 And welcome to the Talks at Google. I'm Tina Lin, Country Manager of Taiwan and also Sili for Taiwan. Before we start today, a reminder that a recording of today's event will be made available externally on Talks at Google YouTube channel. So please do not discuss anything that is internal only information in the YouTube live chat. It's a real pleasure and honor for me to host today's virtual event. And we have a very special guest, Audrey Tong. Many of you probably already know that as Taiwan's digital minister, Audrey has been instrumental in Taiwan's effort against COVID-19. Since some of today's audience tune in from outside of Taiwan and may not be familiar with Audrey, so I would like to share a few things I learned about her impressive background. Audrey started learning how to program when she was eight. And by 12, she was coding in Perl, an all-purpose programming language. At 15, she started her own business. And by the age of 19, she already had worked in the Silicon Valley. She assumed office as Taiwan's digital minister in October 2016 and is the youngest ever cabinet member. Audrey is also the first transgender minister in Taiwan and in the world. So we will have time then probably we can come back to this point later. Audrey was tasked with helping government agency communicate policy and managing information published by the government. She is the founder and core member of Gap Zero. Gap Zero described itself as decentralized community that claims to use technology for the public good, allowing citizens easy access to vital information and power to shape civil society. So without further introduction, let's welcome Audrey to share Taiwan's digital effort and contribution in fighting of COVID-19. Welcome Audrey. Hello, hello everyone. Have a good local time everyone. And really happy to be here and to share whatever you would like me to say really. I wish that there's Dory in this talk, but there's just Audrey. Just Audrey, the organizer tells me that there will be no Dory for this live stream. But feel free to really chat however you want on the YouTube live stream. I'm having this pop-up window on the side. I'm looking at it all the time with my brainwave, I'm sure. And then like so the Dory question was actually from someone in front of the chat room. So before we begin, I believe Tina have a couple more questions to inquire to ask me before I launch into my presentation. Yeah, I think that's out of my also some of Google's curiosity is that you are quite famous about your brainwave. So for example, that every time when the netizen asks question on internet, even they didn't text you and even you will found it immediately and answer immediately. So how you think about it and how you can make it possible? Well, I was able to reply to each and every web forest mentioned about my name because I know this website called Google. And I use Google, both as the keyword alert. And I actually already have a tab in the browser that I use, which unfortunately is not Chrome, but Firefox by any way, in a tab that shows the new mentioning of my name and the keywords that I'm working on in the past one hour. So I check it like every half an hour. And if I can contribute, I just go in and comment. The only problem is that it doesn't index Facebook. And so I have another tab that shows the latest search keywords on Facebook. Because my Facebook feed is removed using a browser extension called Facebook feed eradicator. I don't get addicted to Facebook. Rather, I would just do this every half an hour search and again comment when I can make some contributions. So that's something. Bonchen said that his Chrome just crashed after hearing me mention Firefox. That's entirely unrelated. Cannot reproduce yet. Thanks for kind of clarify our kind of like a misbaster by Audrey herself. Yeah. So let's start for today's sharing. And I think everyone cannot wait to hear more from you about Taiwan's effort against COVID-19. OK, definitely glad to share. So can the organizer please project my screen from the stream yard? There should be a Lego showing. And the Lego block is a remix, actually, from Aaron Neonjens' New York Times advertisement. And so this is the main idea of how Taiwan successfully countered the COVID-19 based on the three pillars of digital social innovation. Many Taiwanese people here probably have already heard this slide. But in which case, I assure you this is really short. So just bear with me for another 10 minutes. So the three pillars, as I just mentioned, is about fast, fear, and fun. And the three pillar taken together improves democracy as more people participate. Digital democracy, of course, remains one of the best ways to improve participation as long as the focus is finding rough consensus and running code, not division, not anti-social media. And so the fast part. Whereas many jurisdictions began countering the coronavirus only this year. Taiwan started last year. Last December, when Dr. Lee Wenliang, the PRC whistleblower, posted locally that there are new SARS cases from Wuhan. He would get inquiries, eventually, punishments from his local police institution. But literally the same day, the Taiwan Equivalent of Reddit, the PTT board, has somebody with this nickname No More Pied reposting that whistleblowing. And our medical officers immediately notices our voted post. An issue at order that says all passengers flying from Wuhan to Taiwan need to start health inspection the very next day. And that's the first day of 2020. So this says to me two things. First, that a civil society trusts the government enough to talk about possible new SARS outbreaks in a public forum. And that the government trusts the citizens enough to take it very seriously and treat it as if SARS indeed happened again, something we've always been preparing as a nation since 2003. And because of this open civil society, according to the civics monitor, Taiwan is the most open society in the whole of Asia. And one of the only two in the completely open category in Asia Pacific along with New Zealand. And we enjoy the same freedom of speech, of assembly, of the press, and so on, as other liberal democracies. But with the emphasis on keeping an open mind to normal ideas from the society. And that's why we managed to counter coronavirus without a lockdown and also counter the infodemic without a takedown. One example, we