 Welcome and happy Monday. So glad that each and every one of you are here with us today for another episode of the Nonprofit Show. Today we have back with us one of my favorite friends, Mitch Stein, who is CEO of Pond. And Mitch is here to talk to us about the seven best practices when it comes to controversial cause fundraising. So excited to hear more from you about this Mitch. Julia Patrick, we have you to thank for this amazing platform. Thank you for being the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy and bringing the Nonprofit Show to life. I'm Jarrett Ransom, Julia's co-host and her favorite nonprofit nerd, but there's plenty of nerdiness to go around. I am the CEO of the Raven Group. Julia and I are so very honored to have the continued support by so many amazing companies. So I will read aloud our presenting sponsors. Those of you watching, you can see their logo. So you can see that name recognition. Thank you so much to Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Fundraising Academy, Nonprofit Nerd, Your Part Time Controller, Staffing Boutique and the Nonprofit Thought Leader. These companies keep us going and growing for conversations like the one that we are about to have. We are coming up on our 600th episode and I think it's sooner rather than later. Oh, I really need to check. I really need to check to see which one this is, Mitch. But if you missed any of our episodes or you wanna go back and re-watch them, you of course can find us on Roku, YouTube, Fire TV and well, as well as Vimeo. Plus, if you're a podcast listener like I am, you can also queue us up on your streaming podcast. So go ahead and queue up the Nonprofit Show wherever you wanna watch and listen because Mitch is about to blow your mind. He's got so much information to share. Now, Mitch, you are not new to the show. You've been on before and I'd share with you in a green room chat or like, whoa, Pond has come such a long way from the very first time you were on. So let me just start by saying welcome back and thank you for being here. No, thank you for having me. It's exciting to check back in with you must see you're later for my first time on the show. And I'm really excited to share with everyone. Yeah, well, tell us a little bit, reacquaint us with Pond. You are what you do. And then I know we've got seven key best practices that we're gonna move quickly through, but let's start a little bit by reacquainting us with Pond. Yeah, of course. And I know we've got a lot to get through, but quickly, so I'm Mitch from the CEO and co-founder of Pond. Simply it's where nonprofits thrive. We just try to break down barriers to the best tools, services, training, resources, whatever nonprofits need most. It works a lot like Angie's list, but instead of seeking on a handyman, you post a project for that piece of software you need the consultant, the training, whatever it is. And we match you with vendors to the marketplace and you build up credits as you engage with people and review and manage that whole search process through Pond. So it's really making that entire process of finding the right vendor, the right provider of what you need most, streamline, transparent and peer-based as you're doing it with your community. So excited to share more with you today. And we do a lot of programming and resources just like this discussion we're gonna have today around controversial fundraising. Awesome. And as soon as I had you on or we had you on earlier, I went on, I joined Pond. So for those of you watching, listening, joinpond.com. That's where you can find more about this amazing company. So you mentioned seven controversial topics that we're gonna talk about and you had another conversation webinar about this and you said it was probably one of your most fascinating ones. So let's get controversial, Mitch, you ready? I am ready. Now, yeah, for some context, as you mentioned, we host a weekly conversation on Pond every Thursday at noon on a whole range of nonprofit topics. And recently we did one on, hey, what if I always hear about how St. Jude's did this amazing fundraising initiative or the ASPCA. But oftentimes a lot of us are fundraising for topics that aren't so universally agreeable. We're really pushing the envelope and a lot of people might not agree or push back on what we're doing and how do you fundraise effectively in the face of that? So that's what inspired the conversation that produced all these great points we're gonna talk through today. Perfect. Well, let's start with number one. Again, for those of you watching, listening, there's seven. So if you wanna get out your pen and paper, I know I have mine ready. Let's start with number one, which is peeling back the politics. What does this mean? Yeah, I think oftentimes controversy or in people's minds means like politicized. You know, nonprofits are supposed to be feel good. We can all agree on it, warm and fuzzies. But oftentimes if we're pushing change, like we're pushing for disruption and you meet resistance. And especially in today's day and age, a lot of those things have been politicized. So the people we had on the panel were talking about reproductive rights organizations or people powering the vaccine effort or people fighting for racial justice. And sometimes those get drawn along political lines. And they found in their fundraising conversations to just really focus on the issue at hand, like the human element, the lives you're affecting and try everything you can to just not get into the politics and really focus the conversation on the human impact, the cause that you can both agree on. I love that. And, you know, Julie and I have said over the last two, now three years, there's so many pandemics happening, plural, not just COVID-19. There's social injustice. There's environmental conflict. There's political divide. There's so much going