 All right. Hello, Rebecca. Thanks so much for joining me today. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, I'm glad you came here. I have seen your content kind of floating around to check out some of the stuff. But recently my girlfriend and I have been binging it. I reached out to see if you want to come on. So for those who are unfamiliar with what you do, your content, your work, can you lay out a little bit of your background and the type of content that you make? Sure. I'm the founder of Skepchick at Skepchick.org, which is a website focused on women and critical thinking, also feminism and atheism and science stem topics in general. And I've got a few other writers that write for me there. And then also I have a YouTube channel where twice a week I do videos on all of those topics, basically anything that catches my interest in that realm. Yeah, I've really been enjoying it. I found the importance in all these conversations, you know, not just skepticism, but just kind of understanding science, scientific literacy, especially during COVID. I'm very fortunate that I really got into this topic before COVID because with all the stats and everything thrown out. So one question I want to ask you too, when you say critical thinking, there's a lot of different ways that people discuss and have definitions. How are you defining critical thinking? Yeah, it's a phrase that I use mostly to avoid the word skeptic or skepticism because there's just so much bullshit. Can I curse? Yeah, you can. Or hell, yeah, you can. Okay. Gosh, yeah, I can. So yeah, there's so much bullshit surrounding the idea of skepticism. And, you know, when I started skeptic, it was, you know, I was, I felt like I was part of a community of skeptics. And back then the idea was we critically evaluate claims, usually paranormal or pseudoscientific claims that other people might uncritically accept. So my entry way was through psychics because I was a magician. And yeah, there's a, I worked my way through college as a magician and working in a magic shop. And there's a long history of magicians debunking the paranormal from Houdini up through James Randy and Penn and Teller. And so that was my introduction to skepticism. But then, you know, it becomes this thing that you can, a philosophy of life that you can apply to anything and everything, and to a small degree or to a large degree, sometimes for good and sometimes for ill. So, you know, early on when I got involved in the skeptics movement in 2004-ish, that was when it was very popular for 9-11 truthers to go around calling themselves skeptics because they're skeptical of the Bush administration's story of 9-11. So then we would have to say, well, we're not those kind of skeptics. So, and I think that the term critical thinking is a better, a more understandable term because to me critical thinking is kind of pumping the brakes a little on the things that you assume to be true and subjecting them to a critical analysis as though you're a disinterested third party. And through that is, you know, how I've become an atheist and, you know, that has kind of led me to the conclusions I have. But I will still always occasionally hold those conclusions up to that hard light again just to make sure that they still hold up, you know, and sometimes they don't, and then I change my mind. So, yeah, for me critical thinking is a nonstop process of checking yourself before wrecking yourself. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, you know, just like updating beliefs and stuff like that. I think, you know, one of the reasons I ask people like how they're defining critical thinking is I remember just before really getting into like skepticism and even like, Socratic questioning and all these things, right, these tools that we use, I heard people just throw in critical thinking around like, oh, really nearly. And basically, they were just using the term critical thinking for like, I disagree with this, you know, and I'm like, okay, well, that's not really defining anything, you could disagree with whatever you want. And I saw it a lot actually, you know, coming from the YouTube world as well. A lot of it within like, commentary channels and stuff, and saying like, if you use critical thinking, I'm like, well, you're just having an opinion, there's no scientific, you know, so I'm like, let's narrow this down a little bit. But, you know, it's interesting too, I didn't realize your background like and, you know, magic and the paranormal and psychics and stuff like that. That's, that's like where I got interested to like, I was sitting around like, how do people believe this stuff? You know, and you know, one of my favorite books is The Skeptics Guide to the Universe. Have you read that from like Steven Novella? I have not read it actually. I used to be on that podcast. What? I am learning so much about you Rebecca. That's what's fun about having somebody on. Yeah, I was on SU for about 10 years. What the hell? That is amazing. So, so yeah, well, anyway, so maybe, maybe some of the stuff from the book was inspired by you too, but yeah, there's so much in there about the paranormal and everything and something I'm always asking to, because we have a limited capacity to care about things, right? Like for example, you know, feminism and issues with women, that's a big deal, especially with the shit going on in Texas and that nonsense. So like, then, then there's like people who believe in like paranormal and psychics, right? So in your, in your opinion, your experience, like how, like how much does, does, do these kind of beliefs like matter? Like do you go out of your way if somebody like believes in like, you know, the paranormal and so it's like, well, you know, I, you know, was playing with a Ouija board and oh, it's a sign from a ghost or whatever it is, like how much weight do you put into that in comparison with other issues that we're tackling in the world? Yeah, it's a fair question to wonder, you know, what the harm is in certain beliefs, because