 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. I'm Paranjoy Guha Thakurtha and with me here is senior journalist Urmilesh and the two of us are today going to discuss the sting operations conducted by Cobra Post on more than two dozen media organizations which apparently indicate that the phenomenon of paid news is widespread across the mainstream media. So how corrupt is the media in India and to what extent do these revelations if you like or these covert operations where a reporter Pushpa Sharma disguises himself as a representative of a Sangatan which is supposed to be a pro-Hindu organization meets representatives of various media organizations and says we are going to pay you large amounts of money in the form of advertising. Some of it is going to be in cash. You start with advertising about religious matters and then the advertising gets a little more aggressive and finally in the run up to the 2019 general elections the advertising could get quite aggressive and there would be targeting political leaders like Rahul Gandhi, like Maya Vati, like Akhilesh Adav not referring to them directly but calling them Fappu and Bhua and so on and so forth. Urmilesh Ji, how significant are these revelations by Cobra Post? Paranjaya, if you ask the truth, I personally do not like the String operations and journalism very much. I am a traditional journalist. I have also never done anything like that. But these String operations, I mean the things we know, between the journalism of so many years, the experience we had, the facts we have, we all know that this is happening in the media. Who will know more about the paid news in our generation? I mean you were part of that 2010 exercise also, press conference in India. We will talk about it. Yes, we will talk about it. But what I have just done, look at the significance of it, the importance of it is that what we know about things, what is happening, with false evidence, with facts, with images, with voices in front of the public. So we will have to accept the importance of this String operation. Those people who used to not give importance to the journalism of String operations, or those who did not pay much attention, because we used to think that we have to go to the ground and report, do analysis, that is our job. More than access journalism, we wanted to have a spot reporting, a narrative, I mean journalism, things like that. So this is the first one. The second one is that, look, before the paid news, someone used to make the MLMP election, someone used to make it in other matters. But here, a whole ideology, a whole organization, a whole party, a whole wave, that is involved in how to give money and how to make people stand up, how to change the content, and how to influence all the channels. So even if a journalist has brought these things in front of him as a father, as a father, but this can happen in the media, and this is happening, this clearly shows it. You know Urmilesh, like you, I have spent 40 years in journalism in India. I have never conducted a sting operation. And honestly, I've always felt that there is something unethical about it. But you mentioned the 2010 report of the Press Council of India. Yes, I was a member of that subcommittee. Me and Srinivas Reddy, we together drafted that report. It was a 70 page report. And then after the report, it was presented to the council. There was a huge hue and cry. There was a discussion. There was a debate. And finally, what was presented to the government at that point of time was a very short version of the observations and the recommendations. And although this report, this 71 page report, 36,000 words was leaked because there were 30 copies in circulation, it did not become an official document till a journalist called Manu Mudkil, he moved the Central Information Commission and the Central Information Commission ordered the Press Council of India to put it on its website, which is available there. It's a public document. And over there, it mentions that it was not unanimously approved the contents of it. But wait, why am I mentioning this? Right through in that report, that 71 pages, we did not have what in English you would call smoking gun evidence. Did you kill anyone? Is your brain still smoking? No, it was all circumstantial evidence that there were indications that money had exchanged hands all below the table, all surreptitiously. There were no checks written out. There was no receipt. So you could argue that the only way you could highlight paid news was through a sting operation. What are your views on this? Look, through a sting operation, these things can be brought forward. But what we want to say is that, as you can see in the report, in Madhya Pradesh, there is a minister who has been there for a long time. There is still a minister. You are aware of his entire case. Now he got a clean sheet from the High Court. A clean sheet? Overruled election commission? Yes. In that, without any evidence, the sting operation came to light. Because the news about his rally, the news about him, just before elections, all the same things were published in the newspapers. It is reminiscent of Ashok Chauhan, the former chief minister of Maharashtra. Yes. And you know a lot about Ashok Chauhan. There were many such events in Uttar Pradesh in which one of the leaders, one of the leaders of Biba Daspad, Bahubali Uttar Pradesh, was their religious wife, who was fighting elections. In that case, everything was discussed. You are talking about Mrs. Yadav? Yes. Deep Yadav's wife. Deep Yadav's wife. But the minister in Madhya Pradesh, Narut Tamishra, In fact, her name is a bit like yours. Umlesh Yadav. Yes, yes. Mrs. Umlesh Yadav. I am a little different. I am Umlesh. She is Umlesh. And you know for the first time, she was the first MLA, who was barred by the election commission, from contesting any election for three years? But Paranjay, this democracy is so strange. She was barred. But the brothers who made the paid news, the channels, the