 Felly, ddim yn fwy o'r cyfnod, Jane Seal, y cyfnod gyda'r cyfnod yma, yw Dolfy Tys Patrick, yng Nghymru, yng Nghymru, ac Arthog Ltegur yng Nghymru, yng Nghymru, yng Nghymru, ac Jane wedi'u gweithio'r cyfnod yma. Felly, ddodd y gallwn i'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Nowe, ddodd yn gweithio'n gweithio, a'u ddodd yn gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n chatter o ddiweddarlo'u cyfeithio'n gwahanol o'r clwrs Gaelegol. Yn gynghylch, mae'n fwy'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio arfer wel y llanae ac mae hwn o'n eu hwn o'r behod ychydig o'r cyffredinol cynghwys. Mae'n ddiddordeb ar yr unrhyw dechrau trafod y Nolfog, Yn cael ei gael ddigon, ystod ddyn nhw'n pryd. Oedd wedi bod y gallwn amser yn y cyrackol? Doedd yn bwrth. Rwy'n thrallgyn ei wneud. A chydo'n ei gael. Yn cofrith yma felly mae gan gael i eich cyrackol argymau fwy o'r awdd ynglynhaeth, a at y peth oherwydd yr awdd yn ei gwell. Fy oherwydd ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n gael, i'r awd ymddill awdd ynglynhaeth, ac yn ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n oedd ..o brosedd unrhyw deilwydd.. ..o brosedd unrhyw deilwyddoedd, o brosedd unrhyw deilwydd. Newydd y gallu gweld yno... ..nynydden nhw'n ysgrifft-feillawr o cerdddol... ..a unrhyw ddweud ei chi gyd... ..o cerddwydd i'r idea yw... ..'ynghydfynidol yw chi'n golygu... ..ynaised y cinchlid digital. Ychydigon ni yn ystafell.. ..'u twfyniad j ہwn... ..wr eich gyfnod ymwyenedd.. ..yn ni'n gwybod y chdriving... ..am y cyfrwys... Ie grows that you are sharing that, challenging in that questioning as we go throughout the day. What I wanted to do is to kinda share my thoughts on digital inclusion in the role of technology. I'm really proud this title, I hope you are. In a sense what I'm trying to say is today's not about me, Donald or for anybody pretending to be some kind of magic fairy that waves a wand and says I've got the magical solution. Just think all your want and the explosion is gone. Today's not about magical solutions. It's about us really thinking about some important challenges. So I'm really going to question the notion of magical fairings with the magical ones. I'll give you some challenges to think about. Before I go on, I need to just let you know where I'm coming from quickly so you can understand the position I'm taking. I did my PhD back in 1984 to 87 when the beautiful, beautiful BBC Micro still existed. I love it, still do. Because it's a really powerful tool for working with adults with severe learning disabilities. And I worked in long-term mental handicapped hospitals as they were called then, and in social services. And that's where my passion and my heart is. I moved on to working assistive technology, working in rehab engineering, so I understand a bit of the techies being, not a lot. But through the recent bits of work I've done, I'm really going to feed into my challenges to you today. One is a book I wrote on accessibility, kind of reviewing theory and practice, and trying to link research policy practice. The other is a project called Lexus, which is a very student-sensored project that was getting disabled students in university to talk about their technology experiences. And my two colleagues today are going to run some really interesting workshops on that. So I'm not saying much more. But I've also just computed some work for the Technology Enhanced Learning Research Programme, synthesising and reviewing what literature research is out there about digital inclusion. I'm going to use that background and that experience to give you my challenges and my thoughts. So the first challenge, kind of linking into the title of today is about what does rewiring mean in the sense of digital inclusion. What I want to challenge you to think about is what is digital inclusion? Because certainly coming from an accessibility background, inclusion is very often being thought about as access. And I think most of us are realising that digital inclusion is more about access to technologies, it's more about accessibility of technologies, although both of those are important. Some of us also talk about the kind of use that learners use technologies for, and that's important, but it's more than just thinking about inclusion being about being able to use technologies. Digital inclusion is about meaningful use and what I would suggest to you is that one of the important challenges is who decides what's meaningful about technology use. One of the things that worries me is that too often it's us that decides and not the learners that decide. And certainly in the work that I've been doing with disabled students and users, so often they say, these people have got their ideas about what I should be doing with technology and what's important about my technology use, but actually I don't think like that. And for some learners and for some students they'll make some important decisions that could be the right decisions for them, which is actually I don't need to use technology for this particular situation. And I think that's really important to hold on to to think about meaningful use of who decides that. The other part of the title for today is about strategies, tools and techniques and yes, they're important. But what I'm passionate about is moving beyond the tools, the strategies and the techniques. They are important and some of us today will be talking about gadgets and yes, they're interesting, they're important. But gadgets and tools on their own don't make digital inclusion practice. I think that's very important. What today's about is practitioners and other people coming together to describe and share how they use the tools. And it's that how we use the tools that I think is important in terms of moving digital inclusion along, thinking about what we can do for our learners and our students. And I think it's from that that the notion of best practice will be decided. And I will confess to you that I'm getting a little bit concerned about bodies that produce beautiful published documents that say here's case studies of best practice. When actually all they are are case studies of only practice, of sole practice. A person who's trying something out new for the first time and that's really important but it doesn't necessarily make it