 great the theme music means it's time to start it is time to call the December 12th architecture review board meeting to order Steve if you could read the roll please sure Bob Hymerl here Zach Rusk here Dave Alde here Jerry Jones here Joe Clark here Richard Lindy here and Pam Langen here we have a full house today excellent nice if everyone would please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all under item three any potential conflicts of interest needing to be identified board members hearing none move to item number four looking for an approval of the architecture view board minutes from November 14th with motion and multiple seconds as long as the line got one of them any further discussion hearing none all those in favor signify by saying aye opposed minutes are approved thank you our first item for discussion today is the proposed construction of a building addition at Johnston's bakery at 3320 Wheaton Creek Road if that team could come to the podium and make introductions and give a brief description of what's being proposed I am John Johnston John says bakery Jason Aaron's with distinctive design studio so there's some growth in the frozen dough market and we're looking to put an addition on to their existing building on Wheaton Creek Road for production and cold storage we're looking to match the existing building in appearance with the same colored siding and CMU Wainscote on the south side and the matching the cooler and freezer panels and the intent is to just match what's there a metal building metal pre-engineered metal building with metal siding and standing see metal rough Jason could you speak a little to the the landscaping on this south facade what's intended along there so so the intent of the landscaping along the south side is to break up the length because it's a long building and the intent is to use some of the landscaping to kind of break up the length of that building so doesn't seem quite so long and there is already some existing landscaping there that kind of hides the building so that was the intent behind that yes a question I would have for the board the proportion of the building the existing building with its masonry wainscote base works fairly well but as you extend that a lot longer on that south facade it starts to get that pancake effect that it's long and horizontal and we're reinforcing it with the the wainscote we do have a slight projection where the building comes forward a little that I think will help but looking for thoughts from the board as to whether the just continuing that existing design is the best approach just matching what's there or if that that shift in the facade would be an opportunity to do something just a little different and then how much the landscaping we want to count of to take the place of architectural detailing we have this discussion often granted this is an industrial park so slightly different considerations from elsewhere in the city but yeah when you take the landscaping away it's a pretty bland facade so thoughts for discussion Jerry thanks Steve yeah you see where you're going with that one I think on the years that I've been on the committee I've always tried to take time the location and what we're trying to achieve and in this instance where it's located does play a major part of my thoughts on this because I took a drive out there and just you know extending the building matching what's there a lot of cases I don't think that's the right move but here considering what they're using it for and where we're located I applaud the use of the landscaping because that will break it up it's mature trees that they're going to be putting in and considering what it's what it is you don't want to overdo it to a certain extent that's just my belief so I think what they're doing here by matching the existing facility and at least giving us an attempt at the landscaping really breaks it up there is the slight projection which I think gives us a little relief but overall I think it's the perfect move for this particular building in this location thank you other thoughts anyone differing opinions I move for approval we have a motion and a second any further discussion hearing none all those in favor signify by saying aye aye opposed it is approved and submitted our next item for discussion number six is the proposed construction of a new view 14 apartments the southeast corner of south 14th and Illinois if your team could come to the podium and introduce yourselves and then give us a brief update on what you're proposing yeah let me give me one second maybe maybe one of the first things you guys I'm sorry it may be one of the first things you guys could do is maybe just clue everyone in a little bit on the site location and I'll get that map up for you but I don't know is everyone familiar what site we're talking about this was a former sit-go gas station a couple years ago southeast corner of 14th in Illinois there's the Thomas engineering it or Thomas is right across the street you have to take five in the area over here and then you had kind of a residential neighborhood to the north side of Illinois oops I'm sorry I'm talking and not showing you so here's yes yes so the neighborhood on the north side here you got Thomas industries on the west side of 14 the BP gas station take five and then this was formerly a sit-go service station probably knocked down for about maybe three years now so and then these gentlemen had approached the city as far as taking a look at the site for apartments and the property was rezoned earlier this year or late last year I care somewhere in that area from the commercial to an urban residential and that was approved from the standpoint as kind of a mixed-use neighborhood so that's why they're here today and looking for approval of the project and that they'll let you know a little bit more about yeah absolutely thank you Steve my name is Tyler sharing with Commonwealth development with me here I have Lucas Petrie and Josh Somerfeld from M&A Design so as Steve mentioned this is a 48 unit apartment complex that we've been in the works with on the city staff since about 2021 on the spring of and kind of began the rigorous process was curing low-income housing tax credits for this parcel fortunately enough we were awarded those this spring and now kind of been engaging obviously the design process to get the plans approved and in place so that once winter conditions have evaporated in spring 2023 is around we can get in the ground and begin this process and we have