 Hey friends you watch behind the scenes divine intimacy radio, and we're about ready to jump into a show Exploring the demonic and how they work with visions and revelations where the show is based a series inspired by a new book out by Sophie Institute Press called visions and revelations by Father Gabriel of Saint Mary Magdalene our producer will pop that up on the screen so you can see that It's a fantastic book. It's really important for our time just because of what's going on out there So before we jump into the show, I do want to tell you about Which one do you well? I think this one where I want to go first. What do you think? Sure the bottom one sure So if you enjoy divine intimacy radio, we meet so many people we just did at church last night we love the show and and you want to hang out with us for a week or so Not with us We we would like for you to we want to hang out with you. Yeah, of course both ways, you know our So we're leading a pilgrimage to Spain June 5th through the 16th of 2023 not just any kind of pilgrimage to the Carmelite pilgrimage, yeah if you want your spiritual life to be Re-invigorated in a an extraordinary way if you want to hang out with us and we get to hang out with you That's a bit bit on the hangout thing. I mean, that's probably my favorite part is Getting to know people praying with people But I'll be teaching through devil in the castle while we're on the bus traveling from site to site Spiritual warfare in the progress of soul base, you know from Teresa of Abedla So it'll be a life-changing pilgrimage and you can find out about it and all of our events at spiritualdirection.com Forward slash events that you want to say anything else about the pilgrimage. There's an optional stay in Fatima, right? Right, that's important And just to say that following in the footsteps of Teresa and Saint John of the Cross is remarkable I loved Spain. Yeah, it was really my favorite. I mean, I loved all of them Israel in particular the last one And every one we go to we have Conversions, which is really powerful and beautiful to watch people who really Get struck by the Holy Spirit and it really revolutionizes their lives That's just the beauty most beautiful part of it. That's my favorite part. Yeah, it's watching people get lit up so Carmelite Spain June 5th through the 16th of 2023 spiritualdirection.com forward slash event. So I think we're ready to jump into the show mr. Producer man Well, actually I have a minute. Is that right or should I wait or go? Okay on your mark get set go This is Dan and Stephanie Burke. Welcome to divine intimacy radio your radio haven of rest your hermitage of the heart Your monastery of the mind where we lift our hearts and minds to heaven to draw on the wisdom of the saints to help us to navigate this challenging life we're back talking on a series From the very important work just now published by Sophia Institute Press visions and revelations By Father Gabriel of St. Mary Magdalene and our guest today is Father Matthew McDonald who wrote the forward to the book And he did his was it a master? I asked you this for but a master's thesis on On this topic. Was that what you did father? Yeah, so when I was ordained from uh for the archdiocese in new york as a priest in 2014 and I went to st Joseph's Seminary Dunwoody and Yonkers in New York and I wrote my MA thesis on the principles of discerning private relation According to scripture the teachings of the magisterium and the teachings of the Carmelite school of spirituality So this book by Father Gabriel was a key resource for the third chapter of that thesis Awesome. Well, we're continuing in the series and what we're talking about today Is diabolical influence in visions and revelations So How do we understand whether or not it's authentic is the fundamental question because if it's authentic, what do we do? We we pay heed if it's not then we ignore it That's and there's a lot of that a lot of visions and revelations and things going on today Which always happens in the most difficult times in the church both for the authentic for the help of the people of god and the Counterfeit which is the enemy twine trying to thwart that exact effort by god So today we're going to talk about You know foundationally What the devil can do and can't do well if we don't get through it will do another show on that but it's you know I don't want to call out the specific person But a person very high ranking person recently in the church said That the devil is a psychological construct um, and if that's the case That's uh, he's speaking something that's contrary to church teaching into what jesus taught But it's day fee day that devils exist What are your thoughts on that? I think the devil It's important that we don't give too much authority to the devil, but we also realize his influence There's a saying that one exorcist said, you know, the devil isn't under every rock. He's under every other rock and Sometimes he'll utilize, you know, psychological phenomenon spiritual phenomenon a little bit of both. So It's important to identify his influence Which can be very subtle in various ways whether it's through normal spiritual warfare like the discernment of spirits Or through extraordinary phenomenon Yeah, so Let's talk a little bit about this this influence that they can have right so What what What do we know about god's permission? permissive will in these things because You know the argument is well if god were good He wouldn't allow the devil to bother us or you know, why is this happening to me? I must be a sinful person or what because there's all kinds of nuance in here of why this can happen So what is it about god's permission? Given to the diabe to the diabolic influence on people and and how does that work? God's permission Can allow the devil to have a particular influence over men and women Even to the extent of invading and tormenting them in a bodily manner and this is not because god is a sadist Um, this is not something