best practice. And I think it's all of us together today that will decide what's best practice in terms of using tools with our learners. Practice of both on stakeholders that's why today's really exciting because we've got all the stakeholders in room across sectors and so on. But also practice is interdisciplinary and you'll hear that a lot. Everybody likes to talk about interdisciplinary but actually interdisciplinary work is really hard and we shouldn't underestimate that. So I suppose it's a plea for these words are important but I think we're starting to be a bit too clear the notion of stakeholders interdisciplinary. Let's think about that and seriously engage with it and what it means that digital inclusion are best practice. Finally my last slide the notion of barrier free learning. Again a barrier free learning is a phrase that's been around for a long time. And I want to apply it to the notion of kind of getting us to think about notions of success and notions of failure in terms of digital inclusion. In terms of the things we try to do is using technology. How do we decide whether our efforts are successful and perhaps more importantly who decides. One of the things I comment on in my digital inclusion report for the TAL programme is the idea that very often funders who are generous and give us money for big digital inclusion projects have notions of success and are very often linked to if we give you technology in your placement our notion of success is that those learners must go on to higher education, further education or their job and if they don't the project is being a failure. And actually that disempower the users of the technology who sometimes come into schools, colleges, centres with notions of that they want to use technology for something but they're not thinking about further educational jobs. They have other goals, other outcomes it could be about staying in contact with grandma in Australia it could be about developing their confidence it could be about learning skills so they can help their children with their homework whatever it is, those outcomes are important for them and if they're achieved then perhaps that's success and so I think part of today might be about challenging notions of success. My final point is can we tolerate perceived failures? Technology costs a lot of money costs a lot of time uses up a lot of enthusiasm patience etc and one of the things I'm really concerned about is the idea that perhaps we're getting a little bit frightened to take some risks to try things with learners with students using technologies not really knowing what's going to happen it's kind of linked to my previous point about outcomes and unsuccess and sometimes things don't work you have a probability you must get X number of computers out into the community by equal or whatever it is and that doesn't happen is that a failure has something else happening instead so what I would really like us to think about and chat with you to think about is the idea that we perhaps need to be a doctor notion of positive risk-taking kind of yes but keep the funders happy and do the best we can but sometimes we need to be creative and think about the possibilities try stuff not knowing if it's going to work that will mean you have to build in what I call organisational slack a group, a community, a school a centre might have to build in some slack whereby the failures get tolerated in the hope that there'll be some successes however you define that so that's my kind of challenge for you today I'm wearing pink but I'm not a magic digital inclusion fairy but today think about the challenges what you're all passionate about digital inclusion, whatever that means but let's make it realistic and let's keep learnings at the centre of it thank you very much I'm very happy to be here because I'm blind myself and went through the learning system in Germany and for me it's quite important that other people that have disabilities have the same chance that they need to be successful at school and learning a lot to be able to cope with challenges through life and being able to make their career despite disabilities and so my role today it's not about speaking about me myself it's more about what I'm doing and at my work time at Yahoo so my role, it's tired and subtle weird for the most people accessibility evangelist at Yahoo the best part is really I was working I started at Yahoo different kinds of tasks as a software engineer I was able to work on any kind of back end engineer and I encountered a lot of problems with accessibility so accessibility with products that I was working on and I couldn't have a challenge on it but I saw other products that didn't get any hands on or if I could check it a little bit it probably broke again after I changed it because most of the product designers and product managers the software developers didn't know enough about accessibility and so I started to to evangelise everyone around me to think about accessibility to make part of their their work attitude and to train people as well so that's why I now have half on the half role where I disability train people outside of my reporting line and and trying to to promote accessibility internally quite strongly and that's why I got such a title Myself I'm blind probably you'll notice my next thing so I'm Portuguese born in Germany living in UK for three years so it's quite international and that's my background education in Germany in German and Portuguese and now in the UK it's quite interesting and amazing to see how different I am learning and seeing it as a work so I'm going through a little bit responding to how we are addressing the things at Yale and I'm going straight past to so who is responsible for accessibility and where are the the the cutting points between all the systems and I notice that it's not all about the engineers itself it's a whole system that overlaps with accessibility and we have to be aware of the things we are doing there and probably it's the same with creating learning material so everything is connected to each other like internationalisation so subtitling it's the same challenge as for making videos accessible making it create the user experience a lot of different other things testing, QEA and so on are all connected somehow for