purchased this parcel and completed a pretty extensive environmental clearance process so we are making really good headway and kind of ahead of schedule as to where we anticipated so so long as we do not have a harsh winter here and we should be ready to go obviously subject to your guys approval but now specifically as relates to the plans I'll let Lucas and Josh kind of elaborate on any questions or details that you guys would like to hear about sir so I don't know if you if you do want to do this site plan maybe I can start there mainly mainly for that electrical easement that we kind of mentioned I think if I got yeah my rate I think I may have I may not have gotten that on this one oh okay yeah so I plan to work or this one that's fine this aerial I don't know if that shows it that well but if anything I can get the pictures back sure so basically the the way that we have little constricting constrictions on the site so they're on the south end I'll call it two thirds of the way down there's a is it 30 feet 30 foot easement that runs right through there for overhead electrical power lines so we were pretty limited on where this building could could be placed with the amount of units that we were trying to get on the site to make it feasible so right now it's basically anchored on the corner of 14th and Illinois up there so we have a small leg that anchors 14th and then Illinois is the longer leg that is more oriented towards the single family residential up there so if you go to the rendering or elevations what we what we basically tried to do was we we took the that north end and kept it at three stories yet but we tried to pull down the or you know break up the facade but pull down on a more residential feel with porches and individual entries to some of the units that are on that first floor and and then obviously with different materials broke that up with a combination of horizontal siding shakes and a kind of a bored and bad and panel on the corners the other part of it too we didn't want to do a flat roof we thought this would look a little more residential with with the pitched roof shingles and you know kept kept the windows again in a more residential feel with a you know single hung windows and then we'll landscape the the surrounding building accordingly and and then we accommodate the on the inside of the site with thumpster that houses the recycling and trash required for the unit or the tenants and a maintenance shed and then on the southwest corner of the site we just have a small monument sign and then anchoring off that going towards the east we just put a privacy fence that kind of shielded that our site from that that take five site to the south there sorry I'm moving around for you yeah no appreciate it yeah I don't know if there's a lot going on sorry about that you need more screens yeah go back to the elevation or anyone have a preference to which one to go first we'll let you go first okay Mike my first question had to do with the corner there which is great it's up right now right there at the corner of 14th in Illinois I think that's LP smart side board if I can read that if you can go up a little bit yeah right there on the corner LP smart side what were your thoughts because that's so much different than everything else as far as the rhythm of what the architecture says you kind of set that out by itself yeah we wanted it's a much nicer material obviously but I thought we thought kind of sort of a Cape Coddy sort of feel to it that that kind of help set the corners and then we we took that and actually put that material on all on all I'll call it six corners but sort of sort of blended it throughout the building none yeah because it's a little more lower profile in the roof area as well yeah it's set up a little it's set up an extra foot there to kind of create sort of a little tower element and that does that project out from the other yep okay thank you yep I'd like to thank the team for the work you've done back and forth with the city I know that you guys have been talking for a long time yeah I appreciate your willingness to keep moving the project forward with the feedback from the city I think it's ending up in a much better place than where it started a while back you'd mention the dumpster enclosure and the shed and I may have missed it but I didn't go digging on the elevations to what the materials on those are yeah so the the shed which is what you see right there that'll that'll be exactly the same stuff that's on the on the main building horizontal siding and then the shingles and then the dumpster enclosure will be a split-faced block again will match colors to the building and then a vinyl slatted gate that will again cover up everything that is kind of what's the coping material on top of the aluminum coping that goes around and then any rooftop mechanicals big roof up there we're gonna be seeing anything no they'll just be your miscellaneous venting just that exhausting I should say and is that noted to pull it to the backside yeah we usually try to yeah at all costs yep so it should sit on that inside corner we'll call it courtyard but yeah all the condensing units are actually either in in units so like a magic pack unit some of the bigger units can't house that that big units because we have a mix of three bedrooms in there too so there are a couple ground surface ones that will just will landscape screen around them but that's all to the back side yeah we tried to we tried to push everything as far back or you condensing units that are along yeah if you pull the landscape plan of Steve you might be able to there's just no zoom in a little bit on the if you want to just take that north end there for example and on the north end the north facade that streets along all the perspective no you can just zoom in there it'll show the actual condensing units in there and where we have the landscaping screening I guess you'll say so kind of in the in the corners there the end yeah you see those little squares there so they're setting inside there and then we just will we'll put some taller shrubs and stuff around there that should screen those take yes one of your elevations you show black lines on the corners where those battens are located yep I'd rather like that look I wonder if you could actually do that and make that part of the project yeah oh yeah you're saying the where the where the panel is yeah yep yeah those will be in there so the baton is actually darker than the panel oh you're saying a different color yeah