yeah, you know, I have friends who talk about their horoscopes and I'm never totally sure how serious they are, you know, because it can be fun to, to talk about astrology and stuff. So long as at the end of the day, you know, it's bullshit. But for, for those who don't know it's bullshit, you know, I'm not rushing out to burst their bubbles. But there are harms to that kind of magical thinking. And, and it comes in, it's, it's, there's a spectrum of things that can result from that kind of magical thinking. You know, on the one hand, you've got psychics who end up extorting their clients for tens of thousands of dollars. Or to me, even worse than that, are those people who extort people's feelings. Sorry, my dog just ran in. Hey, buddy. Hi. The psychics who, who, you know, they, they, they take people's memories of their dead loved ones and distort them and use them to their own financial advantage. And in the very worst cases, you've got people like Sylvia Brown, who went on national television and told a woman that her son was dead, that her missing son was dead, only to have him be found alive several years later, you know, and she's just sitting there like, he's dead. Give up, you know, and it's like, and she knew she was a fake, you know. So that kind of sociopathy that can really damage people, like their, their psychic well-being, you know, as well as taking their money. So there's, there's those instances, but you know, it's, it's not always like that. It's usually, oh, you know, I paid 10 bucks to get my palm read at a fair and it was fun and who cares. But even that sort of thing, you know, those experiences provide the backdrop for a society that cares less about honesty and about science and critical thinking and, you know, and, and all of those things eventually lead us to where we are now. So to give you an example, one thing that I have fought against for the entirety of my time in the skeptical movement was to focus on vaccines because vaccine hesitancy and misinformation was being driven largely by women playing upon this idea of mothers as knowing more than doctors, you know, and having this natural intuition that should lead them to know what to do in all circumstances. And the fact of the matter is that, you know, people like Andrew Wakefield and Jenny McCarthy who spread this idea that the MMR vaccine, the measles mumps ravella vaccine, causes autism, which it absolutely does not. It's safe and effective. You know, they have led to some, like an actual body count. However, for the most part, you know, these bursts of measles popping up in, you know, various communities in California, with low vaccine uptake and other places, they tended to get, they tended to be restricted to these little bubbles, you know, because the rest of the country more or less stayed vaccinated. So there is still mostly this herd immunity protecting people. So we would still get this question like, well, what's the harm really? Like they're only hurting themselves because it's not really a big deal if a couple of people decide that they don't want to get vaccinated. It's, you know, it's usually not a big deal. So now we're in a situation where it's a big deal because there's so many of them now that they're threatening the rest of us, you know, and people who physically cannot get vaccinated, you know, people who are immunocompromised. And so now we see the groundwork that was laid in the late 90s and early 2000s by people like Jenny McCarthy. We see where that has led us. It's led us to this point. I guarantee that had Andrew Wakefield never existed, the United States would have a higher vaccine uptake today. But he laid that groundwork for not trusting vaccines, for not trusting medical science, and for instead trusting your intuition, your mother's intuition, you know better. All of that led us to where we are today. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the vaccine thing, you know, I've had, you know, authors on here talking about that and the history of Andrew Wakefield. It's a topic that's really close to me because my son's mom, when we were together and she was, you know, pregnant with my son, she was working with children with autism, right? And in those bubbles, that's a huge conversation. And when my son was born, she was extremely hesitant. And she's like, here, just before we make a decision, watch this documentary. And it was Andrew Wakefield's documentary. I didn't know anything about him. I didn't know anything about the arguments. But also back then, you know, my son's 12, so 12 years ago, I had no idea about, you know, how to be skeptical, how to question things, how to look at other sources. And especially with Andrew Wakefield, you know, he pops up in just about every book I read about like debunking bad science and stuff like he was being funded, you know, by like this group of lawyers, he was trying to patent his own thing. Like there's, there were conflicts, there were so many issues with that. And that's one of the reasons I try to educate people like, Hey, because sometimes we have this like, blind trust of authority in some ways, like, Oh, well, that guy's a doctor. Like remember when COVID started, you had like these chiropractors coming out to share their It was exactly the same as we saw after 9 11. The 9 11 truthers that got the most attention were engineers and architects, you know, and it's like, they don't know what they're talking about just because they're engineers. But you know, people were like, Oh, well, they must know what they're talking about. Yeah, that but jet jet fuel can't melt steel beams, you know, and it is just so frustrating. It's exact same thing with COVID, a bunch of chiropractors and life coaches, and hold me up with this or whatever, you know, yeah, just coming out of the woodwork to spread bullshit. And it's very frustrating. And real, real doctors who join in, you know, because there's always going to be some, you know, and, and in a time like COVID, when, you know, everything is happening so