accessibility and accessibility it's like a cross-cutting point through all these systems it's not all about having a good edge in the awareness of a particular thing and having this in mind we changed it to use the way we are working on accessibility I thought for us why are we doing and thinking about accessibility and one major point is really human rights and this reflects really to think about the users that are using our pages and probably are your pupils or your students as well with a lot of different kinds of accessibility and all of these persons with disabilities have not had at least formally as well the human right on accessibility or accessibility is part of the rise for people with disabilities that you have set up quite recently for a private company there is one article that basically says not only the public, not only schools not only the public sector in general the accounts of the boroughs are entitled to provide accessibility as well as the private sector because they are providing a lot of different kind of information that everyone relies on reading mails, having mailing lists reading news taking care of the finance doing online banking there are a lot of things people with disabilities have to do online and they rely on accessibility otherwise they would be excluded and that's a very fundamental sense as well a social responsibility of a company to do it right and think about it and who we started quite recently when I joined basically with a small team in Europe and a couple of few other colleagues that are disabled or are quite interested in their accessibility and so we started a way of changing small bits of code to make up a concept and going through it but there's a lot of things to change because it was quite all for the web so as we started in 1994 we have a lot of products a lot of code, lines of code already written they have to be reviewed, changed and so on it doesn't happen overnight but the interesting thing that we have seen is it's not only people with disabilities have the benefits but we have noticed that a lot of people that are older are benefiting for example silver surveys are still using the web or started to use the web and other countries where we for example have a user base of 55 plus of 20% for example in Japan and probably getting the same in the western world as well that the user base is going on so still it's getting more and more an issue for making a business and another point is to see how we are using the web so mobile and so on so we are using it everywhere and all these different challenges we have are the same that we probably people with disabilities have and that's probably the same with teaching learning so when we are learning somewhere outside of the classroom the way someone is learning probably changing as well so thinking of lectures on the iPod as a podcast for example so when we are looking at an accessibility detail we look into the guidelines I'm only rushing through the guidelines because they are public they are made by the web consulting making as a web application things accessible and it's the same system basic ideas apply really on the same way for learning materials so making learning material perceivable it's the same for us for you to make new perceivable that you can read the news that you can read the last stop quote and so on the same thing as with overalls so if you are looking at interaction it's a key part of learning to have interaction to do a hands on it's really to how do we do real accessible and for us it's really how to make it that way that someone can access for example a currency converter or any kind of interaction with an application and another quite important point for learning it's making it understandable to break it down in small pieces that everyone understands and the same applies for making the web accessible to make it easy to understand and use the right language for the audience making it that way accessible and the last really part of making things accessible is really to make it robust to think about how is the standard and how can I provide it to you with a sense of technology and provide learning material in different ways not only in a pds it only can be seen on screen but as well can be read with a screen reader or someone can turn the pages only by using the movement of the head and so on going through this system and looking how we want to check things if they're accessible and that's one part that teachers have to make the material accessible the same applies for how is our software accessible how is our web accessible and how we can change things and as a software engineer basically doing unit tests we use different kind of test tools that probably someone is using as well for making web content accessible and we are using a very common open source tools like like a wave toolbar checking online tests for visual impairment like colour tests how would a child or a baby see the colours and especially if you are working in the nursery doing a very very basic learning about things it's quite important to know how are colour seen and how can it provide information and for us it's quite important to provide information that way that everyone can access our information and use our services and we have the automated test as well with some tools but they are quite software engineering so I will skip them and another thing that's quite important it's quite important for you as a teacher that's probably kind of for the screen reader there's an open source screen reader called NVDA there's a URL for it it's running on windows windows XP and windows 7 and it's quite interesting to see how someone is blind can use the screen reader especially if you have first experience to have it on a blind pupil or blind student to learn to yourself how the person is really using a screen reader and how does it feel like and it's a very very affordable way to use an open phrase screen reader for testing yourself and we do the same test as well we are using such an open source screen reader to testing our own software our own search system and so on and so the last almost finishing now where our accessibility test are working and how we do the awareness training for people that have the decisions on getting content that is accessible making decisions