean, I think this is a great point though and I would I would I think this is a great point, but maybe not in the way that you think in that That was Ford's Paragative and he crunched the numbers and realized he could do that and it would benefit in the long run The problem is is that if there's a bureaucrat making a decision for someone else saying We think this would be best for your business, but it's not actually good Then that that won't have a positive effect So I think the the point is is that Ford chose to do something that we can all kind of logically get behind But he was able to do it in the context and in the time period where it made sense When where it made sense for Ford and the thing is what I would posit is that $15 minimum wage Across the board nationally does not make sense. The negatives do outweigh the positives Yeah, I just don't see that because I just don't see Business as like an isolated system that exists independent of the society in which it's in So if I'm a small business and I'm And a number of businesses in an area and and the The minimum wage gets raised Then you've increased the economic stability of that area and that's going to benefit you as a business again, it It is an assumption to say That and again, I realize that the assumption that you're making is based on what on what you read and obviously we have There's a lot of you know It's not just an assumption I mean there's considerable amount of studies that do back the back this up by you know back You know under the previous administration right and again, so what I would say to you that is obviously There's portions of this debate that we can have that are claims of fact that are going to be very difficult to tease out and really Um, you know pinned down as to which in which study is the most or more accurate one? Certainly, we can logically deduce some of you know those elements um You know, obviously if you have a study that says it that raising the minimal wage increases the the Economic stability in that area You know unless i'm obviously looking at it or saw it ahead of time and and was able to kind of go over that There's not much I can obviously To talk against that what about a a more moral question, which is um Employers that pay very low wages to the workers um Are basically Parasitic on public assistance. For instance the the usual example being walmart Depending on public assistance for for their employers their employers are told to take out um To go to welfare to supplement their income and so basically basically These these employers that are underpaying their workers are being parasitic on the on the public um on the public money and and the depending on uh their their employees Having to take out Public assistance in order to survive and in order to work at their at their place. And so I think that that's sort of a moral Uh a problem there, which is that shouldn't that shouldn't be that shouldn't be the case so So would you then recommend that we get rid of welfare so that wages could go up? No, I would I would put in regulations that requiring them to pay their employees a living wage Okay, do you see what I'm saying? Like that would be the criticism right of welfare programs is like well When you put Money always follows the path of least resistance. That's just a general principle. And so to say oh, well, let's put all these um, let's put all these uh, you know, uh welfare programs and other things in place and then uh, you know It's only a matter of time before a business would figure out that that's actually a subsidy for all businesses now Whether it's moral or not you know I think if we were to assume if we it would be the best system that would uh force people to live Uh properly with where morals didn't have to be a part of it But I don't think that that will ever happen. So to ask whether that's a a moral question or not I mean, I don't know what to do that other than yeah, you know, it's if if there's money grabbing CEOs sitting in the back room going Ha ha ha we don't have to pay him anything because because welfare You know, I'm not I'm not making Yeah, I'm not saying that they're being deliberately this way I'm saying that they're getting for that that um those companies are being uh pushed by market forces to that direction So I'm not accusing them of being evil conniving people But they're being pushed in that direction And so what we need from from government are our rules and regulations that restrict that because In the at the bottom end if people can't um survive On on on the on the wages that they earn from a company Something's going to give Because people have needs um Because people People are not robots, you know, you don't shut down at the end of the day robots don't need to eat They don't need a place to to live. They don't need a house right so This is this is a this is a severe problem if you deny people these basics they're going to They're going to um, it's going to be result in a lot of social problems I totally agree and so really it's it's again kind of what goes back It goes back to what I was saying earlier about trade-offs, right? So minimum wage is a trade-off. It's a choice There are other choices. There are other things that we could do to to uh affect uh, I would say Uh, both ends of it, right? So on the employee end who were to talk about that on the employee end They've got they've got input and output, right? They've got income coming in and they've got the expenses and bills and such and so that's money going out So you can you can affect both ends of that, right? You can affect the income end