quickly. And we're basically do like scientists are doing science on the fly in front of the world, you know, and it, it doesn't get, you know, we, the scientific process only works through time and repetition and, and careful research. And all of those went out the window for, well, still for two years. Yeah, still doing with it. And yeah. So, so real quick too, like going back to the whole psychic conversation, because we're about to dive into some meaty mental health topics. Here's another place I'm curious, like my girlfriend loves to fuck with me and just send me TikToks, like a lot of them are funny, but then she'll send me the psychics of TikTok just so I want to just die. Right. But anyways, I'm constantly conflicted about the placebo effect, right? Because like you said, like I've read, you know, different research around if somebody believes in this supernatural thing, they're more likely to believe in other dumb things. But anyways, so if we're talking about mental health and we're talking because I agree that one of the main issues with psychics is when they're scamming people, when people are throwing a lot of a lot of money. But, you know, for example, therapy can be expensive. Our healthcare system sucks and not everybody has access to mental health meds. So what are your thoughts around like if spending X amount on a psychic is helping somebody cope with grief, like believing, you know, that their loved one has passed on, where do you think that kind of lands? Like because it's helping them somewhat with their mental health, but it's also bullshit. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. I think it's dangerous, you know, and I'm somebody who is very skeptical of big pharma, you know, I am in favor of universal healthcare. I think that the pharmaceutical industry in the United States is disgusting and up in control and run by sociopaths. So I feel for people who can't get, you know, who can't afford mental health, you know, like appropriate, you know, therapy that they need. But I think replacing that with a psychic is extremely dangerous because this is a person who has zero training and who can and often does end up causing more problems than they solve. You know, and that's just in general, you know, because this person doesn't, you know, your random psychic doesn't know how to, you know, counsel someone who's grieving. And I don't think that it's helpful in the long term to just lie to somebody to, you know, get them through whatever. And, you know, my big intro really to psychics was John Edward, who was very popular in the late 90s on, he was on the sci-fi channel, I think, and he had a huge show. And I remember, so I was maybe like 19 or 20 at the time. And I had just found out that a kid that I used to babysit was hit by a drunk driver and killed. As he was on a school bus, the drunk driver hit the school bus. I think the kid I used to babysit was the only one who died. And it was just an unimaginable tragedy. And around that time, I happened to discover the show where this guy claimed to be able to talk to the dead. And I remember saying to my boyfriend at the time, who was also a magician, like, I think maybe, maybe I believe in an afterlife. And he's like, okay, why? And I was like, well, because, you know, I saw this guy on TV and he was saying, you know, he was telling these families things that they, like nobody else would have known, except for their dead loved one, you know. And he just looks at me, he's like, Rebecca, that's cold raiding. And I was like, what? He's like, you literally do that in your ads. Like, this guy's just doing magic tricks. And for me, it's like the lie felt good for a minute. But it can't hold up, you know, and the resulting crash, when you realize that it doesn't hold up is so much worse than just working on your own grief and your own mental health. So yeah, I think, you know, have psychics helped people get through hard times in their life, I'm sure of it. But the power that you give some random stranger over your psyche like that, it's to me, it's too dangerous. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you've sold me a little bit on that too, because I'm always like, hey, you know, if I help them cope a little bit, but, but yeah, like the long term, like if you're giving somebody a bad tool to cope, you know, in the long run, it's gonna hurt them, right? You know, and I try to teach, you know, when I'm talking with my son, like, it'd be easier when he was a kid if I just kind of told him all these like, you know, fun stories and stuff, but instead I'm real with him and he has a better outlook. And I'm trying to teach him to be a, you know, sort of a scientific thinker. But yeah, I just thought of this too. I forgot about this docu-series. Have you seen the Netflix docu-series, Surviving Death? Have you watched that? No. I have a guilty pleasure of watching these shows. But anyways, it's all about these, it's like each episode's a different story. Like some of them are like, Oh, I died and went to heaven. There's, there's this one family who believes that, you know, believes in sidekicks and they spend insane amounts of money. But then they also have this kid where they swear it's somebody who was reborn into him and they find who the dead guy was. And they go and they visit this family. It's wild. So if you want, if you want something fun to watch. That sounds crazy. Yeah, it's bonkers. But yeah, I'm reminded too, though, of this might be another good example of like short-term happiness versus long-term damage. I have a friend who, her mother died and she was just completely broken because as, you know, anybody would be as close to their mother. But I remember talking to my friend about the issue and she said, you know, I never had any pets growing up. And so the first, and I feel like a lot of people learn how to deal with death through pets. She's like, this is the first death I've ever dealt with. And it's my mother. And like, it was, that was so colossal to her because she hadn't, she