that god positively wills But when we're under demonic influence, it's always And and we're suffering whether it's through desolation through oppression or possession It's something that god allows not only for our sanctification But for the sanctification of the church in the world. He never positively directly wills it But he can use an evil to bring about a good to to Bring about a good end Yeah, so it reminds me of romans 8 28 god works all things together for good for those who are called According to his purpose and i've actually seen this we've seen this being involved in ecstasy uh, the right of ecstasy somewhere the person like Stephanie and i The priest the helpers The person who is afflicted who eventually got free in one case i'm thinking about All of us were drawn more deeply to god through the experience even though it was very painful And the person who was suffering Sometimes the people who suffer do things to bring it upon themselves And so it's allowed in that sense god never wills evil of course But as you said he allows it but in the case in all cases to those who turn to god Good will come of it. Is that a good summary or am i overstating I think that's a great summary I think also another important principle that other people have stated before that we keep in mind is also the devil Does not have his own clay So the devil is not equal to god When we say that we fall into the heresy of dualism the devil is a fallen angel And what he does is he perverts the good he distorts the good He he is not equal to god. He can only try to distort his creation Yeah, and you're you're you're referencing a scripture pass a few scripture passages there I think we should bring out you said the devil doesn't have his own clay You know, I'm reminded of the passage where it says that I am the potter. You are the clay And we of course have that in romans 9 and I think also in the old testament Meaning the devil doesn't can't create anything. He can only distort Um, is that accurate or is there another way of saying that? Yes. No, that's 100 accurate all right, so Moving on thinking about the assaults of the devil and what's permissive What what happens out of the permissive will of god? Can let me think of how I want to say this. Okay, so The enemy so angels Let me go back angels just angels all angels Have a particular mission Especially guardian angels and you know to help us get to heaven. They help us in that mission, right? And what I have found fascinating, maybe you can expound on it according to this influence thing is that god makes He works so through his permissive will through fallen angels To still bring about the greater good that he had planned originally Yes, he definitely does and and again We see that Liturgically and we hear that every year in relation to adam's sin and the exalted Oh happy faults are necessary sin of adam that broke forth so great a savior So even though we may be suffering a grave evil or injustice from the demonic God can utilize that in hidden ways for our own sanctification could call could lead us to a healing through suffering And can also lead others to a healing as you alluded to earlier Or a deeper conversion So the only way that can be hindered Is if we refuse to follow god, right if we refuse to Through the power of our own will our human will Make the decision to follow god. Is that right? Yes, absolutely. Okay, so the the next point then is about freedom of the will And this can be difficult to understand, but I think it can be encouraging for people The freedom of the will According to church teaching all the will always remains free But there are degrees of freedom if you will But my my first question is Is that true with full possession? Because in my experience It doesn't seem to be true I understand the role of the exorcist and the right to Beat up the demon in essence to to have them release their power over the victim and then the victim Chooses I mean most of The liberation and exorcism the majority of it comes through the victim exercising their will But so I guess it's not I'm answering my own question, but you can validate it the The will is always capable in some way of resisting the enemy And fighting back even if fully possessed Yes, even if the devil has possession over your body Again, like you said, he can never have possession over your will He can tempt you to allow an individual To to have possession over his will freely Right, that's that but we allow that permission Yeah, and I guess the suffering I've seen in exorcism is it can be pretty severe Which makes it appear the person doesn't have a will because they're suffering so much that you know, but What I've said to even a victim in exorcism is The right works a hundred percent of the time as long as you stay in the fight, right? The right always works through the history of the church. The right has never failed Unless the person gives up and and that which is a glorious truth, right? And that freedom is through not around Through the suffering through the suffering through the right through the process You can't skirt it You can't get around it because once you know once a soul is possessed through fault of their own Or exposure to you know, however that comes, right? They have to go through the process And um, I think it's part of that that you know the the lord being glorified in the power of his church In the sacrament sacramentals of his church and with respect to visions and revelations kind of bring it back to the topic If a devil if a demon is inspiring a vision a revelation The person always has the culpability and the ability to exit out of that influence Which is the point I think we're trying to make ultimately, but I just I was very encouraged by that idea and wanted to reflect on it so The good angels and devils can Intrinsically act upon the imagination and other internal and external senses because these are all organic powers and the devil has The power to exercise his influence