 We're back, we're back, we're following the world. Some say the world is declining. America, please find a way. I'm Jay Fidel, this is St. Dick. The handsome young man is Tim Apichella. The second handsome young man is Winston Welch. Hi guys. Good morning. Oh-ha. So today, today, let's talk about, you know, decision process in the country. And I titled the show that chaos came long before the blame here in America finding its way. Because in fact, you could say that what's happened in the past, what is it, week or two, in Joe Biden's handling of the Afghanistan withdrawal, not so much the moral question of leaving or the strategical question of leaving, but it's the implementation that he's getting a lot of criticism for more than anything else in it. So, you know, the question is, you know, how can you make decisions? The buck stops here. We can't deny that. But how can you make decisions in the, what do you want to call it, political environment, the governmental environment here in 2021 in the United States? Which in many ways is a declining country. Nobody can argue that. And so, you know, we don't tell the truth to each other. We have divisiveness, we have a complete dysfunction in Congress, nobody trusts the courts, I could go on. And the result, of course, is that none of Joe Biden's significant initiatives have been able to get out of Congress. And he can't do all that much on proclamations. And here we are on, you know, a major decision and a major implementation. And you can see, you know, how hamstrung he is. Because he can't count on other elements of government in order to back him up, help him, fund him, and so forth. So I want to know your thoughts about that, Tim. You know, okay, let's say that this was a flawed implementation. It seems like an A, is it his flaw? Then B, can we forgive him for that? Yes, we can forgive him for it because every president makes mistakes in their administration. What's important is that the president owns up to the mistake. Which one hand he did by saying the buck stops with me. I'm president of the United States. And so he took a very Truman-esque position on that. But at the same time, he was pointing fingers of the Afghan army falling apart. The president of Afghanistan fleeing the country and the resolve of the Afghan army fell apart like nobody's business. So, but he didn't back down and he shouldn't have back down for the rationale why the United States is leaving after 20 years Afghanistan. All good reasons. Again, it's not why we're leaving, it's how we're leaving. And I think he has a chance to rectify that. He has a chance to prove himself that he's not gonna leave our allies behind. And that's a good thing. So the president, as he said in the speech that he'll take the criticism, he'll take the slings and arrows that are directed his way. And he should take them because this thing was a route and he can fix it and he's gonna fix it, I hope. I'm worried about the Afghanis that are in outer provinces that can't make their way into the Kabul airport. And that's a concern because General Milley yesterday, something, something was very disturbing to me. He said, we're gonna try our best to get everyone out. Well, I know what that means in government speak and that is we'll do what we can and that we don't, we don't. That's not a good answer. The good answer is we made a commitment to our allies and we by gosh should keep it. And if that means we have to go out and I think that's part of a question that's come through here, go out through the gauntlet of Taliban checkpoints, then let's do it. And I don't think the Taliban is gonna be shooting upon US forces because that's only gonna lead to worse things and that's called United States Air Force. Anyway, that's kind of my thoughts. Okay, well Winston, what about you? I mean, if you have the authority, if you are the leader, but you don't have the followers that you'd like to have. You don't have Congress to back you up. You're not so sure of your agencies. They haven't even cleaned house. It's a DOJ yet. What kind of leadership position is this? It's not like everybody in the country is rooting for him. A good number of people in the country and government are vociferously criticizing him no matter what, trying to stop him and undo any possibility of a democratic win in 2022 and 2024. It's like, we're divided, man. And so the question is, can you, doesn't that affect his leadership? Doesn't that affect, for example, his leadership in military matters? Remember, the military has had some issues here. The military, well, they've had some issues about January 6th also. So how good is the military? How good is the country in backing him up and giving him the kind of support? Maybe it's just me, but if I were president, these things would trouble me greatly. What do you think, Winston? Let's say that again, if you were president, what? These things would trouble me greatly. I would want the country on my side. Of course you would. And we should stand behind our president. This is a decent, honorable man who inherited a situation negotiated by his predecessor that he was supposed to have been out by May 1st. The writing was on the wall. Has this implementation been flawed? Yes, deeply. Were there better ways that they could have done it? Yes, probably. And everything's easier in 2020 hindsight. But as far as what Tim said about General Miley, remember what Yoda said about try? Yoda said, there is no try, only do. And... I wanna meet Yoda one of these days. Hey, Luke Skywalker took that to heart and look how far he went. But unfortunately, Joe Biden is Luke Skywalker and he's facing a lot of Darth Vader's out there and Sith Lords and the whole bad group of them. And people rooting against the president? What's with that? That's terrible. We should be focusing our efforts on achieving an organized withdrawal as best as we can. Recovering our allies as best as we can. Letting the Taliban know that they are going to be held accountable. Now