 This is the Fellowship of the Link call on Wednesday, October 25, 2023. I was just going to report in that I had a first call with a Dutch fellow named Severin de Wit this morning, who is an IP lawyer by trade, but really cares about trust and started a podcast series called Trust Talk. And is now like episode 79, just posted this morning his latest one and interviewing Stephen Covey. And he's been interviewing experts on trust and going sort of going around doing it, but has larger aspirations. He contacted me through LinkedIn. He has larger aspirations to create some kind of a databasey thing, something, some artifact. That contains like the wisdom that people hold and knowledge about trust and whatever else. And we went into a really lovely conversation about how and what and where. That had me smiling a lot because we sort of share a bunch of a bunch of thoughts and ideas about this. And we'll talk again next week. Let me pause there and go find Aram on Jitzi. Oh, good point. Thank you. Thank you. He's on his way over. Thank you. He's all I see his I see his handsome picture right here already. Handsome picture. Yeah, it's a good one. It doesn't even look synthetic. Yeah, yeah, and then I spoke a the nice, the nice blurred background. Gotta say, they are. Hey, nice photo. Thank you. This one was taken by post PR. It looks like a post official staff photo. Yeah, somebody better at photography than I took it. It was just me. It would be, I'm sure much worse. Let's see. There we go. And there you are. Excellent. Yeah. I was just reporting in on a conversation I had this morning for the first time with a Dutch fellow who's an IP lawyer but it has been become an expert on trust and is doing a podcast about trust and is interested in building some kind of online artifact that contains the knowledge about trust that the community holds and I'm like, let's talk again. So we're talking again. Yeah, trust in what though exactly. Well, trust is this many faceted things so trust in lots of stuff trust in each other trust in institutions. Even trust in currencies whatever I mean, we didn't talk about Bitcoin or anything like that but you know the trustless the trustless platform of blockchain and Bitcoin actually requires you to trust the algorithms and however somebody managed to put data on the blockchain, which is not always verifiable or noble. Interesting. Not a big fan of the blockchain stuff in general but I mean this is always a recurrent theme about what we can do to like demonstrate make visible trustworthiness in different ways. I don't know if you saw but the bunch of companies and the BBC are championing championing a metadata standard around trustworthiness. I've known for a couple of years now and sort of had my doubts but it's starting to get enough pickup that I'm wondering if it might actually be a thing now. On the verge of being a thing like pull up the name. Yeah please. C to PA. They have a pretty decent explainer that's content provenance and authenticity. Yeah. Here's the explainer project origin was it's code name I guess originally. Yeah. And the explainer is nice but honestly I think the best thing is. I think right on the homepage they have that really good graphic. Maybe. So here. Let's see if we can ask questions. Oh large introduction video do you think it's in there. Maybe. I think it might be in. Maybe it's in the spec. I don't see anything that looks like a visual. Yeah it's figure three in the specification over here. Which makes it very clear that like what it is is it's like you're adding layers of metadata in an into a media object. And there are a bunch of different like ways you could do that depending on the media object obviously. The idea being that like each adjustment adds an additional like object so if you will crop it, then that crop itself is another additional object on top of the set of metadata objects. Basically it's trust by way of provenance right. So instead of trying to figure out trust exactly you say hey, here's a method to determine where this came from and who authored it. And you can trace it through various permutations of modification and be confident that each one describes that modification correctly and trust in that and if it's not there then you know it's not as trustworthy. It's for media specifically of course right like it's images audio files, things that you can attach metadata to as like sort of transmittable objects. But I think it's gotten to the point where it's pretty interesting. Sounds like a thing that mark on one would like that would be involved in. So why zoom this time instead of jitsie. We had too much trouble with jitsie last time and the time before different people having different trouble so I don't know exactly what, what the thing was but I offered up my zoom and we sort of buckled and went well okay let's try it for a call. We could, we could move back but we're trying to use me but we can't record me and we like to record the calls. I mean I prefer zoom over meet philosophically and I assume the reason most of us prefer jitsie is philosophically as well. Why we were over there. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Anything new and fellow should be in your life or in your activities. I did spend some time this week and trying out some new technology called htmx. And it is very interesting to me pull up. I have a blog post on it, I can share, please. This is from my sort of loose loosely written dev blog where I just sort of type as I accomplish things. But it also links to glitch site which goes, which shows how it works that I built up as part of testing the technology. The idea is it's sort of a way to pull up the notes. I mean our notes here we go. But yeah the idea being like it solves this particular problem. That like single page applications have these very good qualities, but the way people build them is very poor. Mostly people like me who think react is sort of a crock of shit. And, oh, the Anagora doc server is not working. Oh, I was gonna put notes in there, but I guess I'll just, we got the AI note taker. And Peter, are you watching Jitzi in some sense? I am. Thank you. So nobody else has shown up there. Cool. Thank you for doing that. But basically like the idea is here I'll share my screen real quick. What's HTML for particularly is it for people building a single page websites or for devs or for whom. Yeah, I mean, it's for solving the particular problem of that single page websites are best for which is that it is good. It is good to have a version of a website where you can navigate around while still being able to play media, right. Basically the idea being that like there's assets that you may wish to retain for whatever reason. And as you navigate right so let's pull it up. Right so like this is a website and when you click on things it looks like it's navigating. Is this somehow comparable to tiddly wiki of old. No, I don't think so. Right so this is a completely artificial URL if you were to navigate to this. Yeah, it would not actually exist right you can't route to it. This is just an example of capabilities but it goes into your history and if I hit the back button you'd get back to this and if I hit the forward button you go forward to this. And so you can go ahead and hit play on a YouTube video here. Right, and do the thing that you normally can't do which is go to a different page and the YouTube keeps playing right I can go to the home page. I can go to this multimedia page which does have a real URL but is still artificially constructed in my history and the video keeps playing uninterrupted. This is done through like basically HTML properties and hints to do some really sort of cool stuff here. I think we depart from this for a second and no I'm not sure that this works in this browser actually. Hold on. Or I may need to log in. Okay, so what you can do is that a project. Okay, there we go is essentially you define areas of the page that you want to change. Right so this is that media button right and basically you're saying hey go make a URL request. Like normal to this URL. And then instead of navigating there. Take the content for main content, the div that has this ID and swap it with the main content ID div in this HTML. And then I can define other things like for example I'll say, and also if you find a div with an ID of footer in there, swap that out as well. But then I had this div here which sits outside of main content. Don't swap this one. And so I can swap out the various pieces of a page without swapping the whole page to a standard navigation event. And it lets you do cool things like what I just did which I don't know how, like, how knowledgeable you are about like navigation and react and single page apps but basically like this is the core promise of a single page app, which is, you keep some assets of a single page in place while changing some other parts of that website. And this is normally accomplished using a lot of complicated JavaScript code and hooks and shadow domes and all of this complicated pieces of stuff. Right. React itself is a pretty large file the HTML file on the other hand is like sub one kilobyte. It's much more code efficient and it opens up like interesting things like this which look like old web stuff like a web ring here, right. Right. But instead of an iframe or anything like that, this top page is pulling IDs and basic HTML off of another site and using it to inform this so that navigator thing here. It's coming from a total throwback experience with the web ring interface up top. It's like, whoa, whoa, I just scrolled back in time. Yeah, yeah. But the difference is the bottom is not an iframe. Yeah. And the top can pull information out of this that changes. So for example, like this doesn't do it, but I could have it change the title tag or create an artificial URL change that the system would be able to recognize. No one doesn't do it, but. And where it says your name here that could also be changed through instructions from the site below. Right. Is this like transclusion, or is this something different because you're kind of pulling content in from somewhere else and including it in the local. I guess in some ways it's like, like transclusion. The difference is like, or at least how they present it, right? The HTML presentation of their concept is they're interested in speaking the native language of the web, just more applicable. Instead of endless JSON documents of different formats and different apis, etc. and trying to layer all of these extra pieces on top of JavaScript that like in the modern age are not really necessary anymore. Most of the things react does with JavaScript that made it unique when it launched are part of core JavaScript now. Instead, you just generate HTML and instruct other HTML to pick it up. Right. So instead of having to do a whole bunch of complicated JavaScript to make this work, you just use the HTML JavaScript. And then you add these directives on to your HTML HTML. So that motivation section there is a good kind of summary. It's a little bit like transclusion in which the page is, you can think of the pages components, but it's not really like transclusion because you're not inserting a page. It's not like you're replacing it with you're swapping things in and out to do sub page sub page adjustability while maintaining compatibility with the browser conception of and which exists from actually the early 90s the browser of conception of navigation. Yeah. Is it a stupid way to think about this as like