didn't have the tools to deal with that kind of grief. So I think it's important that we, not that necessarily every child needs a pet so they can learn about that. But I do think that we better prepare our kids for future problems by letting them go through these things and teaching them the rational way to deal with them. And I think that that gives them the tools so later in life, they know what to do. And so I think that, yeah, just like lying to somebody, they never build up that tool set for dealing with grief. And I think it comes back to bite them on the ass. Yeah, no, absolutely. And, you know, speaking of, speaking of tools, something I was thinking about, because one of the reasons I reached out to you and said, Hey, come on, I loved your video on depressive realism. Because, you know, for those who need to still go check out the video, it's not this research about depressed people seeing the world a little bit more as it is. But you chat a little bit about like, you know, kind of like our cognitive distortions and stuff. So I'm curious, like, you know, because being skeptical or being, you know, a critical thinker, it's about questioning things, right. And for me personally, this has helped me so much with my mental health, because this this thing up here can tell me all sorts of crazy shit, right. And part of my cognitive behavioral therapy is questioning these things. So, you know, I don't know if you want to kind of give an overview of depressive realism and all that, but I'm curious for you and your personal experience, has has this kind of skeptical thinking helped you with your mental health at all? Like, are these tools that could be applied to it? Yeah, I mean, I think so. So, yeah, depressive realism is the idea that depressed people are depressed because they see the world for what it is, which is depressing. And that their depression then does also go on to help them understand the world better than than people who are happy, optimists. And it's mostly based on a bunch of studies that were done in the late 70s, that so the one I mentioned is a study in which they got a bunch of students half depressed, half not depressed, and they had them push a button while a light bulb lit up. And the two things had nothing to do with one another. The button pushing did not make the light turn on or turn off, but they didn't tell the subjects that. And they found that depressed people were more likely to accurately guess that their actions were useless. And it's like, well, if you're testing something that is inherently depressing, then yeah, the depressed people are going to do better. Like, I mentioned that if, you know, if there were a study where like the goal was to stay in bed as long as possible, I'm going to do better at it than non depressed people. And meanwhile, there are other studies in the video I mentioned one by Richard Wiseman. Wiseman wasn't studying depressive realism at all. He was studying luck. And he found that people who thought of themselves as lucky were more likely to be observant and to take advantage of opportunities as they were presented to them. So in one case, for instance, he had left a five pound note, I think, outside of his lab. And the people who thought of themselves as lucky were more likely to see the note and pick it up while the depressed, you know, unlucky walking disasters didn't even notice it. So, you know, again, he wasn't studying this concept. But there's an example of non depressed people who are actually better at observing reality. But in this case, the reality was a positive thing. And so when you ask about if my skepticism has helped with my mental health, absolutely. And I think that I do owe a lot of this to being a magician as well. Because magicians learn how easy it is to fool someone. And more importantly, how easy it is to get somebody to fool themselves, you know, like there are some illusions where I as the magician don't really have to do much, you know, I let you the person watching the trick, just lie to yourself and invent your own little backstory. And, you know, obviously, I can't go into more detail or I'll be put to death by the magician's counsel. But that taught me that the brain is a liar. In the best of times, your brain is lying to you. And so I got very interested in how your brain lies to you. Another avenue there is, you know, optical illusions, which a lot of people I think don't necessarily relate to these other things, but it's exactly the same. Like your brain evolved in such a way that when you spin a disk with a spiral on it, it looks like you're falling into a hole, you know, or if you look at these squares, and they look like they're different colors, but they're actually the same color. You know, that's that's your brain lying to you. So it's to me it's that's kind of a central tenet of being a good critical thinker is understanding how easy it is for you to be biased about something and not even know it unless you really work hard to take that step back and look at what the actual situation is and and and start from the assumption like, well, what if I'm wrong about this? You know, and so to me, you know, when you're asking about what critical thinking is to me, and then you mentioned how other people can distort the idea. I realize that I think one big difference is that I see it as a very personal process. Critical thinking to me isn't about telling someone else they're wrong. It's about wondering if I'm wrong, and then purposely seeking out more information based on the assumption that I could be wrong. Yeah, yeah, I you know, I've been trying to kind of figure out since I, you know, started the podcast and interviewed so many authors and stuff. You know, what are my goals? What am I trying to do and stuff? And it all comes back to like being able to update my beliefs and challenge my beliefs, like literally save my life. Like I was a drug addict until 2012. And I had these these seven stone beliefs, like the only way I can feel good is if I snort pills or drink