 This is Dennis McMahon and welcome to Positively Vermont. And today we are going to be speaking with Doris Sumner, who is the president of Empowering Gender Opportunities. And we're gonna be talking about all kinds of things, but notably combating sexism and discrimination in employment and other areas. And she is gonna be very helpful to people, whether as individuals or organizations and businesses facing this problem. Welcome Doris. Thank you Dennis. Thank you for having me and thank you for the opportunity to speak on this topic. Thank you. Well, first of all, tell us a little bit about yourself. Well, I retired from the Army National Guard last year. So I'm in retirement status and that's a great privilege to have. And I am working on a book, writing a book, and I launched Empowering Gender Opportunities, my business, last year, which is a diversity consulting business. So although I'm retired, I'm very busy, live at home with my son who's 22, go on to college, my husband who's a retired veteran as well, and I have a five-year-old granddaughter. So that's what's going on with me. Great. Well, tell us about your experience with the Guard and maybe how that impacted on the post or the retirement profession you're doing now. Yes. So I spent 36 years of my life in the Army, but the last 13 years, I was the state equal employment manager. So I process discrimination cases and the bulk of my work was, or the bulk of my cases was sexual harassment and gender discrimination. And so part of being an EEO manager is helping the adjunct general create command climates where people want and can thrive, regardless of who they are, regardless of their gender or their nationality race. And so some of the issues in the military around sexual harassment, unfortunately they've had a long, long history of sexual harassment and sexual assault issues is that the military still is male majority. It's 85% men. And it's not that all men sexually harass or anything, but it creates this culture where it's very predominantly masculine. So those who join in order to be successful must assimilate. So there is a disadvantage for women. And so the cases that came before me, it was very challenging to, because the solution was to change the culture. And it's hard to change a culture that is centuries old and has operated. Women have been in the guard since 1972. So although we've been in the guard 50 years, the representation of women in power positions, those who are influential, has remained very underrepresented. So that's what inspired me to really take a look at the problem of having less women in the power core. And yeah, so it's inspired me to really focus on gender. Oftentimes when people think of diversity, they think of race. And especially in Vermont, they think of, oh, we don't have diversity because Vermont's the whitest state in the nation, but diversity is so much more than race. And another thing that I find is people don't think of gender as a culture. And they think, well, I don't care if you're male or female, I just care that you're a competent worker. But right from the get-go gender expectations for boys and girls socializes differently. And so that shows up in the workplace. And specifically in those workplaces where it's been predominantly men for centuries or decades. And so women who enter those sort of occupations are coming at it from their feminine lens and their feminine socialization. But because it's male majority, they're asked to assimilate to a male culture. So that's kind of the never-ending problem is trying to balance those two worlds. Well, maybe you can tell us a little bit about this for people who might not be as familiar. What is really the status of gender discrimination in Vermont? How pervasive is it? Or even talking nationally? Yeah, well- We seem to be one of the few countries in the world that has never had a female head of state or head of government as in Britain and Canada and other Germany, of course, other places. And the so-called number one position in the country. But maybe just talk about this in Vermont from the corporate level and the government level and any levels you have experience with. Yeah. Well, Vermont changed the story is a huge organization who has put out annually reports about the gender disparity and the wage gap between men and women and the economic impacts of that. And so in their latest report that they produced last year, they document how polls estimate a third of women in the United States experience sexual harassment. So it is globally, it is nationally, it is part of our command climate. It's part of our climate that sexual harassment is very pervasive and very harmful. And it doesn't just happen to women. Obviously men are victims of sexual assault and sexual harassment as well too. But predominantly has affected women because it's all about who's in power and who's in control. And so that's why gender equality is so important to have both men and women be part of the organization's decisions and command climates because that's gonna minimize the sexual base offenses that happen. So it definitely impacts all of us every day. And I speak from the military frame of reference because that's where I grew up. That's where my professional life was. But I do recognize that it is everywhere. It is in the grocery stores, it is in the fast food, it is in corporate America and law enforcement, it's everywhere. And so our attention to it because oftentimes our gender bias is very unintentional and it's very unconscious. The things that we say are the expectations that we have. And so that's why having conversations about it and raising our awareness helps us be more intentional when we're creating teams, when we're working on teams, when we're in charge of teams. And I think it's going to, there's all kinds of evidence to show the more we're diversifying, the better products that we have, the better command culture we have and the less negative impacts that we have. So. Well, is it about numbers or is it about money or is it about authority? How many different areas does this involve because someone might point out that the idea of racial discrimination in this country in certain regions might seem passe and it's so obvious if it occurs. How does this discrimination occur? How subtle is it? Yeah. Well, it's very subtle in a lot of ways. The term you guys is one thing that people just generally say, well, I know you mean men too, but the term actually comes from a male pronoun, the word guy, but women are just much more, you know, willing to say I know you mean me too instead of to say I would like to be recognized. Whereas if we said you gals, men might say I'm not a gal and reject that. And so be more attentive to the words that are coming out of our mouth. And when you