replacing iframe with something far more powerful. I mean, it's not too limiting a conception. Yeah, it's not really the same thing. I mean, you can use it that way. That's what the web rig site was doing. Right. So it's more about it's really more about this concept of the single page app and replacing it with something that is more standardized without without having to think about like the complexities of data shape apis and that type of thing. So like, for example, you can have full web pages that it pulls in, but you can also have Maybe a way to say it is to continue with the same navigation metaphor, but use sub page address ability instead of provide you a sub page address ability rather than Yeah. So like for example, this HTML pages just an HTML fragment. Right. It's not a full page, but I can click it and pull it in. And one of the interesting things here is see this tiny caption this gets pulled in somewhere separate is a test page so it's not working super well but like the technology is it just will lay out swanky. Sorry. And if I click it again you can see it removes that because I'm pulling information from a different page. So it's more about that this idea that like single page apps do satisfy a requirement within what we want to accomplish with the web. But the in that like they can preserve state over navigation in the way that apps can right. This is the main thing that apps can do that the web has trouble with that single page apps want to accomplish is the idea that the state of the page persists in some area. While you navigate to other sections or other areas or other pages in theory. And this is and that's the idea here right you're retaining some element of page state while providing navigation. And it's funny because for a guy like me who loves permalinks to things. And I think that's sort of the other thing that's really promising about this that single page apps do not accomplish very effectively. And this is the the next thing I want to try with this but you can build an entire website as standard with all the normal pages and all the normal addresses. With the normal assets on it, while still having this layer of technology and usability, activate when the user starts navigating within that experience, right so in the example I gave before, you can still go to the right multimedia.html. But then as soon as you start navigating around as a user, all of those layers of technology come back in. And now I can go back to doing the thing that I was doing before. Which is changing the surround, right, and that's the really sort of cool thing to me is the idea that I like. The idea that you can build a website exactly as normal, but then have a piece of it that persists once users start navigating around it. And that's the idea that you can build a website exactly as normal but then have a piece of it that persists once users start navigating around it. And I mean that's really valuable for other reasons to be on playing media like, let's say I have some like image carousel that I want to keep or like a sidebar with a bunch of social media embeds in it, preserving those so the user doesn't have to rely on their browser to do caching or things to layer back in in weird ways is a performance uptick to and like also the nice thing is when you have that side type of single page app approach, you can package it up manifested and make it available offline through the web web app installation process right similar to how you can install the Twitter web app or think the Washington Post web app still works the Washington Post web app right and get like some really valuable functionality for users. And get like some really valuable functionality for users who want to use your site like an app and where a lot of the standard pieces get cashed locally on their device, and then they're really just navigating through content. But the nice thing is the way the content works is more standard, right, instead of JSON, which can be any of a million different things and then somebody has to go in and figure out how your JSON API works. You're just generating HTML maybe you're generating fragments maybe it whole pages, but it's all just HTML and that standardizes things. And what's really interesting is there are events that happen on navigation. So you can use HTML custom elements and their capacity to do unique things when they are mounted into the DOM when they appear on the page that that really sort of unlock their functionality. So, I'm, I'm not I just did it for one weekend. So I don't know if I can recommend it yet, but it's, it impressed me enough, and a bunch of other people have recommended it to me that I'm going to give it a try my partners, moving her for podcast website from Squarespace to WordPress. You don't like is that a reaction to Squarespace or reaction to doing the move. It's a reaction to Squarespace and WordPress I tried for 15 years the love WordPress. And I went, I went over believe it or not the Google sites which makes for really simple sites but but I but but I can stand them up in a second they look professional etc etc etc so Yeah, I mean, I also have some problems with WordPress. I personally have stopped using it for anything that I do except for a very small number of things that it's particularly good at right. So, if you're going to give someone a CMS, but also have the full spectrum of options in terms of how to customize it and do whatever you want with it. It's better. Drupal or Drupal. I hate. Yeah, yeah, there you go. There are some people who sing praises of some other platforms I think the one that I see the most often as sort of a like get away from WordPress and do something better is a craft CMS. But Okay, with a C. But like craft CMS is like the license is weird. I