yeah so he's just saying that they'll they'll be the same color the shadow line will create that black line that you're kind of looking at there'll be a three-quarter inch reveal on that baton board so that'll stick out I understand but my question is would you be willing to make those battens a different color it's a little unusual we can see what it looks like oh so you would consider it I would consider exploring it my first shotgun is it might be a little busy I wouldn't want to introduce a new color per se but we would definitely be willing to explore it so it was the same color but shaded that would work for you I think it's worth exploring okay good glad to hear that and thank you for not putting shutters on it other questions comments Jerry just a question if I'm coming up Indiana because it's such a steep hill there what's my gonna be my view from Indiana coming up that hill just past take yeah from the back to be right there so that side so that so the panel is again repeated on that's always kind of mentioning on the six corners it's it repeats itself on each corner got it okay that helps thank you you have a projective completion date in mind you know right now subject to winter conditions we're trying to kind of break ground in April projecting about a 14-month build so call it middle of summer 2024 is what we're shooting for right now how many how many residencies are in there there's 40 units yes mix of one's two's and three bedrooms yep and a couple of them the ones that along Illinois are kind of a townhouse style unit so get a stairs and then there's two stories so so those are folks who will have access from the ground right into their unit okay yeah what is there seven or eight of them yeah something along those lines yeah they'll be able to access those from the main building from the main entry on the interior courtyard but they'll also be able to utilize their own private entrances got it you just have street parking or is there some parking open back nope so we right now we're hitting about a one and a half one and a half so yeah it's on the southeast side there you know and again we're we're playing with playing the game with where those electrical lines come in there so we're pretty limited on how we're contorting ourselves with fire access and all that stuff with the site overhead power lines we're driving right yeah and I know we'll deal with this more at planning commission tomorrow where it'll be but the two homes in the back those are not part of this that's correct to the east you're saying yes okay yeah actually I think you know this this map still shows that there's something there but that is actually been raised that's no longer there that's correct okay okay so we're trying to get these guys by them but I think you did you did inquire didn't you yeah I think the problem there was that just for the timing perspective because we have the application so far in advance I think when we first were looking at the site one of those houses actually was still there that just how long we've had the project works but yeah the hope is that obviously those remain vacant but in the event someone does purchase and rebuilds should not be an issue for the site okay that was more my question sounds good I believe we show some landscape screening along that side of our property as well we originally had talked about offense but I think we all agreed that maybe some landscape screening would be a little bit more appropriate yeah that's one of those don't deal with it until you have to kind of issues very good I make a motion to approve subject to staff recommendations and exploring Dick's request on the trim on the corners second we have a motion and a second you can clarify Jerry how much so basically just to submit something at a staff level I would say yes and it would be approved there dick are you comfortable with that coming back at a staff level to look at the contrasting battens perfect correct if we're all agreed on that any further discussion hearing none all those in favor signify by saying hi I opposed it is approved thank you very much see you guys tomorrow yep one other quick item before we move on in adjourned we've had discussions over the years and it's never really gone anywhere and would like to percolate it a little more again and get your thoughts after the new year but trying to figure out what we might be able to do to improve the process for applicants coming in especially for them like the the bar owners or some of the recent applicants who are coming in fairly late in the process just looking to get their permit and then any sort of feedback architecturally is almost too late for them to be able to respond to so how to encourage those applicants to be thinking further ahead and submitting things are there things we might be able to offer from the city or just as from the architectural community to help with some of that upfront planning especially for clients who don't want to be paying for architectural services yeah I think that's difficult if you don't have an architect engaged upfront mean you want to do it on your own you know if you're just expanding what you have I think the rules I don't want to say the rules the guidelines are pretty clear you come in you talk to the staff here's what I want to do but my encouragement would be for those especially who have an architect involved become aware of what's being proposed early on don't be surprised when they get to the committee because it seems like we get a lot of clients who come in they have no idea what their architect is talking about yeah and there's there's a major disconnect there seems from between what they talked about and what shows up here and we're giving feedback on what we see and then all of a sudden the owner is going well I didn't know that was in there or I wasn't aware of that so more communication to them up front for those working without an architect I would just encourage them to come and talk to Steve as early in the process as possible so he can lay out here's what you're going to need to do yeah just so just so everyone else knows you know typically what occurs is as soon as the project start coming in we as a staff meet with them whether it's myself or building inspector or engineer landscape planning director and start having some conversations early on there were a couple that actually took advantage of coming in before they actually submitted like the couple of gas stations at tidy store you know those that we've had some kind of questions so it's