that they're running the country, this is their show. It's a very different thing being in surgeon operation to running the country. And that article from the spokesman of the Taliban, if we held him out his word, which obviously we're not going to, they are shooting people in the street, butting people in the heads with guns and ruling by terror. And that's gonna happen. That's just the way that it is. There's a lot of, like you said yesterday, a lot of bad spots around the world. America does the best it can given its resources. Is it, are there other competitors out in the field now? Is China stepping up? Is Russia, yes they are. But it doesn't mean that we have to step down. It means we have to recommit. And I think that commitment starts at home. And Joe Biden said, I presided over, I'm not presiding over passing this baton of a war that has gone through four different presidents. He said, it's ending now, we're taking it out. And as I was seeking yesterday, why were we in Afghanistan? What were we doing there spending trillions of dollars? And honestly, I think probably Joe Biden and others said the same thing and said, it's time to get out of there. We have other vital interests that we actually need to defend. And as was pointed out in one publication, the intelligence infrastructure, while it may have failed as far as how fast the Afghanistan army was going to collapse because they were in it for the money. And they're fighting people who were in it because God was on their side and was a multi-generational struggle and maybe a struggle of liberation from foreigners. I don't, a lot of different things, but it said our intelligence capacities are so much greater. Do you think the Taliban's gonna come in there and try and rewire their telephone and cellular system so that America can't listen on every single conversation and know everybody's voice print and know exactly who to strike, when and where? America has that capability. And they, the Taliban certainly know that they're actually the ones that are gonna face the real trouble because now they're gonna be the target. So, I wouldn't be surprised if we come to some sort of, there's all kinds of agreements we don't know about already on the ground. Obviously, they're not shooting at Americans to get out. They're just saying, just get out and take your as many people. Are they really saying that? You know, there are demonstrations going on in Kabul today. Demonstrations against the Taliban. People are willing, they're carrying the children on their heads. They are taking huge risks with their families in order to demonstrate. What does that tell us about the true, you know, public sentiment in Afghanistan? They don't hate Americans. They just, they had a failed government. And that justified- We don't know what their sentiment is. What did our $20 trillion that we spent over there in the last, you know, to 25 years get us or 20 years? It hasn't gotten, it didn't get those people decent roads, plumbing, education, housing, healthcare. It went some ways towards that. But we're not going to be able to go in and change a culture there anymore than we could in any other place. But what does change that is they should have given everybody a cell phone with unlimited data on, you know, and those types of things where people then can find the information themselves and build a better society. We have a lot of work to do right here at home, Jay. Our president needs to focus on this nation. And part of this is, of course, focusing on our allies and showing up our defenses and re-establishing America's good and right reputation around the world. But he's got a lot to do right here at home after the disaster of the last four years. So- Well, that may be undoable too. You know, you say it was undoable in Afghanistan. It may be undoable here. But let me turn it a little bit to Tim. Tim, you know, everybody seems to be saying, everybody on the liberal progressive side of things, we got to get out. We got to get out. We got to get out. But wasn't there another way? You know, Joe Biden's comments that he's going to watch electronically, that he's going to know what's going on, that he can be ready to save the Afghan people from the sky. And that doesn't ring true at all to me. When you leave, you leave and you don't have any control over anything. And that's pretty much what's happened. But wasn't there a way? Could we not have thought of a way in the concept of American exceptionalism, American technology, American problem solving to stay there and be a moral leader in the world and somehow give them a better country at a better price? Wasn't it possible? Of course it's possible. The question is how much does it cost to be possible? You know, I think one trillion dollars is a thousand billion dollars. And I think Americans were starting to criticize. Well, a trillion dollars now is being passed around like monopoly money. It really doesn't mean that much anymore, does it? But it's a trillion dollars. And I don't think I don't think it was the lives at risk. I think we for almost a year's time, we didn't have any American casualties. We were there in an advisory role. And I think I agree with your point, we could have stayed on most definitely, but it's part of the financial cash flow spicket that also came with that. And I think that's where we have resource limitations as well as much as we think we have unlimited resources and we can print money willy nilly and free as a bird. At some point we got to stop printing money and we're gonna be at $27 trillion national debt. We're there right now. And I just think that it was time to leave. Yes, but we could have stayed and it just, the question is how much would it cost? Yeah, and how efficient could we have been? You know, Winston, after World War II, the United States had spent a fortune in then dollars in World War II. We really, we spent everything we had and way more and we won the war doing that. For us, it was a huge national