 Hello and welcome to night two of Trans Plays of Remembrance. Thank you for watching with us. We'd also like to thank our sponsors, Ohio University LGBT Center, the Holland's University Theater Department, and the National Captioning Institute for providing live captions. Also, if you'd like more information or would like to get involved, you can find us at transplaysofremembrance.weebly.com. First up, we have a 10 minute play, 10 minutes from the crossing by Jesse Alana Robkin, starring Lily Haley, Vivian Ransom, and Amy Trowell. 10 minutes from the crossing, a short play by Jesse Alana Robkin, a hospital prep room very early morning, an ambient array of hospital noises are heard coming from offstage. A closed door that opens into the rest of the hospital is downstage right. Another closed door is positioned upstage left. A hospital gurney sits empty near the upstage center part of the room, facing the doorway to the rest of the hospital. An IV is set up near the gurney, but it is not currently attached to anything. A clock on the wall tells us it is six o'clock in the morning. Robin sits in a chair next to the gurney. Next to her sits a bag of clothes and a mask. She looks nervous. She checks her phone periodically, but there's nothing to see on its screen. Finally, a toilet flushes offstage. The upstage door opens revealing a restroom. Delilah steps out, and she's in the bathroom. She's dressed in a hospital gown and carrying her phone and her mask. A tube protrudes from her wrist. I was worried you'd be in there so long. You'd miss your procedure. It's not like they do it without me. No, I guess not. But I thought the whole point of those three days on the liquid diet, the 24 hours of fasting and that whole slew of laxatives yesterday was so that you wouldn't have to shit minutes before going in for the entire day. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Don't get me into the dark times, please. I'm trying to forget they ever happened. Right. I'm sorry. Besides I wasn't shitting. I was doing this. Delilah tosses her phone to Robin. Oh, babe. You like him. Wait, that's what you were doing there? Enjoy it while you can. These are the last new deal ever see of Delilah with a dick. hot. And I'm about to be even hotter. I am a lucky girl. Delilah leans over to kiss Robin. Robin kisses back. So would you like to see a few words in honor of our soon to be dearly departed soldier? Oh, of course, of course, let's see here. Lil D, you were a wonderful and faithful companion to my lover here and a devoted friend to me. I'll never forget the times we shared together, you and I. I wish you nothing but the best as you cross over into your next life as the vagina of the most beautiful girl I've ever known. I love you, Robin. What? Is this hard for you? It's what hard for me. It's okay if it is, you can tell me. Why are you bringing this up now? You look sad. Babe, please. I'm just trying to focus on how thrilled I am for you. I don't want to think about any of the rest of it, not right now. But it's clearly bothering you. I can't even blame you either. It's fucked. It's seriously fucked that this is how everything turns. Delilah, I'm serious. Now here I am just minutes away from the most terrifying momentous moment of my life, this crossing over into this whole other euphoric kind of life. And instead of me joining you on that other side, I'm going there alone. I'm leaving you on this one. Ouch. I'm sorry, that came out wrong. Is it really how you're going to think about this? You're crossing over to euphoria and you're leaving me here sad and alone? No, that's not. I mean, Jesus Christ, Babe, what a thing to drop on me at 6am the morning of your surgery. I didn't mean it to sound so harsh. Yes, I'm feeling pretty fucking sad that I'm still six months out from SRS when I was supposed to be six months post op at this point. No, I still haven't completely gotten over having the thing that I've wanted all my life snatched away from me at the last possible second by circumstances that are outside my control. And yes, despite all these complicated feelings that I'm dealing with right now, I'm still working really hard to just think about how happy I am for you and how I can be as useful as possible for you as you go through what I'm sure will be an incredibly difficult experience. Okay. I'm sorry. Can we talk about something else now, please? Yeah. Thank you. Delilah starts to break down in silent tears. Oh, wait, baby, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to yell at you. Delilah, please don't cry. It's not that. It's not? Okay, then what is it then? I'm really scared, Robin. Maybe there's nothing to be scared of, I promise. There's everything to be scared of. What if something goes wrong? Yes, I have a great surgeon, but what if she fucks up? Everyone makes mistakes sometimes. What if this is the one time she makes a mistake? And after the surgery when I'm supposed to be recovering? What if it's painful? What if it's too gross for me to look at? What if it heals wrong? What if I'm making a mistake