don't know. I don't know a lot about it but I know when examining it. One of the things that stood out to me is that the license seems concerning to me. Is that the right one? No. Oh, interesting. Yeah, because this is a pretty this is a pretty new all in one kind of tool like 2021. It's this one here. Thanks. Well, that's what concerns me like I don't, I don't like the license here but everyone I know who uses it seems to like it. And it does remind me of like WordPress what I really loved WordPress. WordPress suffers from like the classic problem of success which is, it's become so successful that it's used by enterprises and so now it must serve enterprises to some extent, but the red hat problem. I think of it as, but yeah, so I'm switching over to WordPress but I want a way to let people play the podcast and navigate around the page. And HTML is like a way that I could, with very little work, accomplish that in an existing WordPress site, because all you need are URLs and HTML and WordPress generates both. So I'm going to try it out for that and see how it goes. And I think it'll probably go well it seems like it would be pretty easy to do for my experimentation. I'm trying to add like some additional functionality here in terms of like playlists and that sort of thing. But like, that's all like bonus like stuff right like just being able to have a podcast website where you can navigate around the website without the podcast stopping and without having to download the podcast and put it on whatever you have to play audio files is like a big accomplishment in terms of a thing most podcast websites do not do. Most of the time they're just sending you on to iTunes or whatever right. And that's how like potentially the single page app concepts can do good things there as well, because then it. If you like a podcast you could theoretically just take the website as a single page app and install it onto your phone, and have it play almost like it's its own app for that particular podcast right. Because all of the hooks into features that normal apps have you can set up notifications, you can get people to subscribe to notifications from a web app for when they're new episodes. You can play in the background you can control with the media controls, all of the reasons you would go to an app, but now it's just HTML right and react this that's not to say like react web apps don't accomplish this they do. It's just the cost of maintenance for react web apps is so high. Right, that's why I haven't done it like single page apps, I want something that is as close to fire and forget as WordPress can get right. So this seems like it might be the way to go. I don't know, but I'm going to try and find out. I also think I was also thinking a lot I was hoping fine soon would come in, but I guess he's busy. I was also thinking a lot about, like, how the agorah hot loads things into iframes, and how this might provide an alternative for that in some interesting ways. We're learning about HTML. And our arm has been playing with it for a week and was giving us a demo and I'd not heard about it at all. So, it's kind of cool and Pete, do you have any perspective you want to add or different way of looking at it because I'm sort of barely wrapping my hands around it. I think I'm just not enough of a coder to understand the. When you say, hey, it takes a lot less energy and space. It's more economical sort of in code and all that kind of I get that that makes a lot of sense to me, but the use cases are hard for me to to figure out. Yeah. It's really just this concept of the single page app made more web natives. Right. The question after that is, why would you have a single page app. Right. So, the example of the podcasts, right. The, I mean, the answer, the wider answers because people want apps. They don't understand it, but people do, and having a web native app that does everything an app can do without you having to maintain an entire different code base is immensely valuable. Because you know people want apps and give them the app and then they can go and leave you alone and you only have one code base to maintain. Something in there is a single page. Well, if it's a single, if you're on the web, if you're on the web, you have built in navigation from the browser. So you don't have the OS navigation, the standard navigation. So then you have to accommodate that somehow. Somebody is going to hit the back button or the forward button or put a bookmark and you have to honor that, even though it's kind of outside your remit of this single page out. Yeah. Right. HTMLX lets you do that natively, right, instead of having to load into a single website and then having React try to interpret the route and then load the right components and get you the right experience. Instead, you come to the web page that is the web page. There's so much work that's been done and stuff like React to be like, well, I need to make it so that Google can crawl my web page when I don't have any real web pages, just this one React route interpreter on one website, right? You don't have to do any of that. You don't have to maintain tons of JavaScript. You don't have to maintain all of these like baking processes to try and pre-build certain things to accommodate, you know, people who crawl the web in particular ways. It just ends up being a lot easier to do. And then, again, it comes to that idea of preserving state over navigation events, right? And that's important for the use case that I have there, which is like navigate around a website without having to change, without having to pause or stop the video you're watching or the audio you're listening to. Which they're building into the OS now. I mean, the latest version of Mac OS or iOS basically has call out video so you can minimize it, move it around, leave it playing for, you know, and keep going. Yeah, but if the page that hosts that video navigates away from it and the video unloads, that pull out video disappears, right? But it wouldn't in a single page app model. Yeah, it is a progressive web thing. Why is there not a progressive web movement? That's not for the progressive means there. It just means progressive improvement. Yeah. I actually just got a thing. I got a dropout. Sorry to talk and not. Somebody was flashing the bat signal. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, talk to y'all later. Yeah, thanks for, thanks for that a lot of questions. Yeah. Hey, Chris, how are you doing? You have a bad microphone. So can you talk? Try it out. Oh, we don't hear you at all now. Not a sound. It's not bad, Mike. It's no sound from Mike. He's really, really quiet. You could just be like, like that character in pitch perfect, the woman who like this. Can we read your lips? Wait, wait, let's see if chat GPT knows how to read lips already. That can't be a hard app. Damn it. Sorry. No, not hearing you. I can't actually work. Oh, really? So it's not working on zoom. That's weird. And picking your microphone from zoom doesn't give you the right option to get to your earbuds. Okay, I'm on a custom to having this kind of problem on zoom, which is why I offered up my zoom is your mic. Nope, not yet. Is your microphone somehow strangely muted? Your earbuds now. Huh. We could play charades. Bomber. Yeah, you can you can type toward us. Okay. Any other things we might want to cover that are fellowship ish because we can also fold the call if we don't have any topic to talk about or whatever else. We don't have any big things. A bunch of AI stuff, but that's not really fellowship stuff. Well, I'm, I'm like the demo of htmx was really interesting because one of the things I'm puzzling about and I don't have enough depth to understand is why are we kind of stuck in how to how to model share and connect information and where's where might that go. It feels like a very fellowshipy kind of question because we have the conversations here started around. Hey, we love open source we love open content we love URLs we love things like that. How do we build knowledge and apps and wisdom out of that. And I'm like, I don't know. You know that the future is AI that understands language and is conversational. We're just going to offload our burdens to the AIs and enter it like chat with them. And that'll be fine. We'll we'll we'll just trust that. Yep. Is this the actual Pete Cummins game talking to who just said that. Or is this I saw that for a long time. Really? Yeah. I never I never dreamed in my lifetime that we would have boss that understand language so well. Yeah. So, so then the question is, how do we deal with enclosure of large language models. Right. As opposed to theft, which that was such a good answer. Pete, that was just brilliant. Chris, I don't know if you saw on the OGM list. Pete's answer to Jessica's question about an article that Doug see posted I think it was him. That was a misrepresentation of known Chomsky is that how this started. Is that am I on the right. It was Gil. That's right. Gil friend. So anyway, there's a there's a fake Chomsky article that is a screed that says that LLMs are the largest theft of property since we stole the lands from Native Americans, you know, with colonialism. And Pete comes back with a lovely reply, which are you going to post at someplace public. No. Damn it. Maybe, maybe somebody will steal it. Well, you know what, that'll be me. Because what I normally do with really good screeds on mailing lists, which go into the bit bucket is I'll copy and paste them put them in my brain and I'll make the thought private. So that at least I can find that again later because it's because it's connected to the right things. And should that person later decide that it's okay I'll like release it into the wild. I'm perfectly happy with it being in the wild except for to whom it's addressed. Yeah, I will mixed up with it. I will anonymize the name. But, but I have to say I was sorely tempted to continue on and it's like okay and maybe what you're talking about is enclosure. And, you know, again I wouldn't wouldn't necessarily compare that with the European Native American conflict but. But anyway, enclosure is a big deal. So we need, we need to figure out how to prove that you're actually not a stand in computer generated avatar that's pretending to be Pete. I have thought through that and came up with a solution. Oh, tell us, please. Unfortunately, doesn't involve applying a knife to your face. No, easier to simulate by the way, but but it does require another human on this side of my camera. Okay, I trust a human test. It is a zoom thing that the green screen is actually assisting or optimizing the virtual background. So the way to do it is to have one or two a couple people in conversation, real time conversation with a lot of like emotional cues and things like that. It's going to be a long time before AI fakes that well is my is my thing. In a sense, I mean I wonder the simple test, and I bet I bet you that current versions of avatars that emulate people will fail this, telling a joke and seeing how quickly it gets it and telling a nuanced joke where your answer your response wouldn't just be to laugh, but to laugh and to like raise an eyebrow or to laugh and to empathize or to laugh into like, like the moment it gets you the moment you're crossing up a couple things I bet that's really hard to do. I wish I hope I'm not wrong. That's a fair one. I so even my test with it just it just multiplies the complexity kind of it doesn't really. So it's going to be in the last a couple