on. And so really peeling back the politics and focusing on that impact is a great starter for this. Now, how do we align this with our mission? So how do we surround ourselves, you know, with that mission alignment when it comes to our people? And I'm assuming maybe this is our donors? Yeah, so I think a big thing is just acknowledging that there's controversy, right? If you just pretend like everything's nice and Mormon fuzzy, it is gonna blindside you. Yeah, you can't have your blinders up. And so I think in acknowledging, like I'm doing something hard and I'm pushing forward a hard conversation to have and you've got to have your support system in place. So make sure that you've got the people around you on your team, on your board. And I think checking in with them regularly when you know it's hard to keep pushing these challenging conversations or you're hearing negative thoughts in the media, maybe in comments on your own social media, on your Facebook, we heard a lot of that from some of our presenters to just like be circling back with everyone and be like, hey, we're doing a great thing. We're getting this together. We really believe in it. And it's really hard, if not impossible to do that on your own. You have to have a support system of other people around you. Your direct team, your board and like you said, your major donors. Yeah, and that mission alignment is so critical. And I feel that I hear this often is that this is a non-partisan issue, right? Whatever it is, it's a non-partisan issue or it should be a non-partisan issue and really surrounding ourselves with the people that get that impact at the bottom line. Now, when you mentioned social media, right? That is definitely like a divide. And I can tell you, even with my own immediate family, there's not, we all think differently. So how do we navigate differences but maybe find some common ground? Yeah, I mean, I think one of the great examples that was in this discussion we had was around vaccination efforts and obviously vaccines have been super politicized in a way we never experienced before. We never knew vaccines fell along a certain party line. And this organization is providing vaccinations to underprivileged youth primarily who don't necessarily have equal healthcare access. And so what Connie who spoke really brought it back to bring it to that human health and health equity element and like the disparities we see in our local community and start there and then adding on to that the layers of data that you have around the effectiveness of what you're doing and saying like set aside the COVID vaccine where we've gotten all this press but vaccines work and they're really effective at protecting our community health. And it's really important we reach those populations that don't have the same access. So I think finding that common ground where like who can disagree with health equity amongst kids, right? Even if there's this controversial layer, there's always the like we have shared human values. And I think moving the conversation there, it's kind of a second step to the deep politicizing. It's like, okay, now that we've taken the politics out of it, let's actually go deeper down to that core human element. And that's just really critical to take the hostility and some of like the hot air out of a conversation. And you're like, you're talking about things none of us can disagree with. Yeah, and talk about hot air, right? Like it has gotten hot over these last three years. I live in a community to Mitch where there's a lot of rural communities. And so you talk about access to healthcare and it's been so inequitable forever, forever existence, right? And I'm speaking in particular with so much tribal and sovereign land here in Arizona. And so how do we provide access and equitable access to something that, you know, so many of privilege have the choice, you know? You have access to that. So I appreciate you giving us a tool on how do we navigate these differences? Empathy has been a big conversation over, I wanna say the last three years as has grace, right? Like give yourself grace, give others grace. But you're talking about managing conflict with empathy. Let's dive deep in that because that is a big subject. Yeah, I mean, I would say first on this one, like feedback is a gift. Even if it's negative, like that's a gift. It's really hard to get people to tell you what they're thinking. And so if someone brings feedback to you, even if you don't agree with it, like, and this is true within your organization, within your donor base, like as a leader, you have to start off by thanking someone for giving you the feedback. And don't qualify. Don't say thank you for the candid feedback. Like, no, they were telling you how they felt and just start off with like an appreciation that someone shared with you because they have enough respect for you to actually come to you and tell you they disagree with something. Worse would be hearing nothing. So I think that can help set your stage of empathy is like, you're giving me a, we can now talk about this. I now know where you stand. How else can I move the needle if I don't know where people stand or where their issues are? So someone has given you a gift. And I think when you frame it in that way, it's a lot easier to be like, oh, thank you for giving that to me. I wanna understand more. Do you mind if I ask you a few more questions? And then it's, you've taken the, again, back to taking the hostility out. You're not like just launching a counterattack. You are learning more deeply about someone's position. And ultimately, if you're trying to drive change and especially if it isn't something that has become controversial for whatever reason, you have to understand the human why behind that resistance. If you're going to move the needle. So appreciate those people. And I think that helps you have