doing this? What if I wake up a year from now and wish I hadn't done it? What if all of this is wrong? Delilah? They're still going backwards now. I'm here. I'm standing at the edge of this precipice that I knew was coming. I've known it was coming, but I've been trying not to think about it because every time I did, I got so nervous and I got vertigo and I have to go over that edge if I'm going to make it to the other side. But I'm so scared of falling and I haven't eaten anything in three days and I'm so tired and so hungry and so so so scared. Okay, okay Delilah, baby just just breathe, okay? Just take a deep breath. I can't. Robin squeezes Delilah tightly. Baby listen and they remember your exercises, okay? Name five things that you can see. Uh, uh, you. Yeah, good. Keep going. The chair, the bag of my stuff, the door to the bathroom. One more, one more. The clock. Good. And four things you can hear. You. The nurses in the hallway. The clock ticking. My stomach rumbling. Three things you can touch. You. My hospital gown. The bed. Okay, two things you can smell. You. The smell of the hospital. Good. And one thing you can taste. Delilah leans in and kisses Robin. You. Robin kisses Delilah back deeply. You are in the hands of one of the best doctors in the entire country. You know how badly you want this. You've done all your prep work. You've prepared for recovery. You're with your partner who loves you and who do literally anything necessary to bring you to the other side safely. I know everything is going to be okay. Eventually, maybe, but that doesn't mean the path to get to okay will be okay. No, it might not. Not all the time, but you don't have to worry about that now. Remember what the surgeon said when you told her how nervous you were in the conversation? Tell me what she said. She said, she said, there's no need to worry about the surgery part because I'm not the one doing it. I'm going to pass out in a few minutes and wake up with it all over without me having to lift a finger. That's right. And after surgery. After surgery, all I have to think about is recovery. It's just like anything else in life that you spend time and energy on. You just wake up and you do the things that you got to do that day to heal and then before you know it, you've strung together enough of these days that you've made it through to the other side. You've got a good surgeon. You will, too. When it's your turn. I'm looking forward to it. Delilah reaches out and squeezes Robin's hand. You know, it's crazy if you think about it. When we met at Jamie's housewarming party all those years ago, that first conversation we had, there was no way for us to ever imagine that. Four years later, we'd be here holding each other's hand at six a.m. and fucking rural New Jersey, a 10-minute drive from where George Washington crossed the Delaware, waiting for me to get my penis turned inside out. Can you imagine trying to tell 23-year-old us that? I could have believed it. Yeah. I knew from that first conversation that you were someone I'd be thrilled to do something like this with. If you told me this is where we'd end up four years later, I would have said I know. Minus the pandemic part that would have shocked me. I'm really sorry I brought up you being sad. It's okay. It was just so nervous. I thought if we were talking about you, if I was helping you feel better, I wouldn't have to think about how scared I felt. I completely understand. Okay. While we're imagining telling people in the past about what's happening in this moment, can you imagine trying to explain to George Washington that in 250 years, a hospital, a short horse ride away from his ambush of the British would become the site of literally thousands of gender confirmation surgeries for trans people? Trying to process all of that information would probably kill him on the spot. His brain would like short circuit or something. Someone knocks on the door to the rest of the hospital. Can I come in? Robin and Delilah quickly put on their masks. Come in. The door opens. A nurse enters followed by two assistants. The doctor is ready for you. How are we doing? Ready to go? I think so. Great. I'm just going to hook up your IV here then we'll roll you on back. The nurse hooks the IV up to the tube hanging out of Delilah's wrist. Robin? It's going to go great, Dee. I'll see you in just a few minutes on your run. I'll set. I love you. Delilah reaches out and squeezes Robin's hand again. I'll set. The nurse and the assistants wheel Delilah out. Robin watches them go. When the door closes, Robin is left alone. She looks down at the nudes, still visible on Delilah's phone in her hand. She stares at them, overcome with emotion. She looks around the room, her own silent tears falling down her face now. The nurse returns, opening the door, then jumps with a start when they see Robin is still in the room. Oh, I'm, I'm sorry. I should have not. Are you okay? Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm okay. Worried about her. No, no, she's, she's going to be great. It's just, I'm fine. Okay. I have to prepare the room for the next patient. Right, of course. I'm sorry. It's quite all right. Do you know how to get back to the waiting room? Yes, I've been that way before. Great. The nurse steps out of the way of the door. Robin drops Delilah's phone into the bag of clothes and stands. She looks around at the room one last time. I'll be back soon. I promise. Robin exits. End of play. Thanks y'all. All right. Our next piece is Trans Moses by Christian Liu. Christian Liu, she, they is a first generation Vietnamese American transgender performer and writer after graduating with a degree in musical theater from the University of Central Oklahoma. She performed in numerous productions and took a break from acting as they were going through a period of gender discovery. Now she prefers to focus on writing and performing her own work, which is literally iconic. Keep up on Instagram, Twitter, and Tik Tok at Christian D. Liu. Trans, trans, trans, Moses. Gee, I sure hope no one fucks me right now. I hope no one fucks me right now. Oh, I tripped. I hope no one fucks me. Wow, this skyscraper is so tall. I hope no one fucks me. I hope no one fucks me at UCB Hell's Kitchen. What a heavy book. I hope no one fucks me in the NYU library. I said, I hope no one fucks me at the NYU library. I hope no one fucks me while I see a ballet at Lincoln Center. Hope no one fucks me at the Louvre. Oh, I hope no one fucks me while I'm leaning against the tower of Pisa. Wow, the Easter Island heads are so big. I hope no one fucks me. Wow, I sure hope no one fucks me on the Titanic. Hope no one fucks me on the ocean floor. Well, I sure hope no one fucks me while I'm in this bar. Oh, Jesus. Stop. God. Trans, trans, trans, Moses. You look so good. Wow, thank you. You almost look like a real trans woman. Um, what did you say? You almost look like a real trans woman. So gorgeous. Is this supposed to be a compliment? Oh my God. Yes, you look like Laverne Cox or something. Are you kidding me? You are totally passing as trans. Do you think there's something wrong with looking trans? Well, no, but, um, so you agree. You think trans people are beautiful. So what's wrong with looking trans? Unless, of course, you think there's something inherently wrong with presenting as transgender and you're secretly harboring the belief that trans women can never experience beauty in the same way that cis women can, ultimately feeding into the narrative that trans women are not real women. No, um, that's just like it's not what I look like. Furthermore, denying that you could possibly be conceived as trans perpetuates the dangerous and violent idea that there are certain visual markers that you can identify trans people with. Is that what you want to perpetuate? Hello, earth to dazzling trans passing woman. Sorry. I was simultaneously learning and unlearning an entire lifetime of social and ethical norms. Where will we feel like a ray of sunshine, but trans, that's this, right? Actually, yes, I am. And so are you. And so are they. Every person on this planet looks like a transgender person. We interrupt this broadcast to give you breaking news of catastrophic The footage we are about to show you is beyond description. Be warned. If you have children or are faint of heart, the following may be too shocking for your precious little eyes. Never in my life have I set eyes on anything more abjectly revolting. Let's see that instant replay. Truly, truly an abomination, a cosmic mistake. Wait a second. I'm just receiving word that our man in the street, Chuck Johnson, is on the scene. Chuck, what are you seeing? Well, Dave, I'm currently not seeing anything because the very moment my sight met this galactic terror, I immediately and violently gouged out my own eyes. Let's cut to the live footage. I'm being told that what we're seeing is an ordinary citizen performing gender in a way that challenges our idea of a strict binary. But how can it be? Is it a boy? Or a girl? Or perhaps something much worse. Worse is definitely correct, Dave. The gender terrorist appears to be meandering through the aisles of Trader Joe's. It's really gross, man. I mean, fuck, there's kids here. There! God, not the children! I know! Uh, uh, hold it. Uh, oh, oh no. Right now? Dave, I'm being told that the gender-cital maniac is rounding the corner to this aisle. No! Where is it? Just look at the way it's going about its day, unbothered by the fact that it's got a skirt and a penis! A narrow brush with death. This is Chuck Johnson signing off to protect my masculinity. Do we get it? Awesome. That's a wrap. Awesome. Great. Uh, where are we going to launch after this? Trans, trans, trans, Mosas. They're representing the entire trans community. Yeah. Okay, great. Um, and now we are going to have a little conversation with me and, uh, Jesse Alonorobkin and Skoll McCommis. Hi. Hello. Hello. How are we doing? Doing well. Um, I think this is just kind of a free-form discussion. We can talk about anything that we want to. I've got like a couple of things written down here, but