about the architecture of a software to make it accessible and how everything started and we started three years ago with a voluntary group of probably five engineers in Europe to make a small change and now this system, this idea of a small team that is a task force and can be accessed and the information in the access is now spreading through here we have now one in our exporters in Sunnyvale we have one now in Bangalore and we are combining our force globally as well to be a key point for information and I think one good idea as well for university or school to have persons that are quite savvy in doing material accessible to have them in access and know who they are and probably talk to them probably they are already seeing the problems and already found a solution for such problems and makes their life much much easier and probably the same system we are using like the global task forces probably to create such a network between universities and schools of persons that have a deep knowledge about making learning material accessible because this was a system that would be used and it's quite accessible throughout and additionally to the idea that we did have in Europe and we are quite lucky because for people in Europe at least in Europe that are working in the new Europe are quite aware about accessibility and probably it's based on the British DDA or where I'm very glad that it exists in the UK so everyone, every engineer already stumbled about accessibility in the UK and it's a little bit different outside of Europe so we created accessibility lab in the US first with all kinds of different gadgets to make it accessible so single click devices particular kind of keyboards for showing people how someone is someone can create how to make things accessible it's not all about being blind that's quite a key important thing because a lot of people that are working on accessibility are blind but it's not all about being blind and this accessibility lens are quite important to show such things and so we created one in Bangalore as well of course there are a lot of people of engineers working there and it's quite important that they have seen the first time someone being able to use a computer only by moving the head or only moving the eyes Can you cancel the screen interaction? I don't know if that's stupid there's a it's going to back itself up ok tell me there was some automatic process started but I think you are ok I'm done I'm done some of them testing it everyone is awake this is my contact details I hope I didn't run too much of the time perfect timing perfect now for questions at the end so we're just going to swap over between Arthur and Donald but to you Donald thank you very much Jane ladies and gentlemen good morning it's a pleasure to be here I have to confess that when I said I suggested a title for this talk I have to I sat my off time with the children because what actually went through my mind was a line a line a line was so what did the Romans ever do for us the cup is half empty or we can look at it from the perspective the cup is half full you can say what does technology not do or what does it do so I'd like if I may go back to the mid-eighties in the Republic of Ireland which was the biggest legal time as we have now economic day and everything else at that particular point I remember this vividly actually it was one of our public libraries many public libraries got a reading machine it was called a Kurzweil Reading Machine there are some pictures of these things on the internet and I remember again I remember you calling in and using it a couple of times just to read the books and things it's a teenager it was amazing because the thing was a slightly washing machine and the keyboard that you used was a huge keyboard and the keyboard probably weighs more than two laptops but the interesting thing was that in 1980s Ireland this machine I can't remember the exact figure it was like a £30,000 a month at the time or 70,000 so it possibly cost as much as a house and it was revolutionary in the sense that the first time we started for many of us in Ireland we could then read books we could go in, put a piece of paper down and read it now I was a teenager so I didn't have that up in Ireland so I took my device and jumped forward and in 1991 I became the first fine student to start an ultimately completed degree in computer science in Ireland and at that particular time again the University of DCU where I'm now teaching was very very willing to purchase equipment but didn't really know what to buy so at that point we did some investigation and some other colleagues in the industry were most helpful and we purchased scanning software which again read books it's very interesting to look at it because that scanning software again it would come down to that point it only cost £4,000 which again in 1991 Ireland was supposed to help a lot of money now it's very interesting about all of this and it takes us to another side track and we say screen reading devices we can start looking from the development of the IEF and the late 80s early 90s and we had spaces incorporated into that so we look at inclusion and we consider now in 2010 where these devices have come from and are going to these devices were designed for blind people there's a little of the application used so I actually think if we look at inclusion we've blind people have actually been very generous in passing on our technology to you sight of people so if you look for example let's do a warmer response how many of you have GPS systems in your cards quite a few relying on speech synthesis to divide from the world of blind people to sight of people how many of you scan photographs into whatever computer you happen to use I'm sure quite a few of you other technology that has crossed the divide from blind people to sight of people we can look at these two ways we can say that inclusion is a one way street whereby accessibility comes from sight it's blind or we can look at it as a two way street which is that it's a mutually beneficial experience that is very evident by recent trends in mobile phone development and other talking devices my mobile phone of choice is the iPhone in device for lots of reasons it started off I think it's safe to say that the iPhone has pretty much