And you could do that through a variety of different means But you can also affect the output end and it sounds I mean, I think certainly from from an empathetic standpoint, you know, obviously Um, you know looking at people's situation where they're they're earning x amount and you know Basic housing costs a phenomenal amount and it seems just an untenable situation Again, like I'm not you know, I'm not yeah over by any means. I certainly feel for those people I have been in that position myself briefly growing up I'm trying to make ends meet. It's tricky. Yeah But I think there's other solutions that are better than minimum wage minimum wage is very a very blunt kind of Kind of catch all tool especially to do it. Here's here's the thing at the very least I think maybe we could both agree and I don't I don't know if I can get you a degree to this But I'm going to try that perhaps we could both agree that to say that we should cart blanch make a Flat 15 minimum, you know $15 minimum wage across the board in america Is a very unintelligent solution and that? Oh, no, no, I don't agree with I don't agree with that at all Okay, none of the sources none of the sources that I talked about most of them talk about incremental Incrementally raising the wage by 2024 Right and also adjusting Adjusting it for the living standards of the area. Obviously you're going to have very vastly different needs In new york city versus, uh, louisiana Sure, but why why do it incremental if it doesn't have any negative effects? Why not just do it all at once? Well, it does have negative effects. I Outline those positive effects. They're minimal. So so you increase it slowly You're right little to none, right little to none. So if it's so small and people are hurting now I mean the you know, it's a fight for 15 now Why not why not do it now if it has so I mean that that would be my question I think the answer to that is Because we all know deep down that it actually does have a hugely disruptive effect To even raise it inch by inch like there are disruptive effects And that's why they don't do it all at once because they know that Well, the fact that they're disruptive effects and doing something quickly doesn't mean you can't do it slowly so Right, but what i'm saying is it's a it's a bit of it's a bit, uh, uh disingenuous to say that You know, things have little or no effect at all And so it's you know somewhat benign to raise it, but we're going to raise it a little bit I'm like, well, which you know, it's it's sort of like, well, which is it really? Well, so so my my My political goal and my my political aspirations are that We get to a point in society where where people are able to Live happy and fulfilled lives and and currently that's really not possible. And I what I want are a suite of of reforms of minimum wage would be one But I would also want regulations on businesses For instance, the recently and regulations on on the rent here class So recently I just read about in new york city there you can now Have you can rent for instance a bunk like maybe the top of a bunk bed for 1200 a month This is just insanity Why why is that the case right? Well, we need we need rent control. No, no, no, no, no, no Why why why would the price be so high? Right like why why does it cost so much to to find a place to sleep in new york? It's extremely expensive to live there. It just is it's high demand. I mean, I agree with you It is extremely expensive But no the reason why is because there's not enough housing, right? It's such a population dense place that when you cram that many people into that small an area You just cannot flat out build enough You know the units for lack of a better term for people to stay so you're naturally going to have that rise in price and You know it that's not that shouldn't be surprising in any in any way like that would be basic supply supply and demand kind of situation and to to decide to not build more and yet artificially say these can only These can only you can only charge x amount for these things now obviously that's gonna You know that's gonna have some interesting effects that go on. I mean typically what happens in rent controlled places It's really difficult To have those places be places that people want to live because at some point or another the cost of Maintaining and keeping up those places is going to outweigh the cost that's being or the the income that's being put into them And they're going to end up, you know being just kind of hellish places to live in spite of every You know good-natured regulator that's trying to make that a better situation at some point or another It's all going to go to pot because they're not making money In any significant way and that building will either remain vacant or torn down and then you'll be at a net You know loss then you and you'll be in a worse off position than before Okay, so we seem to be have gone off topic a little bit. Yes, we have Sorry, I you streamed it out there and I I ran down that trail. I'm sorry about that Yeah, I mean So there are there are on the pro side There's growing numbers of business owners who who are who are backing a $15 on our minimum wage a business organizations representing tens of thousands of small businesses have endorsed $15 minimum wage Um I'm offered that if businesses voluntarily want to do that and can afford to do so I have no problem that I have no problem with you know Businesses deciding that the lowest person that's going to get paid and our company's going to be $20 an hour. No, it's it's Mandating it to the point where it is illegal to pay