if there's anything that you want to start off right off the bat, discussing about doing theater and being trans and, uh, anything that you want to talk about, we can, we can do it. Okay. Well, starting off, we had, we were, uh, I think, talk, uh, Skoll and I were chatting earlier about, um, did writing or creating art become part of the process of you discovering your gender? Interesting. Skoll, do you want to go first? Yeah, I'm happy to. Um, Yes, it's great to meet you as well. Um, in my experience, it definitely feels like it has played a role in discovering my gender. However, I feel like that would come across as very confusing to people who are familiar with some of my previous work. Um, for instance, the last play that I had produced, which was now a couple of years ago because of the pandemic, was centered around a, uh, story with all women, um, and all women cast, and it was like celebrating the empowerment of, uh, specifically like chronically ill women and like how a lot of that resiliency came from, uh, the women that helped raise them. And this was written from a somewhat like personal lens, um, because I am chronically ill. It was also inspired a lot by, you know, a relationship I had with my grandmother, um, and a lot of the things that I learned from her. And now when I think about that play and who I was when I was writing it, I was very much a, like, heightened, then masked version of myself. Um, so this was a way for me to almost try and like really convince myself that that's who I was. And that's who I like wanted to be because that's who I thought I had to be. And it wasn't until, you know, time passed. And I went on my own gender journey that I was like, you know, it's still a great play that I'm proud of, but that is not where I see myself now. That's really interesting you say that. I feel like it's a very common thing for trans people, um, regardless of gender, to sort of lean into their assigned gender, like just before they come to the conclusion that, okay, I have to, you know, I have to make a change. It's not working. Um, you know, as far as like for trans women, you know, it's common for to see them like join the military or, uh, in my case, I joined a fraternity like the year before I was like, okay, no, I'm trans. So maybe it's almost like we're, you know, maybe we have, like, we haven't been trying hard enough or something like that. We just have to like work harder at it. Um, and then of course it never works. I was like in the best shape of my life right before coming out as trans guys, like maybe I just like haven't written like, you know, taking care of my body enough or something like that. And then, you know, six months of working out, you know, a year into being in a fraternity later, I was like, oh no, my, I'm still miserable. Like, you know, objectively look like maybe something like, you know, what I was shooting for and it didn't work and I'm still sad and I still have to make this change. The other thing too, I, uh, uh, it's interesting. I can't speak with like personal experience to this obviously as a trans woman, but, um, a close friend of mine in undergrad was a trans man. And I think, uh, he, he, he spoke a lot of justice. He was starting the, to like make the decision to start transitioning about one of the reasons he hesitated was because he was, he felt a lot of pride in being a woman, even though he didn't feel like he was a woman, you know, there, there were like, because of the way that like, like all women, cis or trans, uh, are oppressed, uh, there's a solidarity in, in womanhood that trans men, it sounded like based on his description, often would experience like leading up to, or even like up until it was like, okay, but I'm not happy as it, even if I'm, you know what I mean? So I don't know if that's something that rings true for your experience. That's, I'm glad that you brought that up. That feels, uh, very true, honestly. Yeah. Yeah, um, I, like, yeah, no, I, go ahead. Oh, no, I was just going to essentially repeat. Yeah. It's not like it's something that I hate. It's just not who I am. It's, um, you know, going back to, uh, the thing about you, you wrote that play as a way to try to convince yourself like I had a very similar experience. I call it my egg play. Um, for viewers who don't know an egg is a, is a term for a trans person who hasn't come out to themselves yet. And so I, you know, in a way of trying to convince myself that I wasn't trans, did all this research and I talked to trans women and I wrote this, what I now consider to be extremely cringe, uh, romcom with a trans lead whose name, character's name was Katie. Don't, don't tell anyone. And in, when I, when I wrote that, that play, people were asking like, uh, do you have something to tell us? Yeah, exactly. I was such a great ally, but you know, when, when, when I wrote this thinking I would, I would get it out of my system, you know, I would think like, okay, so I can like talk to actual trans women and realize that that's not who I am. And of course the opposite