debt after World War II. And yet we then went on to spend, I don't know if it was trillions, but many billions in Europe in the Marshall Plan. And that bought us goodwill that has lasted from then on a declining basis till now. And so you don't, it's not rack and pinion. It's not like if you put a dollar in, you know, you get only the effect of that dollar. You get the soft power. You get the global leadership. You get the goodwill, the franchise, the moral high ground. We've lost that here on many levels. We've lost it by leaving and we've lost it by fouling up in the departure. Wouldn't it have been better in a clear and clean decision, recognizing our history and our exceptionalism and our problem solving and technology and our togetherness, which no longer exists. But, you know, wouldn't it have been a benefit? Isn't there always a benefit in doing soft power and being a world leader? At the end, that does translate to money. It translates to trade. It translates to relations that are fruitful and profitable. We've lost that in many ways. Who's to say exactly how much, but clearly at least in some analysis, in some degree, we've lost that. Wouldn't it have been worthwhile? And will it now be worthwhile in other places for us to spend the money for soft power? We need to spend the money for soft power right here at home, figuring out how to shore up our democratic institutions, but it doesn't mean we can't do it abroad as well. And the Marshall Plan was overwhelming success, but these were countries also that were similar in their makeup before the war, that the peoples in government, their understanding of how things functioned in liberal democracies, even though they had been shattered and overrun in cases in Europe. So we had a shared idea of what human rights and values should be. This understanding is not necessarily shared with people with medieval values who chop off peoples heads in the public square or their hands for taking the loaf of bread. That was a different time. It was a different era. However, your point about soft power, it's absolutely, what would you rather have? A missile coming at your country or a food program and an education program and training to bring clean water to your villages and the whole nine yards. That's where it's at. That's where we need to spend our focus because that is, people want to buy stuff. They want safety, they want prosperity. That's what we can share, we can teach. We can share the best ideas and values of America that way. Sometimes do we use power? We were mad, we were upset, we were angry after 9-1-1. There was a strike made in this country that whisted the 100 years of the British and the Russians and they drove them out. I saw the Chinese were musing about going in there and I thought, good luck China. You guys, take the baton at this point but I don't know that they're gonna get any farther than anybody else and I'm not sure that I would want the Chinese version of a society over the Taliban. If I were the Taliban any more than I would want the Taliban version. Neither one would be very palatable to me. Well, Tim, the title of the show that I styled was the chaos came long before the blame and I was actually thinking of the chaos in the United States because the United States has had chaos and decline even before Trump although everybody will have to agree he exacerbated and accelerated the chaos to an enormous degree during his four years and after his four years. But there's also chaos on a global basis and the chaos on a global basis is kind of a function of our loss of global leadership. So everyone will also agree and you read about it every day that the greatest existential threat to humanity, to the planet is global warming climate change. And we have that now in space, we have it visible. You can read about it every day in many places in the country and other countries you can see it happening right now. Although I don't think the press covers it adequately to connect the dots but the only way to handle climate change, the only way I think it's a state of the human condition is by leadership. And the United States could have been a leader in dealing with climate change, but frankly it hasn't been. And during the Trump administration he also exacerbated and accelerated people who deny climate change. The United Nations has not been effective in dealing with climate change. And I would come to the conclusion that the only way this race of people this species of people can ever deal with the greatest existential threat is by collaborating. And the only way I can see collaboration along those lines is with leadership, soft power, moral soft power where you really mean it, not like China and Russia where you really mean it. And so, I see the saving of the planet an obligation or if not an obligation, a possibility of the United States. Isn't that part of the discussion here? Isn't that part of whether we should do things outside our own borders to try to make the world a better place and to have the soft power and to lead all nations? Yes, and I will say we still do that. We just don't make the headlines on doing it. It's what Winston explicitly stated is we're out there giving economic aid to a multitude of countries and we've been doing it for decades. Although Donald Trump tried to make hay and public relations out of retracting money from certain countries, we still are out there. And again, for every dollar you spend on humanitarian aid you get 10 full back and goodwill. And that's something that the United States has shirked from. We've retracted from that effort because leaders like Donald Trump has made it a cultural wedge issue that we're giving country welfare out and we got to stop that and that took people. Yeah, we can't take it of our own country if we were given away to Mexico or we're given it away to some place in the Middle East we got to take care of our own Americans thus grows nationalism. So yes, our diplomats, our goodwill programs our economic