someone less than that That's that's really a larger issue that I would have That's the proper role of government is to is to do those things You can't you have to have you have to have a government Authority to set down what the prices are I would totally disagree with that but that's that could get into a whole nother kettle of fish But no, I guess what I'm saying is that if if I'm there are plenty of scenarios where Uh, if a $15 minimum wage would be enacted where somebody coming say even an immigrant that's fresh new to the country Um, you know, maybe they are used to a very low standard of living for whatever reason I'm not making assumptions that's just saying in this particular case And they're perfectly happy and fine working for 10 bucks an hour if they could find a job You know at that rate, but it is illegal to do so So now they have to find a job that's at $15 an hour and now they're competing with people that you know Maybe he doesn't know the language, you know, maybe they don't know the language very well Now he's competing with people that know the language. It is going to be extra tough for that particular person to make ends Neat. Why would you take those options away from in, you know an immigrant? That's just trying to find something to get started. I think that's one of the bigger You know cruxes of this debate is that these people on the low end are have to be counted You know just as valuable as people that get that that are more skilled and have the benefit of being able to Um, you know realize that higher wage five minutes. I don't I don't buy that I don't buy the idea that that racing the minimum wage harms low wage workers Okay, so um That's that's a great then we need to stick on that for the last five minutes here. So say that say that again I don't buy the idea that raising minimum wage is harmful to low wage workers I think low wage low wage or low skill Because there's there's a that's a pretty defend you that's a pretty, you know, big difference So in other words, somebody that is has no experience or no skill in a particular industry if they're trying to You know get a job in that industry, but they're having to compete with higher skilled people And and now we've upped the ante by saying well instead of paying $10 an hour We're going to have you they need to pay $15 an hour The employer is going to go listen. I need the best person I can find And that person is not going to be this lower skilled person I need a higher skilled person than that and since they are offering a higher wage It's going to attract more people looking for that higher wage job There's going to be more competition and those low skilled people do get bumped off, you know off to the side I mean does that I mean am I does that make sense from a logical standpoint? Is there a in an intellectual inconsistency I'm presenting somehow? Yeah, I just I'm not certain that um low skilled workers would would would be harmed because That would simply be the floor that people would would need to um Be paid So I don't I don't know how how why it would help why it would harm people well, okay, so if there's you know in any Right, so when you talk about like the floor like that's kind of like the key point That floor though is not a floor where no one is competing for the same job Like in other words, you know, if I put out an ad out and say I want I need a a roofer, right? Somebody to to you know join my roofing company You know, there might be 10 12 15 guys that think yeah, I could be a roofer and I'm gonna out of those 10 or 12 or 15 I'm gonna take the best one, right? So those other guys especially ones that are low skilled or just like You know have no experience whatsoever. I'm never going to pick them as an employer. I'm just saying like logically like why would you Why would you if you had to say like this person has to be productive? They have to be able to roof. Well, I'm going to look at the options that I have in front of me And I naturally I'm going to pick the best one like That would be a good thing because I don't want unskilled people doing my roof I don't want these unskilled groups. Let's let's say Um, let's say they're immigrants or non-immigrants. I just don't want uns or just unskilled kids Uh on my roof trying to fix it. I mean that that's a problem So it would be it benefits me as as a customer To have skilled workers fixing my roof it benefits me as the employer And roofing isn't actually that skilled. I mean, it's not that it's labor intensive. It's not really conceptual work Uh, no, I mean certainly to be uh, you know as I've roofed before I would say no It's not rocket science But the finer points of roofing Once you have them down and you have enough experience and you can do it quickly That's where there's money to be made and those are the people that make those Uh, you know the business owners money that's fairly quick That's a fairly quick thing that most people can pick up rather quickly You have a team you have a team that's skilled and you and if you need somebody new you bring them in and you train them up It's not terribly difficult. No, I I I could understand that but I I think what I might the basic point though Like you see the basic point that I'm trying to make though. Yes Um, I I don't see how it harms them because Okay It benefits everybody to have skilled people doing Um or our relative competence at these things. Sure. Um, how are we doing for time guys? 20 seconds, so okay We can wrap it there. I mean, well, it feels like we've hardly touched on it to be perfectly honest. I there's so many different things to