something that I offer all the time so that so we are trying to do that before it gets to you guys and try to do a lot of that work ahead of times doesn't always work I think the trouble is the ones that come in last minute and hey I want to get my permit to do this and those are the ones that unfortunately at times I bring here and maybe don't have it's not as far along or maybe there's some discrepancies so you know that's the last thing I want to bring you guys I'd rather bring things to you where hey it's all been worked out and maybe there's some things but that's the thing I think that's Joe's mentioning is there's something so I'll also you know review what we're doing now and see what we can do better that way and you know a lot of times it's just they're coming in at the last minute I got the material that's that's when I struggle or that those are tough ones when I think the one thing you can't fix is the the folks who say I don't even know why I'm going through this process I didn't know I had to do it why do I have to do it you can't fix that those folks are going to come in but even there if there's something clearly stated on the website that Steve can turn around and say look it was right here or if we were to require an earlier piece to the review process so that they have to come in and do something that then builds in a little more time but then for some of them that's going to be a real issue too you can only do so much handholding yeah at some point they've got to take responsibility for what they're looking to do well I was about to say to a lot of people they won't even refer to the city website they're just going to why why do this is a government overreach and stuff like that so I think that's a thing too is some of these people just do not care to start with and I I certainly sympathize with it oh I know I I mean I mean because those people the only pull we have is the building permit and when they find out they can't get the building permit until they do X by the time they get here they're hopping mad because they don't it's another step to slow down their process so two items in response to that one is that there are communities that are way more heavy-handed what architecture of you are planning requires and they get some of them are very heavy-handed and I don't think sheboygan wants to be there no no I agree so where is that happy middle ground that we're at least making sure we're we're doing everything we can while still being a friendly boy and that's my point is some of those people no matter even if you're not heavy-handed at all they still will just think it's too much you know so that's my point is like we're obviously never going to bat a thousand so if we can get that 800 that be great so I think our architectural community here in Sheboygan especially they try to get the clients to be engaged as early on as possible the architects that do work with them and they try to get them involved but as we've seen for many years some clients are just disconnected until it affects their building permit and then it becomes now you're taking money out of my pocket and they may become engaged but by then we're already here so a couple of things that have been talked about over the years or what could we do for that sort of client you know is there an architectural free clinic that the city can offer would the architectural community be willing to volunteer one night a month or something maybe it's a rotating basis but is there something we can put out there maybe it's a nominal charge maybe there's funding that the city has that they could cover some of that cost maybe not but at least worth looking into but to at least get something for that bar owner or the building owner who's going to do the work themselves to give a little bit of architectural direction to them earlier rather than us yeah because I think absent that you're probably searching for a streamlined process which there really isn't for that particular client you know something that's easier more accessible they still have to go through the same process even if they don't have an architect but to your point maybe we can educate them ahead of time yeah well I assume they're they're welcome to come in to talk to Steve you're you and your team to get get them headed and sort of in our shepherd them in the right direction if you will absolutely I mean not everyone calls in but I mean I tend to have some interesting conversations to say hey you can hear this from me or you can go to the board and hear it and then that have them tell you and wait another two weeks you know or or we can try so there's a lot of times that I'm trying to get certain things tweaked so by the time like one of the things that Joe mentioned this evening was there was quite a bit of back and forth with the gentleman here this evening with the apartment and and initially there was some stuff that was I thought could be better and got some input and which was very helpful and then they came back and you guys approved it right but there was a lot of conversation prior so I mean I'm always more than willing to meet with people because I don't want them to leave here you know if I know that something is going to be a challenge or as you know I'll tell them up front to be like hey just so you know if you do these things I think you got a better shot but if you don't and you're going in either staff's gonna say something or the board may something and they know going in that ahead of time it's not a surprise from a staff perspective I always try to make them aware hey here's where we're gonna be coming from and then it's on them to basically go from there but there's always an ability to do you know those pre-development meetings and get some initial feedback from our office and I think we've had good results with some of the the folks who have come in for that preliminary review yeah to kind of steer them in the right direction and when they do come back then it's a slam dunk but for the folks that are coming in and you know CDs are done the project's bid anything that we require them to change that's cost to them how can we get them to come in sooner when there is still the ability to change things without significant cost impact but I'm assuming that over the years these things have happened and then you've talked about them I mean is there something that you can put on the website that kind of gives them a heads up that you know you're gonna want to get to us early on before you get to a certain point in your process