revolutionised the way people use phones and view the internet on mobile devices years so Apple have built into this device technology which means that off the shelf my person can walk into whatever network that carries the phone I don't need extra hardware I don't need extra software I can enable assistive technology on my device this is a huge step forward because until now blind users mobile technology had to rely on third party software which cost a lot of money so you could go in and theory and buy a phone on whatever contract you happen to be and simply an operating system for maybe 75, 80, 85 pounds you then actually go to somebody else and spend 150 or 200 pounds to make it fit to you so the cost of actually doing this was for him he was putting people off now we have a situation where it's built into the device why is this useful for sight people it's useful because while I have a certain friend and I like the interaction that the technology actually provides voice recognition on the phone they use a world writer so it's a two-way street now so we can say that computer science so far has done pretty well it has an aim of blind people and those with disabilities I'm afraid I focus mainly on blinds and the issue of blinds is because I am talking blind myself but you should remember that you benefit from that who indeed the development of technology who have actually contributed to the development of mainstream technology but if we look now at learning environments learning is one area I feel where inclusion is still problematic classroom situations can be dealt with we have just completed a project called the avatar project HVITD which aimed to provide independent access to graphic material us, ourselves at DCU and a number of EU partners were very much involved in developing and evaluating systems for the production of what are called audio tactile diagrams in effect a diagram a tactile diagram is printed on a chemistry paper it's called swell paper that's then put on a touch screen to reveal the raised image and press on it to get triggered audio feedback now this is fine and it works very very well in the classroom situation I have several systems out there which actually have proven this the issue with all of this is that in an independent scenario which in many cases we're moving towards this kind of technology is problematic however for example we did a little experiment last week handed some we didn't have blind people so we didn't blindfolded the sight of people I just handed them a piece of paper with images on there was several consented servers filled in over the moment so this could be planetary orbit it could be absolutely anything and the open design was actually a picture of the human eye now the interesting thing about this is that for many blind people it's just servers and you just press on different parts and you actually get the information back but it's an example of the problems that actually exist for you as teachers to try to incorporate inclusion and accessibility into your classrooms many of you are sure platforms such as for example Moodle any of these kind of learning platforms how do you particularly in disciplines such as science geography, computer science anything which relies on diagrams how do you provide that kind of access to people who are blind and we are, I can give you the more information that the project is working on this offline but this is an issue which prevents in many cases blind people going on to further education there was an important book of some years ago by an organisation in Ireland called Ahead who represents students in third level education student disabilities and they noted that blind people were very very underrepresented in science particularly in Ireland people were not going into computer science not going into mathematics not going into anything because of lack of access so we need I think to look very carefully the role that technology plays in creating inclusive classrooms and inclusive independent e-learning platforms for blind people is something that's lagging a little bit behind the iPod as Art mentioned in his presentation is again back to that is a very very interesting device it provides a mechanism where you can deliver content in very very many different ways here's an example a class situation you're presenting information to people who can see now it's obvious they can print it out and bring it with them in a paper or in a PDF using the iPod very simply you can generate audio versions multiple mp3 maybe one mp3 per page of a set of overheads create a little playlist and just download the lesson to an iPod in exactly the same way as somebody cited it to use some technology it's very simple to do it's just thinking slightly outside the box another thing that actually still remains though is we're now moving to a point where it's e-learning whether it is interface generally where interfaces are becoming much more what I've described as busy again if we go back to the mid 90s you had dodge the old dox-based computers or as Jay mentioned I actually learned my first computer was a music micro and at that point you had one operating one program that was focusing your attention was character based and everybody was on a living plane then Windows 95 came along you could have two things open at the same time you could tend to focus on one screen you could flip very easily it was also graphic, it had a policy challenge that challenge has been surmounted now we've moved on to the fact where we're using things like Ajax Aria and lots of web-based interfaces and widgets doing different things on the screens screens are becoming very very busy visually you can do some very interesting things this application, this portion of your screen needs your attention when a few of three or four of those things is actually going on at the same time going to pose a problem for anybody using certainly the audio channel you can listen to several voices at the same time but the concentration levels and the perception levels will diminish the more challenges you actually are trying to process so I think what interface and computing needs to do now is to look if you will at how to give to give the user very much more control over their interface in other words, here's the announcement I'll