this It's a do we do a wrap up? Do we do a wrap up? Is that Yes, you will have a five minutes closing statement each of you. Oh, okay. No. Oh, Jesus. That's gonna be tough Yeah, yeah, it's not a lot of time Uh, because q and a is quite a while 15 minutes on that which we'll get into after that but uh Since time's up on that. Um, bro, would you like to do a five minute closing? Sure All right. Um, so brenda talked about a lot of different things she talked about She she talked about uh productivity Talked about uh incoming inequality, uh a number of different topics I feel like I've done a pretty convincing job of kind of refuting a number of those even from just a logic standpoint obviously claims of fact and other studies are going to be really difficult to um To really kind of pin down unless we're directly looking at them Um, but you know some of the things that I think we could probably I could probably wrap up on uh would be You know in terms of uh income inequality again, minimum wage does kind of a crummy job at that. Um, only Only I think it's like 20 to 30 percent of people that are earning minimum wage are actually at the poverty level There's a lot of people that are earning minimum wage that are far either either above the poverty level or far above the poverty level So when we talk about the minimum wage Um, you know helping income inequality like some of those are going to like the kids of you know People that are making a couple hundred thousand dollars a year like they're making minimum wage. Um, that's not really Changing any kind of income inequality at least in that, you know particular respect Um, you know, I think I did a pretty good job talking about um the the choices that employers have to make Um, you know one of the other things that I would probably uh say to that I didn't get to say earlier was um There's a lot of exceptions in minimum wage and I think that that should give us pause that because of all these exceptions like tipped wages um I talked about uh people that are have disabilities. They uh have some exceptions there one of the biggest ones unpaid internships Why in the world? Well, we're fighting for $15 minimum wage. Are there unpaid internships? And I'll tell you why it's because the experience the networking all the things that you can learn are valuable And that's what I want for low skilled workers that are trying to break their way in they want that experience That's why people are willing to work for no pay. I mean, that's like that like that's a huge point against minimum wage. Um I mean, I've been really loving the discussion. I hope the questions are really quality. Um, and I've really enjoyed uh debating with Brenda Okay Do I go next? Do we have any extra time on that? Yes, we had uh, he left a lot early. We have two extra minutes to go All right, all right, so um, just uh, just um going off of what he said about um unpaid internships that um employers who offer unpaid internships will be the first up against the wall A little bit of humor a little bit of humor. Okay, so the effects of uh, gradually raising the minimum wage Would be lifting pay for tens of millions of workers and reversing in wage inequality The typical worker who benefits from a $15 minimum wage is a 35 year old woman with some college level Who works full time? She would fewer than 10 percent are teenagers and more than half are prime age adults between the ages of 25 and 54 More than half 50 percent are women and 60 percent work full time 44 percent have some college experience and 28 percent have children and they get 52 percent of their family income comes from their minimum wage jobs So raising the minimum wage would have a tremendous effect. It's it's not going to greatly benefit Um teenagers because there are only 10 percent of the minimum wage workforce It would have a tremendous effect on those people It would have an effect. It would be positive effect on people of color It would have an effect on on like I said on crime and on on general health and well being people would be able to afford enough to eat It would it would simply benefit workers all across all across the country In all areas across the united states single adults without children will need at least 31 000 a year What a full time worker making $15 dollars an hour Earns in order to achieve a modest standard of living So so these these are things that the country needs to do Businesses back raising the minimum wage to to $15 an hour our economy can afford a minimum wage increase and research high quality academic scholarship confirms that there's the benefits of the minimum wage the raising the minimum wage outweighs any of the costs Workers who can work less still come out even There's a significant turn in the low wage labor market as many as 10 lowest wage workers leave or start jobs every month So some of any decrease in the number of new jobs created will mean that there are workers who will take more time finding a new job Or have have to work fewer hours But who will not see a drop in their annual earnings because of the wage increase So people will be able to work less Employers that pay low-waging um also employers that pay low wage Wages force the workers to turn to to federal Internet programs and that's that's a significant Problem that I think it needs to be addressed also So for for a number of reasons not just Not just the economic ones, but the social ones raising the minimum wage having people who have Food food security and housing and a stable working environment and a stable general social economy um And their working economy is is a net