otherwise it's gonna right and and that's all stuff I'll I have to be honest with you I haven't looked at it in a little bit and I got it to what I'll also do is work with our billing inspection department to see what they have and that's certainly something that's easy enough to put out there if it's not there and I'm sorry I should know this better than I do but I will the next time and if it's not it's something that's easy enough to be put on there that pay any type of commercial projects coming in and you want to talk to staff as soon as you know you start thinking about it so that's if that's not there I can easily get that on there but I think that's a good point you made working with building inspection because those are the two joint processes that usually that's where we find people especially it's not the build it's not the ground ups it's usually like you said that the existing place that wants to renovate and they've already bought everything right and then they go for the building permit well you haven't gotten architecture review I didn't know I had to right well now it's a little late the process they've already put the car before the horse I'm not sure we'll be able to help them but working with building inspection might be a way to reach out that olive branch a good example would be that architecture building of the chiropractic building that we just went through existing building new purpose there's a lot of back-and-forth there right and luckily there you had an owner who was engaged from day one yeah that's what I was gonna say I think if there are easy guidelines for some of these people when they first come in to get a permit if it's communicated to them check out the website the guidelines are easily spelled out there that they know step one step two step three before they go anywhere if it's if it's clearly spelled out that would might help them you know and and what number two might be you know call Steve so close you can see if you get an appointment I think if it's easily spelled out for some of these people it might be helpful for them just to say okay I've got a I've got a list of things I need to do before I get to point a and then I mean but you're right you can't you can only take the horse of the truck and if they're not gonna look at the website then you know for the building owner who until they come in for their building permit doesn't realize that there are steps they needed to go through there is how do you do a certain amount of work on your own building so that's that I think is one of the trickiest situations and costs are obviously a concern we don't want to be piling additional cost requirements on them but at the same time it's our responsibility to try and get the best architecture we can so that's why I wanted to start this discussion I didn't expect us to get the answers today but think about it over the holidays and in the new year I'd like to keep this discussion going and it may be a trial-and-error thing that something sounds good and we implement it and then find it doesn't work and try something else but I think to just be thinking about improving the process you have to think about those clients who've been in here concerned that the impression is we're trying to tell them what they have to do with their building and that's not what we're here for so how to make sure that the the perception of what we're here for is understood and presented as positively as possible so the the people or companies or that that you've had problems with in the past some of the things that we've talked about there's such a thing as sitting down and talking to them and say hey from your perspective let's talk about this what can what could we have done differently or you know to improve the process now obviously there's some things they're gonna say that just they're just to one side but I just some collaborative collaboration getting together to just see if there's a middle ground that will work for each other yeah that's a good thought Dave and and that's certainly something I could you know reach out to Penale you know and and I just mentioned Joe because he was probably the last one that we had that was or the Muguay project you know those could be a couple where there were some you know hiccups if you want to say that or whatever and maybe there's some feedback at least I can reach out to them and maybe that's another thing is simply reaching out and saying hey you know and after there's just a little bit of time maybe after the project gets done maybe once they're in and operating or something and it's done maybe there's an ability for me to go to them and say all right you know based on everything that what went on what can you tell me and what would from your perspective from the other side can you tell me some things that maybe where we didn't work maybe there were mistakes that could have been lessened or what have you and I'm more than willing to reach out to people to find that out as well yeah because worst case you're gonna have good will because it shows you're trying to make a good faith effort smooth the process and you never know whether or not that's another project down the line is there an addition is there they move is there something else is there someone else and so yeah I mean at a minimum I can do that and that does speak to that at least there's reaching out trying to figure out how to do maybe if there's some improvements that could be done yeah you know what they say you give somebody a new car they don't like the color two other factors that to be thinking about in this discussion one is on the front end whether it's a free clinic or a low-cost something to get architectural input early how do we do that that it's not perceived as favoritism to specific architects how do we keep it fair that everyone has equal opportunity and that it's not the architectural community setting it up to try and draw up work for themselves and obviously isn't the intent but I could see where the perception is oh now you're just having us meet so that we have to hire you well if they're going through Steve's you know Steve's team I mean they don't have really they really don't have any ties anybody and they can kind of lead them down the path as to you know where they need to go are you talking when it gets real specific and to design aspects of a building or one of the things that's been talked about is the sort of free clinic or a charrette model that you know the bar owner could show up some evening and get some free advice