humanitarian aid that needs to continue and I think it still does continue but we maybe need to do more of it more concentrated and stop the quid pro quo of we give you economic aid we want something in return called loyalty to the United States. No, that's not how you do it. And so we need to get Joe Biden needs to get those priorities straightened out and the philosophy and the mission straightened out before we continue to give out such great sums of money. But if you look at it on the complex of our national budget these humanitarian programs are minuscule compared to 51% of the defense budget. So where would you like? It's the old economic 101. Do you get more from guns or do you get more from butter? Personally, I'd like to give butter out to the world because that's more advantageous and more goodwill rather than boots on the ground, 16s in your hand and you know, eight, 10 warthog flying overhead. You know, Winston, I think part of Joe Biden's challenge in leading the country right now is all this divisiveness and you know, being concerned about Trump and Trump's base in the Republican States and of course COVID and how they have leveraged politics against health. And I think that probably is him concerned even scares him, changes perhaps the way he thinks about international issues. I think our little too late, too little too late approach to Afghanistan is actually a demonstration of that. And so it points up again how it's important for us to think what the world thinks of us as we decline. I'm not saying that the people in the red states are thinking about this at all but it just seems to me that we have just another reason don't you think to clean up our act because we have a global leadership obligation or responsibility which we cannot perform. Joe Biden or any other president cannot perform without a better function in this country, don't you think? He's doing that right now, Jay. This is part of the cleanup. This is part of it. And if we're comparing this and say this is the failure to the last four years that we went through of failure and I can't even call it failure the last four years, the incredible, just are we even a member of NATO anymore starting with that on down to insulting Canada and Mexico? This pales by comparison of Joe Biden doing something that every president since George Bush has wanted to do which was shut down Afghanistan and refocus our efforts in the places that we need to refocus them on. And this is a great nation. This has part of us looking at ourselves and saying what the hell just happened and how do we fix this? This is instructive for the rest of the world and for them to say we got the same problems and we can take a hard look at it too and we can say how do we learn from their mistakes and how are they learning from their mistakes? And this is what part of America is is us taking a critical look at ourselves all the time and saying how do we do it better? Where did we mess up? We got a lot of cleanup to do in this nation. This is part of it. This was executed poorly, which it was. We learned from that and we realized where we're gonna refocus our efforts. The soft diplomacy, State Department was gutted in the last four years. You lost so many talented people in the government just completely, but especially in the State Department but that can be rebuilt, the USAID. And we are the most generous nation on earth and always have been. We have participated, especially you mentioned the Marshall Plan on down. We give very generously and we will continue to do so and that will be our strength as we move forward combined with, you know, I mean the military, America is the world's police still. That's not gonna change. We have bases all around the world. So it's not an either or it's a both and Joe Biden is doing the best he can with what he's got of a divided country. He's got COVID breaking out. He has governors telling people they can't wear masks. Where do you start if you're Joe Biden? Basically, I can't even imagine how he prioritizes his day when he's got, when he inherited such a mess that's even still on fire. So he's, you know, Afghanistan and the scheme of things. I think probably most people will say this is a wise move in hindsight. Was it poorly executed at the very end? Yes, but has the entire thing been something that we needed to extricate ourselves from? Yes, because all you could look at at trouble in Iran. You could look at left or right. You could go to Myanmar and the Rohingya. You could look at, you know, the Uyghurs in China. There's endless cases of places where America could, might, should, Venezuela, Cuba, on and on and on. But we don't have the ability to do that. Well, it could get worse. And I want to close with this question to you. You know, your last thoughts, but also if you could answer this question. The Republicans are going to attack him, are already attacking him. Trump is attacking him viciously over, you know, the failure of the evacuation. And that is going to cost, it is costing Joe Biden political points. And it's going to be a criticism that continues. He's going to be known. He's going to be tagged with this. This is going to define him from now until 2022 and 2024. And it means that even if with all of the Republican suppression, legislation and all that, all the things they would otherwise do to undermine him and stop him in Congress, it's just another but serious point of criticism and undermining. And frankly, you know, I'm not a betting man, but I would not bet for a democratic landslide either in 2022 or 2024. There is, of course, the chance that Democrats will lose to the Republicans in Congress and the presidency soon enough. This is of great concern because of what we saw the last time. The possibility of world leadership is thus diminished. Your thoughts about that. That for Tim? I'll take it. You know, Jay, I don't mind the criticism that the GOP levies against Joe Biden. That's called politics. That's called one