benefit to society Even though there might be some small negative effects I think that those negative effects are outweighed by the very positive Social good that comes from raising raising the minimum wage So i'm done All right, you ended a minute early So we will move that as well So we have 18 minutes For a q and a and snake's been helping me out with that one So i'm going to hand it over to him and he'll be reading off the uh super chats and questions All right. Yes So avidia nirvana asked for two dollars asked brenda. Why wouldn't 20 30 or even 50 dollars an hour be better? And uh angelica Surrest is the same thing Oh because um, I don't deny that there are negative effects So so massive raising of the minimum wage would be harmful and and probably more harmful than any any net benefits Right, so we're just i'm just proposing a modest increase over a period of time um In which we we gradually raise raised the uh minimum wage to levels that are comparable to what they were in 1968 Okay, chantal, uh, do you have maybe a quick question? Yeah, well the reason they picked 1968 too is because that was when um because of inflation The numbers really shifted a lot there if you actually start from 1938 and raised from inflation at that point That level is actually a lot lower. Uh, so, you know, that's why a lot of economists pick that particular point You know as far as raising it up a lot higher It's at 7 25 right now like we're basically doubling it. That's a huge That's a huge increase. So to say 20 or 30 or 40 or whatever, you know, the case might be that's It's already a huge increase able to have wide sweeping No, even if it's trickled in like that, which again, I make the point that if the if the effects are so minimal And the upside is such that it outweighs the low side Then why not do it all at once let let it be a massive benefit And a moderate detriment and we'll still outweigh it wouldn't it's still outweigh it I guess if you did it quickly as opposed to slowly, but I don't think that that's true I think it's bad if it's slow too All right, uh, so mark caesar asks, uh, could you ask chantel whether he believes in trickle down economics or bottom up economics? It's a great question. Um I don't know uh as far as trying to um As far as trying to say that giving people money at the bottom Is going to benefit, you know people better than having capital which scales at the top um, I would say you know I mean it's probably going to sound like a trite answer And I don't want to give audience members a trite answer I would have to think about it a little bit more to have a really robust answer but I think the the bottom line would be um poor people don't create jobs and so You know giving them money isn't really going to help as much As if there were there was more opportunity created at higher levels that you know, I guess put it this way Um, you know bill gates has helped the world more than mother teresa That's just a fact mother truce is amazing. She's done a lot of good But ultimately bill gates has provided a ton of jobs a ton of value created a ton of wealth He's helped way more people than mother truce has because of that scale. So I don't know if that helps answer All right renda quick response Um Yeah actually Economic activity is what increases Increases the economy and that comes from that comes from the bottom and from people exchanging goods and services Money for goods and services. So it's actually it's not and secondly It Economics deals with supply and demand and there's no such thing as just supply side economics and that's just a A con run by a con artist back in the 80s With ronald reagan there is you know There are supply and demand curves. There's no such thing as just a supply curve okay And mark caesar asks Uh, could I think shuntel provide a link to the study that says increasing minimum wage increases property crime? I'd love to read that one. Maybe you just Um and then flash gordon asks He says question should people have the right to have a flood of land if they can't survive on low wages I guess we'll open that to both people Brenda why don't you go ahead? I'm looking for that link. Uh homestead act. Um, yeah, they can have a plot of land on Mars Because we're going to need to colonize mars. No, um, I I don't think that having a plot of land Is is necessary? Um We're going to need to live in in in large metropolitan cities In in in high concentrations where not everybody's going to be able to afford Or it's just simply not going to be physically possible to have everybody have a plot of ground um, and I think So I don't see why people need to have a plot of land Okay Okay, so what's the just uh, restate the question real quick Sorry, I was kind of looking for that. I emailed it to everybody in the email chain from earlier So I don't know how you guys disseminate that but um, that's that's the link to the study that I've talked about It it was should people have the right to have a plot of land if they can't survive on low wages Um making anything a right should give us pause and we should really think about whether or not that's a good idea um, you know in other words, um To to say that health care is a right is to say that we need to force people to provide that That item whatever is that right is so um to say that obviously, you know Uh a plot of land is a right. I don't know. I'd have to that's a I've never heard that question before So I'd have to think about that. I'm not quite sure. It's anytime we get into rights I think you have to tread that ground very carefully and think very thoroughly about what that would