have this toll-free line. 1-I-2-2, this is landline, toll-free number, very simple technology. But it's very powerful. Anyone who called this toll-free number not only gets their question answered almost immediately, more than 90% immediate pickup rate, but also their feedback can get into this daily central epidemic command center CEC daily press conference the very next day, which is always live streamed thanks to YouTube. And also, we also work with the journalist community to collaborate on new aspects of our counter coronavirus strategy. So one new idea, there was one day in April when a young boy, I think his family caught, saying that the boy doesn't want to go to school because the schoolmates may laugh at him for wearing a pink medical mask. Because when you ration mask, you don't get to pick the color. And it just so happened that all they get was pink. And the very next day, everybody in the CEC press conference started wearing pink medical mask, including Minister Chen Shizhong, our commander, who also said that his childhood hero is pink panther or something. And so they made sure that everybody learns about gender mainstreaming. People change their avatars on social media pink. And this is really a social innovation. It amplified the idea of mask that protects this good mask. Pink is the hip color. The boy become the most hip boy because only he had the pink medical mask and the hero as well. And so that kind of fast response really builds radical trust between the government and the civil society. Another focus is fairness. For example, when we ramp up the facial mask production from two million a day to 20 million a day, we need to make sure that everybody can get the medical mask equally. Otherwise, the physical vaccine wouldn't work. And so we utilize the national health insurance card, the NHI card, to collect mask from nearby pharmacies. Fairness is our guiding principle. And Gazeero, which Tina just briefly mentioned, played a really large part in what we call reverse procurement. In traditional procurement, the government determined what to do, what to develop. And the private sector implemented. Now, in reverse procurement, a Google developer group in Tainan that's a southern city in Taiwan determined what to do as a society. And Google supports it with Google map API access. And it demands. That national health insurance agency and HIA opens up the open API to power the mask availability map. Not only do we public the stock level of all the pharmacies, as you can see here, here in the Pescador Islands in Penghu, this particular pharmacy have 58 adult masks in store and 196 children's masks in store. Nowadays, if you go to there, you can collect nine per two weeks per adult or 10 if you are a child. And so we publish this every 30 seconds, making sure that Gazeero, that's a civic hacker initiative and all the community contributors altogether they built more than 140 tools that enable people to prefer viewing maps or voice assistance or chatbots, whatever. And they can all see which pharmacies near them still have medical masks. And that makes sure that more than 99.99% of citizen residents can remain calm and collected because we radically trust the citizens with open data. People queuing before and after me can make sure that when I do get nine medical masks, this number actually decreased by nine. If this number rather increases, they will call 1922 right there. And so people who show any symptoms will then be able to take the mask, go to a local clinic, knowing that they will get treated fairly without incurring any financial burden. This also enable people to make dashboards that let everybody see our supply is indeed growing 10-fold in actuality over two months only to 20 million a day. And that's where in Taiwan, up to each precinct, like where do we have an oversupply or undersupply based on the real-time feedback by the pharmacist. So we adjust in a weekly iteration our supply and demand curves and strategies that is co-created with the whole of society. So one of the independent analysts said that, OK, there's a lot of people in the Xinzhou Science Park, I'm sure, or in the Taipei City or New Taipei City, who systemically did not have access to masks. Because when they get off work, all the pharmacies have already closed. And so because of that and that they don't live with families who can go to the pharmacies for them, they missed the mask collection times. And that comprises to around 20% of population. And so that's why we started also working with the convenience stores. You can see our premier, Su Juncheng, smiling very happily here. That is because we started working with convenience stores almost after we rolled out this pharmacy distribution so that everyone can take the same NHI card and collect your mask any time 24 hours a day. And so we ensure fairness of all kinds. And finally, I would like to stress, but because this is a stressful time, people feel anxious. And there's a lot of panic buying and conspiracy theories that's called the infodemic. In Taiwan, our counter disinformation strategy that we have rolled out before the pandemic already is based on the idea of humor over rumor. Humor over rumor, very simply put, is that whenever there's a panic buying, anything that travels on outrage, we would, after at most two hours, push an internet meme that is very funny, hilariously funny. And when the fun has a higher Arnold value, a higher basics transmission rate than outrage, then people who have laughed about something will not be able to feel outrage. And then people can start talking about the actual facts. For example, when there was a panic buying of tissue papers, there was a rumor that says, quote, oh, it's the same material as medical mask. So the ramping of medical mass production will reduce the supply of tissue papers, end quote. That's not true, by the way. But people did believe that for a while. And so after only a couple of hours, the same premiere you just saw smiling in the previous slide now shows his backside, actually his bottom, wiggling it a little bit, and say in very large print that each of us only have one pair of buttocks. And it's a word play because it's a homonym, buttocks, toilet, in Mandarin sounds the same as stockpiling, so toilet. And so basically this internet meme package like a tissue paper box says that we don't need to