give you I'm coming to the end of this imagine you're going into a supermarket and you want to buy some biscuits so you walk in and the first thing you do is you look for the idol itself of biscuits then you walk along and you decide to scan the entire array of the hundreds of pounds and hundreds of brands of biscuits that actually exist on that shelf and tell you this in person experience when you walk into that store you do the first bit and you feel like you're selecting from a high level menu the person who's guiding you around please remove the business style then when you get to the business of biscuits style, what do you do do you stand there for three hours to have every single brand this is the issue that actually faces us that is so much taken now that it actually has to be filtered out and I think the interfaces need to actually go to a paradigm shift in terms of what actually is filtered out not what's provided but giving the user the opportunity to filter things out rather than actually be all inclusive and this very much applies to your own learning scenarios because if you have lesson plans that involve videos and maybe animations and text so you've got a video playing on your screen and you've got text describing that video going on on the same web page and then maybe you've got questions at the bottom of that web page where the student actually has to answer the answer to those questions is based of course on the text and the video which is both playing simultaneously and all that is trying to be felt through the screen and through audio you've got a problem for the simple reason that the student is going to waste very valuable cognitive effort on understanding what's going on actually absorbing the information they won't be able to process the information so an example would be exposing you to a mathematical equation and you're trying to present that to the student in audio I don't know whether you have any math teacher to actually hear you try to do this we are working on another way of actually presenting mathematics using Braille and using synthetic speech again if anybody is interested I won't bore you with the details but if anybody is interested do please feel free to talk to me offline now if you have a student who is trying to remember, listen to an equation and they get one shot and you can see minus F plus G that's it, that's all they get and they're going to try and actually mean the same scenario applies to the very very busy interface I just alluded to a second ago so my challenge for you today my thought for you today would be this in order to foster inclusion in your classrooms think about the fact that not everybody absorbs information to derive it to the visual cortex we all use every single sense of the capital as well even so constantly but when you're designing your lessons and your lesson plans just be aware that if you can actually keep your stream of information simple keep the flow of the information simple and give the user to control all the information so that they can get some time to review the text several times for the screen readers like slower play the video again and not have too many things going on simultaneously I think you will find that the inclusivity in your classrooms and in your e-learning environments which in thermal thoughts of the independence and the independent learning is necessary in the 2010 academic culture I think you will find that you will develop more inclusive learning content for your students irrespective of whether they have a disability or they don't thank you very much indeed so we have time for questions comments, reflections to all three of us who spoke so Annie is that first okay okay question to Walter you get this in time in your talk I see accessibility as having two hearts really there's the product oriented half where you do your estimate that's accessible to some kind of idea of people that you have in your head and then there's the user oriented perspective where one might talk about what individuals require from systems and really I see the whole thing as some kind of relationship between those two halves and various ways exist to sort of balance those two halves and to actually manage that relationship so one way is to select a number of users and assemble of users and test things accessible to you another way focusing particularly at the user end is to deal with profiles of user requirements a little bit like the sort of profiles you fill in when you sign up for a who account or a Google account my experience is that these don't really handle accessibility yet I kind of wonder what if you could say something about efforts that your who make how they actually balance that relationship Do we have a special group that's called User Experience Designers Is that a lot enough? The basic idea there is really to do the user test as you mentioned and to create a special group called User Experience Designers and they are doing the user test at the beginning and when the product is further scrolling out and I'm quite in close contact with this group because a lot of concepts are important for the usability are part of accessibility as well and especially the spur of the designs of graphical designs to manage the things appealing are quite important for accessibility for making a way of graphical or colour contrast and other simple big enough that they can be used by someone who can't navigate their mouse very well but there are some cases where it's some disagreement and sometimes the accessibility is helping the user experience designers to break their task down to a particular work for who can't find the new accessibility it's really about getting a task done in a very short time and not how it doesn't look like nice to find the next step for the task and sometimes this close work there is quite fruitful as in football signs to learn about user that don't have accessibility problems how they experience the web and how we can include accessibility including the learning process at the moment thank you any other comments, questions, reflections do you want to switch the mic on? hello I was very interested in the point that was made about making learning content more or less a single stream rather than multimedia do you think there is a conflict between