happened. Um, I, uh, okay. If, if there's nothing else on that. Oh, well, I, as far as like, in my case, writing, uh, was sort of a way of creating stories that I didn't, what didn't see existing around me. You know, I, I was an actor before I started transitioning. Um, and when I came out as trans, my, my school was very, uh, or what was like nominally very supportive of my transition. They, you know, I was able to change my name and all the, you know, records and stuff, but as soon as I told them I didn't want, that I wanted to stop auditioning as a man and I wanted to audition as a woman, they said, okay, well, okay, they let me do it, but then they stopped casting me in anything. Um, and they also didn't provide any like resources for how to, uh, better, uh, or more believably inhabit female roles. And then of course they didn't have any trans roles out there. So I was trying to place this people. Um, and so I, I turned to writing, not so much as a way to like explore my gender, although I'm sure that some of that has happened, but as a way to, uh, provide more opportunities, if not for myself than for trans actors who would come after me. Yeah. Um, really quick, we should introduce ourselves. We should have started with that. Oh, that's a good idea. Yeah. Um, I'm Katie Coleman. I'm a queer trans woman, uh, playwright and director in Chicago. I am Skoll McCommis. I am a queer non-binary writer in Seattle. Uh, and I'm Jesse Alana Roffkin. Uh, she, her pronouns, and I am a playwright, uh, and other, and other kinds of theater artists as well, uh, in Chicago. Cool. Uh, okay. Uh, is anything, anything in particular I can move on to the next topic I have here? Um, how do we spend our pandemics? What, and when specifically how do we think theater is possibly forever changed by the pandemic? Well, uh, I went in for, uh, gender confirmation surgery the day the pandemic started. So my first six months was spent recovering, uh, from that. Uh, and then the next six months was spent. I, I did a lot of writing. I, uh, you know, wrote, uh, a couple plays, full length plays, a couple short plays, and I mostly use that as an excuse. I basically was like, okay, well, if theater is not going to happen during this time period, at least I'm going to be creating something, but it wasn't always easy. I would have bursts of productivity and then bursts of, uh, the opposite of productivity. So I mean, two, two full length plays and short plays and they're in a, in a year is, is pretty good. I think you definitely may use your time better than I did. Yeah. Skull, did you, did you write anything or? Yeah, I was mostly writing poetry on my end over the pandemic. Um, just listening to a lot of music. Um, the entire time I was working at an essential business. So a lot of the time was spent around just like taking care of my health, making sure I was being safe and making sure that I was, uh, mentally in check as well, because it took, I mean, it takes a toll to work in an essential business right now. Yeah. Um, same. Uh, that's the most important part, right? Really? Like you have to take care of yourself first. I, um, I did not do great as far as writing goes. Um, when, when theaters stopped, I, I kind of stopped for a while too. I had a commission, something that I had to work on. So that really helped. Um, I have to have a deadline. But it was not a particularly creative time for me. I, um, I think that some of us are able to kind of channel that into creativity and, uh, and some aren't as, as theaters start to open up again. And we're seeing a lot of turnover and, uh, changes in artistic staff. Um, how do we think theater is going to, is going to be changed forever by this? And is it in a good way? Is it in a bad way? Do we think those changes are worthwhile? I think those changes are absolutely worthwhile if they are to help care for our chronically ill and disabled community who is still incredibly at risk. Yeah. Then though we are vaccinated, it's the vaccine's only about 70% effective for those of us who do live with chronic illness. Um, so I would like for, I would love to see theater to change in a direction where it is more accessible. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. I, yeah, I, I would like for it to change more than it seems to be changing right now. Um, it feels like there's this push among the establishment theater, uh, community or whatever, uh, to return to some sense of normalcy or some traditional version of what theater looks like. Um, I saw an article just a couple weeks ago about, uh, uh, that they said like the jury is out now and people do not like the virtual theater thing. And, and it just made me laugh because, um, I think the pandemic, when it came to theater, there was this opportunity to do something to, to, to, uh, reimagine what theater looks like that I think a lot of places, uh, took advantage of. But now that, you know, people, even if the pandemic's not over, people seem to think or want it to be over. Uh, there's this feels like pervasive belief among, uh, the powers that be in