panic buy. And it has to payload the actual clarification, the fact check that says tissue paper came out from South American materials. Medical mask came from domestic materials. These are completely different things. And so ramping up production of one do not hurt the other. And anyone who spread this kind of intentional disinformation that hurt the citizens, there are actually the penalty for it. It's beyond the freedom of speech when you intentionally hurt the public. In fact, I think we persecuted like three people and they were tissue paper resellers and there were the origin behind that original panic buying disinformation. But in any case, the idea is that when this goes viral, the conspiracy theory stops going viral. So in just a couple of days, the panic buying is put to the stop. And this is not just a one shot thing. In each of our ministries, there is a participation officer. Just like parliamentary officers that talk to MPs and media officers that talk to the journalists, the participation officers talk to hashtags. And Gao Zhiheng just asked, why is there a politician in every poster? So you will be happy to find that here there is no politician, just this very cute dog, the spokes dog Song Chai of the Ministry of Health and Welfare. You see the hashtag officer of the Ministry of Health and Welfare lives with this dog. So whenever people see something from the CECC press conference, if they had a hard time spreading it, we help by making it a internet meme. So when we introduce, for example, physical distancing, the meme says, when you are outdoor, you have to keep two Zhong Chai away from each other. And when you're indoor, keep three Shiba Inu away from each other. And also, thanks Chris for correcting my English. Prosecuted, not prosecuted, thank you. And so the Zhong Chai says, remember to cover your mouth and nose when sneezing. And also remember to pre-order your masks online. The Zhong Chai asked you very in a very cute fashion, but why do you need medical mask? Well, you put on a medical mask to protect you from your own unwashed hands. And this is very important. This is the meme that really travels because this appeals to people's self-protection instincts and the dog is very, very cute. And this is how we make sure that Taiwanese people still feel calm and collected, even during the pandemic. So I only have these few slides to begin with. I don't have any more slides, but if you want to check more of the Taiwan model, you can find it at TaiwanCanHelp.us. And yes, this is the same speed that I speak Taiwanese Mandarin. So is Tina going to be back or do I just start engaging with the YouTube? I'm picking up the question from the live chat. So is there any specific question you want to answer first? Definitely. So there's a interesting question about whether I, like, they really want me to run for president. And so I'll just get it out of the way. So I'm nonpartisan and the work that I do, which is the same as internet governance, is based on the idea of building common values out of different positions and delivering innovation to fulfill those values. And so I take all the sides. And that means that I cannot belong to any party. So I do support a particular party and they're all YouTubers and it's called the Can't Stop This Party, or literally the Very Happy Party, but I'm not a party member either. And so my work is just to bring fun and into joy really, into policymaking for everybody involved. And nowadays in Taiwan, it's very difficult to consider anyone running for presidential candidacy without any party affiliation. So I'll not run for president. Also, it's unconstitutional. The Taiwan Constitution rather officially, the Transcultural Republic of Citizens Constitution stipulates that a president need to be 40 years old and I'm only in my 30s. But you are going to over 40 for the next election. Yeah, that's right, that's right. But I don't know, I don't see how as a postpartisan and a nonpartisan really, how that would be possible on a presidential ticket. So no, I'm just going to be the lower case digital minister. Okay, thank you. So what's the next one to answer? Hi, so Phong Lam asked, is Taiwan going to build an app using our exposure notification API? The short answer is not yet. We have not built any contact tracing apps. There's a saying, anything that we're born with is human nature. Anything that's invented after we're born is technology. And so to paraphrase, anything that the government does before the pandemic is considered fair play. Anything that the government introduced after the pandemic is treated with suspicion. That is the same in all the democratic countries. And so that's why in Taiwan, for example, when people already get into the habit of receiving SMS message, when they are in an area that's going to be impacted by earthquake. For example, I'm just going to show you my phone here. And that's the Guo Jiaji thing about the national warning. Quake alert, beware of probable shaking CWB. Okay, so that's because I'm in the area that's probably going to be affected by earthquake. And so this SMS come to me via sale broadcast. I think five seconds or 10, maybe seven seconds before the actual earthquake is felt by me, which is really good. And so people already get into the habit of receiving such SMS. So when we build the digital quarantine system, the digital fence, when people choose to stay in their home instead of the quarantine hotel for 14 days for quarantine, their phone is put into this digital fence system so that when they break out of the 50 or so meter radius based on cell phone triangulation, the SMS is sent to not only them, but also their local police. And so people would get paid $33 a day as stipend for working with the quarantine. But if they break out as discovered by the digital fence, they will pay us back a thousand times that they can fund a thousand more people in quarantine. And so people don't break the quarantine. And people accept that in Taiwan because they already have experience with the triangulation system based on cell phone tower signal strength on flood warning and earthquake warning. But if we introduce GPS or app-based like Bluetooth or whatever-based notification API that was not around before the pandemic, then the legitimacy will be much, much lower. And that is why we rely only on technology and repurposing it's