through anything Material and this comes from Thomas's st. Thomas's summa Talk a little bit about that reality father so good angels and demons Can influence our internal and external senses by suggesting things by putting things in front of us that could distract us or You know attempt to hinder our freedom, but we have to allow it to hinder our freedom And um And obviously the angels They could influence us along the way of consolation and reception to grace Whereas the devil particularly in the cases of visions of revelations He may Pervert something that makes something into a vision or a location But it ultimately can be a distraction from receiving grace or from my primary You know responsibilities or state in life It's important that sometimes we when we get certain things and this is why again the church Takes so much time to discern these things on the Scale of larger apparitions or when we get things in prayer on retreat or before a holy hour We don't merely jump and and assume You know either way we we test it and we discern it over a period of time All right, good. So when we get back from the break We're going to talk about whether or not demons can work through miracles which can come through those who Have apparitions and or see apparitions and visions or whatever So we'll talk we'll talk about that after the break. We'll be right back When your market set go Welcome back to divine intimacy radio. This is dan and stephanie burk and we're with Father Matthew McDonald. We're talking about a very important subject Visions and revelations a new book published by sophia institute press Uh, it's author is father Gabriel of st. Mary Magdalene a very famous rector of the of the Oh, teresianum in Rome And father wrote the forward to the book and and and his master's thesis on the topic So we're running through just an overview of how it is that the demonic works or can work or can't work Through visions and revelations to falsify them So you you alluded before the break father to the idea That the devil has no clay so How if a vision and revelation or revelation occurs and it's accompanied by a miracle I mean, how what can the devil do to create a mirror can the devil create a miracle? Which I think we've we've stated he can't but he can certainly Manufacture them we we saw this with moses and the old testament And the the sorcerers imitating some of the things that moses did But talk talk a bit about what the enemy has that in his power To deceive us with respect to miracles or false miracles so On a metaphysical level angels and devils Who are fallen angels are higher beings than? human beings human persons because they're purely spiritual beings so they They're intellects perceive things In a different way than we are. They're not the same as god. They are not equivalent to god so um They can know they can have certain details about human life What we're suffering through And since angelic powers um surpass human powers They can perform prodigious feats Which arouse our admiration so far as they exceed the power of knowledge of human beings so you know, I guess part of their power then because Years ago, I read a book It's a beautiful side of evil About an evangelical woman who was involved in kind of new age spirituality and How she experienced healings and things like that Which she thought were true And I can't remember what her conclusions were about it in the book. It's been like 20 years ago But I do remember that there was some discussion about The enemy's ability to falsify and sort of sleight of hand of the Of the person attempting to gain an audience or crowd to be But I I think what can happen. It seems to me Is because the enemy can suggest things and can create And I've even experienced this in relationship to And stephanie has too in relationship to being involved with ecstasy Can create a kind of a loser a state of illusion or Or a hazy state on the person somehow messing with our minds That can make us more believe In something if we were purely intellectually sober, we might not ever Believe am I going out of bounds or is that does that make sense? Oh, absolutely. That's a hundred percent You know sensible what you said and through one's own experience whether you're an exorcism industry or not When you're going through traumatic events, even one can just bombard you with random thoughts as he as you've mentioned in many of your books You know reflecting on st. Teresa of Avalon st Ignatius leola and you just You can't sift through reality because you're just Buying into the lies that he suggests to you So the go ahead star No, I'm just I'm just really thinking about the devils cannot work through miracles So I keep thinking about I think it's in Haiti That a lot of organizations are going over to and christian organizations and they're seeing a lot of What would be termed miracles healings peoples, you know You know crippled foot that's being healed and Leg that's shorter than the other being extended, you know all these kind of things How how are we to look at those things? Are we are we to assume that through the faith of the people that this is that these are true that they are of god? We know that The enemy can be laced through these things and have effects and maybe through pride or whatever Like what how do we look at those things that are happening? How are we to take them? so with slow, you know analysis um with Something that you know is mentioned in the back of the book with limitations What things that the devils can't do? One of the things that he can't do is instant instantaneously cure wounds Fractions legions or other injuries. This is only something that god can do. So in that case There needs to be some sort of scientific analysis to assure that this is actually beyond a science scientific explanation what this happened You know such as a fractured foot all of a sudden miraculously coming together so Can the devil for instance? Make someone blind Somehow and then if The bad the bad