where would that come from who would provide it how is it set up so there are no strings attached yeah you'd have to talk to some of your colleagues and see how far they're willing to go right it's not like you're all sitting around during the day twiddling your thumbs looking for things to do I know Steve has a hard enough time just getting architects to serve on this board so to do an additional service right how much interest would there be I don't know careful what you wish for yeah but if it's in the interest of improving the architecture of the city as a whole then maybe there would be folks interested in helping with that obviously don't have the answers it's just things that have popped up as potential red flags in the process that we don't want to make it perceived worse then it already is as we try to improve it the tail end of the discussion would be for the conditions where we've approved something and it gets built and it's not what we approved yeah what is the appropriate response to that for the city because at that point all they can do is hold up the occupancy permit and for a lot of the projects it's really odd do we want to do that so then what's the point of the architecture review board if the local contractors know that it really doesn't matter anyway make it a fine that makes it worse than holding up an occupancy permit and again where is that balance between not being heavy-handed but making sure that whatever is approved here actually is what but if they if they submit some they submit plans that is that you approve for construction and city and they deviate from it you have you you have to take action because otherwise you're just asking for more I mean what would the state do you know it really varies by community and again it's not wanting to appear to be the architectural Gestapo you know we but we also want to make sure that they're building what's approved that's the point of this so what procedure and no answers today but to be thinking about what the city can set up to be a reasonable procedure whether it's additional fines or just a more willingness to hold off on that occupancy permit that's always a struggle too because now you're starting to get into the political aspect right and hey you're holding me up so there's and I'm not saying that's right or wrong but I'm just saying that's the reality it's one thing if it's like they just change a color on some trim or something like that I think I think something like that you're it's like okay fine whatever don't do it again but if it's like they changed the entire building layout then yeah you need to start coming down hard on that's exactly it where on that continuum does it go from being a oh yeah that's fine I think when they do something that drastic you kind of have to in a professional way hold their feet to the fire yeah otherwise yeah I would agree I like I said it's one thing if it's a piece of trim around the house or something or different color gutters for me personally whatever but like if you're going to start changing the whole layout of the building or like for the view 14 like the different style like the different ways sign was going well if they just are like screw it and they all went vertical then that's different and yeah you're going to need to come down hard on that I would think because that's that's not first think of that happen not off the top of my head there was the one on well there's the street I won't name but there was a building that came in it was a design he said he was going to build it a certain way and it came back different windows different sighting different everything there's nothing about what we proved on that building at all and how did that dialogue go it didn't go anywhere because he'd already done it he got his occupancy yeah and that's kind of what we're talking like up front in the process as far as permitting or whatever where you can have a statement in there to cover yourself against that happening what often times at plan commission where a lot of these projects all end up coming through not all of them but and a lot of times we'll get it here but I usually have like some type of condition that indicates hey if there's any changes site plan architecturally that the application may have to be resubmitted back to the board plan commission our board architecture review board for those changes so I don't always necessarily have that condition in here but a lot of the projects that come here like these big ones like the view apartments and the bakery both of these have to come to plan commission in that statement and condition is always in there so so I at least have something to fall back on now the ones that may not have that is safe for example if we approve something and it's as presented that doesn't need plan commission like say it's just in like the bar or something like that that's just an exterior renovation that doesn't necessarily need it but I guess if anything one of the conditions that we could put if in in future ones is just something like that hey if there's changes that needs to come back so that's easy enough to include and even the trim color change that you mentioned set just to come back at a staff level right right in like what any change is reviewed hopefully it's a yeah that's no big deal right well what I was mean was like going from like a white to like a beige versus a white to like a dark blue that's what I meant like that's a bigger change than you know an off white to a white or something like that so I appreciate that the amount of discussion today it's way more than I expected us to have today but to get those wheels turning to think about it ways that we can hopefully help the city to improve the process yeah I think the trip up is always in the past been the enforcement mechanism how do we enforce it because unless Steve is out there watching people build it to make sure it's what we by the time it's done it's too late and that's the enforcement mechanism becomes the top part and it's not like I'm not watching it's not like I'm out there every day watching you know I'm expecting them to build it too but if there's certain things that get pointed out it's not as though we're not going out there and talking to him and saying hey what's up so on that note we're not meeting again till January January 9th is our next meeting so happy holidays very Christmas happy New Year and I would entertain a motion to adjourn so we'll second motion in a second all in favor everybody appreciate your help throughout the year