technology that was around before the pandemic. I hope that answered the question. And Jamie Zheng asked, why don't you use smartphone? So do you have something against KaiOS? Because this is a smartphone. This is VOLTE says 4G right here. So, and it runs snakes, I'm sure. But it also runs YouTube and the top YouTube that's shown here is Google Pixel 4a. How about that? So it is a smartphone. It's a smartphone. Yeah. It is a smartphone if it runs YouTube. And then it also is, of course, a flip phone. I like that phone factor very much. And also, most notably, it doesn't have a touchscreen. So I don't get addicted to my phone. I buy this phone because it does not have a touchscreen, but it is open source, runs KaiOS, which is the same as the Firefox Gecko code base. And then it's really good. And that's my personal phone. So I don't get addicted to it. All right. And what else? Yeah. What similar questions like from the opinion why the phone is not Pixel? I mean, if you are going to make a Pixel phone that doesn't have a touchscreen, I will take it. But that's your choice, not mine. One infomercial that would just launch our new Pixel 4a today. Yes, but it doesn't have a touchscreen. I know it doesn't come in a touchscreen-free version. I mean, I do have a touchscreen, me and me, and this is this iPad. But I treat the touchscreen as a non-touchscreen. I always interact with it only using this Apple Pencil. So if you decide to introduce something with the stylus, I can also reconsider. But if it's touchscreen only, I really cannot use it because I'll get addicted to it. And that's not good for anyone's mental health, not just mine. All right. So what else? Julia Filio would like to know what's my view of 5G adoption in Taiwan? That's a great question. The 5G adoption in Taiwan is pretty good. We already have a clean pass, which by the way we already had in 4G, which is end-to-end without PRC-made components. And that's not because we're against any particular vendor. Rather that is just a realization when we occupied the parliament in 2014 that there is no real private sector company in the PRC. And if they want, the party can always make anything de facto that they control over one of their party branches. I mean, that's what they also say. So it's very overt, not covert at all. And so we have a clean pass and we already deployed 5G and we got a lot of money from our 5G spectrum option. And because in Taiwan, if you swipe your national health insurance card, that's you're in the socialist system. But if you swipe your credit card, you're in the capitalist system. So we have both wings in our society. And the socialist system, which is broadly speaking education and health. We'll use the 5G auction money on the most rural, the most remote places, the Digital Opportunity Centers, the indigenous nations, the remote islands. We already have broadband as a human right. Anywhere in Taiwan, even the top of Taiwan, Sabia, the Yushan Jade Mountain, almost 4,000 meters high, you have 10 megabits per second at just $16 per month, unlimited data connections both ways. Otherwise, it's my fault, personally. But that doesn't translate to usage, of course. So we're going to make a lot of sandbox vertical experiments that will test the 5G on making sure that, for example, the telehealth, telemedicine, diagnostics, even surgery on ambulance cars and so on, gets the funding that they need to develop. And that will also test the millimeter wave part of the 5G spectrum. And that will take place first. So the slogan is, the more remote you are, the more advanced you are. And that's our 5G strategy, which is part of our DG plus strategy, the IGI, which stands for digitalization, innovation, governance, and inclusion, respectively. So what else? Kevin Fu asked what motivates me to get up every morning. Really good question. So there's a fact that I do most of my work in my sleep. So nowadays, like this is daytime, right? So I'm just having fun. I'm optimizing my work for fun. I listen to all the sides. I read the people's ideas, position papers, whatever, but do not pass judgment. I do not make decisions or interpretations during the day. I'm just having fun. And then before I go to sleep, I would flip through the materials that really need a common value out of those very different positions and come to a common value. So I would do that without sounding the sounds in my mind. And then I would just go to sleep and with no alarm clock. And usually after seven and a half or eight hours, I will wake up with a solution, with a common value that can take care of all the sides. And that motivates me to get up in the morning. But if it's very difficult, like if there's like seven different stakeholder groups, there were like long history of distrusting each other and so on, I will work longer. So I will work nine hours. That's to say sleep one hour more. And then wake up only when there is a common value in my head. So maybe you can try it out yourself. What else? Yeah, I think the question one is, can you share your thought about how to balance between privacy protection and preventing prevention measures? Yeah. Right. Actually you can enhance privacy protection during the pandemic prevention. I'm sure that those of you who work on the notification API, which has had a lot of review and feedback on this version one, so that on version two, it improves on its privacy preserving capabilities, understand that during the pandemic, there's a lot of people who are very passionate to review your code and your processes so that they become more privacy enhancing and previously expensive or hard to understand or just obscure technologies such as, I don't know, fully homomorphic encryption, differential privacy, split learning, and so on are having a few days because people really care about privacy and then there's large amount of people really looking into the available research and that provides the capability for privacy enhancing technologies to prove to people that it's actually conserving their privacy. Case in point, we had a hackathon called co-hack, C-O-H-A-C-K, that T-W with a lot of other jurisdictions teams and one of the five winners, each winner will receive a Da-Tung-Dian-Guo-A-Rest-Cooker and anyway, which is a symbol of open innovation in Taiwan because it can be repurposed to disinfect medical masks, by the grace. The idea is