e-technologies to constantly being nice to make their content interactive as interactive as possible and the concept of accessibility for all the learners? question for you John no I don't I think again I will describe it as it's a hobby part of mine actually different views of the same data in the sense that there is no reason if you have content that is properly designed and if you have a content that is separated from how it is viewed then there is no reason for people who are not mine for example you can't have a view of it which is very very possibly flash based on the graphic of nature however if you have got people who can't see the graphics then there is no reason that same information can't be presented in a different way there is a slight issue in the sense that many things now are actually happening as I said in my talk that does pose a problem but I go back to what I said in the sense that the ability to access technology to actually filter that information out is becoming I think more and more sexual to in order to actually use more of a different basis Let it be back in pink I'd just like to agree with what Donald said there I think if you'd adopt a design for diversity or a design for approach I think you can create accessible interfaces for people who don't have disabilities as well and it's really just making a cultural change so that people do design for diversity rather than for some average person who doesn't have any disabilities but it is going to be a cultural change that is quite difficult to achieve and something that I hope everybody in this room will be committed to spreading amongst our colleagues Thank you I think that's certainly a really interesting point. There was two phrases that you said, design for diversity design for all linking into my message earlier about challenging conceptualisations what does design for all mean and is that the same as designing for diversity I think that's a real challenge for us to think about before Andy has a second go Anybody else? I guess that's earlier message and I just wanted to make it the general points and also following on from the comments about designing for diversity I think there is a lot of people who work in this kind of area who may themselves not be disabled but want to do the right thing sometimes mistakenly assume that designing for all means one side fits all and that's a huge mistake because every person is going to use technology in a different way the way that I use my mobile phone may be completely different to the way my friend uses exactly the same model of phone so the key is to design for flexibility and to have multiple ways of using the same thing or accessing the same data so that one person who may respond very well to flash face a very visual, very interactive way of using something the person sitting next to them may need to use exactly the same piece of equipment on the same software but in a completely different way so the key should be designing for diversity meaning flexible multiple ways of accessing something rather than a one side fits all because there is no average person and if we do try to design for an average person everyone loses out that is the thing designing for diversity giving the user control making the system flexible so that he can insert control over it Donald, Arthur do you want to respond at all to your conceptions of what designing model means is the idea of making design for diversity is a key point because it's really the way of the content or the web page or learning information is accessible in a different way is reflecting as well the way of how many devices you can now use for accessing the learning experience because now we can access the information on the go where we don't have a huge screen where 506 frames are fitting in where you can observe a lot of information at the same time sometimes now you can get information on TV with a low resolution so you can't get the same information the way way probably you don't have a mouth point on it so the way people are interacting with learning material with the web is changing completely and the providers of such information have to think about diversity not only in case of different kind of users but different kind of using devices and different ways and situations where someone is using it is one point where I said it's quite important for us as well to think about situative disabilities everyone has a particular situation a particular disability depending on the circumstances so by thinking about that someone is able to use the web application on the go, on the private again and so on it's quite important to know to provide the information in the way that is suitable for the situation and being able for example to increase the contrast where it's sunny and such things Very briefly The analogy again I go back to my GPS knowledge that I made in my presentation a phrase that's come in to UI design recently is an ocean of person being what's called situation blind in the words they're in a situation where looking at a screen, looking at the UI is simply not possible a classic example of that of course is something like a GPS in a car solution you really don't want to be looking at a map but trying to be navigating around about the same time so given that the design for our approach of having a device which speaks actually works on my mobile phone I actually have a GPS solution which is an awful shell of GPS solution because it is designed to use an apple standard graphical windows using cocoa framework and means that it's supposed to voice over to the screen reader on the iPhone so I can type in the address I'm looking for I can look for the points of interest around me etc and then I can use the system and it's active the same way as somebody who could see the only additional thing is that I have my voice over screen reader enabled so the site user will type in the address maybe it's the site different interaction on the keyboard but the same effective workflow if you want to call it that that would be the example that I would use to describe it I've been told I need to finish at 8 minutes pass so I think Andy if you'll forgive me I'll stop here and I'd like you all to thank our speakers I think they've had a really interesting start to the morning so thank you very much