alcohol, right? You know, my depression was fueled by these ideas that I can't be loved. Everybody hates me, you know, my anxiety was fuel. And then when I just like what you just said, just even bringing in the question like, is it possible that I'm wrong? Right? Yes. And it literally saved my life. So now, you know, being sober nine and, you know, nine and a half years, I look at just different things, whether it's on political views or whether it's on, you know, just anything that I'm coming across. And how I, you know, I think I think a good, a good way to do this or at least this is what I do. If I find something and somebody says something that I really agree with, like a thousand percent. That's when that's when the little idea comes in like, Hey, is it possible you're wrong about this? If I agree with something too much, that that's a good, that's a good signal. And that's how I am. Whenever I read a scientific study, conclusion, I already agree with. What was the one that came up recently? Gosh, I don't remember what it was, but I'm like, all right, I agree with this. So I've really got to dig in. And I started looking into the study more deeply, just reading it through. And it was so statistics heavy. And that's just not my thing. So I started writing a script for a video about it, where I'm like, just assuming that the stats are correct. And then I stopped and I'm like, no, no, I can't, I can't do that. So I shipped the whole thing off to my friend and fellow skeptic writer, Jamie Bernstein, who's a statistics genius. And she got back to me within the hour, you know, and actually confirmed that the study was good and that the statistical models were good. But yeah, like I definitely had that moment where I'm like, I'm doing an unskeptical thing right now. And like, I was unfortunately partly motivated by the idea, like, if something, if someone else checks into the study and finds out that it's not good, that I'm going to look like it more on. So, you know, I end up doing the right thing in that circumstance, but it's so easy to just be like, Oh, I agree with that. Sign on. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I see as a major issue, whether it's talking about COVID or, you know, whatever it is, you see people where they, they can find the one thing and in the age of the internet, I can literally find anything out there that will agree with what I'm saying, right. And even with studies to like, what drives me nuts is how many studies are behind the paywall, you know, like, fortunately, I have access. But like, I realized after, you know, researching a few different topics, like, I can find studies to agree with me, right. But like peer reviewed, where they conducted, you know, to like, a certain scientific standard and all that. And it's, it's hard for people to do that because, you know, confirmation buys it just, it feels so good. You know, when you said, like, when the conclusion agrees with you, this is, aha, I was right about this, you know, that's also a good reason why I think that when we teach kids particularly, but people in general about science, we highlight the failures of science, because I, you know, I'm definitely guilty of this as well, just saying like, you know, trust science, believe scientists, but that kind of distillation ends up being incorrect when we are, for instance, faced with a huge replication crisis in the sciences, especially in fields like psychology and sociology, which we need now more than ever. But science as an idea isn't perfect and divorced from the rest of the world. The topics we choose to research the way we go about researching them, what people tend to gravitate towards the racial and sexual makeup of the people who are doing these studies, and then whether or not anyone ever bothers to replicate findings. The entire thing, you know, we have, we have a joke on my, I have a Twitch channel where I play video games, and there's a running joke, which is, what's the problem? The problem is capitalism. In our Capitalistic Society, we reward scientists for doing interesting research and new research. And so that makes it more likely that people will flub data and less likely that anyone will bother to try to replicate studies because that's boring. Getting a negative result is boring, you know, and if you want to get tenure, if you want to keep your job, you publish. So, yeah, the whole endeavor is deeply, deeply flawed. And so when you've got a situation like what we're dealing with COVID, on the one hand, it's like, okay, we have to trust the experts. But also, we need to understand that the experts are currently disagreeing and that's normal. That's a normal part of science is, well, I found this. Oh yeah, well, I found this. Well, that's a different conclusion. Let's figure out what the reality is. It's a living, messy process. And it's not as easy as saying, like, well, this study says this, and so that must be true. Yeah, yeah, unfortunately. And, and, yeah, and Rebecca, you know, after watching your comments, I'm like, you know, Rebecca and I are going to get along because I literally think the same thing. I'm like, what's the problem? Capitalism. Aside from that, aside from like, you know, listening to the experts and what they're finding, it's like, who's paying the experts? What do they, what do they get from this? Like, I actually missed one. Somebody on Twitter had to point this out to me. I made a video recently about how vegans and vegetarians tend to be more depressed. I was going to ask you about that video too. Well, yeah, and it's interesting because, so this wasn't like a new study, it was actually a meta analysis, which is when, you know, you look back at a whole bunch of previous research and see what the consensus is. So meta analyses are very important because they can help sum up a large body of research, but also they can be highly biased because, you know, how do you pick and choose which studies to run with? And so this meta analysis did find ultimately that vegans and vegetarians are