that people would use this log board, which is a app on Google Play and to record their symptoms, their whereabouts and so on, but it works entirely in airplane mode only so that it will not transmit anything, like Bluetooth or NFC or Wi-Fi or 5G, 4G, whatever, Morse code, AVN carriers to any other device. So it's entirely to yourself, like your personal diary. And the only time you share it is if a medical officer come to you to do an interview on contact tracing and there was one click, you can generate this one-time use URL that contains only the kind of information that medical officers truly need because the app is co-creative with medical officers without divulging the privacy details of friends and families as you probably would do in a traditional interview. So this is a log board that actually protects, enhances people's privacy and only when the apps feel that they are personal, like in the sense that it serves a fiduciary duty. It's value aligned to you, it's accountable only to you, it serves only your primary interest. As I said, the mask serves your interest because it protects you from your own unwashed hands. When the incentive is designed this way, then people come to gradually trust the privacy enhancing technologies. And so I think the pandemic is a great opportunity for us to work in the PEDs to show our value to the society at large. So Laura, who network just got crushed? Wonder is because of the mystery power. Again, this is entirely, I think, incidental. I do not have any Wi-Fi breaking powers. So Tina, do you have any favorite question that you would like me to highlight? I think there's a few people asked about the privacy concern and also security associated with the EID, so. Yeah, let's do the EID one. I love that question. So as you know, we're already having the citizens digital certificate in which you can make a electronic signature using traditional PKI infrastructure. We also have a paper-based ID which is currently suffering from a problem that it was designed almost 15 years ago now and the expiry date of the counter-fating fighting technology that's paper, a special kind of paper, is becoming out of date. So it's becoming more and more easy to forge our citizen certificate. And so the household department in the Ministry of Interior came up with this great idea. What if when we're renewing our electronic ID, the CDC part, the digital part, and we're also renewing, of course, our paper-based ID, why don't we offer people the choice so that they can glue the two cards together? Well, literally having a citizen certificate that also doubles as a electronic signature certificate. Now, based on polls, I think around 30% of people think it's a good idea. The other 30% of people said that they prefer, thank you very much, but to keep two cards. That is to say one for electronic signature and one for like day-to-day ID, photo ID. They don't like their digital certificate to have a photo on it. And another 40% of people never used a digital certificate anyway, they just needed photo ID. The good news is for the EID, when you are getting the EID next year, we are starting with opt-in only beta in Penghu and in Xinzhu. When you're opting in, well, you have the choice. You can choose one of the three. You can bake the EID into your photo ID. You can get an EID alongside your photo ID, or you can just get a photo ID with no PKI at all in it. Now, even with no PKI, the photo ID also contains the NFC interface so that it can more easily, in addition to reading the optical characters, which is sometimes difficult to recognize. If you have a difficult to recognize name, it will defeat even the best OCR because it's not in the dictionary. But anyway, you can nevertheless record that in the NFC chip. But then people, of course, worry about the NFC being accidentally read and so on, which is why just like the credit card, we use the backside, like the CVV2 numbers. So it's a random number, a serial number of each ID. And so when you renew the ID or if you get a new ID or if you just decide to change the number, you can just change the number just as you would for the credit card. And only with that number can people read through NFC your name and your, I think, national ID number. And that's it. And so what's used to be displayed on the traditional ID, including your household address, the name of both your parents or whatever, these are gone. These are not printed anymore. And they cannot be read through the NFC interface. And so that's it. I think people can try it out more during the public beta. We also have a bug bounty program for Whitehead cybersecurity hackers. So feel free to hack the ID while it's being rolled out, I think early next year for six months, for purely opt-in beta. And based on the beta feedback, we may also just adjust the form factor and so on. So that's it. Phonlem asks, is this powered by a secure element on the movie devices? By movie devices, I'm sure that you mean, oh, that's right. Content protection. Very important. Yes, the movie playing mobile devices. Yeah, of course, we have T-FIDO, which is a FIDO compliant counterpart to the Citizen Digital Certificates. It currently only do authentication, not the full authorization yet. But the plan is, yes, to couple it with secure elements so that you don't have to bring the physical card with you all the time. You can choose to transfer your phone instead. So that's it. What else? A lot of people need to answer something about TikTok. Yeah, TikTok and also misinformation. So you can answer on TikTok first. Yeah, maybe let's do TikTok. So the question is that Trump banned TikTok in the US, unless it's, I'm sure, Microsoft TikTok, in which case I think they're still under negotiation. So yeah, in Taiwan, when we talk about a clean path, we really mean throughout the stack. And so not only PRC companies, but companies that we believe are de facto controlled by PRC, at least in our public sector, as well as our critical infrastructure areas, which, by the way, includes science parks, including the Taiwan Semiconductor Company. They're a dear bond. It's just as simple as that. We cannot download and install as public servant software that is deemed by de facto PRC control entities. And that is also why I rely on browser security to connect in a unconnected to intranet device, some sort of video conferencing software, and