mean For multiple angles. So my initial feeling would be like that's probably not a good idea But I don't know. I'd have to think about I actually agree I don't think that I don't think that's necessary. I don't know that would solve anything either Yeah, I don't know what the I would have to really think about the net effect of that. Um You know, I mean there's a lot of space on earth, but boy, some people would get a A crappy draw. I think it was like, oh Yeah, the purpose of the homestead act was to encourage people to move west to settle out west and to um For for the for the um for the nation to grow. So I'm not I'm only being halfway facetious when I say you could have a plot of land on mars You know at some point a hundred years from now, you know, we maybe want to expand our our civilization to mars Then then at that time a a when when the when the uh global When the when the glorious people's republic of earth That sounds like some status I I can't help but but make jokes with the glorious people's republic of earth would would would give a homestead act Um to people to encourage settlement of mars or something like that or you know I I like to make jokes. That's what I do I'm just I'm just kidding. I that's not I'm just kidding. I'm just it's all good. What else? What else we got? Let's see um if raising minimum wage is not Not evolution with something like a ubi universal basic income be a good alternative What is the alternative to help out those and in the bottom economic quintile? This is a great question and brenda. I don't I mean I'll jump at this but unless you want to go first I'll I'll tell you go ahead. I you go ahead. Yeah. Um, so This is a topic that I've thought a lot about and I'm actually in oddly in an odd sense I'm sort of split down the middle because As I've heard people talk about this and this is going to get into a little bit of Dicey territory, so just kind of forgive me if it gets a little weird and I don't mean it to be but The idea of alternatives first of all, I would say I think the earned income tax credit is a much better alternative to the minimum wage We could expand that that would target actual poor people That all many people bipartisan really actually agree on that. That's something we should do flat out You know, I think we could rein in inflation I think the fact that we printed so much money and devalued our currency to the point where the purchasing power from before Uh till now is just, you know, it's just a You know highway robbery. Um, so I would fix, you know, want to rein that in Um, so aside from some of those things as far as ubi is concerned Here's my take on ubi. I think there are I think the reasons why ubi at all should be even thought about Is the fact that I do think there are people in society from an intellectual capacity point And I want to be very careful on how I put this. I don't want this to sound like some some terrible thing, but There are people that lack the capacity, let's say to be You know, uh You know a brain surgeon, right? But as we work our way down, there's some people that lack the capacity to You know operate a sophisticated computer. There's some people that if you go further and further down intellectually They're just struggling to make it in an ever increasingly complex world It's only because of that like that Like eventuality that there are going to be those people in the lower quintile that I would even ponder ubi because It seems to me like you cannot just say to those people that are that have maybe given a really crap hand In terms of intellectual capacity You can't just say to them you have to work harder. You have to pull yourself up your boot by your bootstraps They don't have the ability to do so and I don't know what to do with that it seems to me like You know we we need not tell everybody that all of you are incapable of working But there are some people that truly are having a rough go of it and those people Need something so I don't know it's that's one topic that I'm very torn on and I honestly am not quite sure I don't think it's cart blanched I think there's right ways and wrong ways to maybe do ubi if you do you if you actually do it But I don't know I'll defer to Brenda then Okay, my my interpretation of the ubi is is it's it's a It's very much pernicious it because What I what I would be afraid of is it would simply be a way of avoiding healthcare and and medicals general General assistance for people so people what people need are is things like healthcare access to schools and medical assistance so And and we need expansion of medicaid and medicare and those issues and I I would be afraid that ubi would simply provide An excuse for for not providing healthcare for people So I I would rather Not have a ubi. I would rather Have universal healthcare and other social Programs to help people out and then possibly Once those are as fully established then possibly a ubi could be considered But I think that the ubi is really a stalking horse for getting rid of social security And and medicare and medicaid and so I I don't support that at all So the one thing I'd really quickly add is that I actually given what you're saying about that I would say that I think people Not all people but most people tend to actually make pretty reasonable decisions with the money that That they earn and giving them that money You know actually I'm gonna go off in a whole nother trail. I'm gonna just cut it out there I'm sure there's more questions. We'll just stop I know that sounds weird for me to cut myself off, but that was going to go in a whole another