empathy. That takes a lot of practice. Yeah. And I love that you said, don't describe the feedback as candid. And I would have never thought that because I would have thought that like that extra little word in there would make it feel a less or sound a less tongue-in-cheek where it's like, thanks for your feedback, i.e. I will take that in consideration, right? Which we all know what that means. It's like, yeah, that's not going anywhere. So thank you for the feedback. And then I love what you said, Mitch, is it's a gift. And for me, I know I would probably have to take a deep breath or several deep breaths and then really engage in a conversation. As you said it, the true empathetic way to say, may I ask you some more questions about this so that I can better understand where you're coming from? And again, I said, that takes a lot of practice. I mean, I'll admit that's not easy for me all the time. No, I mean, in a lot of ways, though like Zoom or internet interaction, virtual interaction, we think of as all negative but sometimes in settings like this, it's nice because you get to like collect yourself. You're not in a room with someone where you need to like walk away. You have distance, you have safety where a lot of times if you were having that conversation in person. So I think, or if you get an email or a comment that is asking someone for a conversation is the best next step. It's gonna make them feel seen and heard and continue to have respect for you and you're really gonna learn which is ultimately what you wanna be doing by engaging with that broader population. You keep that core group close but you wanna keep learning from the people that aren't yet in that core group. Yeah, no, it's so, you're so right and I'm just acknowledging it's not always easy. Yeah, totally. For myself, along with empathy comes with keeping it real and for those of you that might be keeping track, this is number five, so five of seven, keeping it real. How do we keep it real, Mitch, with our donors? So the single best thing you can do here is have the information. So whenever you are dealing with a more controversial topic, you got to give, you are educating people all the time. There's controversy because people are ignorant and that's the, you're doing all these things, bringing it back to the human element, finding common ground because people aren't on the same page about the facts or the data or what works. Like they have different opinions and so I think the more that you can take this as an opportunity to educate others, like I have done years and years of fundraising for HIV and AIDS causes and there is still so much ignorance about the HIV epidemic and I just found my fundraising always was an opportunity for education. So even if someone isn't donating, they're still learning and shifting their own stigma by being in my audience and hearing what I have to say. And so I think that's the core of this one is like keeping it real. It's like, here's the stats. Like again, back to not opinions. Here's the stats. Here's where this issue stands in our community. Here's the opportunity. Here's how effective what we're doing is. And I think that's where you're really owning your own power. Like you're an authority on this topic, right? And so you can really show that to people and bring that into a conversation. And whenever you're looking at numbers, again, that really helps keep it out of the personal realm. You're just like, hey, let's just talk about what's working. You know, what's your issue? Well, I'll tell you about what we're doing and what we're seeing and what we see from our peers and with all this information, and that's why we're so focused on this thing. Numbers are so helpful to have a conversation. And then you're also arming your donors with the stats and information to be carrying that message forward for you. It just makes it tangible. And now they really feel like they're capable of taking that difficult controversial conversation off your shoulders. You are empowering your audience to help you so that it's not all on your shoulders as a fundraiser. And as you say this, I envision an infographic and it could be digital, it could be printed, it could be interactive. And I literally see the headline that says, maybe it is around HIV, here's the facts, dot, dot, dot. And you have infographic that are stats. It's medical stats and it shows down to the granular. Here's the community. Here's the impact, as we said earlier, several steps go about like, here's the bottom line as it impacts every person, every human here in our community, here's the facts. And then as you said, you're also arming your advocates, be it your staff, your board, your volunteers, anyone to say, here's information that we can share because I agree with you. It is our job and duty to educate, but I also think it's our job and duty to help educate others to educate, right? So to get that ripple effect, if you will. So having a document that says, hey, we're gonna keep it real. Here's the facts. This is what we're telling our donors. And the reality too, Mitch, is the facts could be dismal. They could not be rainbows and butterflies. They could be kind of sobering statistics. Yeah, and I think that's often a way to rally people around something, by don't shy away from the negative, right? It's like, we haven't done a great job in the past. We need to put more focus on this. I think that's really, that's a hard, like you said, a lot of the things we're saying today are not super easy or everyone would do them swimmingly. There's a reason we're encouraging and bringing these things up because they're not easy. They're effective, but it takes a strategy, which is why we're talking through all the elements this. Yeah, as you say that, I'm curious, is there an organization that is doing this swimmingly? Is there a couple of organizations that you can think of? Maybe they're hitting all seven out of the park or four of the seven. Is there any organization in the nation that you would say this is a pilot nonprofit? Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't, obviously striving for excellence, not perfection. I think that's probably another, could be at a point number eight in here. In terms of like, who are shining examples? I mean, I can speak to the LGBT Center in New York City who runs the Northeast AIDS ride that I've participated in. And so I'm just very close with the work that they're doing. And I think they are doing a very good job of identifying issues like LGBTQ, huge spectrum, right? And they've done a really good job of bringing that community together around where folks are the most marginalized or the biggest issues are happening and focusing on protecting trans youth of color and the discrimination that they're facing and creating more advocacy efforts around that. And they're doing it with statistics, that they trans people of color are like 12 times as likely to contract HIV. And what are the ways you can prevent that with better community, better substance abuse treatment for youth, which is something that's the center pioneered. So really like wrapping their programming and messaging around those core statistics and how they've like really harnessed that broader community into these core issues, I think has been super powerful. And it all comes down to good tracking, good storytelling, good data, which is now empowering your, the people participating in your programs, by the way, understanding that and being a voice for that is also huge. It's not just donors. And so I think making them both a part of the story and capable of being ambassadors is huge. So there's just no shortage of getting that, the core storytelling down helps you align with the data, motivate people, focus on the cause and not the personal or the political, all the things we've been talking about when you can bring it down into that, those concrete stories and data points, it just makes it really powerful for everybody. Well, thank you. I know that was a curveball question, but it was perfect. Yeah, I appreciate the shout out so we can all learn from this amazing organization. Now this slide, for those of you listening, it looks very peaceful with some Buddha's off to the side. I said, Mitch, when we ran through this mindset and controversy, like this looks very zen to me, but how should we set our mind when it comes to controversy? Because we've talked about empathy, we've talked about having the facts, but talk to us about now our mindset in this. Yeah, I think an important thing to remember is that controversy can be an asset. So while it's uncomfortable to be receiving negative comments, someone in our session described it as emotional shrapnel. If you're seeing protesters out there fighting against something that you deeply believe and in value, that can be really harmful, but at the same time, like we had a speaker on who is a fundraiser for the Planned Parenthood League of Massachusetts. And they were just like, when the news about Roe v. Wade being overturned came out, we just had this outpouring of support and people coming to us wanting to know what they could do. And I think this gets back to recognizing who's in your inner circle. And if you were doing something that everyone felt fine with, it's actually as easy to move people to action and be diehard advocates. And I think embrace, sometimes embracing a bit of the controversy and knowing, like haters gonna hate or whatever phrase you wanna use, like you're gonna have some haters when you are making change and making waves, but it's easy to get distracted by that negative energy and the hate and you lose sight of, wow, but I've got this amazing cohort of people that are here for me like every step of the way. And that mindset of like intentionally focusing on the positive is so valuable because otherwise you can really miss what people are wanting to give to you and your cause. And so being mindful of where it's an asset and where you can lean into it and even point it out, right? To rally people around you, point out the negativity. Say like, hey, people are out here saying this, but in reality, like you know what we stand for, you know what we're doing, if we're looking to you for support and that can really rally your base and I know we're not getting political so I'll use some political terms, but rally your base for your cause and make sure they know what you're up against and don't shy away from sharing the controversy and the hardship because that can really engender a lot of genuine support, which is what we really want. You know, it makes me think there's so much noise these days and there's so many places where we can hear the noise, consume information, be it true information or not true information. Less true information. Less true information, that's right. That's a better way to say it. And so I can only imagine, you know, our mindset plays a big role in that. As I mentioned earlier, you know, even in my own family, we have different mindsets and we think differently, we vote differently and really looking at that. Now, how does the mindset and the empathy all play a part now with nurturing our own mental health? Because this talks a little bit, now she is looking zen, right? She's meditating here in this photo, this young woman protecting, nurturing your mental health. How the heck do you do that, Mitch, when you just provided six, this is now our seventh controversial topic. How do we focus that and keep a mental health protection? Yeah, I think there's a reason this is last, right? Because this is sort of like the wrap around like both foundational, right? You can't offer empathy to others. You can't recognize the value in people around you and your community if you're