so on. So yeah, I think this is very important that we keep this clean path idea across the stack. And in fact, we've been advocating it for six years. When we occupied the parliament, the consensus on the street was exactly that. And then it convinced the National Communication Commission, the National Security Council in Taiwan about that. So I think it's about time that other countries join our idea. We try to get out of the PRC control component already in 4G deployment, and very successfully, actually. So when we did 5G, there is no path dependency. And so, yeah, the misinformation campaigns. Have you seen the misinformation campaigns using your own humorous style to reduce confidence in the process? It's not about confidence. It's about making sure the social media is pro-social rather than anti-social. That is to say, if you have seen the movie, Inside Out, we make sure that people have a larger room, larger control room in their mind instead of this knee-jerk reaction with just a few seconds' attention and only one emotion can dominate the control room and the memory crystal balls will be colored red and that's anger and outrage. I mean, I have nothing against outrage. It's great to highlight a potential social problem, but you really need a crystal ball that is kind of hybrid color that bridges the anger into joy that can create a new way out of the existing mechanisms that can prevent any injustice from happening again. That is some proper channeling of rage, of social outrage into co-creation. On the other hand, if it becomes channeled into hate, that's another Inside Out character. And that will, of course, go to the toxic way of anti-social social media where people would go on an expedition, shu-jeum in Taiwanese Mandarin, that is to say, to attack someone personally or to denounce something as a lower social status. And that's not constructive because it doesn't actually solve the social problem. So humor over rumor is not about state propaganda. It's not about you having to trust the dog. The dog may, you know, the science facts that a dog offers may change because after all, it starts 2.0, it's not starts 1.0. So like many of the early starts 1.0 information that we shared, it's not entirely correct once we learn about the asymptomatic people with COVID-19, the NCOV, the N stands for novel, right? And so that may change. Science debates may happen, of course, but people do so with this outrage-turned co-creative joy rather than outrage-turned into hatred and expeditions. And that's the reason why humor over rumor is useful. This is not a state propaganda device. What else? So- What's your vision for Taiwan over the next five years? So many people this year. Yeah, I know, I know. Literally the most frequently asked question. And so the answer is actually pinned on my Twitter. But anyway, but that's Twitter, right? So, and we're in YouTube, so might as well repeat that. Would you like to bring the slides? Thank you. So for the next 10 years, not just five years, our focus is going to be on the global goals. Does this sustainable development goals? Using digital technology to make sure that the people working on economy, society, and the environment can become accountable to each other. And in concrete terms, my role as digital minister is to make sure that every sector have reliable data, 17, 18, that each and every sector and also internationally that we have effective partnerships toward those common goals, 17, 17. And then that we work on the principle of innovation. When we figure out something in Taiwan, the Taiwan model, we always say many Taiwan is not just a product, but also the process. When we say Taiwan can help, maybe in Taiwan, it makes, for example, not only the medical mask that we donate across the world, but also the blueprint of how we make those medical masks. Like you can get the blueprint of a essentially automated robotic factory that's produced two million of these per day with some extra material for personal protection materials. But for the society at large, what will be the effect of these three sustainable developmental targets? I would say that we will think of digital as very different from the traditional linear growth that was the age of information and communication technology as technologies only. Rather, we will look at it as a opportunity to create a new kind of society that is more plural. And so my job description literally is this poem that I will recite now. It goes like this. When we see the internet of things, let's make it the internet of beings. When we see virtual reality, let's make it a shared reality. When we see machine learning, let's make it collaborative learning. And when we see user experience, let's make it about human experience. And whenever we hear that a singularity is near, that is always remember the plurality is here. So that's my vision. Thank you, Audrey. And let's see. There's one question to ask about, still go back to COVID-19. So do you think such a level of civil engagement can be replicated in the other country or region in APEC? To what is the civil engagement is driven by the personal relationship or actually is a systematic factor? Well, I mean, toll-free numbers, daily television broadcasts. I'm sure that almost all wantries have the facilities to make that happen. So this is not about the level of technology. Rather, this is about how much you trust your own citizens. And when people trust their citizens, then as co-creators, then this systemic fast iteration feedback can happen more naturally. And for example, in South Korea, they did not use to ration the mask. In fact, there was very little visibility into the availability of medical masks in their pharmacies and distribution channels. And their civic technologists would then look at our medical mask map from Thailand, Google to develop a group and convince their government to start publishing using OpenAPI. Well, not quite OpenAPI, Swacker. The previous version of OpenAPI, the API that we need to visualize the medical mask availability. And so this is what I call reverse procurement. The civil society have a strong mandate either looking at the Thailand model or inventing it by their own. For example, in Japan, we encode for Japan, work with the Tokyo Metropolitan government on the stop COVID dashboard. We also help translating them and so on. And the government