small tablets, no one was against her, when the evidence was in front of everyone. So in this country, there is an act against a constitution. A constitution or a minister, is based on his clout or evidence. But what is the point that an act against a brother, an act against a channel, this is the power of our country, this media, this is the power of power, power within the court. If this is power, then it is very black power. It is black power. This is strange. You know, you were talking about these instances. Even in the case of the former chief minister of Madhya Pradesh, Ashok Chavan, finally, Sorry, I beg your pardon. It is Maharashtra, Ashok Chavan Ji. The same matter. It went from the election commission to the high court. Finally, what was it? This is what he had told us. You know, just because some newspapers are publishing identical reports under different bylines, how do you prove? Now it's interesting. The proof is the issue. And even when we looked into it from the point of view of the as a part of the subcommittee of the press council of India, this whole issue was many times you had candidates who stood for election who said, yes, I have paid money. And this comes within the expenditure limits. But the concerned media organizations the newspapers, the television channels, the companies that own them, they would always deny it. They would say, where is the proof? Where is the proof? I have seen many great leaders of the country, especially the Prime Minister, in his statements, that yes, there is no news without paying, such leaders like us. He once said, and we are all shocked. But at any time, on the media organizations, because there is a big question in our country, that you are walking through the press council. After all your efforts, what happened in the press council? The press council of the press council of the media, what was their way with your report? We all know. It's all in the public domain. Yes, it's in the public domain. Secondly, the regulators of the channels, whether it be anywhere, that self-regulation has been completely denied. I mean, there is no meaning. But yes, we also believe that there are issues like this or other people's issues. I mean, whether it be related to bad news, whether it be related to reading, we, in any way, as a regulator, as a regulatory authority, as a mechanism, we don't even want the involvement of this state. Because we all know the state of our country is free of charge. Right now, we are on the 137th number in the world. In fact, that was what it was called, the operation. One operation, 136. I would have suggested to write it 132. Anyway. So, I am saying that we know that to make this state a regulator or an intervention of this state, if it is, it is so dangerous for a country like ours. But still, I have to say that an independent regulator should be there, which is not a government. It can be the government's role model. Look, Umele, how many of our authorities are there today? Just look at the statutory authorities. One of them is the Press Council of India. It is a quasi-judicial body and act of parliament. It has no power to punish anybody. Exactly. Only recently, they agreed with the DAVP, the Directorate of Audiovisual Publicity to deny some newspapers advertisement. Till then, they had not even done that. Forget, you know, finding somebody, the Press Council of India doesn't have the powers. You have the TRAI, the Telecom Regulatory Authority of India. You have the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting. You have, within the Ministry of Information and Ministry of Electronics and Information Technology, you have CERT, the Computer Emergency Resource Team. And then, you have the self-regulatory bodies, the news broadcasting, standards, authority. Whatever recommendation they made, they refused to accept it. As in the case of Zee News? In the case of Gohar Raja, we have seen that Zee News refused to accept it. And even after apologizing, it became fine again. Mr. Gohar Raja, nothing happened. And I have to say that Mr. Khullar, when he was in TRI, around Khullar, he gave many important papers and suggestions. But I still think that the government did not think about it and did not talk to anyone. And in order to regulate news portals and websites, a government committee was formed. You know, this is, I think, a kind of, like, a nexus, a union. The owners of the media the big media, the corporate media and the political class. I want to ask you a specific question. Why Cobra Post's sting operation has acquired a lot of attention is because there are individuals there who are some of the biggest names in the Indian media. Let's talk about the specific case of Mr. Vinit Jain who, as we know, is one of the owners and one of the most important persons in the times group which is one of the biggest media organizations of its kind in in India, in Asia. Times of India says we are the world's most widely circulated English newspaper. They've put out a long statement saying this person Pushp Sharma who posed as Acharya Atal he has a background of I mean there is Delhi police has accused him of various criminal offenses in the past of extortion blackmail. Then they are saying that we never accepted any money and now they are also saying we are conducting a kind of a reversing operation on him because he was trying to blackmail us we wanted to conduct the reversing operation to find out who he was representing. We knew that he was an imposter. What are your views? I mean how do you react to this statement issued by the Times group? See Paranjay, I am a Times of India group that the newspaper has a long time I am Prashant Shakbir he has done a good job in the country I had started my newspaper from the Times group which is a Hindi newspaper and his brothers and brothers Madhuri Dharmzook Dinman Times of India Nobhara Times Maharashtra Times but Vinit Jain who is the managing director of this group has openly said that we are in the business of news not news This was like