tangent Snake you're muted. Yeah, that was that end of the questions Um I saw one more from uh rodney borden question for brinda. It was uh, would you prevent uh corporations Or uh, sorry, what would prevent corporations from rising Prices to the point where they would negate the pay increase Um, the fact that people could no longer afford their their products I mean, I mean, uh benna corporations the thing is uh, I can remember seeing this really old issue of um, I mean really old like 1940s think about superman and um, and then this Evil scientist who was building a robot army and the robot army was going to build stuff and and there's some this person commented on that and saying that You can't really do that because robots don't need to buy things, right? So Um, people think of this in like a one-dimensional kind of thing, but it's really self-reinforcing. There's feedbacks and um The self-sustaining factors in the economy the reason that People can afford to do things is because they get paid more and they get paid more They can afford to do things which means that they can contribute more which means that they can increase productivity It's a feedback loop. And so the one increases the other So um, the ability of people to pay more means they can spend more. It's it's the actual exchange of money that creates an economic activity that creates A strong economy. It isn't actually the dollar amounts. It's it's the amount. That's why it's that's why increasing people immigrants into a country actually benefits because you have more people who are who are exchanging currency for goods and services More frequently and that strengthens the economy rather than harms it because the people think that they're taking jobs away from them They're not they're actually increasing the economy. So um, a cut business that that makes their products unaffordable isn't going to survive So they're not going to do it I think what he's saying though is that are the products more affordable be even though they raise the prices because people have more money I think it's sort of like the point there and I don't mean to cut you off if you have more I have more I was I was done Okay, uh, the other thing that I would say is you you do say you're saying it's a feedback loop But how I would kind of brain that is it's it's sort of describing The elusive perpetual motion machine, right? Like there's always going to be inherent inefficiencies and everything and in that regard you you are never going to put in X and get out x or you're going to you're always going to get minus x and so Say that you know people couldn't raise prices. This is all this is all castles in the air We're just these life forms on this planet and we're we're giving we're exchanging slips of paper for for Promises to do other things. I mean it's it's all a fantasy. It's all a construction It the universe doesn't care doesn't care about what we're doing here And you know, it's it's all our own sort of a fantastical construction We we create the economy simply by exchanging goods and services with each other Right. I mean, it's it's not a natural phenomenon. It's it's a social one And pretty soon pretty soon the the sun is going to expand and snuff us all out anyway Oh, dang it And then the heat death and the eternal a sweet sweet And then the sweet sweet embrace of eternal night, okay Well, that's a that's a great Well, no You know, it's been really a lot of fun. I hope I I hope I've been yeah. Yeah. This has been okay. This has been good Yes, any more questions? Uh, there actually was one it just came through from a person named pine creek. Did you see that snake? Yes, that's dug. I love dug I love him Go ahead and read it. I think the question was for chantel rom was a question Is minimum wage increase a good way to increase inflation to decrease the size of the national debt in relative terms Well, I don't I am not I think that's above my favorite. I don't know. I mean, um So we're talking about men raising the minimum wage to You said increase inflation To decrease the size of the national debt Yeah, what he's saying is that by increasing inflation you're decreasing the national debt Oh, jeez. Um, I mean, I I I certainly haven't looked at that close enough to be able to give a a good answer on So, I you know, I and that's sort of really unsatisfying. So I'm very sorry for for you said it was dug I'm sorry dug. I don't know I'd have to look at that a little closer to to be able to give a good answer I don't want to give like a speculative kind of off the cuff thing if I don't really know and I'm fine saying I I have no idea Well, the debate went good. That was Yeah, this went well. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it Um, yeah, I'm looking forward to more looking forward to more Very good some other time Yeah, that was that was really good. All right. Yes. Yes. We were overseen by uh king tot Yeah, I know. Wow, dude. That's quite the get up you got there. Yeah, James. I did it last time I was debating and james liked it so much I think it suits you. I think it does Yeah, you do you have the motion the king the king tot walk talk like an egyptian The head wobble The chat the chat said holy crap. That's a nice use of egyptian cultural appropriation right? Oh dear you're you're yeah That's just terrible Oh, no, what awful people we are. Yeah Yeah Well, the debate went great. Thank you everybody for watching. We hope you all enjoyed the bait wasn't really good I wanted to thank uh snake was right for helping me. Um, that was that was really helpful I mean, you wouldn't believe how hard it