administration, fighting against the other. That's fine. Where I get upset is when we have one portion of the Democratic Party bludgeoning their commander-in-chief. Now, I have not to say that a president is immune from criticism, but Democrats tend to eat their young. And we've got to stop that. I'll give credit to the GOP for one thing. Right or wrong, and usually with Trump it was wrong, they rally around it and they don't go off the song sheet. They stay to the bullet points, the talking points and they don't, until recently, they followed Ronald Reagan's rule. Don't throw your fellow Republican under the bus. Gee, wouldn't that be nice for Democrats to learn that someday? Perhaps they will, but I doubt it. So the bottom line is Joe Biden has to ban her, keep these team of horses together and stay on track. And I think he's doing a pretty good job thus far. And, but there's other calamities waiting for him. And if he can't rely on his own party to support him, you're right, Jay. We won't win the 2022 elections or the 2024. So Democrats, remind yourself of who your elected leader is and rally and support him. Doesn't say you don't get to criticize him, but do so constructively. Oh, excellent point. Such an excellent point, Winston, that you have to respond. Joe Biden is an honorable man. He is the president of the United States. He acts presidentially. He has said, he's owned up to Afghanistan. Of course, is he going to make mistakes? Yes, is he allowed to change his mind? Yes, is he allowed to be human? Yes, we need to afford him as much comfort and grace as we can as a nation, as a people, as a party. He's dealing with extraordinary circumstances right now that he has inherited and that are continuing to go on. Pick one of the five things he needs to focus on intensively, all day long, every day. And that's what he's dealing with and how he's holding up. I don't know, but if you're a praying man or a praying lady, then get your prayers out for that man because he is doing the best he can with what he's got. He's got talented people around him. This moment of Afghanistan will pass. He could say that he was putting in Donald Trump as his second vice president and the Republicans would still criticize him. We need to turn that volume down. It doesn't matter what they say. That's just noise. We need to focus on solutions rather than condemning this man at this time. All right, thinking people would like to let him stay and stay the course and do what is right and be decent and an image that's far, far, far better than Trump could ever been in his best day. But I see him up there at the podium, honestly, you guys. And I see him deal with these issues that are so hard without having national support to speak of. And as you point out, Tim, even in his own party, I say, why do this? Jesus, how about going to Martha's Vineyard and having a party? Why do I need to stay in Washington and get beat up at my age? I've had enough. I'm resigning. I'm out of here. Goodbye. Have a nice life. I asked myself, why doesn't he do that? Why does he stay along with this? What's in it for him? Hey, Jay, Obama tried to have a party in Martha's Vineyard and he got bludgeoned for it. I thought you'd mention that. I'll tell you why, Jay, because this man loves America. He loves America to its core. He loves its goodness and he loves its greatness and he loves the potential and possibilities for what it is and can be. And that's why he sticks at it because with his dying breath, he believes in this nation and he sets an example for all of us. And I respect Joe Biden. Has he made mistakes in the past? Yes. Will he make mistakes in the future? Yes. Will all of us? Yes. But that's why he does it, because he gets up because he knows that we are the best hope and that he is the best hope right now in this nation. And that's it. Okay, Tim, we're really out of time and I would like you to give your last comment. You can respond to Winston or come up with something else. This has been a very profound discussion. What are your thoughts? I just want to be able to say, I wish I could go to school of Winston-Wilch and learn these optimistic, very positive things to say. And someday I will. But until then, I'm going to be my own contanker itself. My last thought is Joe Biden needs to get out in those outer proverbs, provinces, and get those loyal interpreters, bus drivers, truck drivers back into the Kabul airport and get them out of the country. Yeah, there's got to be a way. And as it works out in the context of this discussion, that strategy, that implementation is really critically important. It's more important than just the fact of it. It has implications here at home, in the world, everywhere. He's got to do it. He's got to take some risks and he's got to do it right away. And I'm hoping, be interested in your last remark on this Winston, I'm hoping he has a husband to do it. He does. And it's just about implementing it and seeing where they can go. And like I said yesterday, if the Taliban were smart, they'd probably want to have all the people that were against them leave, just like in the Mariola Bull lift. So let's hope that they do allow them a safe passage to get out and we'll do the best we can with what we got. But those people are in for a world of pain for a number of years now and that's just all there is to it. And we'll do the best we can on the outside with our soft power from this point. But I also hope they are able to get as many out as they can in an orderly fashion in the next 10 days. Well, you know, we've learned this from other countries, especially Vietnam, that we'll always be connected with them. Those people will always see the United States in a special way. And we will always see Afghanistan in a special way, whether we're there and to the extent we're there or not, history has changed. Everything that happens changes history. Thank you so much, Tim Appichella. Winston-Wilch, it's really been a great discussion. We'll see you next time. Aloha.