in Oletta Ken Oletta quoted him in New York New York Times of India group has done a lot of treaties like this The name has changed it is no longer private treaties it is brand Yeah So they changed the brand capital and they started a revenue coach and a lot of things In fact in the Indian media there is a business model especially before the reforms started in the Times of India group and when economic reforms came in India when changes in the entire country were leading Times of India The model is that instead of paying for an advertisement we give you shares of a particular company equity So the question is if your specific question is in general i am sorry I do not have any certificate you may be spreading I will not say anything about them It is to say if you knew about the time of India They will claim we did not know. He was the same man. How is this possible? First of all, you know that this is how an existing operation has already been done. You are media people, do you know that? They say we don't know whether he was actually representing Cobra Post. We thought he was representing this... It's very... It's very... See, if a very serious journalist, or an author, or a scientist, or a social scientist, asks the owner of any media house for an appointment, it's very difficult to meet a big owner, or a CEO, or a managing director. It's very difficult. So you are saying... You meet, you discuss. If those voices are right... No, no. And you must see, before that, he met other people in the group. Do you think because he was offering a lot of money, big bucks? The claim, the Cobra Post's revelations, I have not done any research on that voice. But the things that have come forward, those are the issues of the investigation. There are authorities for them, there are different administration agencies for them. But the things that have come forward, based on that, I can say that if he is suggesting that we will give this much, then on the other hand, there is a colleague of yours sitting there, whose face is not visible at the moment. Okay, okay. So his face is not visible, his voice is coming. In that voice, he is saying that if you are connected in Gujarat, then many of your businessmen, corporate houses, you give them cash and make us payment through Chik. If this suggestion is helping you, then I mean, what will you say? How will you defend it, first of all. Second, if you have done the string operation. Reverse string. So I have to say that it should be publicly published. What is in it? So that the way the cobra post string is being discussed in the whole country, it should be published on you as well. Okay. Urmilesh, what is being claimed by the Times of India Group or the Times Group is that look, we never got any money from them. We were just negotiating. Yes. There is no agreement, nothing in writing. Second point, they are saying what is wrong if we agree to do some programs on Ram and Sita and Hanuman and the Gita, we can do entertainment programs and comic programs, etc. And this is not, you are trying to paint it. You are cutting and pasting. You are not showing the full report. You are not showing what the Times of India gave as a full rejoinder. You are just being very selective in picking and choosing what you are showing. And then you are trying to make it out as if this newspaper group is trying to promote a Hindutva agenda. So, two points. One, is there being selective in putting out information? And secondly, it's not fair to say that they are going to only promote one kind of agenda because they are also saying we are as Ms. Kallipuri also did, Arun Puri's daughter of the India treated group. That we are, this is an advertisement. Let the advertisement go as an advertisement. You will have no say on the editorial content. I have come to the beginning of this Sting operation, without commenting on it. I would like to pose a couple of questions on the context of today's media. When our country was introduced by Arthik Sudhar, we all, or many of the Arthik experts or social scientists used to think that this is a new generation of Poonjeevat. There are a lot of its negatives. But maybe the positive thing is that there will be a new generation in the society. The cultural or values of the antifugal will increase in that. But Anjai, we want to understand this. I also don't understand that after Arthik Sudhar, after so many international Poonjeevat, so many international Poonjeevat, the consolidation of big corporate houses, the end of small groups or they are eaten by big and small fish. Even after this whole phenomenon, in the media of India, you suddenly see that the conservative thoughts around reforms, the myths, the dharmikta, the adhambar, the karmakand, the sankirna thoughts, how does the glorification get increased? As a result, you will see as many works of Manu Ranjan, especially in Hindi, on television channels. All the works of Manu Ranjan, I will tell you once, I had surveyed in the media, in my work, and that survey was that 95% of the works of Manu Ranjan, on the channels of Hindi, on the channels of Manu Ranjan, they are filled with myths, filled with dharmic adhambar, our those khand kabbi or mahak kabbi, which are completely on the dharmic views. Jatiwadi thoughts, Manuwadi thoughts, all the hero-heroes, I mean, women who live in a big mansion, Khandelwal, Goyal, I am not commenting on any of them, I am not commenting on any of them, there is no justice, there is no obesity, there is no story of a poor person, there is no story of a lover, I mean, you tell me, you are telling me all the stories, which have no meaning today, so Poonjeevaad, who we believe is an unexpected, developed, earth-based, and society-based thing, of the competition of the Samantabhadas, why are you in such a era, that the anger is filling the society? So you are trying to say, that post liberalization, which is more than 25 years ago, we have seen not only an attempt to glorify Hindutva, Hindutraditions, you are also seeing a distinct