is for one person to actually do it Thank you, Brenda and rome for the awesome. Yeah, cool. Cool. Thank you Hope to have you guys on again soon if not against each other against somebody else Sure, I'd love to Awesome for anybody that's watching if you haven't hit the subscribe button Feel free the um, he's moving it into debates on politics and religion. Yeah. Yeah Pretty much anything So shantel you you should be happy to know that you know, I approve of you over the uh, 12 year old boy that I debated Oh goodness Because I agree like cognitively there's certain roads you could take there and certain ones you couldn't I I empathize with attempting to do that would be Very uh, very peculiar I think in that debate in that debate when we got we got to To certain parts where we were stuck and and I didn't press the issue. I changed the subject I just didn't want to come off as being too aggressive with him and he's just a kid and I I um I I felt a lot for him. So so I just wanted to explore ideas and talk to him really It wasn't really I didn't really approach it as a strong debate And and a lot of these that's all I want to do Is is approach it in it, you know, but it's nice to have a formal structure because I think that helps a lot I think so too. I hope I I hope I was a worthy opponent Um, yes, very much so. Yeah, very good Awesome. See if you wanted to wrap it up for anybody feel free Uh, sure if you guys want to uh, maybe suggest a topic that's like really specific I know you guys kind of had some unfinished Is earlier and uh, if you guys want to plug your channels or whatever you're working on right now, and then Yeah, that's probably good Yeah, I don't I I have real um, uh difficulties with my with my current pc setup I'm I'm I'm not very well off and so I have I have some pieces coming That I've been able to order to will help increase the computer power But at this time, I don't know that my computer setup would Is is strong enough to do like video editing and stuff like that. But in the future, I would like to do some Do some more makes more comment makes more content I participated in a number of different venues debating with people. I debate flat earthers quite a lot Which is actually quite interesting It's it's pretty bizarre, but I also debate people on philosophical issues on on discord And on other other places as well So, um, I enjoy it and I enjoy the company and thank you very much for inviting me and having me Awesome, and there here was a question for both of you. Are any of you doing an after show? You know as far as myself, um You know, obviously, I've uh, you know an avatar on on twitter at shantel underscore room um, and The reason I started down this path just to kind of give a little bit of background is that it's it's just really hard to have Discussions about contentious and difficult topics, especially like with friends or at work or otherwise It's just hard like people get people get angry and people are uninformed and you know to find really quality individuals That have a grasp of of what you're talking about and what's going on. That's why I got on the twitter I wanted to be able to put oh that was a mistake Thinking Discussions on twitter But it has happened I know that sounds I know it sounds like an insane thing to do but here's the thing I have found that Twitter in spite of all of its Wretchedness and dumpster fire this yeah, I stay far away from that stuff. Oh, no, but it's oh, it's so fun I I uh, you know, there is a small amount of troll in me that just Really has a lot of fun of that but ultimately it is an awesome testing ground for ideas It just is now some people just throw ad hominems and throw bombs and whatever But there are some people that will legitimately try to debate you down into the instagree into the weeds And I've found it quite satisfying to find those individuals that are actually willing to have a reasonable conversation I've found a number of them a shout out to uh, melton who's a wonderful person on twitter who I've really appreciated talking with Completely opposite perspective of me completely, but it's been super super fun. So look me up on twitter I love talking ideas. That's why I'm out there I want to see if my ideas are any good if they're not then I then I learn the truth And I am better for it and this is a good thing right I want to overcome the bias all of that and that's good I that's where I want to be I want to be better educated more informed I want to have all those things that are not true fall away and only the true stuff remain and it is painful And it is not fun and sometimes you make people angry Um, and that's happened and that's okay. That happens. Um, so anyway, uh, I'm not really doing an after show I mean, uh, I didn't know how I would do that in a way that would that anyone would watch I guess I could I have I plan to uh Check out the latest release of season three of stranger things. So oh there you go. There you go. Yeah Yeah, that's what I I plan on doing All right Well, normally that's what'll happen is the uh, is you'll take you'll go from here to your channel and then just go live And then we'll tell you how they can go there if they want to Debate you or you want to give them? Okay? Oh, okay. Yeah Channel to even I mean, I I don't I'm not on youtube at that point I mean, maybe at some point in the future, but um, if people want to if people want to debate me or Chat me up or whatever just just hit me up on twitter. I'll follow you. Well, we can dm it'll be fun All right, thank you. Thank you close it up. All right. Thanks. Bye. Bye. All right. See you