not in a good place yourself mentally. And look, all nonprofit work is draining. You know, anything that's rooted in care for others, you have like secondhand trauma often involved or you're just, it's extra draining when you're pouring into people. And I think that added layer if you're in the midst of controversy where you also now have to figure out processes and practices to take in negativity and know how to deal with that. And at an intellectual level, we can all agree on these first six things, like how those work, but that stuff seeps down into us. There's no avoiding it. And so I think, you know, understanding where your boundaries are, when do you need, when are you burnt out? When do you need to take a break? Like, you know, as we said at the very beginning, recognizing you're in controversy, recognizing that this is challenging and making sure you're in touch with those boundaries. Everyone's mental health journey is different. I know you and I have talked about this before. I deal with a lot of anxiety. I know my signs. I know I need to be in therapy. I know I need to be exercising. Like it works for everyone differently, like what their requirements are in their experience. And I think it's just so important to talk about it, like share with your team when something hurts, like share with your, you know, find the people you can share with. Sometimes you don't wanna bring that all back to your family or your personal life. So, you know, peer groups are amazing. Other, like this was something even on the panel we hosted amongst these three speakers, even in that exact session, they felt seen and heard by each other, all in different parts of the country tackling different causes, but going through a lot of similar experiences. And we all like the session ended and we kind of just sat there and everyone exhaled and were like, I was so glad to be in this space with you, you know? And so I think just finding those, your outlets, understanding what works for you and you cannot keep it inside. You can't handle this all on your own. And that support structure, whatever works for you and your own mental health journey, give yourself the space to both explore and invest in that. Thank you. Thank you for waving that flag and making sure that, you know, mental health is a topic for this because you're right. I mean, I have shared publicly my own mental health journey and everyone's is different, you know? And so really looking at that, one of the things I like to add to this conversation is for those of you in leadership, please advocate for yourself, model that behavior for others. And then also, you know, again, as you model, you're also really inviting your peers, your staff to do the same. I had shared in another conversation, Mitch, that, you know, when someone brags about how many vacation hours they have and they haven't gone on a vacation in years, I'm like, that's actually a red flag. Like that's not something to brag about. That to me gives me pause for concern and for you and your mental health. So thank you for sharing these top seven best practices when it comes to controversial conversations. You know, as we said, they're not always easy. And I think there's a quote that said, you know, nobody said it would be easy, but it would definitely be worth it. Yeah. Who knows, who knows who said that? I'm sure it was some brilliant master. But Mitch Stein, CEO of Pond, thank you for joining us today. We buzzed through these seven topics. And again, for those of you that are curious about Mitch and his amazing company, please do check out joinpond.com. As I mentioned, Julie and I have had Mitch on before. I think this might be your second appearance. Parents, and you've come such a long way with your company. I think last time you were presenting in New York and it was again in like a peak of COVID and you had to switch around some locations. So thanks for all that you've done in our community and all that you continue to do. I know I'm going to check out one of your Thursday conversations because that sounds amazing. I of course want to thank our sponsors. So thank you to our presenting sponsors that allow us these conversations with Mitch here. So thank you to Bloomerang, to American Nonprofit Academy, Fundraising Academy, Nonprofit Nerd, Your Part Time Controller, Staffing Boutique and the Nonprofit Thought Leader. We are so very honored to have their commitment, their support for these unscripted conversations that allow us to talk about some controversial topics. When Julia asked me to join her as co-host, again, for two weeks we joke about this all the time. And here we are on three years, 600 episodes. I said, yes, as long as it's like the view for nonprofits, yeah, thank you, thank you. And it is, it's so much fun. I love having these conversations, Mitch. I'm so honored to have you back and just really privileged to sit alongside and watch your growth in the sector. And just, again, it's been fantastic to watch. So thank you for joining us. No, thank you for having me. Always great to see you and congratulations on all the episodes and the progress and the people you've met. It's just an amazing initiative you all run. So appreciate you doing it for the sector. Yeah, absolutely. It's, as I said, it's a labor of love some days, but I love waking up to do it. So thank you for being a part of this amazing journey. And for all of you watching and listening, we thank you for being a part of this amazing journey. Please join us back tomorrow. In fact, this entire week, we have a robust lineup, excited for all of our guests. And Mitch kicked us off for this Monday. I always say, you know, Friday gets all the fun. Why doesn't Monday get some fun too? So I'm gonna coin it, okay? Yeah, but for all of you joining us, please join us back here tomorrow. Until then, I hope you stay well so you can do well.