theater, uh, that wants everything back the way it was. And they're, you know, they're producing old plays again. They're doing everything in person. And there's this sort of like almost like an attempt to forget the last year ever happened. Absolutely. Yeah. It's, and there's a, there's a great deal of snobbery in that too. You know, like, you know, the, I think I was talking with, uh, with someone today about how, you know, what we've, we've created here with, uh, Zoom theater and theater that's, that's on the streamed in general is it's not tell them and it's not theater and it's basically a third art form and that there are people who are doing things on Zoom that they would be completely unable to do on in film or on, or on the stage because of the freedoms, um, get granted to them through a platform like this and poverty is one of those things. Chronic illness is another something that prevents people from both creating and going to the theater that we have, you know, there are still, um, there are still roadblocks in place such as reliable internet access, but other things are, are still available to, uh, to these people. Yeah. Yeah, it does seem like theater was more accessible in the last year for all, like, you know, uh, obviously virtual theater is not a perfected art form in any sense of the word, but, but, uh, the, it was more accessible in the last year than maybe it ever has been, um, which I think for an art form like the theater, which has traditionally been like a very community oriented, very much about like the people, uh, a form of storytelling that is that from its roots is meant to be the most accessible form of storytelling. It's such an elitist thing right now in this country that like, that makes it, you know, it's going to be the death of it, you know, if we know that problem. Yeah. And it has been for, you know, 50, 60, 2000 years. Um, it's the audience has it's increasingly older and, uh, upper class and, um, and dying out honestly and wider and wider. Absolutely. And the traditional theaters are continually trying to reach out to a younger, uh, still white, still rich audience and have only had men like success with that. So getting the, getting the rest of the world. Maybe if we just do another Arthur Miller play, exactly. Absolutely. Um, speaking of, uh, of bastions of, uh, of traditionalism in theater, um, I think, uh, Cameron McIntosh about a month ago had a, uh, a quote said, uh, talking about casting trans actors as a gimmick. Um, you can't implant something that is not inherently there in the story or character. That's what I think. Just to do that, that becomes gimmick casting. It's trying to force something that isn't natural. Uh, and this, of course, blew up on social media and lots of people. Had, uh, there was a whole, there was a whole march on Broadway organized by a black trans woman named Sis, who's an actor, uh, in New York City, um, about how we're not a gimmick. Notably Sis recently was cast as Ado Annie in the national touring production of, uh, Oklahoma. So very like intimately aware of what it's like to be a trans actor playing what it's traditionally been a cis character. Um, I mean, where do you even begin with that statement? If, if, okay. So if there aren't rules for trans actors and you don't want trans people to play cis characters, then what it sounds like you're saying is you don't want there to be trans actors period. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I get from that. Yeah. And also that quite simply being trans is unnatural is what I guess. Right. Exactly. Yeah. That's the sub, that's the sub slash super text of that. Or that we're some trend or something, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And oh, yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead. I was going to say the other thing that, that I've lost it. Sorry. No, you go. I was just going to say, and then there's, you know, there's like, there's complications involved in that. You know, obviously we want trans people to play trans characters on stage and in film and everything. And that's the bare minimum. But when it comes to trans actors playing cis actors, the idea is that it shouldn't be, it shouldn't be a barrier that, you know, a trans person is the gender that they say they are, and they should be able to play any part of that gender. But then there's something like the L word generation Q, the reboot where Jamie Clayton is this character and they had to point out halfway through that, oh, this character is cis. She's playing a cis character. And there was a lot of backlash to that because why couldn't the character have been trans? And that was considered an exclusion of a possibility for a trans character that was now an all cis cast of characters. Yeah. Well, it also the, that creates this assumption that unless you're specifically talking about how you're trans as like, if a character doesn't specifically talk about the fact that character is trans and script, then they must not be trans. But is that true of any other demographic? Absolutely. Right? Like, you