can say, okay, we will bless this with the government domain as we did. Or they can say, no, you keep a distance and we will only publish things on our own accord on our own tempo and therefore losing a chance of co-creation. So it's all, I think, in the culture of the decision-making. It is a systemic factor. I do not think it is about any particular personal leadership but rather about the system of the hashtag officers, for example, reverse mentorship, reverse procurement. Nothing in it is illegal in any countries that you mentioned because in Taiwan, we never declare an emergency situation. Everything that I just mentioned operate entirely within the constitutional limit. So anyone can look at Thailand can help that us and adopt some of those ideas in the Taiwan model. There's nothing preventing the government from doing so other than maybe their distrust to their own citizens. Thank you. I think that's another question related to, so curious about your thought on creating a long lasting pipeline to motivate hacker to take, leave and serve in the government sector. So... Yeah, I mentioned briefly reverse mentorship. And this is, I think, a really good idea. I myself was a reverse mentor to minister Jacqueline Tsai, previously of IBM Asia, who served as the minister actually in this very office. And so I was in this office as kind of an intern, a reverse mentor. The idea of reverse mentorship is that each minister can hire one or two people who are under 35 years old, who are social innovators with a brilliant new idea, a new direction for the country to go. But doesn't have maybe the resources, the national resources to do so. And so the reverse mentor will point the new direction while the minister realizes how it can be imbued into the national system of operational knowledge. And so both sides learned. And that's the reverse mentorship. I learned a lot during the year and a half that I served as a reverse mentor to minister Jacqueline Tsai. Of course, nowadays I'm over 35 years old. So I have my own reverse mentors, but we really scaled it up. So not only do we have 35 people in our national advisory council of the youth, more than 25 of them are under 35. And the other interns in my office, I think currently we're working with almost 30 people who are under 25 actually, around 25. And they look systemically at each and every digital service that the government does and they don't like and fork the government, important pronunciation fork the government. And meaning that they make prototypes, they make like high fidelity prototypes and mock-ups to show the people a alternate vision. For example, our national hiking portal, hike.taiwan.gov.tw was initially an intern project. And when they do that, because we have in our procurement law that any existing system integrator and vendor, if they deliver a website, an interactive experience, they have also to deliver it as a open API. If they don't, they could be disqualified. We piggyback on the clause that says, if you make something for people with sight, you cannot exclude people with blindness. So similarly, if you make it something with human beings in mind, you cannot exclude robots. Otherwise you discriminate and you could be disqualified. We don't say discriminate against robots, but that's what we have in our procurement contract template. So the intern's vision can always be met with an open API by the underlying services. So when you hike in Taiwan, originally you have to file four different applications to four different agencies, but now the intern just make a simple portal and that would take care of those APIs, both read and write, so that you can interact with only one portal. And you can also fork that and make it into an interactive experience and so on. And the beauty of it is that all this front end work does not remove the back end work. So for people who are mountaineers for a very long time, who are already well versed in navigating those old websites, those are still in place. We have no plan to dismantle them, but that enables the young people with new direction of the official service to reimagine things however they want. So systemically we redo like a dozen or so digital services every year based on this internship and each ministry can also replicate it and also each municipality. Thanks for your sharing. I think that's also another one before the talk. I just share with you that in Google culture, we really encourage diversity, equity, and also inclusion as an environment that we want everyone have the opportunity to grow and succeed. So as you see that, for example, in the Taiwan society, how do you think we can take a part to encourage this type of diversity, equity, and inclusive culture in Taiwan as well? Yeah, I think one of the great thing in Taiwan is that we have more than 20 national languages and most of them indigenous. And I myself benefited greatly when I dropped out of junior high school living in the Atayal mountains near Ulai. And it educates me about sustainability. They don't need the development targets, right? That's they've been around for many, many centuries. And so all the different indigenous cultures offer a different insight. Of course, also new immigrant cultures like the Taiwan culture which is neither in matriarchy or patriarchy. The gender simply doesn't matter when choosing the leader. And I think our president, Dr. Tsai Ing-Wen, is part by one and also Amit, which is a matriarchy and so on and so forth. And so I would encourage people just to do some migration to immigrate, but it's always just two hours drive anyway. And to live a extended time in a different culture and learn another national language there are after all more than 20 to learn from. And then you can look at our culture in a very different way. I used to suggest people to also go abroad, but nowadays it's not very valid except through virtual reality, I'm sure. But no, that's okay. We have more than 20 coaches and you can take half a year or something to live and just embed yourself in that particular culture. Yeah. I also saw that you are in a talk and then the people ask you about what's the meaning of life. And also, then I also saw this one question about how you deal with stress. So I think particularly in the internet world that everything is so fast-pacing. So how will you give any tips for all of Google about how