talk about racism and other forms of discrimination, I focus on gender because gender crosses all forms of diversity, regardless of your color or your ethnicity, your religion, your economic status, gender is an identity that all human beings take on. And there are an increased number of people who don't wanna identify as a binary, either male or female. So that's a trend that's happening, but we have this long historical gender expectation bias that happens. So it's very subtle in the way that it shows up in our work centers and how we treat each other. And little things, even using intentional words to identify somebody makes such a difference on feeling empowered and feeling appreciated and wanting to stay there and do a good job for that employer or that team. Just recognizing somebody makes such a difference. How much of this is sort of culturally inherited and or maybe geographically inherited stuff? How do you deal with that kind of mindset? Yeah, that's, and again, I don't think my one book or my one voice is gonna change the world, but I wanna be part of the solution and having that because it is globally, there has always been the issue of a disparity between feminine and masculine. And women have more negatively been impacted by that disparity. And so on my website, it's all about ego. It truly is, it's okay to have a healthy ego, it's good. But when we have an ego where we think we're superior to another person, regardless if I'm superior because I'm Catholic and you're Jewish or because I'm white and you're black or because I'm male and you're female, whatever our superiority, ego, we started pressing others for who they are. And so when we think about ego, we think about when we feel good about ourselves and who we are, we also must feel good about who other people are and what they bring to the team. And it may be very different from what I have. And so I do think it's a lot about ego. It's all about ego and being okay with who we are so that we can lift other people up. And that's really hard to change because our world was really built on ego. So how do we change egos through humility and through practice and through intentional acts? And so again, my book and my business is all about bringing those conversations into teams to think about how am I respecting you, how am I valuing you, even though you're very different from me and you see things from a different lens. I wanna engage with you and I want to benefit from what you can bring to my team, to my business and versus here, a senile be like me and you'll be just fine if you're just like me and we devalue people when we do that. How does this interact with the other categories, transgender, gay and other people who are in a, are they in a different category or is this just the idea is to treat people as you would treat yourself, no discrimination, no bias, none of that. Yeah, certainly the transgender community, LGBT community are impacted by sexism because again, we come from a long history of the binary male female and the expectations and that we, the traditional roles that were indoctrinated into our upbringing and American values where women, where are the mothers and the caretakers and they stay home and care for the children. And so it's been this long transition from non-binary expectations. So it can get a little deep there but it affects everybody because it really is to see a human being that has a beard and is wearing a dress. It's really off-putting to many, but they're a human being. They're a human being that have heart and red blood, they have soul and they have aspirations. So that's the long tedious transition of respecting human beings on the plant regardless of what they look like, how they dress, what language they speak, what faith they choose to practice. It's just respecting that human being and embracing who they want to identify as. That's a lot. It is. And also you have the whole idea of the corporations and even the public institutions being subject to the law, state, federal and even local laws about discrimination. How do you deal with that from the legal standpoint? Well, the discrimination cases, and this is the real challenge for all organizations, but specifically the military because again, there's hundreds and hundreds of years, the leaders are in charge of the disposition of cases. Certainly we have the law, we have to practice the Equal Opportunity Commission laws. But there's a lot of bias that goes into just an employee going to a supervisor and saying I feel discriminated against and I feel like I haven't been interviewed appropriately or I haven't been given the assignments to excel. A lot of it can stop right there with a leader with a supervisor who's really listening to how that person is perceiving fairness and equal opportunity. There's a long road from the time I feel offended or I feel discriminated against to I am made whole through the legal process. So there's so much more work we can do right at the human level, right at the supervisory level or the team leader, listening and hearing and valuing the person's perception of fairness. And it's tough, it's hard work. It's easy to say just go back to work, just disregard it. I don't care how he's treating you, just go to work, get your job done. It's tough, there's a balance there of some people making complaints that are invalid, but yet they need to be validated through the supervisor. And so, yeah, the legal road, and I'll say EEOC, if you go to EEOC.gov site, 80% of sexual harassment cases in the military are unsubstantiated. It's really hard to prove that whether it's sexual harassment or gender discrimination that it actually was in a legal act. So that's this top, it's very, it's a great deterrent to just sucking it up and going on and putting it in your backpack and just saying, oh, well, that's the way it is. And so, yeah, changing the culture is a tough job. I want to mention for a briefly, you have a website, www.it'sallaboutego.com. Yes. Make sure that people see that and describes your activities and your program. And let's talk a little bit about that. It is outlined in the website. It's always nice to have that as a reference with the recording and on the show. Tell us about what services or what activities you do. I'm happy to see that website. Well, what I'm hoping through the diversity consulting business is what it is. And that is any organization or any team or company that recognizes that they're having challenges in diversifying their teams. Law enforcement, a lot of traditional construction occupations, they say, well, we want more women but they don't apply. And so a lot of times it really just takes conversations with the leadership there and the recruitment team to find out what are the strategies, what are the challenges