years but not pass up. I think the so the humor thing that that's a good one I like it a lot and and you'd have to administrate that test or administer that test very carefully because I people do it all the time that they don't get a joke but they want to pretend that that they they're going along with it. Right. So it's a really common response to go or you know, or to like change the change the subject really quickly and leave the other person off off their foot. So these things these systems will also probably be really good at lie detection or obfuscation detection. You know they'll be they'll be like NLP masters where they can detect skin tone temperature, whatever, which all are affected by our emotional state, right. Yeah. So, yeah, I actually just the pulse thing where where you can use the minute where you can see somebody's pulse through, you know, color. I'm surprised that during the pandemic there weren't more stories of or software for like iPhones and Android phones detecting disease doing a whole bunch of other health stuff I was pretty sure early in the pandemic that that was going to be a big thing. Never materialized. We got stuck on whether or not it was airborne or not. Well, yeah, except some other vector could have come in and said hey guys, you can tell from somebody's voice and breathing that they've got something. And you can tell a day before they know they've got something. Wouldn't that be useful. I mean, we're doing that with early onset Parkinson's I think and other sorts of things you can, you can detect essential tremor in software before you can tell you've got it I mean there's a bunch of stuff like that that's already happening. I think it's, it's doable it's just Chris your Chris your zoom troubles are melting my brain this normally doesn't happen and we keep moving. But the hilarious thing is that fellowship of the link keeps shifting platforms because a different person keeps having trouble with each of our different platforms. That's hilarious. So I like that you've developed kind of a touring test for because this is going to be a problem. Yeah. I'm looking forward to the first zoom call we hold where there's like a mystery new person. I'm going to call who appears lifelike but isn't. Yeah, that'll be fun. That can be interesting. How far away are we from that couple years. So not this year not the expert 2025. Yeah, 2526 at this pace. Crazy. You know, now that I think about it, the way that you would mask like, I don't know. You would have somebody have intimate and problems, you know, oh my microphone doesn't work. Oh my video doesn't work, you know. So you think Chris is a fake. Oh my God. And, and this is so this is actually a game of vampire or mafia, where Chris was trying to get us to realize that he's not a fake by accusing you of being the vampire. Okay, this is really interesting. I was just confessing now on the chat for anybody watching the video later who's wondering what the hell we're up to. But it's good I like it. Totally like dog ate my homework, lost that email. Don't know. Oh, there he is with effects. That's perfect. The conversation is so good Chris. There's a, there's a video short text to video short, you know, text to video short competition that's going on right now, all the entries are in and the judging is coming out in a day or two. But it's interesting watching how how you construct kind of a narrative movie. You know the limited generation capabilities that we have right now. Kind of the same thing, you know, you have these little short things and you kind of fake that you can make a whole movie, and they're pretty good actually. And I screwed up I said vampire should be werewolf I was totally on the wrong game. More evidence for the werewolf. Wait, does that mean that I'm the avatar thing because I didn't get the reference right. I joined and I are watching a police procedural where part of the evidence that was wrong probably but part of the evidence was a misspelling in a typed chat session. Is this Bollack Borlick or whatever. No, dead, dead, dead, dead patch. What's the name of the procedure. It's a police deadlock that you told me about. That was awesome. This one is line of duty, which is much more serious and intense, very, very many of the episodes we end with. I did not see that coming. That's cool. We just watched the movie, remember movies. The burial, which is a drama dramatization of an actual lawsuit against a company that was trying to roll up funeral homes and got sued by a super glitzy glitzy lawyer played by Jamie Foxx. Was it good. It was quite good it was like I liked it. It was, it's on our list. It was nice. It was good it was, you know, not the Pelican brief but but in there. So Chris, since you are hobbled. I'm wondering two things I'm wondering what platform to use next Wednesday. And I'm wondering if we should just fold our puppets right now because we've had a nice time and Chris you can't actually communicate unless you want to try doing semaphore or Morse code in the chat. Oh, good. Okay, so keep zoom. Sounds great. I, I've been doing zoom now intensely since the beginning of pandemic and very few people have trouble that kind of trouble you're having Chris so it's like wow what I wish I knew what was going on here. Are you using some kind of exotic operating system. Are you on like a very, very old version of red hat Linux or something. Who knows. At least you can still here and see us, or at least hear us, we old windows seven now there see see that could be that could be a piece of it. Makes a lot of sense. With there being no motion to preserve the call I move we good to go roll up the sidewalk and cool and see y'all in a week. And Pete I'll probably see you much sooner. Sounds good. Cheers. Thanks guys.