you deal with that? Yeah, the meaning of life of course is 42. Everybody knows about it. Okay, so I'm sure you'll know about it. Anyway, so how do I deal with stress? Well, after all, during daytime, I'm just having fun. And so whenever I see something that makes me stressful, I will just play some synthetic music, computer generated, and that associates this stressful visual stimuli with a relaxing auditory stimuli. Or if I hear something stressful, then maybe I'll just make some tea, throwing two random tea bags into the same drink and therefore creating a new pleasant flavor to associate with this stressful auditory stimuli. And if I smell something unpleasant, then I don't know, maybe I'll just go and check out the painting or something. So anyway, the point here is that if you have in your mind sufficient capacity to invite the stimuli in without over identifying with that, which by the way, it's very difficult to do with a touch screen, which is why I stay away from touch screens. Then you can always balance it with other stimuli and then just synthesize that in your sleep. And if you sleep well that night, you will wake up re-associating that particular unpleasant stimuli with the long-term memory of that pleasant stimuli. And then the crystal ball in your mind will be colored again yellow. I think that's a really, really cool perspective. Another one is also about, because Google culture, we also encourage the diversity. So sometime then we will have colleagues that have a different perspective and also opinions. And I know you in your environment and definitely you will also need to deal with a lot of different type of diverse perspective. So how do you think that, how we can build up a constructive confrontation culture and how you deal with the people have a different opinion? Mm-hmm, yeah. And it is a very, very short and simple answer. It's simply take all the sides. And that's just forwards. Take all the sides. If people build into the culture, the capacity to empathize and take all the sides. Like speaking personally, because I'm born with a naturally low testosterone level, I went through the male puberty in my teens and the female puberty in my twins in early twenties. And so I don't have in my mind this feeling that half of the people is different from me. To me, it's very easy to take all the sides. I started as a left-handed writer, but then I also learned to write with my right hand. So I guess I can type faster and so on. And so again, it's just take all the sides. And if you think about Taiwan, really, Taiwan caught between the Eurasian plate on one side and the Philippine Sea plate on the other. There's endless earthquake and the earthquake warnings that's broadcasted by cell phone broadcast. And that's taught us not only to make our buildings resilient, but also our ideas resilient. When you can take both sides and you can survive the earthquake, the tension. That means that the Jade Mountain, the tip of Taiwan grows every year by two and a half centimeters. That's a geological fact. It's not a metaphor. And so that's what enabled the Taiwanese politics instead of being caught by the left wing or the right wing to grow skyward and take the up wing, if you will. That's really cool. And I think that's another one which I also want to ask on behalf of Googler is because in our office, and we also have a lot of foreigner Googler, they work in Taiwan. So how do you think that the Taiwan government can better help for the oldest foreign that has a better environment in Taiwan? Yeah, of course. You can check out Taiwan Gold Card. It's a system that we hand out just those gold cards, which are like three year, up to three year, work permits, life permits. You can get your family here. You can get a national health insurance and therefore medical mask rationed and very easily after half a year. And you can check out the community at TaiwanGoCard.com, which by the way is not made by our foreign service or indeed any part of Taiwan. It's made by Steve from YouTube, actually. I think our first GoCard holder. And the other link that I share with you, TaiwanCanHelp.us is also not made by the government. It's made by a bunch of YouTubers. And so yeah, YouTube founder and YouTubers. And you can learn about how the GoCard works, which is essentially if you're a digital nomad, you can just live in Taiwan and doesn't have to get any certificate from any employer or anything like that. We just want you to hang out with us. And after you stay here for a while, if you decide you like here, actually you can convert a visitor visa into a GoCard while you're having a tourism visit to Taiwan. Many people did actually during the pandemic. And if you decide after a few years that you really like Taiwan, you can get a citizenship without renouncing your original one. You can be also Taiwanese. My old professor, Tim Lien, when I was studying in the NCCU without getting a degree, he used to have this weekly office hour with me, recently decided to be a Taiwanese citizen just based on this foreign talent act. And so feel free to be also Taiwanese and enjoy our national health care. Okay, the last question is, some of Google asked you, were you considered to open a YouTube channel by yourself because they just enjoyed today's dialogue so much and they want to subscribe your channel and also learn more from you. Of course, yeah. We have a YouTube channel, the public digital innovation space and it's actually part of my work condition. Like any journalist, any lobbyist, anyone that visits me must agree either to publish the transcript to the Say It platform that I maintain or to publish the entire recording to the YouTube channel. So feel free to check out my daily work, day-to-day work and you can also be a digital minister because in Taiwan, digital shuwei is the plural minister. So there's more than one way to do it. Thank you and live long and prosper. Yeah, and thanks for today you're sharing and I also want to, on behalf of the Google to say a big thank you for your precious time to engage with us and also a lot of Google reach out to me and also ask me want to deliver their own gift to you. So I will collect all and then package it and deliver to you and to say our big thank you. Okay, thank you so much. And live long again and prosper. Thank you. Bye. Thank you. Thanks for all your tuning today. Bye. Bye.