more depressed. A conclusion that I accept, I've seen a lot of the research that shows this, my interest was in why, and so I talk about that in the video. But after I published the video on Twitter, somebody was like, do you see who funded that meta analysis? It was like the dairy farmers of America. Like the beef council. And it's like, oh, I can't believe I miss what. Yeah, no, that's, that's something, you know, especially in a capitalist society, we always got, this is something else I teach to my son, right? Like, no matter what you're reading, learning about whatever, like always ask like, who's benefiting from this, you know what I mean? But, but yeah, so I'm vegetarian, which is one of the reasons my girlfriend and I watched your video last night, because we don't eat meat. But yeah, it made sense too, when you were talking about like vitamin D deficiency and stuff, because I actually found out through some recent blood work that I was low on vitamin D. So I've been taking those, you know, and, and sometimes just those things encourage me to take vitamins or exercise. You don't have the same excuse as me, though. I lived in Buffalo in the winter here in Vegas. Get out in the sun. Yeah, no, I, yeah, that's the other thing too. Like, I was asking my doctor that because I should go for a walk every single morning outside and, you know, it's very, very bad. It's cloudy and stormy and stuff, but she's like, no, there's still low on vitamin D. So I'm like, all right, you know, but you know, speaking, speaking of some of these, these pills that we put in our mouth and capitalism, right? So I am, you know, I'm, I have so many conflicts with big pharma as well, because my drug of choice was prescription medications. And we all know about the, the decades long opioid epidemic and produce those assholes and whatever, but anyways, anyways, so just since getting sober, I try to limit the amount of pills I'm taking and everything, but I have been on antidepressants pretty much since I got sober, right? So, you know, I started with like Lexapro, went to Prozac. Most recently, my doctor put me on, well, butron and, you know, just because side effects and blah, blah, blah, blah. But I've, you know, in recent years, I've read a ton about just issues with over diagnosing, issues with over medicating and all that. So I'm curious, your thoughts or any advice for anybody listening, right? Because we have to worry about big pharma funding things and, and especially when I learned how they test these medications and sometimes it's funded by the company that's making it and, you know, whatever. But anyways, how do you, as a skeptic, make decisions about antidepressants or anti-anxiety medications and knowing that some of the studies might be flawed, some of them have high placebo effects and all that. And I'm, I've been asking for personal advice because I'm always conflicted about this. Yeah. I mean, so I, I share your concerns about the pharmaceutical industry. I'm always very upfront about that. I used to campaign against big pharma. When I was in my early 20s, I went door to door, working for a lobbying organization that was trying to improve Medicare to include prescription medication during the Bush administration. And so I have never been a friend of big pharma. However, when it comes to what medications I take, I, and this is a privileged position for me to be in, I find a doctor I trust and I do what they say. You know, and, and there's a big privilege. There are several, you know, one, you know, living in the United States, I have insurance coverage. I haven't always, but now I do. And so that's like number one. Number two is because I've usually had insurance coverage and I haven't had too many bad run-ins with doctors. I have the energy to advocate for myself and find a doctor that I like, you know. So this actually happened. I talk a little bit about my mental health history. When I was in college, I was working at the magic store, going to working full-time. I managed the magic store, the other manager was my boyfriend who I was living with and I was going to school full-time. And in my final semester, everything was going poorly. My classes were, you know, difficult and constantly running into scheduling conflicts, working full-time and going to school full-time. My relationship with my boyfriend was going down the toilet. He was a real piece of shit. And, and he was also my coworker, you know. And as a manager, like I suddenly had all these new responsibilities and like I was constantly just worried about, did I lock the door last night? Like did I, you know, did I count down the register properly? Just, just, I was, I would stay up all night just worrying about this stuff. And then I remember at one point I had to go to class but I had a stomach ache and it was so bad that I decided to drive to class even though it was just, you know, like a mile down the street. And I parked in front of the building and my stomach hurt so badly that I just curled up in the fetal position and for like an hour until I felt like I could drive home again. So I went to a doctor and the doctor's like, you have acid reflux. And I was like, oh, oh, okay. And he's like, yeah, it's just, you know, because I was like, I feel like I'm going like I'm in a roller coaster, you know, that feeling in your stomach when you go down a roller coaster, I was like, I get that like all the time. And he's like, yeah, that's acid reflux. So he put me on Prevacid, which back then was a prescription only thing. And, and it's, it's basically like a Harper medication, you know. So I started taking it and it worked. It fixed it. And I was like, sweet. So, and that doctor was actually like my family's doctor in New Jersey, I was living in Boston at the time. And I had just gone to see him like on a holiday. And so then I'm back in Boston. And I've run out of Prevacid. And so I'm like, okay, I finally need to like find a doctor here and see them regularly. So I pick a doctor that's in my network or whatever. And I