know, yeah, especially in the theater, like, you know, it also paints the world, like if you're not going to cast trans actors in roles that don't explicitly say they are trans, it's just an unrealistic depiction of what the world looks like, you know? I often say like, I don't, I don't know what a room without a trans person in it looks like. So I can't even imagine it's so weird, you know, when you watch a story that like, that doesn't necessarily center like trans experience, everyone in this, even like all the background characters, it looks, it's not believable at all to someone like me who is, you know, who's never had that experience in my life, you know? Yeah. So what are we, what are we looking for as a, as the future of trans people in theater? What is the goal, I guess? I mean, I would love to start with, actually, I don't know if it has to start here, but more trans storytellers, like trans stories by trans writers, I also think, and I think maybe some, a lot of cis people might be afraid to do this, but more trans characters in stories, not by trans people. It shouldn't just be us who are writing these stories, and maybe I, maybe not everyone will agree with me on that, but it's, if it's only going to, if trans people are only going to show up in stories written by trans people, then that presumes that cis people don't know any trans people and don't know how to, you know, there should be some level of awareness of who we are or some degree of knowledge of our experience, even by people who aren't us, because that shows you're listening to us and you, you are like talking to us. And then, you know, no more, we can call it right now, no more cis actors playing trans characters, like, I don't know, what do you think? Then I think, oh yeah, go ahead. Oh yeah, I know, you were about to say something. No, I don't, no, you go ahead. We're all so polite. The nature of Zoom. Yeah, I was going to say that I think that something I would love to see is when there is a play about a, with a trans main character or written by a trans writer and forwarding a trans narrative that it's not about coming out and it's not about tragedy and it's not something that is, the character can be more than trans and I think that's just a, it's a growing process, you know, the foot in the door has to be centering the narrative on this trans person and their journey with being trans. And the next step is a story about something where the characters happen to be trans. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was actually slightly related to what you were saying. I was thinking earlier today about all of the plays that I've written and how so much of what I've written comes from, it's inspired by personal experience or just weird stories that I was reading. And I was thinking about the plays that might have like contributed to my journey to figure out my gender. And I kept coming back to the, these two plays that I wrote about Mike the Headless Chicken. I don't know if you all are familiar with. It sounds familiar. Yeah. You may have told me about it before, actually. I probably did. I probably did. It's a weird fascination that I have. But all of that to say I feel like, wait, hold on, tell us about Mike the Headless Chicken. Oh, dear God. I want to know. Mike the Headless Chicken was a chicken who lived for, I'm going to name the wrong amount of time right now, but I think it was over a year. It was over a year after its head was cut off. It lived for that long. And these people kept it alive. What's that? In real life. No, in real life. Oh my God. And these people kept it alive by like feeding it through a little dropper. Like just down the neck? Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. So that's Mike the Headless Chicken as a character that's very beloved to me for some reason. And I was thinking about how everything that I've ever written comes from me. So it comes from this voice that has all of these inputs, like my gender and my illness and all of these things. And weirdly, I feel like maybe for a time I identified with Mike the Headless Chicken because what is this thing that was assigned to me? What am I doing here? Why am I playing this role if it doesn't feel like it fits? Sure. Running around. Yeah. I think, I think identification with, you know, the weirdo like outcast and not to mention monsterism as well. Like Frankenstein is trans as hell, right? That is very common among the trans experience and it's these kinds of experiences and associations that I think make us good writers. I don't know. I certainly think so. I agree. Oh yeah. Yeah. That is all of the topics that I had written down. Is there anything, any of you want to bring up? I can't think of anything off the top of my head. All right. Vivian or Lily, do you want to join us? Anything that you want to discuss for a minute or are we good? I'm good. Okay. All right. I think that is all. Thank you to everyone for participating. Thanks for watching and we will see you tomorrow. Thank you, Katie. Bye everyone. Thank you.