visionary who's who's trying to bring credibility to their visions And in quotes heal them, but it's not truly a healing But all they've done is remove the diabolic influence that caused the blindness Yes, the devil can very much do that and there have been cases None come to mind right now But they were definitely throughout the history of the church Father Garibu Lagrange Antonio and marine attests to that fact But they can't sort of a bone a different example is if a bone is broken That's beyond you know, they cannot put that bone back together But as you noted there'd have to be Some investigation to determine sure but and but even in what you were discussing So what what you would be talking about is then oppression of some sort of Diabolical oppression on someone that has caused the ailment right and through prayer the person is delivered It's it's released and they can see right so that that is of god the illness is of Of some sort of diabolical well, there's two scenarios The one you just described is exactly right if it's like you Praying over someone who's blind, but it was caused by demonic influence That would be of god that they became free But a visionary in quotes who was attempting to manipulate an audience as to their veracity Could be in cooperation with a demon set the person free as well. And that's that's what Father mentioned were has been noted in certain cases. Does that make sense? Sure. Yeah so Let's talk about prophetic predictions Because this this one can be tough to discern because this the extraordinary intellect of a demon or an angel a demon cannot tell the future But they they have greater predictive powers than any human strategist that's ever lived. Is that a Is that a good way to think about it? How does that all work? Yes, because of their angelic intellects, they can perceive certain things that we don't because their intellects Exists their beings that exist outside of space and time that come into time Whereas we as human persons Have our embodied spirits and we exist in time So they can perceive more than we do, but they can't perceive in the same way As god does so they can understand Certain aspects of our past certain present struggles wounds sins addictions in ways That we may be numb to in the moment so then What so what they can do? As an example is They could they can have plans to manipulate a certain situation Now they don't have absolute authority to do whatever they want to do But they can set up scenarios where it appears that the prophetic reality of a vision or a revelation that isn't true Is true because something comes true in the future that they have manipulated, but they have no ability to see into the future Yeah, they have no ability to see into the future nor do they have any ability to see into the secrets of a person's mind and heart Um But they can conjecture much more easily and know our temperament our character As well as certain circumstances from our past and present and they could derive things from that Yeah, I one of the discussions i've had with directees is that you know as as the enemy is watching us Um, he studies us. He knows what our triggers are Body language is I mean body language is like 90 percent of communication I don't know what the scientific thing is but knows what we lean towards what we what draws our attention What we linger too long on, you know, those kind of things and so can work through that in order to manipulate environment or situations or Influence something in order to try to tempt us to sin is that But but he can't read our heart and our mind, but he can read our body language and and just by deduction Look at our actions and say oh Oh, she's leaning towards xyz therefore i'm going to make it happen more often until she falls Right, that's why we can say why is this stinking temptation keep happening to me And it's because there's something that we're Being called to which is to rise above it to a particular virtue, but then we also Have to be very very concerned of oh, yeah, I'm being called to a higher virtue, but I need to be purified of whatever that is in me that's You know allowing this to come up because it's obviously something that's got to be taken away Yes, absolutely, and that's that it's so important that when we are undergoing trial It doesn't matter how many times we fall but that we pick ourselves up through prayer and take advantage of the sacrament of confession When when we do struggle with temptation So this is one show of a series of fascinating shows with father mcdonald on visions and revelations The demonic and what what's real and what's false and it's been inspired by The series has been inspired by a new book Published by sophia's to press called visions and revelations But by father gabriel of st. Maria magdal and a lot of what we're talking about How much of this that we're covering is in the appendix of the book father i forgot Most of this is in the second appendix. Great. So it is a really it's probably I think it's the best resource in print on this topic Would you agree with that I definitely think it is, you know, and um One strength of the book is it really shows How the individual should approach these things as well as the spiritual directors You know when somebody comes to them saying i'm experiencing this in prayer So head out to spiritualdirection.com forward slash shop to pick up the book or eWtens religious catalog or Wherever you buy your books, but do buy it. Do read it. We're grateful. You've been with us And thanks for being with us father mcdonald. We'll continue this series Next time talking about demonic falsifications And if you are on the live stream and you want to pop out to spirit of facebook spiritualdirection.com or Or youtube We'll do one more show on this topic and we'll see you then So until next time may the god of peace make you perfect in holiness May he preserve you whole and entire spirit soul and body Irreproachable at the coming of our lord jesus christ amen