go to see her and I explain the situation to her. And I'm like, so can I please get a prescription for Prevacid? And she says no, because like you're, I want to say anxiety, but at the time, like, I don't think the word anxiety ever even came into play, like stress. I think it was called stress. She says, stress doesn't cause acid reflux. What are you eating? What's your diet? And I'm like, she's like, do you eat a lot of oranges? Do you drink a lot of oranges? And I'm like, no, my diet hasn't changed at all in the last four years. It's just, you know, I'm pretty sure it's the stress. Can I please have, she's like, no, you need to go on this diet where you don't eat anything acidic. And I left and I just never went back. I don't think I saw a doctor for the next 10 years. And again, like the word anxiety never even showed up. So fast forward, I'm living in Buffalo, like 10 years later, and I start getting all these death threats from being a woman online. And it was really bad if your listeners want to look up Elevator Gate. That's what it was. But just nonstop harassment to the point where I was like crying all the time. I didn't want to go outside. I was a mess. And a friend had given me a, what's the stuff that Jordan Peterson got addicted to? Xanax. A friend had given me half of a Xanax once. And I thought that it was great. So I'm like, you know what I need? I need a Xanax. So I go to, I pick a random doctor in my network, go see him, and I explain what's happening. I was like, okay, so I have all this stress happening, and I'm starting to get these stomach aches again. So here's what I need from you. I need a prescription for previsit because this is acid reflux. And number two, I would love to have some Xanax because I took some Xanax before and it was great. And he just looks at me and he's like, first of all, previsit is available over the counter now. And I was like, what? Nice. And he's like, second of all, I've not given you Xanax. And I'm like, okay, then I'm just going to leave and never come back. He's like, hold on. I'm going to put you on eschatalopram, lexapro. And I was like, is this one of those things I got to take every day for the rest of my goddamn life? And he's like, yeah, and I'm like, and it's going to make me like a blank zombie. And he's like, no, the idea is that it's just going to stop, you have severe anxiety. I was like, what? And he's like, and probably depression. And I'm like, yeah, oh, is that what that is? He's like, yeah. So he's like, look, do me a favor, just take it for like six weeks. All right. And then come back and, and if you don't like it, we'll go up. I'll try to convince you to quit your job. He's like, I'm not quit my job. He's like, all right, just do this. I'm like, all right, man. So, and it was probably helped along by the fact that he looked like Richard Dreyfus, and it made me trust him more. So I went on the Lexapro and found to my delight that not only did it decrease the crying episodes, but I realized it solved a problem that I didn't know was a problem. I talk about this video. It is the fact that many nights I would just lay in bed and think about how I'm going to die one day, and there's nothing I can do about it, and how fucking depressing is that? And I just assumed that was the human condition. Like, how do you fix that? You can't. I'm going to die one day. But the pills fixed, you know, it would still pop into my head. You're going to die one day. Everybody knows going to die one day. And then I would think, I wonder what I'm going to have for breakfast tomorrow, because it nobody has helped by continuing to think about something that I can't change. You know, it was only making me miserable and leading to sleep loss. And once I was on the Lexapro, I was like, oh, that's not just a state of being that is me understanding reality better than everyone else. It's my fucked up brain focusing on something horrible instead of thinking about all the nice things that are happening in the world. Yeah, or things that I can actually change, you know. So I'm sorry, I've just been talking like nonstop. I enjoyed that story. So yeah, like I went back to the doctor and I explained this to him. I was like, it fixed the thing. I didn't even know it was the problem. I told him this story and he just looks at me and he's like, you really need to quit your job. I'm like, sorry, I'm an online atheist. This is how it is. And we had a he and I had this great relationship, you know, and and I trusted him. And so I've since moved and I've lucked into another great doctor who hears me out and you know, and again, that's that's luck. That's privilege. Not everybody has that. But if you have health insurance, and if you have the energy, which if you have depression and anxiety, there's a good chance you don't have that energy. If you can have if you have a friend or a family member who can help you, find a doctor who you can trust and then do what they say. Yeah, yeah, I can't express how much that helped me to with a with a good doctor because I hated doctors too. But my doctor she will she'll sit and just talk to me forever because you know, especially me being a recovering addict, she'll talk to me about the medications. Is there a possibility for addiction? I love hearing your story too, just because my experience with likes a pro was exactly the same. I didn't realize I didn't realize that I had a generalized anxiety disorder until after I got sober. I was like, Oh, this is what I've been self medicating. Right. And kind of like what you said, like I when I got on the medication and these medications affect all this differently and stuff. But for me, I could feel my brain trying to go to those anxious, ruminating thoughts. But it was like, nah, we're not going to do that. I'm like, that's pretty fucking awesome. I mentioned that that's another aspect of my luck and privilege is that the very first thing we tried worked perfectly for me with no like I do have the side effect of I occasionally get night sweats, which sucks. But