and the barriers that you're having as to why you don't have more gender diversity in your teams and in your business. And they can be very subtle things. They can be challenging things but if we don't roll up our sleeves and take a look at it, then nothing changes. So that's what I'm hoping through workshops, through keynote presentations, through education. I could help leaders, I could help teams increase the representation of their gender diversity in their businesses. And yeah, and really just help build team synergy among men and women, the people of a business. Tell us about these facilitated discussions. How did they work? Give us an example of how that worked. Okay, well, Cheryl Sandberg who wrote the book, Lean In, she started this kind of way of having conversations around gender diversity. And I did that in the guard too where we would just have small groups of teams and really just talk about, and a lot of men who joined the circles were really surprised that I didn't realize by me saying that, that I was shutting you down. And so they were very, very helpful in just having open conversations about a lot of times when you're offended or you feel like you're ignored, you don't say anything, you just kind of deal with it. You might say it to your partner or a friend but you don't say it to the person who's actually offending you. So the facilitated discussions are a way of getting teams together to cross talk about the way that they treat each other. And then the things that are saying that are really turning people off but they're not really saying it. And they're underworking and under contributing when they don't feel safe. And so facilitated discussions are a way to bring teams together, have these conversations and improve the way that we interact with each other. Really helps a lot. And how is this followed up? Let's say you do have a presentation or a corporation or another body and you have a workshop, you have facilitated discussions and you yourself speak to them, you're often a speaker. How do you follow that up? Well, obviously the leadership team can follow it up through having an open forum with their team and asking how things are going but there's climate assessments that can be done through anonymous surveys and just going back and revisiting the group and getting feedback from the employers and saying things have been much better since we had the workshop or now that we have these monthly facilitated discussions. And in my experience in the guard for over a year we had monthly lean-in sessions and those who participated and had come to the lean-ins they all said that it improved, it improved their communication skills to go back to their work centers and really just speak up when they really felt there was some offensive term that was being used or they were being sidelined and they found strength and tools to use to actually say something versus just carry it. Yeah. How do you try to achieve a balance between someone who feels that they don't have the self-esteem enough to deal with this or that maybe they just get too much. In other words, a balance between always complaining or not complaining or just letting it go. How do you achieve that kind of balance? That seems difficult. Well, again, I think the leadership of an organization or a company creating that space where there is support around that. Oftentimes like an employee feels all alone with the problem. And again, you can take it to your partner or your friend outside of work but that doesn't really help you in the work center. So it's really leaders establishing that network of support to talk about discrimination, to talk about being offended, to talk about not being included. And so that's what facilitated this discussions are. Is they, the leadership says this is important that we carve out some time and we create a space to talk about what's impacting your ability to do a great job and feel good about coming to work. Because even change the story says that 70% of people who are sexually harassed change jobs. And so that's a great loss to employers. That's a great loss economically to a person to change a career and start over somewhere else. And so if we can solve the problem within the company, they don't have to leave, they're not impacted and the company's not impacted. So it really is carving out time to talk about the human barriers that are preventing people from feeling totally embraced and valued for what they bring to the team. So. We're getting towards the conclusion but I'd like to focus on your book. Tell us about that. Well, my book is called, right now, it's called, Life at Camp. And it really is sort of my story of my experience of joining the military 18 as a truck driver and a very male dominated type of occupation in the army. But then I joined the National Guard after active duty. And so it really, it takes the reader on a story of how I ended up as the state equal employment manager and really came to find that sexism was a real problem, not just for myself and for so many of the service members. And so it really, it's a call to action that the culture of the military needs to transition to a military that is not male dominated, that it is men and women who protect our democracy and we need the values of all people, all characteristics, feminine, masculine to have a great militia. And so I'm very excited about writing it. And I feel like it's not just talking about the problem but it's talking about a possible solution and how each individual can be part of the solution. So. That's great. What sounds very exciting. And what do you have on your agenda next after the book or is there any kind of seminar? Well, I'm gonna enjoy retirement and playing with my granddaughter but the book and just whenever I have an opportunity to serve to help teams, like I said, recognize the gender biases that impact our everyday, you know, the value of our teams. And so that's what I'm working on. I'm also working on a bill. It's called H401 with Jean O'Sullivan, Representative Jean O'Sullivan. And that is, we're working on getting that bill passed which would require the adjunct general of the Vermont Guard to work with the diversity manager on gender equality because we see the correlation between the representation of women and the number of sex-based offenses or discrimination cases. And so I would love to see the bill passed and fully utilized, embraced by the Guard, not only Vermont but the entire military really increase the representation of women in our command force structure. So I got a lot to do. Great. That's wonderful. Thank you for being with us. And this is Dennis McMahon for Positively Vermont. Our guest today has been Doris Sumner, the President of Empowering Gender Opportunities. Thank you for watching.