right-wing stance in the ideology that is being propagated by large sections of the mainstream media. I would like to add that it is not a very good idea that an Indian-ruling elite at the same time thought that we can consolidate our position with the use of this content and people's resistance can be minimized or minimized. Look, you know very well that when the Vajpayee government came to NDA, when it started, the most private channel was introduced in India at that time. The most licensed private channels were introduced. Today, we are around 900 channels. We are the only country in the world with so many channels to uplink and downlink. It is interesting Arvind Raj Gopal has written a book on this subject. He says it was really Ramayan and Mahabharat. The most widely watched television serial anywhere in the world which in a sense you saw this trend began. You remember that time the streets would be empty and people would be only watching television and if you told your maid to clean the floor and she said, no, no, after the serial we will do it. And it's interesting in 1984 the Bhartijanta Party had two members in the looks and gradually that went up. Now this propagation of what you can say right-wing Hindu nationalism, you could argue that trend began from there and what you're saying it took it got a big Philip post-liberalization let me bring you back to what happened in the last 10 years. Because you have brought in the political economy of the media in India in the last 10 years across the world and also in India what we see is there was a great recession. So whether in America, whether in India everywhere there was a squeeze on income, on expenditure on advertising and marketing services. In many countries it actually came down. In some countries it stagnated. In some countries like India it went up but the rate of growth didn't go up that much. And simultaneous this was a period when the internet expanded. The whole notion of Baudic Sampathik copyright all went for a toss. Everybody wants everything free. You know you want to read everything free, you want to watch everything free you want to listen to everything free. Who pays the writer, who pays the videographer. That's another story. But the point that I was trying to make is that in this context, Indian media organizations, one could argue, have become more dependent on political parties and the government for advertising income. Do you think that what has been shown in the cobra post operation the sting operation also shows that because the finances the revenues of mainstream media organizations have got squeezed their greed has gone up and they're willing to compromise to get more money. See, if you look at the structure of the media houses then there used to be a marketing there used to be people of circulation and people of development and now there are so many departments in big houses and they have new names, completely different names which are usually the new names in the corporate sector Now the question is that there is promotion, salary increase, all these things are based on how much money can be brought from it. It doesn't mean that you are making a writer. It doesn't mean that a lot of people discredit circulation that it will cost us money and that's right it costs the black market the newsprint so now how can we bring more money even if you do anything for it. So your reader, your viewer is listener is first a consumer then a citizen and this whole notion of information is it in the public interest of interest to the public so that all those notions have got turned around so you think that this cobra post sting operation highlights this aspect of the working of the media in India. I think the revelation of the cobra post is that the things we or the media knew properly they have brought it to the public with false evidences I won't say that there are so many evidences because the second aspect can be said that as the Times of India has said in his speech that it has been destroyed and there have been selective things which are of their own choice I don't know about this when the Times of India will bring it to the public then we can definitely say it but I have to say that they have explained the ideology economy and media that the political economy of India what is the relationship with today's Hindutva agenda between Hindutva agenda and the media it is not possible that 95% of the British and English I am saying 95% and I am saying this with full honesty listen to their why do they speak in one voice so many presenters so many you see in Hindi channels the headings, the captions today's religious war it is said where did the people get stuck where did it come from religion religious symbol mythological religion captions you can't put a simple heading you can't put a simple thing that everyone understands you don't choose any other religion you don't choose any religion you don't choose any symbol why do you choose only one religion the second thing is that this language has not been written in Hindi you can watch it the history of Shankar Vidyarthi you see it in the 60s, 70s, 80s see the Hindi literature our tradition has not been cut the way I am saying not only anchor the news you are making the newsroom you are running all of a sudden the political economy is changing the role of the owners the role of the executors the story in the newspapers how a person comes from behind and says that this should not happen take care of it thank you so much Urminesh for in such articulate terms in such wonderful Hindi I can't speak Hindi like you but you have explained the political economy of the series of sting operations done by Cobra Post and placed it in that broader political and economic context in contemporary India thank you so much for being with us it's been a pleasure having this conversation with you thank you very much for watching this conversation between me and Urmilesh which looks at the political economy of the recent sting operations conducted by Cobra Post