but I've noticed that it's mostly when I drink. So I just have to like drink less. But yeah, like I'm very lucky and not most people are not that lucky. You have to try like several different things. And you know, I have some friends for whom, you know, they still they've tried everything and nothing has seemed to work, you know, and now they're on to like the experimental stuff. Yeah. You know, so it's hard. It's a hard journey. And it's made harder by the American healthcare system. Yeah. I was just having a conversation with another friend who moved to a different state and had to find a new doctor and ran into a little difficulty because she had all these questions and like the doctor just seemed to kind of cut her off and leave. And the receptionist afterwards was like, oh, did you want to schedule like a double appointment next time? And she's like, what do you mean? And she's like, well, we scheduled in 15 minute chunks. So do you want 30 minutes instead next time? And she's this was like the first time she was going to this doctor and she had like of like these injuries that needed therapy. So she had to like, you know, set up appointments with other doctors and stuff through this doctor. And 15 minutes, it's just not enough. And you know, what's the problem? Capitalism. Yeah. Yeah, that is, that is insane. And, and yeah, Rebecca, I know I got to let you go. But I have one last question just because we're talking about the privilege of, you know, having access to these things. Like, like I recently I got laid off like last month. And fortunately, I have like all my healthcare stuff, you know, in line because I plan ahead. That also helps my anxiety. But just real quick. So being a skeptic, right? Because so many people lack healthcare, it's difficult to, you know, get medications, go to therapy, whatever. There are so many like, I love reading books. And there are so many just smart people who have written books on evidence based treatments, like, you know, CBT, DBT, just so many things, right? So anyways, for people who don't have access to some of these things, what would you recommend to avoid some of the sham self help guru nonsense, but to help themselves if they can't afford to see a professional what, what are some things somebody shouldn't look out for if they're just trying to help themselves? That's a great question. So avoid anything that says homeopathy. A lot of people don't realize they think homeopathy is just natural ingredients. But it's not, it's all based on a scam and can be very bad for you. Like at best, it's just a placebo. And at worst, it's poorly regulated. It's sold by big pharma usually under different brand names. And sometimes they accidentally include ingredients in it that can screw you up or even kill you. So avoid homeopathy. In general, I would say avoid supplements and vitamins unless you have a doctor that's told you, you know, you have a deficiency. Otherwise, you're usually just going to pee out whatever it is. Again, at best, at worst, you can, you know, build up toxic levels of vitamin A, for instance, things like that. And avoid fads. You know, fad diets, I think have a, there's like another side of the coin with fad, healthy lifestyle stuff. When it comes down to it, I think it's pretty simple. And I think it's very beneficial to your health to, you know, try to eat fruits and vegetables. Eat a variety of foods, mostly plants. That's Michael Pollan's very good advice. Walk. Just go for a walk. Like I, it's so difficult, especially in a depressive state, to want to do any form of exercise. But a lot of people don't realize that just walking is an exercise that you can do. And when I find myself getting burned out from doom scrolling or whatever, you know, I'm lucky because I have a dog now. So I have a really good excuse to just take him for a walk. And it's incredible how much better I feel. And my brain refuses to acknowledge that that's going to happen. It's like, no, you're miserable now, you're going to be miserable out there, only it's also going to be unpleasantly warm or something, you know? But then once I do it, I'm like, Oh, I feel so much better just for having done this. So yeah, those are my recommendations, I guess. It sucks, though, because while diet and exercise have helped me immensely, I would be dead in a ditch if it weren't for the Lexapro, you know? So I think the other thing is to try to keep in mind that sometimes brains are just completely fucked up. And like no amount of non-pharmaceutical intervention is going to necessarily be a long term solution. And to forgive yourself for that, you know? So like if you do not have the option, the money, the time, the, you know, whatever to see a doctor and to get meds that work for you, tell yourself like it's okay to feel as shitty as you feel. It's not necessarily because of the choices you've made in life. Sometimes it's just like your brain is fucked. Yeah, exactly. And that's something that helped me out a lot. And I just, I accept it, I embrace it. I'll be like, hey, well, today's your day to lay in bed. But Rebecca, you're amazing. And one last piece of advice I'd give people is to check out your content because the way you look at research and studies and stuff, I think it'll help people, if they come across something and they're like, is this a fad? Just having the tools that you put out there. So for everybody who is unaware of your work and where to find you and just fell in love with you, where can they find you and keep up to date with everything? I follow you on Twitter, but maybe there's some other places. Yeah, I'm on Twitter at Rebecca Watson. I'm also on Patreon, patreon.com slash Rebecca, or you can also find all of my videos and also posts from other people at Skepchick. That's SKEPCHIK.org. And I think that's all of the major places to find me. Beautiful. Well, I will link all that stuff down in the description. And Rebecca, thank you so much for taking the time to come over and chat with me. I loved it. Thanks. I enjoyed this too.